Brasil on LInux/Open Source.....

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by steve, Mar 31, 2005.

  1. steve

    steve Guest

    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/29/technology/29computer.html?

    (free reg required to see entire article)

    Eaxtract (partial):

    Brazil: Free Software's Biggest and Best Friend
    By TODD BENSON

    Published: March 29, 2005

    ÃO PAULO, Brazil, March 28 - Since taking office two years ago,
    President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva has turned Brazil into a tropical
    outpost of the free software movement.

    Looking to save millions of dollars in royalties and licensing fees, Mr.
    da Silva has instructed government ministries and state-run companies to
    gradually switch from costly operating systems made by Microsoft and
    others to free operating systems, like Linux. On Mr. da Silva's watch,
    Brazil has also become the first country to require any company or
    research institute that receives government financing to develop
    software to license it as open-source, meaning the underlying software
    code must be free to all.

    Now Brazil's government looks poised to take its free software campaign
    to the masses. And once again Microsoft may end up on the sidelines.

    By the end of April, the government plans to roll out a much ballyhooed
    program called PC Conectado, or Connected PC, aimed at helping millions
    of low-income Brazilians buy their first computers.

    ...........

    "For this program to be viable, it has to be with free software," said
    Sérgio Amadeu, president of Brazil's National Institute of Information
    Technology, the agency that oversees the government's technology
    initiatives. "We're not going to spend taxpayers' money on a program so
    that Microsoft can further consolidate its monopoly. It's the
    government's responsibility to ensure that there is competition, and
    that means giving alternative software platforms a chance to prosper."


    .............

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    steve, Mar 31, 2005
    #1
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  2. steve wrote:
    > On Mr. da Silva's watch,
    > Brazil has also become the first country to require any company or
    > research institute that receives government financing to develop
    > software to license it as open-source, meaning the underlying software
    > code must be free to all.


    well thats a bit of a pain in the arse...

    > ..........
    > "For this program to be viable, it has to be with free software," said
    > Sérgio Amadeu, president of Brazil's National Institute of Information
    > Technology, the agency that oversees the government's technology
    > initiatives. "We're not going to spend taxpayers' money on a program so
    > that Microsoft can further consolidate its monopoly. It's the
    > government's responsibility to ensure that there is competition, and
    > that means giving alternative software platforms a chance to prosper."
    > ............


    heh, the fact that it's free and as good a quality isn't enough... they
    need govt interference... hmm, maybe the market doesnt want it?
     
    Dave - Dave.net.nz, Mar 31, 2005
    #2
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  3. steve

    AD. Guest

    On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 12:45:10 +1200, Dave - Dave.net.nz wrote:

    > steve wrote:
    >> On Mr. da Silva's watch,
    >> Brazil has also become the first country to require any company or
    >> research institute that receives government financing to develop
    >> software to license it as open-source, meaning the underlying software
    >> code must be free to all.

    >
    > well thats a bit of a pain in the arse...


    Why? If the public funds the development, why shouldn't the public have
    access to it?

    >
    >> ..........
    >> "For this program to be viable, it has to be with free software," said
    >> Sérgio Amadeu, president of Brazil's National Institute of Information
    >> Technology, the agency that oversees the government's technology
    >> initiatives. "We're not going to spend taxpayers' money on a program so
    >> that Microsoft can further consolidate its monopoly. It's the
    >> government's responsibility to ensure that there is competition, and
    >> that means giving alternative software platforms a chance to prosper."
    >> ............

    >
    > heh, the fact that it's free and as good a quality isn't enough... they
    > need govt interference... hmm, maybe the market doesnt want it?


    The wider context of that quote was to do with Brazil putting together a
    program of inexpensive computers and dial up internet access for the poor.

    They felt that the money would be better spent putting linux on those
    machines than Windows. They aren't mandating Linux, that's just what they
    are bundling with the machines.

    Currently the 'market' there for the most part just pirates Windows
    anyway, so it is entirely possible that the 'market' would choose more
    alternative platforms if they all had to pay for Windows.

    --
    Cheers
    Anton
     
    AD., Mar 31, 2005
    #3
  4. steve

    steve Guest

    Dave - Dave.net.nz wrote:
    > steve wrote:
    >
    >> On Mr. da Silva's watch, Brazil has also become the first country to
    >> require any company or research institute that receives government
    >> financing to develop software to license it as open-source, meaning
    >> the underlying software code must be free to all.

    >
    >
    > well thats a bit of a pain in the arse...
    >
    >> ..........
    >> "For this program to be viable, it has to be with free software," said
    >> Sérgio Amadeu, president of Brazil's National Institute of Information
    >> Technology, the agency that oversees the government's technology
    >> initiatives. "We're not going to spend taxpayers' money on a program
    >> so that Microsoft can further consolidate its monopoly. It's the
    >> government's responsibility to ensure that there is competition, and
    >> that means giving alternative software platforms a chance to prosper."
    >> ............

    >
    >
    > heh, the fact that it's free and as good a quality isn't enough... they
    > need govt interference... hmm, maybe the market doesnt want it?


    Maybe the market never had a real choice.......

    If you look around, you'll see humerous things that governments backed
    that are ubiquitous today.

    Like the Internet.


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    steve, Mar 31, 2005
    #4
  5. steve

    steve Guest

    AD. wrote:

    > Currently the 'market' there for the most part just pirates Windows
    > anyway, so it is entirely possible that the 'market' would choose more
    > alternative platforms if they all had to pay for Windows.


    Very true.

    Like me. When WinXP made paying for Windows both expansive and
    inevitable for all 9 of my systems......I moved all (but one) of them to
    Linux.




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    steve, Mar 31, 2005
    #5
  6. steve

    Gordon Guest

    Gordon, Mar 31, 2005
    #6
  7. steve

    Gordon Guest

    On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 12:45:10 +1200, Dave - Dave.net.nz wrote:

    > steve wrote:
    >> On Mr. da Silva's watch,
    >> Brazil has also become the first country to require any company or
    >> research institute that receives government financing to develop
    >> software to license it as open-source, meaning the underlying software
    >> code must be free to all.

    >
    > well thats a bit of a pain in the arse...


    Yours mate! The code has to be free, as in speech.

    After all the development could be from the code which is GPL.
    >
    >> ..........
    >> "For this program to be viable, it has to be with free software," said
    >> Sérgio Amadeu, president of Brazil's National Institute of Information
    >> Technology, the agency that oversees the government's technology
    >> initiatives. "We're not going to spend taxpayers' money on a program so
    >> that Microsoft can further consolidate its monopoly. It's the
    >> government's responsibility to ensure that there is competition, and
    >> that means giving alternative software platforms a chance to prosper."
    >> ............

    >
    > heh, the fact that it's free and as good a quality isn't enough... they
    > need govt interference... hmm, maybe the market doesnt want it?


    So what in the last ??? years in NZ has the market wanted in NZ?

    If the market ruled, then NZ would be really where ever one thinks it
    should not be.

    Government, democracy, is about balance. Any Kiwi Governemnet messes
    somethings up as I see it.

    Finally, does Barzil operate under a democracy?
     
    Gordon, Mar 31, 2005
    #7
  8. steve

    Axle Guest

    Gordon wrote:
    > On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 11:28:04 +1200, steve wrote:
    >
    >
    >>http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/29/technology/29computer.html?
    >>
    >>(free reg required to see entire article)
    >>

    >
    >
    > Free as in Speech, or Free as in we will tempt your wallet?
    >
    > Are you trolling?
    >
    > Has you wallet been tempted? Yet?
    >
    >
    >

    try bugmenot
     
    Axle, Mar 31, 2005
    #8
  9. In article <d2fh6q$oji$>, "Dave - Dave.net.nz" <> wrote:
    >steve wrote:
    >> On Mr. da Silva's watch,
    >> Brazil has also become the first country to require any company or
    >> research institute that receives government financing to develop
    >> software to license it as open-source, meaning the underlying software
    >> code must be free to all.

    >
    >well thats a bit of a pain in the arse...
    >

    *SNIP*

    Public funds, public code. What's so wrong with that? If you want to
    keep your code closed, find private money to fund its development.
    I'm personally unhappy that any tax money goes to using proprietary
    software in the public service when there are acceptable open-source
    alternatives.
    Fine, there's nothing OSS that's up to being the database for most
    government departments, but there's no excuse for having Windows and
    Office on every desktop.

    --
    Matthew Poole Auckland, New Zealand
    "Veni, vidi, velcro...
    I came, I saw, I stuck around"

    My real e-mail is mattATp00leDOTnet
     
    Matthew Poole, Mar 31, 2005
    #9
  10. steve

    C9H8O4 Guest

    "AD." <> wrote in message
    news:p...
    > On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 12:45:10 +1200, Dave - Dave.net.nz wrote:
    >
    >> steve wrote:
    >>> On Mr. da Silva's watch,
    >>> Brazil has also become the first country to require any company or
    >>> research institute that receives government financing to develop
    >>> software to license it as open-source, meaning the underlying software
    >>> code must be free to all.

    >>
    >> well thats a bit of a pain in the arse...

    >
    > Why? If the public funds the development, why shouldn't the public have
    > access to it?
    >
    >>

    *snip*

    Nice idea in theory but the reality is that Brazilian taxpayers will be
    funding development which will used by others outside the country. This is
    fine assuming Brazilan taxpayers are OK with the concept, I suspect they
    might not be. I'm not sure I'd be too happy to see the NZ government funding
    software development which then gets handed on a platter to another country
    or company to generate an income from.
     
    C9H8O4, Mar 31, 2005
    #10
  11. steve

    whoisthis Guest

    In article <424b90e1$1_2@127.0.0.1>,
    steve <> wrote:

    > AD. wrote:
    >
    > > Currently the 'market' there for the most part just pirates Windows
    > > anyway, so it is entirely possible that the 'market' would choose more
    > > alternative platforms if they all had to pay for Windows.

    >
    > Very true.
    >
    > Like me. When WinXP made paying for Windows both expansive and
    > inevitable for all 9 of my systems......I moved all (but one) of them to
    > Linux.
    >


    where as I understand that the cost of the operating system and
    applications is one of the smallest parts of computing. User
    productivity and support costs are the greatest cost there is with
    computers.
     
    whoisthis, Mar 31, 2005
    #11

  12. > Like me. When WinXP made paying for Windows both expansive and
    > inevitable for all 9 of my systems......I moved all (but one) of them to
    > Linux.


    Heh it was XP's scary licenses that drove me away

    (wheres my AOL account when I'm making a me too post???)
    --

    Hardware, n.: The parts of a computer system that can be kicked
     
    Shane (aka froggy), Mar 31, 2005
    #12
  13. steve

    steve Guest

    whoisthis wrote:
    > In article <424b90e1$1_2@127.0.0.1>,
    > steve <> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>AD. wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>Currently the 'market' there for the most part just pirates Windows
    >>>anyway, so it is entirely possible that the 'market' would choose more
    >>>alternative platforms if they all had to pay for Windows.

    >>
    >>Very true.
    >>
    >>Like me. When WinXP made paying for Windows both expansive and
    >>inevitable for all 9 of my systems......I moved all (but one) of them to
    >>Linux.

    >
    > where as I understand that the cost of the operating system and
    > applications is one of the smallest parts of computing. User
    > productivity and support costs are the greatest cost there is with
    > computers.


    That may be true for some low-skilled workers in an office, but I assure
    you there was no economic case for me using Windows on my home-built PCs.

    I suggest you price a PC, then price MS Windows and MS Office for that PC.

    Full copies - not upgrades.

    Unless you buy a fairly high-spec PC, that software alone will cost more
    than the computer.

    Whereas.....get Linux and Open Office typicaly comes with it and both
    can be had for $0 or close to it.......for one or 100 or 1 million
    systems.

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    steve, Mar 31, 2005
    #13
  14. steve

    steve Guest

    C9H8O4 wrote:

    > Nice idea in theory but the reality is that Brazilian taxpayers will be
    > funding development which will used by others outside the country. This is
    > fine assuming Brazilan taxpayers are OK with the concept, I suspect they
    > might not be. I'm not sure I'd be too happy to see the NZ government funding
    > software development which then gets handed on a platter to another country
    > or company to generate an income from.


    But NZ gets to benefit similarly from the work of others......for free.

    What goes 'round, comes 'round.

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    steve, Mar 31, 2005
    #14
  15. steve

    steve Guest

    Gordon wrote:
    > On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 11:28:04 +1200, steve wrote:
    >
    >
    >>http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/29/technology/29computer.html?
    >>
    >>(free reg required to see entire article)

    >
    > Free as in Speech, or Free as in we will tempt your wallet?


    Free as in they want no money.

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    steve, Mar 31, 2005
    #15
  16. steve

    C9H8O4 Guest

    "steve" <> wrote in message
    news:424bb4eb$1_1@127.0.0.1...
    > C9H8O4 wrote:
    >
    >> Nice idea in theory but the reality is that Brazilian taxpayers will be
    >> funding development which will used by others outside the country. This
    >> is fine assuming Brazilan taxpayers are OK with the concept, I suspect
    >> they might not be. I'm not sure I'd be too happy to see the NZ government
    >> funding software development which then gets handed on a platter to
    >> another country or company to generate an income from.

    >
    > But NZ gets to benefit similarly from the work of others......for free.
    >
    > What goes 'round, comes 'round.
    >
    > ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
    > News==----
    > http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+
    > Newsgroups
    > ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption
    > =----


    A very tenous argument. I am assuming that the Brazilian government is
    aiming to lift the standard of living for their citizens, to do this they
    will require money and in substantial quantities. If they develop The Next
    Big Software Thing and are silly enough to do so under a system which allows
    others to instantaneously take their hard work and use it for themselves
    without compensating the Brazilain government I don't really see too much
    cause for celebration. And it's not as if they can build a services business
    around something a la Red Hat is it ? If I was a citizen in Brazil I'd be
    demanding the government protect the hell out of anything that's developed
    with the assistance of my tax dollar and that it's licensed for vast sums of
    money to as many people as possible.

    Bugger "what goes around comes around", that's not going to put food on the
    tables in the Sao Paulo slums is it ? Philanthropy is for people who aren't
    starving.
     
    C9H8O4, Mar 31, 2005
    #16
  17. steve

    Impossible Guest

    "C9H8O4" <> wrote in message
    news:VSQ2e.14394$...
    > "steve" <> wrote in message
    > news:424bb4eb$1_1@127.0.0.1...
    >> C9H8O4 wrote:
    >>
    >>> Nice idea in theory but the reality is that Brazilian taxpayers
    >>> will be funding development which will used by others outside the
    >>> country. This is fine assuming Brazilan taxpayers are OK with the
    >>> concept, I suspect they might not be. I'm not sure I'd be too
    >>> happy to see the NZ government funding software development which
    >>> then gets handed on a platter to another country or company to
    >>> generate an income from.

    >>
    >> But NZ gets to benefit similarly from the work of others......for
    >> free.
    >>
    >> What goes 'round, comes 'round.
    >>


    > A very tenous argument. I am assuming that the Brazilian government
    > is aiming to lift the standard of living for their citizens, to do
    > this they will require money and in substantial quantities. If they
    > develop The Next Big Software Thing and are silly enough to do so
    > under a system which allows others to instantaneously take their
    > hard work and use it for themselves without compensating the
    > Brazilain government I don't really see too much cause for
    > celebration. And it's not as if they can build a services business
    > around something a la Red Hat is it ? If I was a citizen in Brazil
    > I'd be demanding the government protect the hell out of anything
    > that's developed with the assistance of my tax dollar and that it's
    > licensed for vast sums of money to as many people as possible.


    The way the Brazilian government is going to help improve living
    standards in that country is by investing in public goods like
    education and information technology. That's what the "Connected PC"
    program there is all about. The positive downstream effects of this
    throughout the Brazilian economy will be far greater than anything you
    can imagine flowing out of some software licensing scheme. Just how
    many customers do you really think there are for a Portuguese-language
    library database program configured specifically to meet the needs of
    the Brazilian university system?
    >
    > Bugger "what goes around comes around", that's not going to put food
    > on the tables in the Sao Paulo slums is it ? Philanthropy is for
    > people who aren't starving.


    If you think government investment in education and information
    technology is "philanthropy" then you have no understanding of
    economic development policy whatsoever.
     
    Impossible, Mar 31, 2005
    #17
  18. steve

    C9H8O4 Guest

    "Impossible" <> wrote in message
    news:p...
    > "C9H8O4" <> wrote in message
    > news:VSQ2e.14394$...
    >> "steve" <> wrote in message
    >> news:424bb4eb$1_1@127.0.0.1...
    >>> C9H8O4 wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Nice idea in theory but the reality is that Brazilian taxpayers will be
    >>>> funding development which will used by others outside the country. This
    >>>> is fine assuming Brazilan taxpayers are OK with the concept, I suspect
    >>>> they might not be. I'm not sure I'd be too happy to see the NZ
    >>>> government funding software development which then gets handed on a
    >>>> platter to another country or company to generate an income from.
    >>>
    >>> But NZ gets to benefit similarly from the work of others......for free.
    >>>
    >>> What goes 'round, comes 'round.
    >>>

    >
    >> A very tenous argument. I am assuming that the Brazilian government is
    >> aiming to lift the standard of living for their citizens, to do this they
    >> will require money and in substantial quantities. If they develop The
    >> Next Big Software Thing and are silly enough to do so under a system
    >> which allows others to instantaneously take their hard work and use it
    >> for themselves without compensating the Brazilain government I don't
    >> really see too much cause for celebration. And it's not as if they can
    >> build a services business around something a la Red Hat is it ? If I was
    >> a citizen in Brazil I'd be demanding the government protect the hell out
    >> of anything that's developed with the assistance of my tax dollar and
    >> that it's licensed for vast sums of money to as many people as possible.

    >
    > The way the Brazilian government is going to help improve living standards
    > in that country is by investing in public goods like education and
    > information technology. That's what the "Connected PC" program there is
    > all about. The positive downstream effects of this throughout the
    > Brazilian economy will be far greater than anything you can imagine
    > flowing out of some software licensing scheme. Just how many customers do
    > you really think there are for a Portuguese-language library database
    > program configured specifically to meet the needs of the Brazilian
    > university system?
    >>
    >> Bugger "what goes around comes around", that's not going to put food on
    >> the tables in the Sao Paulo slums is it ? Philanthropy is for people who
    >> aren't starving.

    >
    > If you think government investment in education and information technology
    > is "philanthropy" then you have no understanding of economic development
    > policy whatsoever.
    >


    You missed the point entirely. I applaud the Brazilian government's actions
    in helping lift the IT literacy of their population, whether they choose to
    do so via open or closed source systems is immaterial in my view. The point
    I was taking issue with was AD's "if the public funds the development, why
    shouldn't the public have access to it?" comment. I stand by my comments.
     
    C9H8O4, Mar 31, 2005
    #18
  19. steve

    AD. Guest

    On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 19:51:14 +1200, whoisthis wrote:

    > where as I understand that the cost of the operating system and
    > applications is one of the smallest parts of computing. User productivity
    > and support costs are the greatest cost there is with computers.


    For businesses maybe, but to a poor Brazilian home user I imagine it being
    the other way around.

    --
    Cheers
    Anton
     
    AD., Mar 31, 2005
    #19
  20. steve

    AD. Guest

    On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 07:18:54 +1200, C9H8O4 wrote:

    > The point I was taking issue with was AD's "if the public funds the
    > development, why shouldn't the public have access to it?" comment. I stand
    > by my comments.


    Yeah I was going to add a point about 'which public' are we talking about
    on my original post, but couldn't figure out an elegant way of stating it.

    It is a valid point, but I just stuck to the general case.

    But the same things happens with a lot of other government funded
    scientific research - it gets published and other countries can take
    advantage of it.

    The governments funding research are just hoping their country gets more
    out of it than they put into it, and if others can too well that not too
    big a deal. After all their research is building on the results of other
    countries research. If this swapping of information dries up, then
    everyones research is going to be harder.

    Don't forget that the web was originally designed for this sharing of info
    between scientists.

    I also think the Brazilian governments desire to fund development mostly
    stems from localisation issues (at least at first) - there aren't a lot of
    other Portuguese speaking countries out there to leach off.

    And they did use the broader term 'open source' rather than 'free
    software'. Who knows what kinds of licenses they actually require - they
    might end up having pro Brazilian terms in them. But I kinda doubt that.
    Or they might use BSD style licenses and only Brazilian companies can get
    the code directly.

    --
    Cheers
    Anton
     
    AD., Mar 31, 2005
    #20
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