Buying new digital camera

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Jake29, Jun 29, 2013.

  1. Jake29

    nospam Guest

    In article <>, Tony Cooper
    <> wrote:

    > On Sun, 30 Jun 2013 23:05:52 -0400, nospam <>
    > wrote:
    >
    > >In article <>, Tony Cooper
    > ><> wrote:
    > >
    > >> Even finding a camera store can be a problem. Orlando's a fairly big
    > >> town, but there are only two camera stores in town, and one of them
    > >> carries only high-end compact cameras. The larger store carries a
    > >> wide selection, but their point and shoots are behind the counter and
    > >> not connected to chargers or power supplies. They take the batteries
    > >> out of all their display cameras (P&S and DSLR) and put them in only
    > >> when demonstrating them. Sometimes you have to wait for a battery to
    > >> be available if it's a proprietary battery because other clerks are
    > >> using them.

    > >
    > >sounds like two stores that are destined to be history.
    > >
    > >> Also, this store is closed on Sunday, closed at 7:30 M-T, until 9 on
    > >> Friday, and 6 on Saturday.

    > >
    > >those hours aren't that unusual, but soon it will be closed every day.

    >
    > Well, the larger store has been in business since 1954 and is the
    > largest camera store in Central Florida, maybe in a larger area. At
    > the camera counter, there are usually at least six experienced clerks
    > working whenever you go in there. The 15,000 square feet of space is
    > divided about half-and-half between photography equipment and hobby
    > items from model railroad trains to radio controlled model cars,
    > boats, and airplanes. They also do matting and framing.


    so they're not just a camera store.

    being in business for 60 years doesn't mean much. a lot of long time
    camera stores have shut down, failing to make the transition to
    digital.

    > The smaller store has been here since I moved to the area 35 years
    > ago, but I don't know how long they'd been in business by then. They
    > also operate a school of photography.


    that's more than the typical camera store does. that might be all
    they're doing in the future.

    > Both are active sponsors of the local camera clubs and routinely bring
    > in new camera products to show. Both have outlasted Ritz, Wolfe, and
    > several independent camera dealers who have all gone bye-bye.


    most camera stores are going bye bye. people buy online and print at
    home, if they print at all.

    > While they both sell the lower tier point-and-shoots, both stores seem
    > to have let the big box stores go for that market. Both sell cameras
    > and accessories that are not available at the big box stores.


    that might be a good strategy, but if they treat their customers the
    way you described, they're not going to have returning customers.
    nospam, Jul 1, 2013
    #21
    1. Advertising

  2. Jake29

    Tony Cooper Guest

    On Mon, 01 Jul 2013 00:36:37 -0400, nospam <>
    wrote:

    >In article <>, Tony Cooper
    ><> wrote:
    >
    >> On Sun, 30 Jun 2013 23:05:52 -0400, nospam <>
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >> >In article <>, Tony Cooper
    >> ><> wrote:
    >> >
    >> >> Even finding a camera store can be a problem. Orlando's a fairly big
    >> >> town, but there are only two camera stores in town, and one of them
    >> >> carries only high-end compact cameras. The larger store carries a
    >> >> wide selection, but their point and shoots are behind the counter and
    >> >> not connected to chargers or power supplies. They take the batteries
    >> >> out of all their display cameras (P&S and DSLR) and put them in only
    >> >> when demonstrating them. Sometimes you have to wait for a battery to
    >> >> be available if it's a proprietary battery because other clerks are
    >> >> using them.
    >> >
    >> >sounds like two stores that are destined to be history.
    >> >
    >> >> Also, this store is closed on Sunday, closed at 7:30 M-T, until 9 on
    >> >> Friday, and 6 on Saturday.
    >> >
    >> >those hours aren't that unusual, but soon it will be closed every day.

    >>
    >> Well, the larger store has been in business since 1954 and is the
    >> largest camera store in Central Florida, maybe in a larger area. At
    >> the camera counter, there are usually at least six experienced clerks
    >> working whenever you go in there. The 15,000 square feet of space is
    >> divided about half-and-half between photography equipment and hobby
    >> items from model railroad trains to radio controlled model cars,
    >> boats, and airplanes. They also do matting and framing.

    >
    >so they're not just a camera store.


    Right. Everyone knows the HO gauge train market dwarfs the DSLR
    business. That's all that's keeping the lights turned on.
    >
    >being in business for 60 years doesn't mean much. a lot of long time
    >camera stores have shut down, failing to make the transition to
    >digital.
    >
    >> The smaller store has been here since I moved to the area 35 years
    >> ago, but I don't know how long they'd been in business by then. They
    >> also operate a school of photography.

    >
    >that's more than the typical camera store does. that might be all
    >they're doing in the future.
    >
    >> Both are active sponsors of the local camera clubs and routinely bring
    >> in new camera products to show. Both have outlasted Ritz, Wolfe, and
    >> several independent camera dealers who have all gone bye-bye.

    >
    >most camera stores are going bye bye. people buy online and print at
    >home, if they print at all.
    >
    >> While they both sell the lower tier point-and-shoots, both stores seem
    >> to have let the big box stores go for that market. Both sell cameras
    >> and accessories that are not available at the big box stores.

    >
    >that might be a good strategy, but if they treat their customers the
    >way you described, they're not going to have returning customers.


    Well, you know best. All I've got is an undergraduate degree in
    Marketing, an MBA, and years of owning and running a multi-million
    dollar business. You, though, can get on an airplane, swiftly glance
    down the aisles, count the laptops by brand, and come up with better
    national market share projections than the experts by ten or twelve
    points. And not even wrinkle your cape.

    I am confused, though. The bigger store is always crowded with
    customers. All six clerks are usually busy with a customer. The
    high-end Canons and Nikons are being rung up all the time. The four
    aisles of camera bags don't seem dusty so it appears there's
    turn-over. All that lighting equipment, tripods and other accessories
    seem to move. Is it all smoke and mirrors?

    They're losing sales of $100 point-and-shoots to the big box stores,
    and that must be where the money is. Right? They shouldn't be
    concentrating on $1,000 Gitzmo tripods when they could be selling a GE
    point-and-shoot for $49.00. Right? They shouldn't be following this
    DSLR fad thing, right?

    They should be cultivating people like this guy upgrading from a Kodak
    Easy-Share to a $200 pocket camera. Right? They shouldn't be
    catering to the pros and the well-heeled amateurs who keep buying
    lenses and stuff. Make 'em wait while the clerk goes through the pet
    and fireworks setting comparisons with 8 different point-and-shoots.
    Right?

    How long have they got? Can you do a fly-over and let me know? I
    want to go to their going-out-of-business sale.











    --
    Tony Cooper - Orlando FL
    Tony Cooper, Jul 1, 2013
    #22
    1. Advertising

  3. Jake29

    nospam Guest

    In article <>, Tony Cooper
    <> wrote:

    > I am confused, though. The bigger store is always crowded with
    > customers. All six clerks are usually busy with a customer. The
    > high-end Canons and Nikons are being rung up all the time. The four
    > aisles of camera bags don't seem dusty so it appears there's
    > turn-over. All that lighting equipment, tripods and other accessories
    > seem to move. Is it all smoke and mirrors?


    ritz camera stores were often busy too and look what happened there.

    even best buy is having troubles. every time i've been in a best buy
    there's always been a line at the registers, so how could they be in
    such financial difficulty?

    could it be there's more to it than seeing cashiers ring up items? why
    yes, it could.

    > They're losing sales of $100 point-and-shoots to the big box stores,
    > and that must be where the money is. Right? They shouldn't be
    > concentrating on $1,000 Gitzmo tripods when they could be selling a GE
    > point-and-shoot for $49.00. Right? They shouldn't be following this
    > DSLR fad thing, right?


    people buy online now.

    do they offer anything beyond handing you a box? if not, it's soon to
    be curtain time. if they do, then more power to them. the only way
    stores will stay in business is to offer additional value over the
    internet sellers.

    the way you described it, with leaving the batteries out from the
    display cameras, is not a way to win customers. that's why i said they
    won't last long.
    nospam, Jul 1, 2013
    #23
  4. Jake29

    Martin Brown Guest

    On 29/06/2013 21:04, Jake29 wrote:
    > I lost the digital camera that I had and I need to buy a new one.
    >
    > The one I had was a Kodak-something (I forget the model number), and the one
    > that I had before that was a Kodak EasyShare V1253. I lost the last one
    > and the V1253 died on me for some reason.
    >
    > Both cameras were point-and-shoot digital cameras. Both had fairly high
    > megapixels and a fairly high zoom. What I liked about both of them is that
    > they both had rechargeable Li-Ion batteries that lasted a long time on each
    > charge -- a feature that I definitely want.
    >
    > It looks like Kodak is out of the digital camera business, so apparently I
    > can't buy another Kodak digital camera. If I could, I would.
    >
    > So, I am looking for suggestions of a new point-and-shoot digital camera. I
    > definitely don't want one that uses AA batteries (rechargeable or not) as
    > many of them seem to do these days -- I want one with a rechargeable Li-Ion
    > battery.
    >
    > I like the plain flat version of digital cameras that I can just keep in my
    > pocket; not the bigger size cameras that are out there. I am expecting the
    > cost to be less that about $200. If it has the right battery type
    > (rechargeable Li-Ion), a fairly high megapixel rating, and a fairly high
    > optical zoom, that would be great.
    >
    > I don't do any fancy or professional picture taking -- mostly just people
    > and events that I go to (birthday parties, etc.). I do use a camera a lot
    > for taking photos of construction work in progress while rehabbing
    > properties that I own -- to record wiring, plumbing, etc. before the walls
    > are closed up etc.


    One thing to consider for casual photography is whether or not your
    mobile phone is already adequate for the task. Many of them are these
    days if you don't need a powerful flash or wide optical zoom range.
    >
    > I am looking for any suggestions that people here may have regarding which
    > brand and model camera to buy.
    >
    > I will read all replies and will follow up here with more info etc. if
    > needed.


    I would probably recommend one of the Canon Ixus series for an always
    carry camera that is capable and physically small. eg

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Canon-IXUS-...=1372677017&sr=1-2&keywords=canon ixus camera

    Or a Lumix for something bigger and more capable at 10x zoom:

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Panasonic-D...8&qid=1372677268&sr=1-4&keywords=Lumix camera

    Both of these will also do HD video (mine runs hot doing video capture).

    That one is physically small but there are others inside you budget that
    are bigger and even more capable. Amazon and/or TrustedReviews isn't a
    bad place to look to get an idea what specs and quirks they have. You
    have to remember that customer reviews can be unreliable.

    Most these days don't provide an optical viewfinder (and they are tricky
    to do for a wide range zoom or macro capable camera anyway). This LCD
    only mode can be a nuisance outside in strong sunlight.

    I am sufficiently old school to miss a viewfinder. YMMV

    --
    Regards,
    Martin Brown
    Martin Brown, Jul 1, 2013
    #24
  5. Jake29

    J. Clarke Guest

    In article <>, tonycooper214
    @gmail.com says...
    >
    > On Mon, 01 Jul 2013 00:36:37 -0400, nospam <>
    > wrote:
    >
    > >In article <>, Tony Cooper
    > ><> wrote:
    > >
    > >> On Sun, 30 Jun 2013 23:05:52 -0400, nospam <>
    > >> wrote:
    > >>
    > >> >In article <>, Tony Cooper
    > >> ><> wrote:
    > >> >
    > >> >> Even finding a camera store can be a problem. Orlando's a fairly big
    > >> >> town, but there are only two camera stores in town, and one of them
    > >> >> carries only high-end compact cameras. The larger store carries a
    > >> >> wide selection, but their point and shoots are behind the counter and
    > >> >> not connected to chargers or power supplies. They take the batteries
    > >> >> out of all their display cameras (P&S and DSLR) and put them in only
    > >> >> when demonstrating them. Sometimes you have to wait for a battery to
    > >> >> be available if it's a proprietary battery because other clerks are
    > >> >> using them.
    > >> >
    > >> >sounds like two stores that are destined to be history.
    > >> >
    > >> >> Also, this store is closed on Sunday, closed at 7:30 M-T, until 9 on
    > >> >> Friday, and 6 on Saturday.
    > >> >
    > >> >those hours aren't that unusual, but soon it will be closed every day.
    > >>
    > >> Well, the larger store has been in business since 1954 and is the
    > >> largest camera store in Central Florida, maybe in a larger area. At
    > >> the camera counter, there are usually at least six experienced clerks
    > >> working whenever you go in there. The 15,000 square feet of space is
    > >> divided about half-and-half between photography equipment and hobby
    > >> items from model railroad trains to radio controlled model cars,
    > >> boats, and airplanes. They also do matting and framing.

    > >
    > >so they're not just a camera store.

    >
    > Right. Everyone knows the HO gauge train market dwarfs the DSLR
    > business. That's all that's keeping the lights turned on.
    > >
    > >being in business for 60 years doesn't mean much. a lot of long time
    > >camera stores have shut down, failing to make the transition to
    > >digital.
    > >
    > >> The smaller store has been here since I moved to the area 35 years
    > >> ago, but I don't know how long they'd been in business by then. They
    > >> also operate a school of photography.

    > >
    > >that's more than the typical camera store does. that might be all
    > >they're doing in the future.
    > >
    > >> Both are active sponsors of the local camera clubs and routinely bring
    > >> in new camera products to show. Both have outlasted Ritz, Wolfe, and
    > >> several independent camera dealers who have all gone bye-bye.

    > >
    > >most camera stores are going bye bye. people buy online and print at
    > >home, if they print at all.
    > >
    > >> While they both sell the lower tier point-and-shoots, both stores seem
    > >> to have let the big box stores go for that market. Both sell cameras
    > >> and accessories that are not available at the big box stores.

    > >
    > >that might be a good strategy, but if they treat their customers the
    > >way you described, they're not going to have returning customers.

    >
    > Well, you know best. All I've got is an undergraduate degree in
    > Marketing, an MBA, and years of owning and running a multi-million
    > dollar business. You, though, can get on an airplane, swiftly glance
    > down the aisles, count the laptops by brand, and come up with better
    > national market share projections than the experts by ten or twelve
    > points. And not even wrinkle your cape.
    >
    > I am confused, though. The bigger store is always crowded with
    > customers. All six clerks are usually busy with a customer. The
    > high-end Canons and Nikons are being rung up all the time. The four
    > aisles of camera bags don't seem dusty so it appears there's
    > turn-over. All that lighting equipment, tripods and other accessories
    > seem to move. Is it all smoke and mirrors?
    >
    > They're losing sales of $100 point-and-shoots to the big box stores,
    > and that must be where the money is. Right? They shouldn't be
    > concentrating on $1,000 Gitzmo tripods when they could be selling a GE
    > point-and-shoot for $49.00. Right? They shouldn't be following this
    > DSLR fad thing, right?
    >
    > They should be cultivating people like this guy upgrading from a Kodak
    > Easy-Share to a $200 pocket camera. Right? They shouldn't be
    > catering to the pros and the well-heeled amateurs who keep buying
    > lenses and stuff. Make 'em wait while the clerk goes through the pet
    > and fireworks setting comparisons with 8 different point-and-shoots.
    > Right?
    >
    > How long have they got? Can you do a fly-over and let me know? I
    > want to go to their going-out-of-business sale.


    While agree with you to an extent, echoing in the back of my mind is
    "Sell to the classes, you live with the masses, sell to the masses, you
    live with the classes".
    J. Clarke, Jul 1, 2013
    #25
  6. Jake29

    Tony Cooper Guest

    On Mon, 01 Jul 2013 02:37:48 -0400, nospam <>
    wrote:

    >In article <>, Tony Cooper
    ><> wrote:
    >
    >> I am confused, though. The bigger store is always crowded with
    >> customers. All six clerks are usually busy with a customer. The
    >> high-end Canons and Nikons are being rung up all the time. The four
    >> aisles of camera bags don't seem dusty so it appears there's
    >> turn-over. All that lighting equipment, tripods and other accessories
    >> seem to move. Is it all smoke and mirrors?

    >
    >ritz camera stores were often busy too and look what happened there.
    >
    >even best buy is having troubles. every time i've been in a best buy
    >there's always been a line at the registers, so how could they be in
    >such financial difficulty?


    Best Buy's problems stem from their inability to compete with online
    sales because their store prices are higher than some online outfits
    and the stores don't offer offsetting advantages to the buyer. Part
    of this is due to their staff not being considered helpful to
    customers.

    The camera store in my example does offer offsetting advantages: an
    experienced and knowledgeable sales staff and a comprehensive
    inventory of a wide range of camera equipment.

    Best Buy is also so diversified in their product line that a downturn
    in one group of products can affect the numbers. They devote (at
    least in the store in my area) a large amount of floorspace to music
    and video, and that's a product line that is trending more and more to
    online purchases. The camera store's floorspace is devoted to only
    two markets: photography and hobbyists.

    Best Buy's problems are also due to stockholder's expectations of
    return and growth. The privately-owned camera store needs to make no
    decisions based on outsiders.

    Best Buy's problems are also attributable to their problems in their
    non-US stores. The overseas market is not responding as well as the
    domestic market.

    But, as an expert in everything to do with market share, you know all
    this. I don't know why I'm bothering to tell you.


    >could it be there's more to it than seeing cashiers ring up items? why
    >yes, it could.
    >
    >> They're losing sales of $100 point-and-shoots to the big box stores,
    >> and that must be where the money is. Right? They shouldn't be
    >> concentrating on $1,000 Gitzmo tripods when they could be selling a GE
    >> point-and-shoot for $49.00. Right? They shouldn't be following this
    >> DSLR fad thing, right?

    >
    >people buy online now.


    Yes, they do. Also, people buy from brick and mortar stores. An
    unqualified statement like yours means nothing.

    >do they offer anything beyond handing you a box? if not, it's soon to
    >be curtain time. if they do, then more power to them. the only way
    >stores will stay in business is to offer additional value over the
    >internet sellers.
    >
    >the way you described it, with leaving the batteries out from the
    >display cameras, is not a way to win customers. that's why i said they
    >won't last long.


    The behind-the-counter cameras are there without batteries. There are
    no on-counter cameras. When the customer is handed a display camera,
    the battery is added. Sometimes there is a delay because the needed
    batteries are in use by another clerk, but the potential buyer of a
    higher-end DSLR is not put off by this.
    --
    Tony Cooper - Orlando FL
    Tony Cooper, Jul 1, 2013
    #26
  7. Jake29

    Jake29 Guest

    Robert Coe wrote:
    > On Sat, 29 Jun 2013 16:54:25 -0400, Tony Cooper
    > <> wrote:
    >> On Sat, 29 Jun 2013 16:04:52 -0400, "Jake29" <>
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >>> I lost the digital camera that I had and I need to buy a new one.
    >>> ...
    >>>
    >>> So, I am looking for suggestions of a new point-and-shoot digital
    >>> camera. I definitely don't want one that uses AA batteries
    >>> (rechargeable or not) as many of them seem to do these days -- I
    >>> want one with a rechargeable Li-Ion battery.


    >> I disagree with your preference about AA batteries, but it's your
    >> camera and your money. My in-the-car point-and-shoot (my regular
    >> camera is a Nikon DSLR) uses rechargeable AA batteries and shoots RAW
    >> and has manual settings. I like the idea that if I haven't used it
    >> for a while, and the batteries are flat, I can buy regular AA
    >> batteries at any store and use them. If my Nikon Li-Ion battery goes
    >> flat, I have to go home to charge it. (Well, *I* don't, but I have
    >> three batteries and always carry charged spares.)


    > Something I was reminded of the other day when I was charging my
    > batteries for a shoot: All my AAs (I keep about 50 in play) needed at
    > least some charging time, even if they hadn't been used since their
    > last charge. But three proprietary camera batteries that had been
    > sitting outside the camera showed full charge after less than 15
    > seconds on the charger. Pretty clearly, those batteries hold a charge
    > better than the AAs do.


    Although I have limited experience with this, that is the experience that I
    had in the past when I first bought digital cameras (before the two that I
    mentioned in my original post). My experience was that the rechargeable AA
    batteries lasted only a very short time before needing to be recharged, and
    any batteries that I had fully charged were basically dead by the time I got
    around to trying to take a picture. At first, I thought the problem was the
    camera technology may have been such that the cameras used up way too much
    battery power. But, that didn't explain why the spare fully charged AA
    batteries that I kept separately in the camera case were dead when I got
    around to putting them in the camera. Meanwhile, I started to notice that
    my then little-kid niece and nephew who were using Kodak digital cameras
    could take picture after picture seemingly forever without the batteries
    going dead. That's when I switched to Kodak cameras which I discovered had
    with Li-Ion batteries.

    After I switched to cameras with the Li-Ion batteries, I noticed that when I
    charged them and didn't use them for a long time, and then went to use them,
    they were still charged and ready to use.

    So, I guess that is where I developed a prejudice against the AA
    rechargeable batteries.
    Jake29, Jul 1, 2013
    #27
  8. Jake29

    Tony Cooper Guest

    On Mon, 1 Jul 2013 10:06:47 -0400, "J. Clarke" <>
    wrote:

    >In article <>, tonycooper214
    >@gmail.com says...
    >>
    >> On Mon, 01 Jul 2013 00:36:37 -0400, nospam <>
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >> >In article <>, Tony Cooper
    >> ><> wrote:
    >> >
    >> >> On Sun, 30 Jun 2013 23:05:52 -0400, nospam <>
    >> >> wrote:
    >> >>
    >> >> >In article <>, Tony Cooper
    >> >> ><> wrote:
    >> >> >
    >> >> >> Even finding a camera store can be a problem. Orlando's a fairly big
    >> >> >> town, but there are only two camera stores in town, and one of them
    >> >> >> carries only high-end compact cameras. The larger store carries a
    >> >> >> wide selection, but their point and shoots are behind the counter and
    >> >> >> not connected to chargers or power supplies. They take the batteries
    >> >> >> out of all their display cameras (P&S and DSLR) and put them in only
    >> >> >> when demonstrating them. Sometimes you have to wait for a battery to
    >> >> >> be available if it's a proprietary battery because other clerks are
    >> >> >> using them.
    >> >> >
    >> >> >sounds like two stores that are destined to be history.
    >> >> >
    >> >> >> Also, this store is closed on Sunday, closed at 7:30 M-T, until 9 on
    >> >> >> Friday, and 6 on Saturday.
    >> >> >
    >> >> >those hours aren't that unusual, but soon it will be closed every day.
    >> >>
    >> >> Well, the larger store has been in business since 1954 and is the
    >> >> largest camera store in Central Florida, maybe in a larger area. At
    >> >> the camera counter, there are usually at least six experienced clerks
    >> >> working whenever you go in there. The 15,000 square feet of space is
    >> >> divided about half-and-half between photography equipment and hobby
    >> >> items from model railroad trains to radio controlled model cars,
    >> >> boats, and airplanes. They also do matting and framing.
    >> >
    >> >so they're not just a camera store.

    >>
    >> Right. Everyone knows the HO gauge train market dwarfs the DSLR
    >> business. That's all that's keeping the lights turned on.
    >> >
    >> >being in business for 60 years doesn't mean much. a lot of long time
    >> >camera stores have shut down, failing to make the transition to
    >> >digital.
    >> >
    >> >> The smaller store has been here since I moved to the area 35 years
    >> >> ago, but I don't know how long they'd been in business by then. They
    >> >> also operate a school of photography.
    >> >
    >> >that's more than the typical camera store does. that might be all
    >> >they're doing in the future.
    >> >
    >> >> Both are active sponsors of the local camera clubs and routinely bring
    >> >> in new camera products to show. Both have outlasted Ritz, Wolfe, and
    >> >> several independent camera dealers who have all gone bye-bye.
    >> >
    >> >most camera stores are going bye bye. people buy online and print at
    >> >home, if they print at all.
    >> >
    >> >> While they both sell the lower tier point-and-shoots, both stores seem
    >> >> to have let the big box stores go for that market. Both sell cameras
    >> >> and accessories that are not available at the big box stores.
    >> >
    >> >that might be a good strategy, but if they treat their customers the
    >> >way you described, they're not going to have returning customers.

    >>
    >> Well, you know best. All I've got is an undergraduate degree in
    >> Marketing, an MBA, and years of owning and running a multi-million
    >> dollar business. You, though, can get on an airplane, swiftly glance
    >> down the aisles, count the laptops by brand, and come up with better
    >> national market share projections than the experts by ten or twelve
    >> points. And not even wrinkle your cape.
    >>
    >> I am confused, though. The bigger store is always crowded with
    >> customers. All six clerks are usually busy with a customer. The
    >> high-end Canons and Nikons are being rung up all the time. The four
    >> aisles of camera bags don't seem dusty so it appears there's
    >> turn-over. All that lighting equipment, tripods and other accessories
    >> seem to move. Is it all smoke and mirrors?
    >>
    >> They're losing sales of $100 point-and-shoots to the big box stores,
    >> and that must be where the money is. Right? They shouldn't be
    >> concentrating on $1,000 Gitzmo tripods when they could be selling a GE
    >> point-and-shoot for $49.00. Right? They shouldn't be following this
    >> DSLR fad thing, right?
    >>
    >> They should be cultivating people like this guy upgrading from a Kodak
    >> Easy-Share to a $200 pocket camera. Right? They shouldn't be
    >> catering to the pros and the well-heeled amateurs who keep buying
    >> lenses and stuff. Make 'em wait while the clerk goes through the pet
    >> and fireworks setting comparisons with 8 different point-and-shoots.
    >> Right?
    >>
    >> How long have they got? Can you do a fly-over and let me know? I
    >> want to go to their going-out-of-business sale.

    >
    >While agree with you to an extent, echoing in the back of my mind is
    >"Sell to the classes, you live with the masses, sell to the masses, you
    >live with the classes".


    There must be an adage around that says something about trying to
    compete with the big boys and abandoning what works.

    --
    Tony Cooper - Orlando FL
    Tony Cooper, Jul 1, 2013
    #28
  9. Jake29

    Tony Cooper Guest

    On Mon, 1 Jul 2013 10:19:00 -0400, "Jake29" <>
    wrote:

    >Robert Coe wrote:
    >> On Sat, 29 Jun 2013 16:54:25 -0400, Tony Cooper
    >> <> wrote:
    >>> On Sat, 29 Jun 2013 16:04:52 -0400, "Jake29" <>
    >>> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> I lost the digital camera that I had and I need to buy a new one.
    >>>> ...
    >>>>
    >>>> So, I am looking for suggestions of a new point-and-shoot digital
    >>>> camera. I definitely don't want one that uses AA batteries
    >>>> (rechargeable or not) as many of them seem to do these days -- I
    >>>> want one with a rechargeable Li-Ion battery.

    >
    >>> I disagree with your preference about AA batteries, but it's your
    >>> camera and your money. My in-the-car point-and-shoot (my regular
    >>> camera is a Nikon DSLR) uses rechargeable AA batteries and shoots RAW
    >>> and has manual settings. I like the idea that if I haven't used it
    >>> for a while, and the batteries are flat, I can buy regular AA
    >>> batteries at any store and use them. If my Nikon Li-Ion battery goes
    >>> flat, I have to go home to charge it. (Well, *I* don't, but I have
    >>> three batteries and always carry charged spares.)

    >
    >> Something I was reminded of the other day when I was charging my
    >> batteries for a shoot: All my AAs (I keep about 50 in play) needed at
    >> least some charging time, even if they hadn't been used since their
    >> last charge. But three proprietary camera batteries that had been
    >> sitting outside the camera showed full charge after less than 15
    >> seconds on the charger. Pretty clearly, those batteries hold a charge
    >> better than the AAs do.

    >
    >Although I have limited experience with this, that is the experience that I
    >had in the past when I first bought digital cameras (before the two that I
    >mentioned in my original post). My experience was that the rechargeable AA
    >batteries lasted only a very short time before needing to be recharged, and
    >any batteries that I had fully charged were basically dead by the time I got
    >around to trying to take a picture. At first, I thought the problem was the
    >camera technology may have been such that the cameras used up way too much
    >battery power. But, that didn't explain why the spare fully charged AA
    >batteries that I kept separately in the camera case were dead when I got
    >around to putting them in the camera. Meanwhile, I started to notice that
    >my then little-kid niece and nephew who were using Kodak digital cameras
    >could take picture after picture seemingly forever without the batteries
    >going dead. That's when I switched to Kodak cameras which I discovered had
    >with Li-Ion batteries.
    >
    >After I switched to cameras with the Li-Ion batteries, I noticed that when I
    >charged them and didn't use them for a long time, and then went to use them,
    >they were still charged and ready to use.
    >
    >So, I guess that is where I developed a prejudice against the AA
    >rechargeable batteries.
    >


    I understand staying in your comfort zone, and have no desire to talk
    you into AAs. I suggest only that you don't let this factor be a
    deal-breaker.

    I am normally a DSLR user, but keep a point-and-shoot in my center
    console at all times for those occasions where I need to make a very
    quick grab shot or am without my DSLR. I can't remember when I used
    it last, but I checked before posting this and the battery indicator
    is at 100% (rechargeables). That's keeping a camera in a hot car in
    Florida weather.

    My grandson (8 years-old) made the Babe Ruth League All-Star team
    after the regular season. They played in a town 2 hours from here in
    the state championship qualification round. One of the mothers
    brought her new Nikon DSLR to the game, but left her battery in the
    charger at home. My spare Nikon batteries didn't fit her camera, so I
    loaned her my second body and she used her own SD card.

    If she owned a point-and-shoot using rechargeable AAs, and left the
    batteries at home in the charger, she could have stopped in any store
    and purchased regular AAs.

    --
    Tony Cooper - Orlando FL
    Tony Cooper, Jul 1, 2013
    #29
  10. Jake29

    Jake29 Guest

    David Taylor wrote:
    > On 29/06/2013 21:04, Jake29 wrote:
    > []
    >> I like the plain flat version of digital cameras that I can just
    >> keep in my pocket; not the bigger size cameras that are out there. I am
    >> expecting the cost to be less that about $200. If it has the
    >> right battery type (rechargeable Li-Ion), a fairly high megapixel
    >> rating, and a fairly high optical zoom, that would be great.


    > Based on previous experience, I would recommend the Panasonic range,
    > such as:
    >
    > http://www.dpreview.com/news/2013/01/07/Panasonic-Lumix-DMC-ZS30-TZ40-and-DMC-ZS25-TZ35


    Thanks, I'll check that out too. It looks like it may be more expensive
    than the other options people here have suggested so far, but not by that
    much.

    I found this YouTube link about it:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPla9VKg2uQ .

    In the video, they talk about CMOS versus "??" (I couldn't understand what
    the presenter called the other option). They made it sound like CMOS may be
    better, but I don't know if it matters for what I need or want in a camera.
    Jake29, Jul 1, 2013
    #30
  11. Jake29

    Whisky-dave Guest


    >
    > >So, I guess that is where I developed a prejudice against the AA

    >
    > >rechargeable batteries.

    >
    > >

    >
    >
    >
    > I understand staying in your comfort zone, and have no desire to talk
    >
    > you into AAs. I suggest only that you don't let this factor be a
    >
    > deal-breaker.


    I'd say it depends on what you're likiley to be shooting.
    I ran down 4 recharble batteries while shooting about 30mins of video with a fuji-finepix HS-10. I didn't even have it on 60FPS but I did use HD mode video.

    While having a camera that can take AAs is handy they seem to be a little bulkier. I wouldn;t buy a camera because it had AAs as an option.

    If you're in a forest or out somewhere chances are there might not be a shop to buy batteries of any sort.
    I'd suggest using a post-it note stuck to the front door reminding you to pack spare batteries or extra AAs depending on camera or as I do the night before send put a note on my bed which says "Charge batteries before tomorrow !"

    I've veven been know to send myself an email.

    > I am normally a DSLR user, but keep a point-and-shoot in my center
    >
    > console at all times for those occasions where I need to make a very
    >
    > quick grab shot or am without my DSLR. I can't remember when I used
    >
    > it last, but I checked before posting this and the battery indicator
    >
    > is at 100% (rechargeables). That's keeping a camera in a hot car in
    >
    > Florida weather.


    That sounds good but I'd try a few shots just in case it a temperature thing giving a false indication.


    > My grandson (8 years-old) made the Babe Ruth League All-Star team
    >
    > after the regular season. They played in a town 2 hours from here in
    >
    > the state championship qualification round. One of the mothers
    >
    > brought her new Nikon DSLR to the game, but left her battery in the
    >
    > charger at home.


    See a note on the front door ;)


    > My spare Nikon batteries didn't fit her camera, so I
    >
    > loaned her my second body and she used her own SD card.


    It does seem that camara manufactures like to change batteries types & sizes.

    > If she owned a point-and-shoot using rechargeable AAs, and left the
    >
    > batteries at home in the charger, she could have stopped in any store
    >
    > and purchased regular AAs.


    If such a store was about and open of course.
    Whisky-dave, Jul 1, 2013
    #31
  12. Jake29

    nospam Guest

    In article <kqs6of$cb6$>, Jake29
    <> wrote:

    > In the video, they talk about CMOS versus "??" (I couldn't understand what
    > the presenter called the other option). They made it sound like CMOS may be
    > better, but I don't know if it matters for what I need or want in a camera.


    cmos and ccd are the two sensor technologies. cmos has some advantages
    but you aren't going to notice much of a difference.
    nospam, Jul 1, 2013
    #32
  13. Jake29

    nospam Guest

    In article <>, Tony Cooper
    <> wrote:

    > >> I am confused, though. The bigger store is always crowded with
    > >> customers. All six clerks are usually busy with a customer. The
    > >> high-end Canons and Nikons are being rung up all the time. The four
    > >> aisles of camera bags don't seem dusty so it appears there's
    > >> turn-over. All that lighting equipment, tripods and other accessories
    > >> seem to move. Is it all smoke and mirrors?

    > >
    > >ritz camera stores were often busy too and look what happened there.
    > >
    > >even best buy is having troubles. every time i've been in a best buy
    > >there's always been a line at the registers, so how could they be in
    > >such financial difficulty?

    >
    > Best Buy's problems stem from their inability to compete with online
    > sales because their store prices are higher than some online outfits
    > and the stores don't offer offsetting advantages to the buyer. Part
    > of this is due to their staff not being considered helpful to
    > customers.
    >
    > The camera store in my example does offer offsetting advantages: an
    > experienced and knowledgeable sales staff and a comprehensive
    > inventory of a wide range of camera equipment.


    not as wide a selection as what's online, such as at b&h. they're
    probably more expensive than b&h too.

    i've had stores tell me to go to b&h because they don't have what i
    need, rather than try to sell me something close but not exact. that's
    a store i go back to.

    stores need to offer more than online sellers if they wish to stay in
    business. some do, some don't. the ones that don't are the ones that
    end up closing.

    > Best Buy is also so diversified in their product line that a downturn
    > in one group of products can affect the numbers. They devote (at
    > least in the store in my area) a large amount of floorspace to music
    > and video, and that's a product line that is trending more and more to
    > online purchases. The camera store's floorspace is devoted to only
    > two markets: photography and hobbyists.


    trending? you're behind the times. the itunes store is the #1 music
    retailer and has been for quite some time.

    the current trend are services such as pandora and spotify, and soon,
    itunes radio.

    > Best Buy's problems are also due to stockholder's expectations of
    > return and growth. The privately-owned camera store needs to make no
    > decisions based on outsiders.


    it doesn't matter who makes the decisions, only that the decisions are
    good ones. just because something is privately owned doesn't mean they
    make good business decisions.

    > Best Buy's problems are also attributable to their problems in their
    > non-US stores. The overseas market is not responding as well as the
    > domestic market.


    best buy's problems are that it's not a particularly good store, has
    higher prices than their own online store (and their in-store network
    pulls up the higher store price, not cool), treats their customers with
    contempt, has morons for sales people and it's not well managed.

    > >could it be there's more to it than seeing cashiers ring up items? why
    > >yes, it could.
    > >
    > >> They're losing sales of $100 point-and-shoots to the big box stores,
    > >> and that must be where the money is. Right? They shouldn't be
    > >> concentrating on $1,000 Gitzmo tripods when they could be selling a GE
    > >> point-and-shoot for $49.00. Right? They shouldn't be following this
    > >> DSLR fad thing, right?

    > >
    > >people buy online now.

    >
    > Yes, they do. Also, people buy from brick and mortar stores. An
    > unqualified statement like yours means nothing.


    more and more people are buying on line because stores have higher
    prices and not so great service.

    a few clicks and the product shows up in a day or two. can't beat that.
    amazon is even testing same day delivery in some markets.

    > >do they offer anything beyond handing you a box? if not, it's soon to
    > >be curtain time. if they do, then more power to them. the only way
    > >stores will stay in business is to offer additional value over the
    > >internet sellers.
    > >
    > >the way you described it, with leaving the batteries out from the
    > >display cameras, is not a way to win customers. that's why i said they
    > >won't last long.

    >
    > The behind-the-counter cameras are there without batteries. There are
    > no on-counter cameras. When the customer is handed a display camera,
    > the battery is added. Sometimes there is a delay because the needed
    > batteries are in use by another clerk, but the potential buyer of a
    > higher-end DSLR is not put off by this.


    what's the point in that? who is going to steal a battery from a camera
    behind the counter? that just adds an unnecessary delay.

    anyway, those who are put off by that practice don't bother showing up
    in the first place.
    nospam, Jul 1, 2013
    #33
  14. Jake29

    nospam Guest

    In article <kqs34h$1va$>, Jake29
    <> wrote:

    > Although I have limited experience with this, that is the experience that I
    > had in the past when I first bought digital cameras (before the two that I
    > mentioned in my original post). My experience was that the rechargeable AA
    > batteries lasted only a very short time before needing to be recharged,


    depends on the camera and the batteries.

    > and
    > any batteries that I had fully charged were basically dead by the time I got
    > around to trying to take a picture. At first, I thought the problem was the
    > camera technology may have been such that the cameras used up way too much
    > battery power. But, that didn't explain why the spare fully charged AA
    > batteries that I kept separately in the camera case were dead when I got
    > around to putting them in the camera.


    nimh has a high self-discharge rate unless you get eneloops, which can
    last a year or more with very little discharge.

    > Meanwhile, I started to notice that
    > my then little-kid niece and nephew who were using Kodak digital cameras
    > could take picture after picture seemingly forever without the batteries
    > going dead. That's when I switched to Kodak cameras which I discovered had
    > with Li-Ion batteries.


    li-on has a slower self-discharge rate than ordinary nimh aa.

    > After I switched to cameras with the Li-Ion batteries, I noticed that when I
    > charged them and didn't use them for a long time, and then went to use them,
    > they were still charged and ready to use.


    not a full charge, but fairly full. it does self-discharge.

    > So, I guess that is where I developed a prejudice against the AA
    > rechargeable batteries.


    probably.
    nospam, Jul 1, 2013
    #34
  15. Jake29

    Jake29 Guest

    Tony Cooper wrote:
    >>>> On Sat, 29 Jun 2013 16:04:52 -0400, "Jake29" <>
    >>>> wrote:
    >>>> So, I am looking for suggestions of a new point-and-shoot digital
    >>>> camera.


    > Point-and-shoots can be used for panoramas. It's software that
    > creates a panorama using a point and shoot*, and Elements will do
    > that. Elements would be worth having for other purposes. A tripod or
    > monopod is almost essential for a panorama. A panorama is better than
    > a wide angle shot with a point and shoot because the widest setting
    > can (not will) produce distortion at the edges. Shoot the panorama
    > images in portrait, not landscape.


    Thanks. That's good info about the panorama option, and about shooting
    panorama images in portrait rather than landscape. I had never tried
    panorama options before but have seen my niece do that a few times for
    photos at an ocean resort.
    Jake29, Jul 1, 2013
    #35
  16. Jake29

    Whisky-dave Guest

    On Monday, 1 July 2013 16:20:52 UTC+1, Jake29 wrote:
    > David Taylor wrote:
    >
    > > On 29/06/2013 21:04, Jake29 wrote:

    >
    > > []

    >
    > >> I like the plain flat version of digital cameras that I can just

    >
    > >> keep in my pocket; not the bigger size cameras that are out there. I am

    >
    > >> expecting the cost to be less that about $200. If it has the

    >
    > >> right battery type (rechargeable Li-Ion), a fairly high megapixel

    >
    > >> rating, and a fairly high optical zoom, that would be great.

    >
    >
    >
    > > Based on previous experience, I would recommend the Panasonic range,

    >
    > > such as:

    >
    > >

    >
    > > http://www.dpreview.com/news/2013/01/07/Panasonic-Lumix-DMC-ZS30-TZ40-and-DMC-ZS25-TZ35

    >
    >
    >
    > Thanks, I'll check that out too. It looks like it may be more expensive
    >
    > than the other options people here have suggested so far, but not by that
    >
    > much.
    >
    >
    >
    > I found this YouTube link about it:
    >
    > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPla9VKg2uQ .
    >
    >
    >
    > In the video, they talk about CMOS versus "??" (I couldn't understand what
    >
    > the presenter called the other option). They made it sound like CMOS may be
    >
    > better, but I don't know if it matters for what I need or want in a camera.


    I don;t think you need to worry much about that.

    http://digital-photography-school.com/forum/digital-cameras/108489-ccd-vs-cmos-better.html

    Not saying what he says is true but it seems a reasonable post.
    Whisky-dave, Jul 1, 2013
    #36
  17. Jake29

    David Taylor Guest

    On 01/07/2013 15:48, Tony Cooper wrote:
    []
    > If she owned a point-and-shoot using rechargeable AAs, and left the
    > batteries at home in the charger, she could have stopped in any store
    > and purchased regular AAs.


    I'm surprised that non of the "consumer rights" folk hasn't made a big
    fuss about having standard Li-ion batteries, to avoid the need for each
    manufacturer and every camera to have its own proprietary battery type....
    --
    Cheers,
    David
    Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
    David Taylor, Jul 1, 2013
    #37
  18. Jake29

    J. Clarke Guest

    In article <kqs34h$1va$>, says...
    >
    > Robert Coe wrote:
    > > On Sat, 29 Jun 2013 16:54:25 -0400, Tony Cooper
    > > <> wrote:
    > >> On Sat, 29 Jun 2013 16:04:52 -0400, "Jake29" <>
    > >> wrote:
    > >>
    > >>> I lost the digital camera that I had and I need to buy a new one.
    > >>> ...
    > >>>
    > >>> So, I am looking for suggestions of a new point-and-shoot digital
    > >>> camera. I definitely don't want one that uses AA batteries
    > >>> (rechargeable or not) as many of them seem to do these days -- I
    > >>> want one with a rechargeable Li-Ion battery.

    >
    > >> I disagree with your preference about AA batteries, but it's your
    > >> camera and your money. My in-the-car point-and-shoot (my regular
    > >> camera is a Nikon DSLR) uses rechargeable AA batteries and shoots RAW
    > >> and has manual settings. I like the idea that if I haven't used it
    > >> for a while, and the batteries are flat, I can buy regular AA
    > >> batteries at any store and use them. If my Nikon Li-Ion battery goes
    > >> flat, I have to go home to charge it. (Well, *I* don't, but I have
    > >> three batteries and always carry charged spares.)

    >
    > > Something I was reminded of the other day when I was charging my
    > > batteries for a shoot: All my AAs (I keep about 50 in play) needed at
    > > least some charging time, even if they hadn't been used since their
    > > last charge. But three proprietary camera batteries that had been
    > > sitting outside the camera showed full charge after less than 15
    > > seconds on the charger. Pretty clearly, those batteries hold a charge
    > > better than the AAs do.

    >
    > Although I have limited experience with this, that is the experience that I
    > had in the past when I first bought digital cameras (before the two that I
    > mentioned in my original post). My experience was that the rechargeable AA
    > batteries lasted only a very short time before needing to be recharged, and
    > any batteries that I had fully charged were basically dead by the time I got
    > around to trying to take a picture. At first, I thought the problem was the
    > camera technology may have been such that the cameras used up way too much
    > battery power. But, that didn't explain why the spare fully charged AA
    > batteries that I kept separately in the camera case were dead when I got
    > around to putting them in the camera. Meanwhile, I started to notice that
    > my then little-kid niece and nephew who were using Kodak digital cameras
    > could take picture after picture seemingly forever without the batteries
    > going dead. That's when I switched to Kodak cameras which I discovered had
    > with Li-Ion batteries.
    >
    > After I switched to cameras with the Li-Ion batteries, I noticed that when I
    > charged them and didn't use them for a long time, and then went to use them,
    > they were still charged and ready to use.
    >
    > So, I guess that is where I developed a prejudice against the AA
    > rechargeable batteries.


    For what it's worth, the problem you describe is the one that low-self-
    discharge NiMH batteries such as the Sanyo Eneloop were designed to
    address, and to a significant extent they do.
    J. Clarke, Jul 1, 2013
    #38
  19. Jake29

    David Taylor Guest

    On 01/07/2013 16:20, Jake29 wrote:
    []
    > Thanks, I'll check that out too. It looks like it may be more expensive
    > than the other options people here have suggested so far, but not by that
    > much.
    >
    > I found this YouTube link about it:
    > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPla9VKg2uQ .
    >
    > In the video, they talk about CMOS versus "??" (I couldn't understand what
    > the presenter called the other option). They made it sound like CMOS may be
    > better, but I don't know if it matters for what I need or want in a camera.


    CMOS and CCD, but these days it doesn't really matter, as the
    manufacturer will fit the best sensor for the camera (put simplistically).
    --
    Cheers,
    David
    Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
    David Taylor, Jul 1, 2013
    #39
  20. Jake29

    Tony Cooper Guest

    On Mon, 01 Jul 2013 11:26:55 -0400, nospam <>
    wrote:

    >> Best Buy is also so diversified in their product line that a downturn
    >> in one group of products can affect the numbers. They devote (at
    >> least in the store in my area) a large amount of floorspace to music
    >> and video, and that's a product line that is trending more and more to
    >> online purchases. The camera store's floorspace is devoted to only
    >> two markets: photography and hobbyists.

    >
    >trending? you're behind the times. the itunes store is the #1 music
    >retailer and has been for quite some time.


    Trends are continuing movements. The trend from transportation
    primarily by horse and carriage to automobile has pretty much ended,
    but more recent changes continue as a trend.

    >> >
    >> >the way you described it, with leaving the batteries out from the
    >> >display cameras, is not a way to win customers. that's why i said they
    >> >won't last long.

    >>
    >> The behind-the-counter cameras are there without batteries. There are
    >> no on-counter cameras. When the customer is handed a display camera,
    >> the battery is added. Sometimes there is a delay because the needed
    >> batteries are in use by another clerk, but the potential buyer of a
    >> higher-end DSLR is not put off by this.

    >
    >what's the point in that? who is going to steal a battery from a camera
    >behind the counter? that just adds an unnecessary delay.


    The reason is not to prevent theft of batteries. The reason is to
    devote just a few batteries to demonstration use and to be able to
    keep those batteries fully-charged. Six demo cameras require six
    batteries in use, but this store's system requires fewer than six and
    they can be kept fully-charged. You pointed out in another post that
    big box store display units often have flat batteries. The store
    doesn't use a tether system, so the cameras have to be
    battery-powered.

    >anyway, those who are put off by that practice don't bother showing up
    >in the first place.


    What? If they don't show up in the first place, how would they know
    about the practice? Great thinking there, nospam.

    --
    Tony Cooper - Orlando FL
    Tony Cooper, Jul 1, 2013
    #40
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