Business SIP trunk experience both bad and good

Discussion in 'UK VOIP' started by tonyton614@gmail.com, Feb 19, 2009.

  1. Guest

    Looking for quality SIP trunk for business. We have a callmanager
    environment and with PRIs. We are looking into cutting cost for
    outbound calls. We are currently testing voip.co.uk and would like to
    know the good and bad experience. If anyone is currently using SIP
    trunk for business or looking for a provider, what are your experience
    so far and what do you recommend?

    Tony Ton
    , Feb 19, 2009
    #1
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  2. Tim Guest

    wrote:
    > Looking for quality SIP trunk for business. We have a callmanager
    > environment and with PRIs. We are looking into cutting cost for
    > outbound calls. We are currently testing voip.co.uk and would like to
    > know the good and bad experience. If anyone is currently using SIP
    > trunk for business or looking for a provider, what are your experience
    > so far and what do you recommend?


    We've been entirely sip trunked in our business for 2 years now, and
    we've never looked back.

    Providers to look at:

    voipunlimited
    gradwell
    aql
    voipfone


    If you are sharing the SIP trunk internet connection with other users,
    then you need something to priortise the VoIP or you will get bad call
    quality.

    Tim
    Tim, Feb 19, 2009
    #2
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  3. Guest

    On Feb 19, 10:54 am, Tim <> wrote:
    > wrote:
    > > Looking for quality SIP trunk for business. We have a callmanager
    > > environment and with PRIs. We are looking into cutting cost for
    > > outbound calls. We are currently testing voip.co.uk and would like to
    > > know the good and bad experience. If anyone is currently using SIP
    > > trunk for business or looking for a provider, what are your experience
    > > so far and what do you recommend?

    >
    > We've been entirely sip trunked in our business for 2 years now, and
    > we've never looked back.
    >
    > Providers to look at:
    >
    > voipunlimited
    > gradwell
    > aql
    > voipfone
    >
    > If you are sharing the SIP trunk internet connection with other users,
    > then you need something to priortise the VoIP or you will get bad call
    > quality.
    >
    > Tim


    Thanks for the info Tim, we would hope to run a dedicated lease line
    to the provider is possible. Does any of these provider offer that?
    , Feb 19, 2009
    #3
  4. Tim Guest

    wrote:
    > Thanks for the info Tim, we would hope to run a dedicated lease line
    > to the provider is possible. Does any of these provider offer that?



    You could ask voip.co.uk

    A leased line would probably work out more than ISDN30 unless you have
    lots and lots of channels.

    At about 2-7 channels, ADSL + SIP trunks is cheaper.

    Above this partial PRI probably better.

    Then SIP trunks become cheaper higher up again.


    I wouldn't want to be tied to a provider too. I'd buy the leased line
    separately to the SIP connection. Me being me, I'd also buy the leased
    line to my own rack space in a friendly data centre, so I can pick and
    choose my internet connectivity provider.


    Gradwell and voipfone can both provide DSL circuits directly onto their
    networks.

    You should also be aware that ethernet circuits are about to have a
    price shakeup, due to the way BT price things changing.

    Check out:

    http://www.aaisp.net.uk/news-2009-01-ethernet.html

    Prices reasonable on the locations I've had quotes for.

    Tim
    Tim, Feb 20, 2009
    #4
  5. Tim Guest

    Tim wrote:
    >
    >
    > I wouldn't want to be tied to a provider too. I'd buy the leased line
    > separately to the SIP connection. Me being me, I'd also buy the leased
    > line to my own rack space in a friendly data centre, so I can pick and
    > choose my internet connectivity provider.



    I have 1 exception to this rule.

    Most telcos have second sites (outside London). If you need loads of
    channels, then a direct fibre into one of their POP sites could be very
    economical.


    Tell us where you are and I can make suggestions.


    Tim
    Tim, Feb 20, 2009
    #5
  6. In article <499e0128$0$511$>,
    Tim <> wrote:
    > wrote:
    >> Thanks for the info Tim, we would hope to run a dedicated lease line
    >> to the provider is possible. Does any of these provider offer that?

    >
    >
    >You could ask voip.co.uk
    >
    >A leased line would probably work out more than ISDN30 unless you have
    >lots and lots of channels.
    >
    >At about 2-7 channels, ADSL + SIP trunks is cheaper.
    >
    >Above this partial PRI probably better.
    >
    >Then SIP trunks become cheaper higher up again.


    I did some benchmarks of 20 concurrent calls over a business-class
    ADSL line recently (830Kb upstream), as I've a customer (a small call
    centre) looking at moving to VoIP with 20 seats - that required using G729
    though. In theory, you can squeeze 34 G729 SIP calls over an ADSL line
    with 830Kb/sec upload speed, (or close to 100 using IAX rather than SIP)
    however my concern then would be the (ADSL) equipments ability to handle
    the packet load - 50 pps each way per call.

    >I wouldn't want to be tied to a provider too. I'd buy the leased line
    >separately to the SIP connection. Me being me, I'd also buy the leased
    >line to my own rack space in a friendly data centre, so I can pick and
    >choose my internet connectivity provider.


    You may well be tied to a provider if you're registering new numbers
    and taking incoming calls, and it might be wise to find out where their
    SIP media proxy devices are - some ITSPs may have them distributed in
    different data centres and be using load balancing methods to spread
    load and increase redundancy... You need to talk directly to the ITSPs
    and give them an idea of your incoming and outgoing call requirements.

    >Gradwell and voipfone can both provide DSL circuits directly onto their
    >networks.


    I always wondered about this, but don't have the capacity to do more
    investigations right now (nor the need at present). As I see it, you're
    either using capacity of an LLU network operator where you can negotiate
    with them the contentions, etc. or at the mercy of the BT Wholesale
    network as far as I can see it - not sure how to influence the latter
    other than pay for elevated service.

    >You should also be aware that ethernet circuits are about to have a
    >price shakeup, due to the way BT price things changing.
    >
    >Check out:
    >
    >http://www.aaisp.net.uk/news-2009-01-ethernet.html
    >
    >Prices reasonable on the locations I've had quotes for.


    There are also deals to be had on traditional 2Mb lines point to point
    rather than carrying Internet traffic, (especially if you can go with
    someone like Telewest/NTL rather than BT) but if you're doing that,
    you might look at running TDM over them rather than VoIP! (30 channels
    uncompressed vs. 20) A lot is going to depend on where you are - in a
    city with lots of competing operators or in the sticks with only BT )-:

    Gordon
    Gordon Henderson, Feb 20, 2009
    #6
  7. Tim Guest

    Gordon Henderson wrote:
    > I did some benchmarks of 20 concurrent calls over a business-class
    > ADSL line recently (830Kb upstream), as I've a customer (a small call
    > centre) looking at moving to VoIP with 20 seats - that required using G729
    > though. In theory, you can squeeze 34 G729 SIP calls over an ADSL line
    > with 830Kb/sec upload speed, (or close to 100 using IAX rather than SIP)
    > however my concern then would be the (ADSL) equipments ability to handle
    > the packet load - 50 pps each way per call.



    pps is significant.

    It is a few years since i've had pps issues though.


    I wouldn't use G.729 in a callcentre - I reckon it will lead to higher
    staff turnover because of making people's brains work harder to work out
    what is being said.

    > You may well be tied to a provider if you're registering new numbers
    > and taking incoming calls, and it might be wise to find out where their
    > SIP media proxy devices are - some ITSPs may have them distributed in
    > different data centres and be using load balancing methods to spread
    > load and increase redundancy... You need to talk directly to the ITSPs
    > and give them an idea of your incoming and outgoing call requirements.


    But choice of outbound provider (which is what costs money) is always a
    good thing.

    > I always wondered about this, but don't have the capacity to do more
    > investigations right now (nor the need at present). As I see it, you're
    > either using capacity of an LLU network operator where you can negotiate
    > with them the contentions, etc. or at the mercy of the BT Wholesale
    > network as far as I can see it - not sure how to influence the latter
    > other than pay for elevated service.


    The BT wholesale network is actually pretty good on whole.

    LLU will give more upstream bandwidth as they support annexM.

    Tim
    Tim, Feb 20, 2009
    #7
  8. In article <499eb718$0$512$>,
    Tim <> wrote:
    >Gordon Henderson wrote:
    >> I did some benchmarks of 20 concurrent calls over a business-class
    >> ADSL line recently (830Kb upstream), as I've a customer (a small call
    >> centre) looking at moving to VoIP with 20 seats - that required using G729
    >> though. In theory, you can squeeze 34 G729 SIP calls over an ADSL line
    >> with 830Kb/sec upload speed, (or close to 100 using IAX rather than SIP)
    >> however my concern then would be the (ADSL) equipments ability to handle
    >> the packet load - 50 pps each way per call.

    >
    >pps is significant.
    >
    >It is a few years since i've had pps issues though.


    Hopefully modern routers, etc. are more than capable these days. I've
    had recent issues with Wi-Fi and other wireless links, but I really
    don't recomend those at all!

    >I wouldn't use G.729 in a callcentre - I reckon it will lead to higher
    >staff turnover because of making people's brains work harder to work out
    >what is being said.


    I have quite a lot of people using G729 right now without any issues. Most
    people I've tried it on can't tell the difference - I couldn't initially,
    but I can now - probably because I know what I'm listening for..

    The biggest issue has been when calling abroad, then you really don't
    know what's going on once the call's left you and transcoding and
    re-transcoding is what causes issues )-: I pass calls through end to
    end in G729 without doing transcoding myself.

    >> I always wondered about this, but don't have the capacity to do more
    >> investigations right now (nor the need at present). As I see it, you're
    >> either using capacity of an LLU network operator where you can negotiate
    >> with them the contentions, etc. or at the mercy of the BT Wholesale
    >> network as far as I can see it - not sure how to influence the latter
    >> other than pay for elevated service.

    >
    >The BT wholesale network is actually pretty good on whole.


    I think so too - especially if you spend a few £££ more and go with a
    business service. Stark contrast to the whingers and whiners who complain
    about being throttled because they've downloaded more music/video this
    week than they can watch in a lifetime...

    >LLU will give more upstream bandwidth as they support annexM.


    I have one customer on Entanet ADSL2+ and they get just over 1Mb/sec
    upstream and they're very happy (small video production house, so
    uplaoding their videos is now much much faster!)

    Gordon
    Gordon Henderson, Feb 20, 2009
    #8
  9. Bodincus Guest

    Gordon Henderson wrote:
    > In article <499eb718$0$512$>,
    > Tim <> wrote:
    >> Gordon Henderson wrote:
    >>> I did some benchmarks of 20 concurrent calls over a business-class
    >>> ADSL line recently (830Kb upstream), as I've a customer (a small call
    >>> centre) looking at moving to VoIP with 20 seats - that required using G729
    >>> though. In theory, you can squeeze 34 G729 SIP calls over an ADSL line
    >>> with 830Kb/sec upload speed, (or close to 100 using IAX rather than SIP)
    >>> however my concern then would be the (ADSL) equipments ability to handle
    >>> the packet load - 50 pps each way per call.

    >> pps is significant.
    >>
    >> It is a few years since i've had pps issues though.

    >
    > Hopefully modern routers, etc. are more than capable these days. I've
    > had recent issues with Wi-Fi and other wireless links, but I really
    > don't recomend those at all!


    If pps is an issue, change the packet size to 60 msecs. It's a multiple
    of 20 and 30, so all codecs can be used (g723 is on 30 msecs chunks, all
    others on 20).

    >> I wouldn't use G.729 in a callcentre - I reckon it will lead to higher
    >> staff turnover because of making people's brains work harder to work out
    >> what is being said.

    >
    > I have quite a lot of people using G729 right now without any issues. Most
    > people I've tried it on can't tell the difference - I couldn't initially,
    > but I can now - probably because I know what I'm listening for..
    >
    > The biggest issue has been when calling abroad, then you really don't
    > know what's going on once the call's left you and transcoding and
    > re-transcoding is what causes issues )-: I pass calls through end to
    > end in G729 without doing transcoding myself.


    Seconded, good quality and efficient g729 codecs are a boon anyhow,
    squeezing more bangs for your bucks.
    Most of the good brands endpoints (SNOM, Siemens, Cisco et al) have
    pretty good support for g729. Users can't tell the difference between
    G711 and G729, also a large chunk of the conversations now are to
    mobiles - GSM codec quality anyone?

    >> LLU will give more upstream bandwidth as they support annexM.

    >
    > I have one customer on Entanet ADSL2+ and they get just over 1Mb/sec
    > upstream and they're very happy (small video production house, so
    > uplaoding their videos is now much much faster!)
    >


    Far more important than that, it's how the ADSL is configured: FAST or
    INTERLEAVE.
    You want FAST. (http://www.dslzoneuk.net/adslmax_explained.php)
    We're on Entanet too, quite happy with a FAST ADSL with 832 Kbps uplink,
    8128 downlink. 780 Meters from the exchange as the crow flies.

    --
    Bodincus - The Y2K Druid
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Law 42 on computing: Anything that could go wron@^S~ 00
    $: Access Violation - Core dumped
    Bodincus, Feb 20, 2009
    #9
  10. David Knell Guest

    On 20 Feb, 15:27, Bodincus <> wrote:
    > Seconded, good quality and efficient g729 codecs are a boon anyhow,
    > squeezing more bangs for your bucks.
    > Most of the good brands endpoints (SNOM, Siemens, Cisco et al) have
    > pretty good support for g729. Users can't tell the difference between
    > G711 and G729, also a large chunk of the conversations now are to
    > mobiles - GSM codec quality anyone?


    Users can tell the difference between a call that's been compressed
    with both G.729 and then the GSM codec and one that's been
    compressed with the GSM codec alone. We run various bits of
    wholesale traffic, and the drop in average call durations to mobiles
    when we tried moving from G.711 to G.729 in our network was quite
    startling.

    --Dave
    David Knell, Feb 21, 2009
    #10
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