Browser Elections Breaking Wireless Connectivity

Discussion in 'Wireless Networking' started by AGuyWithoutStability, Jun 25, 2008.

  1. Ok, let me start by saying I've done all the normal things. I've changed the
    channel, I've used Netstumbler (I'm the only network which isn't suprising
    considering my nearest neighbor is a church - which by the way is empty most
    days, so I doubt they are the problem), I've tried both DHCP and static IP
    addresses. I've updated my router's firmware to the most recent, and I've
    updated my wireless drivers to the most recent and reverted back to the
    original and back again. I've set my SSID to broadcast. I do not have MAC
    filtering turned on. I have turned off power management on all USB ports in
    device manager. I have set the power to maximum (best performance) instead
    of minimum (best battery life). I do not have IE802.11 security enabled (in
    fact, it is grayed out). I have a wireless router that is new (Trendnet)
    though I had this same trouble with my other one (Netgear) which is why I
    bought a new one. I currently use WPA-PSK TKIP but had problems with WEP too
    (which is moot because it is worthless as security goes and I don't think a
    solution that involves dropping trou security-wise is acceptable). I have
    just 3 computers on the network, one desktop and two laptops. The two
    laptops are Dell with Intel 2200/BG built in and the desktop is HP with a USB
    D-Link WUA-2340 wireless adapter. All wired adapters are disabled in Device
    manager because they are not used. I have Windows XP (Home on the laptops
    and Pro on the desktop) with SP2 though I am trying SP3, but I don't see
    anything in the docs that give me much hope.

    Ok, now the problem. Every so often, one of the computers (it's pretty
    random) drops its connection to the wireless. The icon in the system tray
    DOES NOT change or indicate that the connection has been lost, in fact, if
    you hover the mouse over it, it says it is connected and even gives the
    speed. However, on the computer that uses Foldershare, the foldershare icon
    changes to the not connected. In order to reconnect, I can change ANY
    setting in the Wireless Adapter Properties including meaningless changes like
    Authentication Type to Open from Auto or vice versa. (This is meaningless
    because if it is set to auto, it is using open and if it is set to open then
    the auto setting will just pick open). Same thing for changing Preamble from
    Auto to Long Only. I can also disconnect and reconnect. It is as if the
    connection just gets "lost" and needs a jiggle to get going. The other two
    computers remain connected. Sometimes (but not always) resetting the
    computer that lost its connection will kick one of the others off. I have
    tested with wired connnections just to be complete (seems to work), but that
    really isn't the point considering I need a wireless network.

    I am very certain it has something to do with the browser elections. In my
    Event Viewer I get a 5:06:30 message saying "The browser has forced an
    election on network \Device\NetBT_Tcpip_ ... because a master browser was
    stopped." There is another error also at 5:06:30 saying "The system detected
    that network adapter D-Link (or the Intel one) - was disconnected from the
    network, and the adapter's network configuration has been released." It goes
    on to blame the driver. After doing one of the resets above, a new event
    says that "The system detected that network adapter was connected to the
    network..." The fact that resetting one of the computers bumps another off
    makes me even more suspicous of the browser because that computer either
    requests the list or forces an election when it comes back online. I've
    tried stopping the Computer Browser service on one, two and all three
    computers but that doesn't seem to help.

    Do a search for "forced an election" and "wireless network" and you will see
    that dozens of other people have had this same problem on forums all over the
    Internet. No one ever addresses the browser election event and what affect
    it might be having, so I can't find a solution.

    I'm thinking something along these lines:
    -Is the browser election traffice different from normal traffic in a way
    that might be causing something (bigger packets, longer wait times, etc...)
    -Does the network adapter get a command to suspend or wait while the browser
    election is happening and is it not returning from this state?
    -Does the system stop responding to network traffice while doing the browser
    election in such a way that it loses its authentication?

    Is there a way to stop browser elections all together? I only share one
    printer and I'm perfectly happy to do it via IP address. Is there a hotfix
    or patch or something that fixes this?

    Please do not suggest replacing the Intel wireless. They are built into the
    laptops and I don't think it is too much to ask that the world's defacto
    standard operating system work properly with the world's defacto standard
    chipmaker in an implemenation by one of the world's largest PC makers. We
    are talking about $2.99 back-room knock-off parts here. This is Intel +
    Microsoft + Dell; there should be a way to make this work.

    If you do not think that the problem is the browser election, please explain
    the same time stamps on the browser election and the disconnection. Also,
    please explain how every other wireless issue people have seems to cause the
    icon in the system tray to properly update showing the dropped connection.
    I'm pretty sure that the reason the icon doesn't update is because the system
    doesn't know the connection has been dropped. This suggests that the system
    stops communicating properly with the network adapter and assumes everything
    is still fine.

    Even if you don't think it is the browser election, please humor me and tell
    me how to stop them so I can test my theory. If this sounds like it could be
    something else, I'd love to hear it. Murphy's Law is in full effect with
    these network drops and the wife is not happy (we both work from home some
    days) about losing tons of work due to a flakey wireless network.

    Sorry for the length, but I thought it would save everyone a lot of time to
    not go over the usual "Did you change the channel" ground. Thank you for any
    help you can provide.
     
    AGuyWithoutStability, Jun 25, 2008
    #1
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  2. "AGuyWithoutStability" <>
    wrote in message news:...
    > I am very certain it has something to do with the browser elections.


    No it isn't.

    > Event Viewer I get a 5:06:30 message saying "The browser has forced an
    > election on network \Device\NetBT_Tcpip_ ... because a master browser was
    > stopped."


    Doesn't matter.

    > Do a search for "forced an election" and "wireless network" and you will
    > see
    > that dozens of other people have had this same problem on forums all over
    > the
    > Internet.


    Then dozens of people don't know what is going on.
    The dropped connection is what causes the browser elections *Not* the other
    way around.

    >There is another error also at 5:06:30 saying "The system detected
    > that network adapter D-Link (or the Intel one) - was disconnected from the
    > network, and the adapter's network configuration has been released." It
    > goes
    > on to blame the driver.


    Microwave ovens and cordless phones can interferre with wireless networks.
    Some of them operate on the same band.

    > Please do not suggest replacing the Intel wireless. They are built into
    > the
    > laptops and I don't think it is too much to ask that the world's defacto
    > standard operating system work properly with the world's defacto standard
    > chipmaker in an implemenation by one of the world's largest PC makers.


    Actually it *is* too much to ask. I've been doing this for almost a decade.
    Incompatibilities happen constantly with every company. Heck, we just
    bought a video automation sytem (NBC TV Station) that probably cost more
    than your house, and when we asked for the Manual or documentation they
    said, "Oh,..uh,..yea,..it hasn't been written yet." Then when asking about
    some of the features in the software during the demo and training they said,
    "Oh,..uh,..yea,..it hasn't been finished yet."

    > Even if you don't think it is the browser election, please humor me and
    > tell
    > me how to stop them so I can test my theory. If this sounds like it could
    > be


    Here's three methods. Pick one. I like the first one because it is simple
    and I am usually lazy.

    Method 1: Use Microsoft Management Console (MMC) or Control Panel
    Windows NT 4.0 1. Click Start, point to Settings, click Control Panel, and
    then double-click Services.
    2. Click Computer Browser, click Properties, and then click Manual.
    3. Click OK, click Close, and then restart the browser service or
    restart the computer.

    Windows 2000 or later operating systems 1. Click Start, click Run, and then
    type services.msc
    2. Right-click the Computer Browser service, and then click
    Properties.
    3. In the Startup type list, select Manual, and then click OK.
    4. Right-click the Computer Browser service, and then click Restart.



    Method 2: Use Registry Editor
    Important This section, method, or task contains steps that tell you how to
    modify the registry. However, serious problems might occur if you modify the
    registry incorrectly. Therefore, make sure that you follow these steps
    carefully. For added protection, back up the registry before you modify it.
    Then, you can restore the registry if a problem occurs. For more information
    about how to back up and restore the registry, click the following article
    number to view the article in the Microsoft Knowledge Base:
    322756 (http://support.microsoft.com/kb/322756/) How to back up and restore
    the registry in Windows


    Windows 2000 1. Click Start, click Run, type Regedt32, and then click OK.
    2. Locate the following registry entry:
    HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\Browser\Parameters\
    3. Change the value to of MaintainServerList to No.
    4. Restart the computer.

    Windows NT and Windows XP 1. Click Start, click Run, type Regedt32, and then
    click OK.
    2. Locate the following registry entry:
    HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\Browser\Parameters\
    3. Change the value to of MaintainServerList to false.
    4. Restart the computer.
    If the value of
    HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\Browser\Parameters\
    MaintainServerList is No, this server is not a browser.

    If the value of
    HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\Browser\Parameters\
    MaintainServerList is Yes, this server becomes a browser.

    The Computer Browser service tries to contact the master browser to obtain a
    current browser list. If the Computer Browser service cannot find the master
    browser, it forces an election and is a candidate to become the master
    browser. Additionally, setting MaintainServerList to Yes causes an election
    to be generated when the browser starts.
    Method 3: Use the Service Controller (SC) utility
    You can use the command-line Service Controller utilities Sc.exe and
    Netsvc.exe to switch the start value of a service. You can find these
    utilities in the Windows 2000 Resource Kit You can also use these utilities
    to remotely start and stop a service.

    To disable the Browser service on a remote system type the following command
    at a command prompt:
    SC \\ServerName config Browser start= disabled
    Note The option name includes an equal sign followed by a blank character.


    --
    Phillip Windell
    www.wandtv.com

    The views expressed, are my own and not those of my employer, or Microsoft,
    or anyone else associated with me, including my cats.
    -----------------------------------------------------
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    http://www.isaserver.org/articles/ISA2004_AccessRules.html

    Troubleshooting Client Authentication on Access Rules in ISA Server 2004
    http://download.microsoft.com/download/9/1/8/918ed2d3-71d0-40ed-8e6d-fd6eeb6cfa07/ts_rules.doc

    Microsoft Internet Security & Acceleration Server: Partners
    http://www.microsoft.com/isaserver/partners/default.mspx

    Microsoft ISA Server Partners: Partner Hardware Solutions
    http://www.microsoft.com/forefront/edgesecurity/partners/hardwarepartners.mspx
    -----------------------------------------------------
     
    Phillip Windell, Jun 25, 2008
    #2
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  3. In the interest of space I've deleted some stuff...
    >


    > > Do a search for "forced an election" and "wireless network" and you will
    > > see
    > > that dozens of other people have had this same problem on forums all over
    > > the
    > > Internet.

    >
    > Then dozens of people don't know what is going on.
    > The dropped connection is what causes the browser elections *Not* the other
    > way around.


    How can a dropped connection cause a browser election? STARTING a
    connection causes a browser election. If the system DROPS a connection why
    would it try and start and election? (Yes, the other systems still on the
    network would have an election, but these error messages are on the system
    that loses the connection.) You can't have an election with no network. A
    computer without a network connection does not ask for a browse list nor does
    it force elections. These dozens of people who don't know what is going on
    always get this attitude from people who then go on to blame the microwave
    (isn't running) or the phone (no home cordless phone - actually no home phone
    at all, only cell phone). And finally when they can't figure it out give up
    and suggest buying new hardware. It CAN'T POSSIBLY be the browser, because
    they haven't been spoon fed that answer from reading someone else's stuff
    before.

    Guess what? Undiscovered problems happen all the time. When they do, you
    install special logging utilities until some engineer can analyze them and
    figure it out. That's how you get new hot-fixes and updates. It's not like
    nothing ever happens that isn't covered in Technet. That's why it has a
    subscription with constant updates.

    >
    > Microwave ovens and cordless phones can interferre with wireless networks.
    > Some of them operate on the same band.


    Um...yeah...thanks...never thought of that before...I'm clueless about all
    things wireless.

    >
    > > Please do not suggest replacing the Intel wireless. They are built into
    > > the
    > > laptops and I don't think it is too much to ask that the world's defacto
    > > standard operating system work properly with the world's defacto standard
    > > chipmaker in an implemenation by one of the world's largest PC makers.

    >
    > Actually it *is* too much to ask. I've been doing this for almost a decade.
    > Incompatibilities happen constantly with every company. Heck, we just
    > bought a video automation sytem (NBC TV Station) that probably cost more
    > than your house, and when we asked for the Manual or documentation they
    > said, "Oh,..uh,..yea,..it hasn't been written yet." Then when asking about
    > some of the features in the software during the demo and training they said,
    > "Oh,..uh,..yea,..it hasn't been finished yet."


    I fully understand the complexities of making everything work together
    particularly niche products or knock-offs built in Guatamala or whatever. I
    also get that can be especially difficult with brand new products or
    technology. We are talking about neither here. If stuff won't work with the
    majority of systems, then it doesn't work. No one has ever said XP doesn't
    support Intel wireless. You can't say, hey, here is a our working
    implementation of an electric car, but you can't plug it to anything execept
    for one of those Mars Rovers. Sure, it doesn't have to work with every
    electrical co-op under the sun, but it better work with ConEd.

    >
    > > Even if you don't think it is the browser election, please humor me and
    > > tell
    > > me how to stop them so I can test my theory. If this sounds like it could
    > > be

    >
    > Here's three methods. Pick one. I like the first one because it is simple
    > and I am usually lazy.
    >


    Thank you for your suggestions. I will try those. But, I guess if that
    fixes my problem it is still probably the microwave's fault.

    >
    >
    > --
    > Phillip Windell


    >
    > The views expressed, are my own and not those of my employer, or Microsoft,
    > or anyone else associated with me, including my cats.
    > -----------------------------------------------------
     
    AGuyWithoutStability, Jun 25, 2008
    #3
  4. "AGuyWithoutStability" <>
    wrote in message news:D...

    > How can a dropped connection cause a browser election? STARTING a
    > connection causes a browser election. If the system DROPS a connection
    > why
    > would it try and start and election?


    When the connection drops the Master Browser is no longer visible,...the
    machine that can no longer see the master browser attempts to force a
    browser election,...hence creating the event log you see.


    > Microwave ovens and cordless phones can interferre with wireless networks.
    > Some of them operate on the same band.


    > Um...yeah...thanks...never thought of that before...I'm clueless about all
    > things wireless.


    Are you here to argue and insult everybody or are you here to find a
    solution? We are not tech support people,..we don't get paid for this,...we
    do it for free because we enjoy it. Go turn off your Browser Service and
    satisfy yourself. When your problem still isn't solved (likely it won't be)
    then go call MS Support or your Nic manufacture's Tech Support and go bother
    them,...at least they get paid for it.


    --
    Phillip Windell
    www.wandtv.com

    The views expressed, are my own and not those of my employer, or Microsoft,
    or anyone else associated with me, including my cats.
    -----------------------------------------------------
     
    Phillip Windell, Jun 25, 2008
    #4
  5. Odd, I was trying to match your level of snarki-ness. "Well, they are all
    wrong"..."Doesn't matter"...etc...

    Apparently you feel that I went too far. If so, I appologize. However, it
    was my intention in writing up the long intro to not get the usual "wireless
    for dummies" responses like "cordless phones" and "neighbors interferring".
    I am now looking into two things in case it comes up for someone else.

    First, is SMB packets which are not necessarily well recieved and forwarded
    by all wireless routers.

    Second, is something about IRP size or something. Which also can be and
    issue.

    And lastly, the huge red flag here apparently is mixing Windows XP Pro with
    Windows XP Home especially if you don't go through and setup identical user
    name and password accounts on each machine.

    By the by, since disabling the browser (graduated to changing the
    MaintainServerList parameter to NO on all but one computer) my connections
    seem more stable, though they do still drop. However, they no longer drop
    with a browser error. Problem not solved, but hopefully one step closer.



    "Phillip Windell" wrote:

    > "AGuyWithoutStability" <>
    > wrote in message news:D...
    >
    > > How can a dropped connection cause a browser election? STARTING a
    > > connection causes a browser election. If the system DROPS a connection
    > > why
    > > would it try and start and election?

    >
    > When the connection drops the Master Browser is no longer visible,...the
    > machine that can no longer see the master browser attempts to force a
    > browser election,...hence creating the event log you see.
    >
    >
    > > Microwave ovens and cordless phones can interferre with wireless networks.
    > > Some of them operate on the same band.

    >
    > > Um...yeah...thanks...never thought of that before...I'm clueless about all
    > > things wireless.

    >
    > Are you here to argue and insult everybody or are you here to find a
    > solution? We are not tech support people,..we don't get paid for this,...we
    > do it for free because we enjoy it. Go turn off your Browser Service and
    > satisfy yourself. When your problem still isn't solved (likely it won't be)
    > then go call MS Support or your Nic manufacture's Tech Support and go bother
    > them,...at least they get paid for it.
    >
    >
    > --
    > Phillip Windell
    > www.wandtv.com
    >
    > The views expressed, are my own and not those of my employer, or Microsoft,
    > or anyone else associated with me, including my cats.
    > -----------------------------------------------------
    >
    >
    >
     
    AGuyWithoutStability, Jun 30, 2008
    #5
  6. "AGuyWithoutStability" <>
    wrote in message news:...
    > Odd, I was trying to match your level of snarki-ness. "Well, they are all
    > wrong"..."Doesn't matter"...etc...


    Probably just read emotions into my post that I wasn't really feeling,..it
    is a regular & common occurance in UseNet. The short resonses like "Doesn't
    matter" is just me being lazy about wanting to type a lot with my 3 or 4
    fingers. The "they are all wrong" thing is just me remembering all the
    times I was hunting for answers and waded through 1000's of messages that
    never reach a solution because whether it is good bad or indifferent the
    majority of people posting in bogs, forums, etc, don't have the answers when
    it comes to deeper things,...then after about three days you one across the
    one rare post that has the solution.

    > By the by, since disabling the browser (graduated to changing the
    > MaintainServerList parameter to NO on all but one computer) my connections
    > seem more stable, though they do still drop. However, they no longer drop
    > with a browser error. Problem not solved, but hopefully one step closer.


    Yes, that is what I would expect. They still do drop. Even if it seems more
    stabile they still do drop, so the elections were not the cause. The reason
    for the apparent added stability could simply be that there is a little less
    happening on the connection now than what there was,...or it just may not be
    consistant and it is just having a "good day" for the moment. There is no
    longer a browser event error following the drop because browser elections
    are for the most part disabled.

    So, although I am not going to be one of those rare posts with the real
    answer,...I still do not believe it is/was caused by browser elections. The
    election triggers were a symptom of the connection dropping and not the
    cause of connection dropping. My main reason for stubbornly pointing that
    out was to save you time from running needlessly down a dead end road for
    nothing.

    --
    Phillip Windell
    www.wandtv.com

    The views expressed, are my own and not those of my employer, or Microsoft,
    or anyone else associated with me, including my cats.
    -----------------------------------------------------
     
    Phillip Windell, Jul 1, 2008
    #6
  7. Got it fixed! I was kind of right. It was the browser elections (and the
    browser lists, and automatic updates, and virus file updates...) I'll type
    up a little bit here in case some poor schmuck comes along after me with the
    same problem.

    In order to get good reviews / put their best foot forward, virtually all
    wireless routers come pre-set for maximum performance. Sounds good. The
    catch is that very few environments can always make maximum performance work.
    When you turn on more than one computer in a network, it will trigger a
    browser election. This is handled by broadcasts. The smaller your network
    (both physical area and # of machines), the more likely it is that all the
    broadcasts hit the wireless router at the same time and then the router ends
    up missing one. When it does, it won't send the proper response to the
    computer who's request got missed and that computer will sit there and wait
    for it.

    That is why the icon in the system tray does not turn to "disconnected" it
    still is on the network, it is just waiting for a response that will never
    come before it does anything else. This can also happen if two computers are
    hitting the network hard in the same way, say like, if you have your
    automatic updates scheduled for the same time, or even if they are set to
    auto (because they'll end up picking the same time automatically).

    The key to this whole mess it the Advanced Settings in your wireless router
    configuration. In particular the RTS/CTS setting and the Fragmentation
    setting.
    I don't want to go on and on here because it doesn't seem to be the proper
    forum for it, but if you change those to RTS/CTS of 2304 and the
    fragmentation to 2306 your problem will likely be solved. If not, lower your
    beacon interval to 50. If that doesn't work, then you can take them down 10
    at a time (the beacon more like 3 at a time) to see where your network will
    stay solid. If never, then obviously you have a different issue. As my
    friend here would suggest, it's probably your microwave.

    If you want the full details, I did a write up at www.besthubris.com
    specifically at
    http://www.besthubris.com/personal/windows-randomly-disconnects-from-wireless-network/

    Now, that, is an answer.

    By the way, no problem, I was just hoping for something a little more and
    when I got the same old, same old, I was probably grumpier than I should have
    been. Peace out!








    "Phillip Windell" wrote:

    >
    > "AGuyWithoutStability" <>
    > wrote in message news:...
    > > Odd, I was trying to match your level of snarki-ness. "Well, they are all
    > > wrong"..."Doesn't matter"...etc...

    >
    > Probably just read emotions into my post that I wasn't really feeling,..it
    > is a regular & common occurance in UseNet. The short resonses like "Doesn't
    > matter" is just me being lazy about wanting to type a lot with my 3 or 4
    > fingers. The "they are all wrong" thing is just me remembering all the
    > times I was hunting for answers and waded through 1000's of messages that
    > never reach a solution because whether it is good bad or indifferent the
    > majority of people posting in bogs, forums, etc, don't have the answers when
    > it comes to deeper things,...then after about three days you one across the
    > one rare post that has the solution.
    >
    > > By the by, since disabling the browser (graduated to changing the
    > > MaintainServerList parameter to NO on all but one computer) my connections
    > > seem more stable, though they do still drop. However, they no longer drop
    > > with a browser error. Problem not solved, but hopefully one step closer.

    >
    > Yes, that is what I would expect. They still do drop. Even if it seems more
    > stabile they still do drop, so the elections were not the cause. The reason
    > for the apparent added stability could simply be that there is a little less
    > happening on the connection now than what there was,...or it just may not be
    > consistant and it is just having a "good day" for the moment. There is no
    > longer a browser event error following the drop because browser elections
    > are for the most part disabled.
    >
    > So, although I am not going to be one of those rare posts with the real
    > answer,...I still do not believe it is/was caused by browser elections. The
    > election triggers were a symptom of the connection dropping and not the
    > cause of connection dropping. My main reason for stubbornly pointing that
    > out was to save you time from running needlessly down a dead end road for
    > nothing.
    >
    > --
    > Phillip Windell
    > www.wandtv.com
    >
    > The views expressed, are my own and not those of my employer, or Microsoft,
    > or anyone else associated with me, including my cats.
    > -----------------------------------------------------
    >
    >
    >
     
    AGuyWithoutStability, Jul 2, 2008
    #7
  8. "AGuyWithoutStability" <>
    wrote in message news:...

    Glad to hear you got it straightened out.

    > In order to get good reviews / put their best foot forward, virtually all
    > wireless routers come pre-set for maximum performance.


    They are also for the most part "home user" products,...and you get what you
    pay for. A higher quality Wireless product designed for commercial
    environments is not going to be a (so-called) "router" because the idea is
    that you are probably going to have a $2000.00 - $10,000.00 firewall product
    already handling that part. A comercial grade WAP like some of the Cisco
    WAPs ($500.00 +/-) probably would handle things just fine as they are.

    > stay solid. If never, then obviously you have a different issue. As my
    > friend here would suggest, it's probably your microwave.


    With my cooking skills, the microwave is a dangerous tool,..possibly even a
    weapon,...beware of the Micorwave oven. They don't die easy,..I've proven
    they survive even an aluminum foil ball and keep right on going. I've seen
    it at it's ugliest. :)

    --
    Phillip Windell
    www.wandtv.com

    The views expressed, are my own and not those of my employer, or Microsoft,
    or anyone else associated with me, including my cats.
    -----------------------------------------------------
     
    Phillip Windell, Jul 3, 2008
    #8
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