BSA Says Backups Are "Infringement"

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Apr 9, 2009.

  1. BSA prevents customers from backing up
    <http://techdirt.com/articles/20090403/0241504369.shtml>.

    For those who tried to say I was wrong when I pointed this out:
    <http://groups.google.co.nz/group/nz.comp/msg/24a142bd3434d443>,
    <http://groups.google.co.nz/group/nz.comp/msg/37a390a56ea82332>,
    <http://groups.google.co.nz/group/nz.comp/msg/fbcba6d7dc13a50b>.
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Apr 9, 2009
    #1
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  2. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    impossible Guest

    "Allistar" <> wrote in message
    news:p...
    > Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >
    >> BSA prevents customers from backing up
    >> <http://techdirt.com/articles/20090403/0241504369.shtml>.
    >>
    >> For those who tried to say I was wrong when I pointed this out:
    >> <http://groups.google.co.nz/group/nz.comp/msg/24a142bd3434d443>,
    >> <http://groups.google.co.nz/group/nz.comp/msg/37a390a56ea82332>,
    >> <http://groups.google.co.nz/group/nz.comp/msg/fbcba6d7dc13a50b>.

    >
    > I wonder if mirrored disks are considered a "backup" and hence illegal.
    > What
    > of having a caching disk controller? A copy of software in RAM, L2 and L3
    > cache! An image displayed on screen and hence in the display buffer. The
    > world's done mad.
    > --


    Don't me melodramatic. Backups of data on machines where software is
    properly licensed are never in dispute.
    impossible, Apr 9, 2009
    #2
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  3. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Mutlley Guest

    Allistar <> wrote:

    >Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >
    >> BSA prevents customers from backing up
    >> <http://techdirt.com/articles/20090403/0241504369.shtml>.
    >>
    >> For those who tried to say I was wrong when I pointed this out:
    >> <http://groups.google.co.nz/group/nz.comp/msg/24a142bd3434d443>,
    >> <http://groups.google.co.nz/group/nz.comp/msg/37a390a56ea82332>,
    >> <http://groups.google.co.nz/group/nz.comp/msg/fbcba6d7dc13a50b>.

    >
    >I wonder if mirrored disks are considered a "backup" and hence illegal. What
    >of having a caching disk controller? A copy of software in RAM, L2 and L3
    >cache! An image displayed on screen and hence in the display buffer. The
    >world's done mad.



    Guess the BSA needs to have a disk crash with no backups then they may
    change their ideas. Pack of **** wits..
    Mutlley, Apr 9, 2009
    #3
  4. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    impossible Guest

    "Allistar" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > impossible wrote:
    >
    >>
    >> "Allistar" <> wrote in message
    >> news:p...
    >>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> BSA prevents customers from backing up
    >>>> <http://techdirt.com/articles/20090403/0241504369.shtml>.
    >>>>
    >>>> For those who tried to say I was wrong when I pointed this out:
    >>>> <http://groups.google.co.nz/group/nz.comp/msg/24a142bd3434d443>,
    >>>> <http://groups.google.co.nz/group/nz.comp/msg/37a390a56ea82332>,
    >>>> <http://groups.google.co.nz/group/nz.comp/msg/fbcba6d7dc13a50b>.
    >>>
    >>> I wonder if mirrored disks are considered a "backup" and hence illegal.
    >>> What
    >>> of having a caching disk controller? A copy of software in RAM, L2 and
    >>> L3
    >>> cache! An image displayed on screen and hence in the display buffer. The
    >>> world's done mad.

    >>
    >> Don't me melodramatic. Backups of data on machines where software is
    >> properly licensed are never in dispute.

    >
    > What if the "machine" is an external hard drive? A tape? Effective backups
    > are take off-site, which would not be "on machines where software is
    > properly licensed".
    > --


    Now you're being obtuse. Backups of data on or from from machines where
    software is
    properly licensed are never in dispute.
    impossible, Apr 9, 2009
    #4
  5. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    impossible Guest

    "Allistar" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Mutlley wrote:
    >
    >> Allistar <> wrote:
    >>
    >>>Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> BSA prevents customers from backing up
    >>>> <http://techdirt.com/articles/20090403/0241504369.shtml>.
    >>>>
    >>>> For those who tried to say I was wrong when I pointed this out:
    >>>> <http://groups.google.co.nz/group/nz.comp/msg/24a142bd3434d443>,
    >>>> <http://groups.google.co.nz/group/nz.comp/msg/37a390a56ea82332>,
    >>>> <http://groups.google.co.nz/group/nz.comp/msg/fbcba6d7dc13a50b>.
    >>>
    >>>I wonder if mirrored disks are considered a "backup" and hence illegal.
    >>>What of having a caching disk controller? A copy of software in RAM, L2
    >>>and L3 cache! An image displayed on screen and hence in the display
    >>>buffer. The world's done mad.

    >>
    >>
    >> Guess the BSA needs to have a disk crash with no backups then they may
    >> change their ideas. Pack of **** wits..

    >
    > Indeed. Do they have any legal right to enter your premises to do an
    > audit?


    With a properly executed judicial warrant? Of course they do.
    ..
    > I'd say that they shouldn't, but who knows?
    > -


    Yeah, who knows? We could be living in a world without laws, where pirates
    roam free and steal at will, without any recourse for the property owners.
    impossible, Apr 9, 2009
    #5
  6. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Party Leader Guest

    impossible wrote:
    > "Allistar" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> Mutlley wrote:
    >>
    >>> Allistar <> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> BSA prevents customers from backing up
    >>>>> <http://techdirt.com/articles/20090403/0241504369.shtml>.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> For those who tried to say I was wrong when I pointed this out:
    >>>>> <http://groups.google.co.nz/group/nz.comp/msg/24a142bd3434d443>,
    >>>>> <http://groups.google.co.nz/group/nz.comp/msg/37a390a56ea82332>,
    >>>>> <http://groups.google.co.nz/group/nz.comp/msg/fbcba6d7dc13a50b>.
    >>>>
    >>>> I wonder if mirrored disks are considered a "backup" and hence illegal.
    >>>> What of having a caching disk controller? A copy of software in RAM, L2
    >>>> and L3 cache! An image displayed on screen and hence in the display
    >>>> buffer. The world's done mad.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> Guess the BSA needs to have a disk crash with no backups then they may
    >>> change their ideas. Pack of **** wits..

    >>
    >> Indeed. Do they have any legal right to enter your premises to do an
    >> audit?

    >
    > With a properly executed judicial warrant? Of course they do.
    > .


    Not unless the BSA has become part of the police force or customs they
    don't.
    Party Leader, Apr 9, 2009
    #6
  7. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Guest

    On Apr 9, 3:53 pm, "impossible" <> wrote:
    > "Allistar" <> wrote in message
    >
    > news:...
    >
    >
    >
    > > Mutlley wrote:

    >
    > >> Allistar <> wrote:

    >
    > >>>Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

    >
    > >>>> BSA prevents customers from backing up
    > >>>> <http://techdirt.com/articles/20090403/0241504369.shtml>.

    >
    > >>>> For those who tried to say I was wrong when I pointed this out:
    > >>>> <http://groups.google.co.nz/group/nz.comp/msg/24a142bd3434d443>,
    > >>>> <http://groups.google.co.nz/group/nz.comp/msg/37a390a56ea82332>,
    > >>>> <http://groups.google.co.nz/group/nz.comp/msg/fbcba6d7dc13a50b>.

    >
    > >>>I wonder if mirrored disks are considered a "backup" and hence illegal..
    > >>>What of having a caching disk controller? A copy of software in RAM, L2
    > >>>and L3 cache! An image displayed on screen and hence in the display
    > >>>buffer. The world's done mad.

    >
    > >> Guess the BSA needs to have a disk crash with no backups then they may
    > >> change their ideas.  Pack of **** wits..

    >
    > > Indeed. Do they have any legal right to enter your premises to do an
    > > audit?

    >
    > With a properly executed judicial warrant? Of course they do.


    Which would seem fair, otherwise they have little chance of portecting
    their rights, however it must be a judicial warrant so there is due
    process.

    > > I'd say that they shouldn't, but who knows?


    then you are wrong.

    > Yeah, who knows? We could be living in a world without laws,


    There is civil law and criminal law...

    > where pirates
    > roam free and steal at will, without any recourse for the property owners..


    There should be recourse, however the BSA abusing a position of
    privaledge to extort undue gain is not acceptable behaviour.

    regards

    Thing
    , Apr 9, 2009
    #7
  8. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    impossible Guest

    <> wrote in message
    news:...
    On Apr 9, 3:53 pm, "impossible" <> wrote:
    >> "Allistar" <> wrote in message
    >>
    >> news:...
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> > Mutlley wrote:

    >>
    >> >> Allistar <> wrote:

    >>
    >> >>>Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

    >>
    >> >>>> BSA prevents customers from backing up
    >> >>>> <http://techdirt.com/articles/20090403/0241504369.shtml>.

    >>
    >> >>>> For those who tried to say I was wrong when I pointed this out:
    >> >>>> <http://groups.google.co.nz/group/nz.comp/msg/24a142bd3434d443>,
    >> >>>> <http://groups.google.co.nz/group/nz.comp/msg/37a390a56ea82332>,
    >> >>>> <http://groups.google.co.nz/group/nz.comp/msg/fbcba6d7dc13a50b>.

    >>
    >> >>>I wonder if mirrored disks are considered a "backup" and hence
    >> >>>illegal.
    >> >>>What of having a caching disk controller? A copy of software in RAM,
    >> >>>L2
    >> >>>and L3 cache! An image displayed on screen and hence in the display
    >> >>>buffer. The world's done mad.

    >>
    >> >> Guess the BSA needs to have a disk crash with no backups then they may
    >> >> change their ideas. Pack of **** wits..

    >>
    >> > Indeed. Do they have any legal right to enter your premises to do an
    >> > audit?

    >>
    >> With a properly executed judicial warrant? Of course they do.

    >
    >Which would seem fair, otherwise they have little chance of portecting
    >their rights, however it must be a judicial warrant so there is due
    >process.
    >
    >> > I'd say that they shouldn't, but who knows?

    >
    >then you are wrong.
    >
    >> Yeah, who knows? We could be living in a world without laws,

    >
    >There is civil law and criminal law...
    >
    >> where pirates
    >> roam free and steal at will, without any recourse for the property
    >> owners.

    >
    >There should be recourse, however the BSA abusing a position of
    >privaledge to extort undue gain is not acceptable behaviour.
    >


    Whjaty "recourse" are you thinking of that doesn't involve some unpleasant
    consequences for the pirates?
    impossible, Apr 9, 2009
    #8
  9. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    impossible Guest

    "Party Leader" <> wrote in message
    news:grjsdi$c44$...
    > impossible wrote:
    >> "Allistar" <> wrote in message
    >> news:...
    >>> Mutlley wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Allistar <> wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> BSA prevents customers from backing up
    >>>>>> <http://techdirt.com/articles/20090403/0241504369.shtml>.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> For those who tried to say I was wrong when I pointed this out:
    >>>>>> <http://groups.google.co.nz/group/nz.comp/msg/24a142bd3434d443>,
    >>>>>> <http://groups.google.co.nz/group/nz.comp/msg/37a390a56ea82332>,
    >>>>>> <http://groups.google.co.nz/group/nz.comp/msg/fbcba6d7dc13a50b>.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> I wonder if mirrored disks are considered a "backup" and hence
    >>>>> illegal.
    >>>>> What of having a caching disk controller? A copy of software in RAM,
    >>>>> L2
    >>>>> and L3 cache! An image displayed on screen and hence in the display
    >>>>> buffer. The world's done mad.
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> Guess the BSA needs to have a disk crash with no backups then they may
    >>>> change their ideas. Pack of **** wits..
    >>>
    >>> Indeed. Do they have any legal right to enter your premises to do an
    >>> audit?

    >>
    >> With a properly executed judicial warrant? Of course they do.
    >> .

    >
    > Not unless the BSA has become part of the police force or customs they
    > don't.


    The court order is executed by the police -- just like any search warrant,
    only in this case it's the BSA auditors who are authorized by the court,
    under protection of the police, to carry out the search.
    impossible, Apr 9, 2009
    #9
  10. In message <>, Allistar wrote:

    > Do they have any legal right to enter your premises to do an audit?


    They would have no police powers. But they could threaten you with a lawsuit
    if you don't let them in to check. That's the only power they could have.
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Apr 9, 2009
    #10
  11. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Your Name Guest

    "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in message
    news:grjc9s$bsh$...
    > BSA prevents customers from backing up
    > <http://techdirt.com/articles/20090403/0241504369.shtml>.
    >
    > For those who tried to say I was wrong when I pointed this out:
    > <http://groups.google.co.nz/group/nz.comp/msg/24a142bd3434d443>,
    > <http://groups.google.co.nz/group/nz.comp/msg/37a390a56ea82332>,
    > <http://groups.google.co.nz/group/nz.comp/msg/fbcba6d7dc13a50b>.



    With a few exceptions, it has AWLAYS been illegal to make copies of someone
    else's material, and that includes original software install discs, music
    CDs, movie DVDs / VHS tapes, etc., even to make so-called "backups" which
    are often simply an excuse to pirate the original. If you buy a music CD and
    it gets scratched, then tough cheese, go and buy a new one just like you do
    when you're car gets written off or your house burns down, etc.
    Your Name, Apr 9, 2009
    #11
  12. In message <grk4db$q88$>, Your Name wrote:

    > With a few exceptions, it has AWLAYS been illegal to make copies of
    > someone else's material ...


    Uh ... no. Free Software has always been free to copy. And there's also fair
    dealing/fair use.

    > ... even to make so-called "backups" whicha re often simply an excuse to
    > pirate the original.


    Not sure why you're against the idea of making backups. Were you scared by a
    backup as a baby?
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Apr 9, 2009
    #12
  13. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Your Name Guest

    "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in message
    news:grk5o4$que$...
    > In message <grk4db$q88$>, Your Name wrote:
    >
    > > With a few exceptions, it has AWLAYS been illegal to make copies of
    > > someone else's material ...

    >
    > Uh ... no. Free Software has always been free to copy. And there's also

    fair
    > dealing/fair use.
    >
    > > ... even to make so-called "backups" whicha re often simply an excuse to
    > > pirate the original.

    >
    > Not sure why you're against the idea of making backups. Were you scared by

    a
    > backup as a baby?


    Damn! I didn't see it was posted by this idiot. The fool believes scumbag
    scalpers are fine, so of course he's going to fine scumbag pirates as well.
    I won't be wasting any more time in this topic. :-\
    Your Name, Apr 9, 2009
    #13
  14. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Keith Guest

    In article <grk4db$q88$>, says...
    >

    ....snip...
    > If you buy a music CD and
    > it gets scratched, then tough cheese, go and buy a new one just like you do
    > when you're car gets written off or your house burns down, etc.
    >

    Bad analogy - the cost of a copyrighted work is in the licence to use
    the IP not the plastic it is carried on.

    Remember all this law is about IP protection, all the complaints are
    about IP theft etc, not about the durability of the medium.

    Why shouldn't the consumer have some protection of the licence they
    purchased?
    Keith, Apr 9, 2009
    #14
  15. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Me Guest

    Keith wrote:
    > In article <grk4db$q88$>, says...
    > ...snip...
    >> If you buy a music CD and
    >> it gets scratched, then tough cheese, go and buy a new one just like you do
    >> when you're car gets written off or your house burns down, etc.
    >>

    > Bad analogy - the cost of a copyrighted work is in the licence to use
    > the IP not the plastic it is carried on.
    >
    > Remember all this law is about IP protection, all the complaints are
    > about IP theft etc, not about the durability of the medium.
    >
    > Why shouldn't the consumer have some protection of the licence they
    > purchased?
    >

    Even badder analogy given that most software can be available for d/l,
    replacement disks obtained, or a disk borrowed, and then activated using
    the purchased key - without infringing any laws.
    If the music industry used such a system, then they'd be fighting to
    ensure that writing down a product activation key on a piece of paper
    and storing it in a safe place was a criminal offense.
    Me, Apr 9, 2009
    #15
  16. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    impossible Guest

    "David Goodwin" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Thu, 09 Apr 2009 03:53:02 GMT, "impossible" <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >>"Allistar" <> wrote in message
    >>news:...
    >>> Indeed. Do they have any legal right to enter your premises to do an
    >>> audit?

    >>
    >>With a properly executed judicial warrant? Of course they do.
    >>.
    >>> I'd say that they shouldn't, but who knows?
    >>> -

    >>
    >>Yeah, who knows? We could be living in a world without laws, where pirates
    >>roam free and steal at will, without any recourse for the property owners.
    >>

    >
    > Luckily, I live inland! I doubt pirates would bother trying to sail up
    > the Waikato river when they could just attack coastal targets. And I
    > think the Waikato river probably isn't deep enough for a ship of any
    > significant size to be sailed up it so pirates probably couldnt attack
    > inland even if they wanted to!
    >
    > Thankfully NZ law does take piracy reasonably seriously though.
    > Section 94 of the crimes act of 1961 defines the following punishment
    > for those who have committed piratical acts (as defined in section
    > 93):
    > a) life imprisonment if, in committing the piratical act, he
    > murders, attempts to murder or does any act likely to endanger the
    > life of any person
    > b) imprisonment for a term not exceeding 14 years
    >
    > Anyhow, piracy seems entirely unrelated to the discussion of copyright
    > law and how it relates to the duplication of licensed copyrighted
    > works stored in digital form for the purpose of creating backups.


    Backups of data on machines that are running licensed software are not at
    issue. Pirated software, on the other hand, could invite a court order
    seizing all of your data until a proper audit determines exactly what was
    produced illegally. It's either that, or the navy swoops in and just blows
    the pirates out of the water -- I forget.
    impossible, Apr 9, 2009
    #16
  17. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    impossible Guest

    "Allistar" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > impossible wrote:
    >
    >>
    >> "Party Leader" <> wrote in message
    >> news:grjsdi$c44$...
    >>> impossible wrote:
    >>>> "Allistar" <> wrote in message
    >>>> news:...
    >>>>> Mutlley wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> Allistar <> wrote:
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> BSA prevents customers from backing up
    >>>>>>>> <http://techdirt.com/articles/20090403/0241504369.shtml>.
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> For those who tried to say I was wrong when I pointed this out:
    >>>>>>>> <http://groups.google.co.nz/group/nz.comp/msg/24a142bd3434d443>,
    >>>>>>>> <http://groups.google.co.nz/group/nz.comp/msg/37a390a56ea82332>,
    >>>>>>>> <http://groups.google.co.nz/group/nz.comp/msg/fbcba6d7dc13a50b>.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> I wonder if mirrored disks are considered a "backup" and hence
    >>>>>>> illegal.
    >>>>>>> What of having a caching disk controller? A copy of software in RAM,
    >>>>>>> L2
    >>>>>>> and L3 cache! An image displayed on screen and hence in the display
    >>>>>>> buffer. The world's done mad.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Guess the BSA needs to have a disk crash with no backups then they
    >>>>>> may
    >>>>>> change their ideas. Pack of **** wits..
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Indeed. Do they have any legal right to enter your premises to do an
    >>>>> audit?
    >>>>
    >>>> With a properly executed judicial warrant? Of course they do.
    >>>> .
    >>>
    >>> Not unless the BSA has become part of the police force or customs they
    >>> don't.

    >>
    >> The court order is executed by the police -- just like any search
    >> warrant,
    >> only in this case it's the BSA auditors who are authorized by the court,
    >> under protection of the police, to carry out the search.

    >
    > I wonder what "evidence" would be considered enough to issue such a
    > warrant.
    > --


    Better talk to your lawyer.
    impossible, Apr 9, 2009
    #17
  18. On Thu, 09 Apr 2009 03:53:02 GMT, "impossible" <>
    wrote:

    >"Allistar" <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >> Indeed. Do they have any legal right to enter your premises to do an
    >> audit?

    >
    >With a properly executed judicial warrant? Of course they do.
    >.
    >> I'd say that they shouldn't, but who knows?
    >> -

    >
    >Yeah, who knows? We could be living in a world without laws, where pirates
    >roam free and steal at will, without any recourse for the property owners.
    >


    Luckily, I live inland! I doubt pirates would bother trying to sail up
    the Waikato river when they could just attack coastal targets. And I
    think the Waikato river probably isn't deep enough for a ship of any
    significant size to be sailed up it so pirates probably couldnt attack
    inland even if they wanted to!

    Thankfully NZ law does take piracy reasonably seriously though.
    Section 94 of the crimes act of 1961 defines the following punishment
    for those who have committed piratical acts (as defined in section
    93):
    a) life imprisonment if, in committing the piratical act, he
    murders, attempts to murder or does any act likely to endanger the
    life of any person
    b) imprisonment for a term not exceeding 14 years

    Anyhow, piracy seems entirely unrelated to the discussion of copyright
    law and how it relates to the duplication of licensed copyrighted
    works stored in digital form for the purpose of creating backups.
    David Goodwin, Apr 9, 2009
    #18
  19. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Your Name Guest

    "David Goodwin" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Thu, 09 Apr 2009 03:53:02 GMT, "impossible" <>
    > wrote:
    >
    > >"Allistar" <> wrote in message
    > >news:...
    > >> Indeed. Do they have any legal right to enter your premises to do an
    > >> audit?

    > >
    > >With a properly executed judicial warrant? Of course they do.
    > >.
    > >> I'd say that they shouldn't, but who knows?
    > >> -

    > >
    > >Yeah, who knows? We could be living in a world without laws, where

    pirates
    > >roam free and steal at will, without any recourse for the property

    owners.
    > >

    >
    > Luckily, I live inland! I doubt pirates would bother trying to sail up
    > the Waikato river when they could just attack coastal targets. And I
    > think the Waikato river probably isn't deep enough for a ship of any
    > significant size to be sailed up it so pirates probably couldnt attack
    > inland even if they wanted to!
    >
    > Thankfully NZ law does take piracy reasonably seriously though.
    > Section 94 of the crimes act of 1961 defines the following punishment
    > for those who have committed piratical acts (as defined in section
    > 93):
    > a) life imprisonment if, in committing the piratical act, he
    > murders, attempts to murder or does any act likely to endanger the
    > life of any person
    > b) imprisonment for a term not exceeding 14 years
    >
    > Anyhow, piracy seems entirely unrelated to the discussion of copyright
    > law and how it relates to the duplication of licensed copyrighted
    > works stored in digital form for the purpose of creating backups.


    You purchase a license to USE the material (read, play the music, install
    the software on X number of computers, etc.). Most of the licenses do NOT
    allow you to make any kind of copy, and that includes a so-called "back-up".
    Your Name, Apr 9, 2009
    #19
  20. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Woger Guest

    Re: BSA Says Backups Are "Infringement" Update..

    Please not this utter Crap was posted by a mentally deranged Lunix Idiot, so
    take it with a Big pinch of salt..
    Woger, Apr 10, 2009
    #20
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    a_molon_target
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  4. Replies:
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