Brasil goes Open-Source

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by steve, Nov 18, 2003.

  1. steve

    steve Guest

    New Zealand risks missing out. While our government confies itself to
    screwing Microsoft down for better volume pricing for civil servants,
    countries looking to move to an information economy are adopting
    open-source as they way they can regain control of computing technology now
    closed to them by Microsoft's global monopoly of key platforms.

    http://www.wired.com/news/infostructure/0,1377,61257,00.html?tw=newsletter_topstories_html

    Brazil Gives Nod to Open Source

    Associated Press Page 1 of 1

    10:07 AM Nov. 16, 2003 PT

    BRASILIA, Brazil -- If he is to make good on his promise to improve life for
    the tens of millions of Brazilians who live in dire poverty, President Luiz
    Inacio Lula da Silva knows that one key challenge is to bridge a massive
    technology gap. And if that means shunning Microsoft software in South
    America's largest country, then so be it.

    Silva's top technology officer wants to transform the land of samba and
    Carnival into a tech-savvy nation where everyone from schoolchildren to
    government bureaucrats uses open-source software instead of costly Windows
    products.

    Such a policy makes eminent sense for a developing country where a mere 10
    percent of the 170 million people have computers at home and where the
    debt-laden government is the nation's biggest computer buyer, says Sergio
    Amadeu, the open-source enthusiast appointed to head Brazil's National
    Information Technology Institute by Silva after the president took office
    this year.

    Paying software licensing fees to companies like Microsoft is simply
    "unsustainable economically" when applications that run on the open-source
    Linux operating system are much cheaper, Amadeu said. Under his guidance,
    Silva's administration is encouraging all sectors of government to move
    toward open-source programs, whose basic code is public and freely
    available.

    "We have some islands in the federal government using open-source, but we
    want to create a continent," said Amadeu, a former economics professor who
    gained fame before joining Silva's team by launching a network of free
    computer centers in Brazil's largest city, Sao Paulo.

    <......the rest is on the web site....>




    --
    Best Regards,
    Steve Withers
    defenestrate: The act of throwing Windows out the window and replacing it on
    your PC with some other operating system.
    steve, Nov 18, 2003
    #1
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  2. On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 13:46:37 +1300, steve <> wrote:

    >New Zealand risks missing out. While our government confies itself to
    >screwing Microsoft down for better volume pricing for civil servants,
    >countries looking to move to an information economy are adopting
    >open-source as they way they can regain control of computing technology now
    >closed to them by Microsoft's global monopoly of key platforms.


    If you have a choice -i.e. Mac, Linux or any other OS that someone
    develops, then it's popularity, not a monopoly.

    >http://www.wired.com/news/infostructure/0,1377,61257,00.html?tw=newsletter_topstories_html
    >
    >Brazil Gives Nod to Open Source


    Makes sense, if you can't afford a BMW, drive a Lada.
    J.R. \Bob\ Dobbs, Nov 18, 2003
    #2
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  3. steve

    steve Guest

    J.R. "Bob" Dobbs allegedly said:

    > On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 13:46:37 +1300, steve <> wrote:
    >
    >>New Zealand risks missing out. While our government confies itself to
    >>screwing Microsoft down for better volume pricing for civil servants,
    >>countries looking to move to an information economy are adopting
    >>open-source as they way they can regain control of computing technology
    >>now closed to them by Microsoft's global monopoly of key platforms.

    >
    > If you have a choice -i.e. Mac, Linux or any other OS that someone
    > develops, then it's popularity, not a monopoly.


    The US and European Courts disagree with you. Sorry.

    >>http://www.wired.com/news/infostructure/0,1377,61257,00.html?tw=newsletter_topstories_html
    >>
    >>Brazil Gives Nod to Open Source

    >
    > Makes sense, if you can't afford a BMW, drive a Lada.


    Make your own BMW is more to the point.

    --
    Best Regards,
    Steve Withers
    defenestrate: The act of throwing Windows out the window and replacing it on
    your PC with some other operating system.
    steve, Nov 18, 2003
    #3
  4. steve

    Warwick Guest

    On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 01:32:44 GMT, "J.R. \"Bob\" Dobbs"
    <> wrote:

    >On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 13:46:37 +1300, steve <> wrote:
    >
    >>New Zealand risks missing out. While our government confies itself to
    >>screwing Microsoft down for better volume pricing for civil servants,
    >>countries looking to move to an information economy are adopting
    >>open-source as they way they can regain control of computing technology now
    >>closed to them by Microsoft's global monopoly of key platforms.

    >
    >If you have a choice -i.e. Mac, Linux or any other OS that someone
    >develops, then it's popularity, not a monopoly.
    >
    >>http://www.wired.com/news/infostructure/0,1377,61257,00.html?tw=newsletter_topstories_html
    >>
    >>Brazil Gives Nod to Open Source

    >
    >Makes sense, if you can't afford a BMW, drive a Lada.


    Not the best analogy I have heard.
    One car you are allowed to look under the bonnet, the other one you
    cant.

    If windows were a beemer its got a truck and traler tied permanantly
    to the tow bar. Great for long trips, pain in the arse if you just
    want to pop down the dairy for a packet of smokes.

    cheers
    Warwick, Nov 18, 2003
    #4
  5. On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 13:46:37 +1300, steve <> wrote:

    >New Zealand risks missing out. While our government confies itself to
    >screwing Microsoft down for better volume pricing for civil servants,
    >countries looking to move to an information economy are adopting
    >open-source as they way they can regain control of computing technology now
    >closed to them by Microsoft's global monopoly of key platforms.


    If you have a choice -i.e. Mac, Linux or any other OS that someone
    develops, then it's popularity, not a monopoly.

    >http://www.wired.com/news/infostructure/0,1377,61257,00.html?tw=newsletter_topstories_html
    >
    >Brazil Gives Nod to Open Source


    Makes sense, if you can't afford a BMW, drive a Lada.
    J.R. \Bob\ Dobbs, Nov 18, 2003
    #5
  6. In article <>, wrote:
    >On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 13:46:37 +1300, steve <> wrote:
    >>New Zealand risks missing out. While our government confies itself to
    >>screwing Microsoft down for better volume pricing for civil servants,
    >>countries looking to move to an information economy are adopting
    >>open-source as they way they can regain control of computing technology now
    >>closed to them by Microsoft's global monopoly of key platforms.

    >
    >If you have a choice -i.e. Mac, Linux or any other OS that someone
    >develops, then it's popularity, not a monopoly.
    >
    >>http://www.wired.com/news/infostructure/0,1377,61257,00.html?tw=newsletter_top

    >stories_html
    >>
    >>Brazil Gives Nod to Open Source

    >
    >Makes sense, if you can't afford a BMW, drive a Lada.


    In my experience, ladas are more reliable than bmws .. by a long way.
    YMMV of course :)

    Bruce


    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to
    think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone´s fault.
    If it was Us, what did that make Me ? After all, I´m one of Us. I must be.
    I´ve certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No-one ever thinks
    of themselves as one of Them. We´re always one of Us. It´s Them that do
    the bad things. <=> Terry Pratchett. Jingo.
    Bruce Sinclair, Nov 18, 2003
    #6
  7. steve

    Evil Bastard Guest

    On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 02:32:05 +0000, J.R. "Bob" Dobbs wrote:

    >>Brazil Gives Nod to Open Source

    >
    > Makes sense, if you can't afford a BMW, drive a Lada.


    I think that if the NZ govt was issuing $500 Prada designer pens to all
    its civil servants, the taxpayers would have something to say.

    But the same is being done in software, and barely a whisper.
    Evil Bastard, Nov 18, 2003
    #7
  8. steve

    steve Guest

    Evil Bastard allegedly said:

    > On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 02:32:05 +0000, J.R. "Bob" Dobbs wrote:
    >
    >>>Brazil Gives Nod to Open Source

    >>
    >> Makes sense, if you can't afford a BMW, drive a Lada.

    >
    > I think that if the NZ govt was issuing $500 Prada designer pens to all
    > its civil servants, the taxpayers would have something to say.
    >
    > But the same is being done in software, and barely a whisper.


    Whewther or not Windows XP is a BMW or a clunker that is stolen often and
    needs repair almost daily is open to debate.

    With Open Source you can make your own "BMW".....or something even better.

    --
    Best Regards,
    Steve Withers
    defenestrate: The act of throwing Windows out the window and replacing it on
    your PC with some other operating system.
    steve, Nov 18, 2003
    #8
  9. In article <>,
    "J.R. \"Bob\" Dobbs" <> wrote:

    > On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 13:46:37 +1300, steve <> wrote:
    > >Brazil Gives Nod to Open Source

    > Makes sense, if you can't afford a BMW, drive a Lada.


    That'd be fine, if Microsoft's products were the equivalent of a BMW.
    But they palpably are not. The security systems of a BMW make them hard
    to break into - it takes quite a bit more than a coathanger to break
    into a BMW, and quite a bit less than a virtual coathanger to do the
    same to Windows.
    Laurie Fleming, Nov 18, 2003
    #9
  10. steve

    whoisthis Guest

    In article <pan.2003.11.18.03.33.01.642704@127.0.0.1>,
    Evil Bastard <postmaster@127.0.0.1> wrote:

    > On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 02:32:05 +0000, J.R. "Bob" Dobbs wrote:
    >
    > >>Brazil Gives Nod to Open Source

    > >
    > > Makes sense, if you can't afford a BMW, drive a Lada.

    >
    > I think that if the NZ govt was issuing $500 Prada designer pens to all
    > its civil servants, the taxpayers would have something to say.
    >
    > But the same is being done in software, and barely a whisper.
    >
    >


    No,The flip side would be that the tax payer would winge about the loss
    in productivity because they were not compatable with their main
    contacts. They would also bitch about the increased costs in IT support.

    The most expensive part of a computer is the user, if you can make the
    user just 2% more productive (ie about 1 hour a week), over 50 weeks a
    year the computer AND software get paid for over a 3-4 year period.
    whoisthis, Nov 18, 2003
    #10
  11. On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 18:58:10 +1300, Laurie Fleming
    <> wrote:

    >In article <>,
    > "J.R. \"Bob\" Dobbs" <> wrote:
    >
    >> On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 13:46:37 +1300, steve <> wrote:
    >> >Brazil Gives Nod to Open Source

    >> Makes sense, if you can't afford a BMW, drive a Lada.

    >
    >That'd be fine, if Microsoft's products were the equivalent of a BMW.
    >But they palpably are not. The security systems of a BMW make them hard
    >to break into - it takes quite a bit more than a coathanger to break
    >into a BMW, and quite a bit less than a virtual coathanger to do the
    >same to Windows.


    Of course, when cars were at the equivalent years of developmental
    maturity, they didn't have keyed ignitions or locks on the doors.

    Don't like Microsoft? Fine, use someone elses' software.
    J.R. \Bob\ Dobbs, Nov 18, 2003
    #11
  12. On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 16:59:42 +1300, steve <> wrote:

    >Evil Bastard allegedly said:
    >
    >> On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 02:32:05 +0000, J.R. "Bob" Dobbs wrote:
    >>
    >>>>Brazil Gives Nod to Open Source
    >>>
    >>> Makes sense, if you can't afford a BMW, drive a Lada.

    >>
    >> I think that if the NZ govt was issuing $500 Prada designer pens to all
    >> its civil servants, the taxpayers would have something to say.
    >>
    >> But the same is being done in software, and barely a whisper.

    >
    >Whewther or not Windows XP is a BMW or a clunker that is stolen often and
    >needs repair almost daily is open to debate.
    >
    >With Open Source you can make your own "BMW".....or something even better.


    Don't get me wrong, I'm rooting for Linux -but you still need to be a
    "mechanic" to use it.

    Open source is a great way of throwing the fear of god (consumers)
    into to big SW companies -that's not a bad thing.
    J.R. \Bob\ Dobbs, Nov 18, 2003
    #12
  13. steve

    Peter Guest

    steve wrote:
    > BRASILIA, Brazil -- If he is to make good on his promise to improve life
    > for the tens of millions of Brazilians who live in dire poverty, President
    > Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva knows that one key challenge is to bridge a
    > massive technology gap. And if that means shunning Microsoft software in
    > South America's largest country, then so be it.
    >
    > Silva's top technology officer wants to transform the land of samba and
    > Carnival into a tech-savvy nation where everyone from schoolchildren to
    > government bureaucrats uses open-source software instead of costly Windows
    > products.


    Of course, moving to open source isn't free. (Well, it is free as in
    freedom, but may cost some in $ or time.) The big difference though, is
    that any costs to install and support open source will go to creating jobs
    for Brazil citizens. This is _much_ better for Brazil than having
    $million$ syphoned off overseas.


    Peter
    Peter, Nov 18, 2003
    #13
  14. steve

    steve Guest

    Peter allegedly said:

    > Of course, moving to open source isn't free. (Well, it is free as in
    > freedom, but may cost some in $ or time.) The big difference though, is
    > that any costs to install and support open source will go to creating jobs
    > for Brazil citizens. This is _much_ better for Brazil than having
    > $million$ syphoned off overseas.


    That it. You've got it. :)

    --
    Best Regards,
    Steve Withers
    defenestrate: The act of throwing Windows out the window and replacing it on
    your PC with some other operating system.
    steve, Nov 18, 2003
    #14
  15. steve

    steve Guest

    Re: Brasil goes Open-Source_ So what, ! we are in New Zealand..

    Gregory Parker allegedly said:

    >


    Think: "Example"

    .....and we should be grabbing this opportunity to develop our own
    information economy withg both hands.

    Just like Brasil.

    --
    Best Regards,
    Steve Withers
    defenestrate: The act of throwing Windows out the window and replacing it on
    your PC with some other operating system.
    steve, Nov 18, 2003
    #15
  16. steve

    steve Guest

    whoisthis allegedly said:

    > In article <pan.2003.11.18.03.33.01.642704@127.0.0.1>,
    > Evil Bastard <postmaster@127.0.0.1> wrote:
    >
    >> On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 02:32:05 +0000, J.R. "Bob" Dobbs wrote:
    >>
    >> >>Brazil Gives Nod to Open Source
    >> >
    >> > Makes sense, if you can't afford a BMW, drive a Lada.

    >>
    >> I think that if the NZ govt was issuing $500 Prada designer pens to all
    >> its civil servants, the taxpayers would have something to say.
    >>
    >> But the same is being done in software, and barely a whisper.

    >
    > No,The flip side would be that the tax payer would winge about the loss
    > in productivity because they were not compatable with their main
    > contacts. They would also bitch about the increased costs in IT support.


    If you move away from Microsoft's file-format monopoly tricks, then
    interoperability won't be an issue becasue you'll be using open standards.

    Hey! Maybe Microsoft will be firced to support interoperability - for a
    change.

    > The most expensive part of a computer is the user, if you can make the
    > user just 2% more productive (ie about 1 hour a week), over 50 weeks a
    > year the computer AND software get paid for over a 3-4 year period.


    Sure....and for e-mail and word processing, a Linux user is at no
    disadvantage compared to a Windows user.

    If *really* you want, you can even run MS Outlook and MS Word on
    linux....and they run well.

    My daughter has done exactly that for the past year at college.

    No Windows required.

    --
    Best Regards,
    Steve Withers
    defenestrate: The act of throwing Windows out the window and replacing it on
    your PC with some other operating system.
    steve, Nov 18, 2003
    #16
  17. steve

    steve Guest

    J.R. "Bob" Dobbs allegedly said:

    > On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 16:59:42 +1300, steve <> wrote:
    >
    >>Evil Bastard allegedly said:
    >>
    >>> On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 02:32:05 +0000, J.R. "Bob" Dobbs wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>>Brazil Gives Nod to Open Source
    >>>>
    >>>> Makes sense, if you can't afford a BMW, drive a Lada.
    >>>
    >>> I think that if the NZ govt was issuing $500 Prada designer pens to all
    >>> its civil servants, the taxpayers would have something to say.
    >>>
    >>> But the same is being done in software, and barely a whisper.

    >>
    >>Whewther or not Windows XP is a BMW or a clunker that is stolen often and
    >>needs repair almost daily is open to debate.
    >>
    >>With Open Source you can make your own "BMW".....or something even better.

    >
    > Don't get me wrong, I'm rooting for Linux -but you still need to be a
    > "mechanic" to use it.


    Tell that to my 10 year old. Yes...I installed it. But since then I rarely
    touch it. She does e-mail, web-browsing and word processing, printing,
    playing CDs, messing with a graphics program (Corel Photopaint for
    linux)....no problems.

    > Open source is a great way of throwing the fear of god (consumers)
    > into to big SW companies -that's not a bad thing.


    Agreed. It's also a great way to assert control when tired of the global
    monopoly software extor...um...vendor.

    --
    Best Regards,
    Steve Withers
    defenestrate: The act of throwing Windows out the window and replacing it on
    your PC with some other operating system.
    steve, Nov 18, 2003
    #17
  18. You obviously have very little experience with either one of the 2
    operating systems. If you want to compare operating systems to vehicles
    then windows would be the toddlers trike, that was crudely hacked into a
    bicycle after a few years, then crudely hacked into a motorbike, then
    crudely hacked into a lada, but still based on that old toddlers trike
    chassis.

    Its DOS, with a kernel mode gui slapped on.

    Linux is like someone built a car right first time, based on solid
    principles, and every bit of growth or improvement is in line with its
    heritage and style.

    You dont have to be a mechanic to use linux. In fact windows dissapoints
    the user much more than linux does. Try copying a directory that
    contains open files, or files you dont have permission for in windows.
    As soon as windows comes across the first file it cant copy, it gives up
    right there, no option to continue on. Even installing alternative
    shells doesnt fix this, as it seems to be in the filesystem somewhere.

    The only answer is to boot up with knoppix really. Each time I have
    booted up in knoppix on-site, someone has heard of linux, and so I tell
    them about knoppix and they get a copy. People are disillusioned with
    windows, to a huge extent.

    Who knows where the bug is because all details of how this software
    works is secret.

    With linux such a directory copying operation continues copying like it
    should. It just works.

    To set up and administer, both are roughly as easy as each other.
    Actually no, linux must be much easier, cos people seem to set their
    systems up so they dont crash, they are resiliant to viruses and worms.

    The problem with windows is the user IS the administrator. Imagine
    running a computer as root. And then going online and surfing the net!

    To program for, linux is much easier. In fact, programming for unix in
    general follows the same pattern that has remained unchanged since it
    was first invented. Simple languages, with extensions provided by
    libraries. The stick to open standards, which makes planning and
    starting a project much easier. Because source is always available, you
    know exactly what something is capable of, and how it will work.

    In windows, they seem to change the whole style of programming with each
    release. The versions of C and C++ used to program windows are
    non-standard versions, with almost every datatype redefined, not just
    once, but again and again for each release of windows.

    Using windows libraries doesnt follow any standard pattern. Its almost
    like one has to learn a totally new programming language for each
    library. The method of dynamically linking is extremely ugly.

    And because the libraries are generally closed, one cant see exactly
    what its capable of, and how it works. This makes projects much more
    expensive as functional prototypes much be written to evaluate each
    technology that one may wish to use in a project.

    With linux one simply goes online and asks questions and gets answers,
    one can look at the source code, and one can look at the HOWTOs.

    With windows one must pay for MSDN, one must buy the books, one must go
    to the seminars.. Going the MS way is VERY expensive.

    People here, are rejecting windows very strongly, especially since
    Munich made their linux decision.

    Its the fact that programs like Word cant even open files from other
    versions of Word properly, but OpenOffice can!

    Its the fact that MS sees bugs in their code as a potential source of
    revenue. That they see security as a secondary industry rather than an
    important part of the operating system.

    The recent viruses especially started a big anti-ms wave, which greatly
    enhanced the profile of and interest in linux here.

    Its not only the cost of software development that people here cant
    accept, its the licensing costs. Companies I work with here have tried
    to ask MS what it would cost to get all their MS Software licensed, and
    MS didnt even know! They were themselves confused! Especially when it
    came to the 2000 Server and Exchange.

    And you dont even get good tech support when you do license it! The best
    tech support is not dealing with some MS head office trying to
    coordinate which Incident Support Handling Program you can afford. The
    best support is the kid who can come and just go in and fix things up
    for some pocket money. And this kid cant learn these skills in windows,
    cos he cant afford windows.

    The next generation of enthusiasts, professionals, programmers etc, are
    all going to be in the linux camp rather than the windows camp, and the
    users will follow.

    Noone here is buying any windows servers anymore. Its all linux, and
    things are working much smoother.

    Hell, we had less problems switching a domain from 2000 to linux than we
    did simply "upgrading" fron NT to 2000.

    We probably wont see huge desktop migrations until later, but it will
    happen.

    And it will be all good when it does because windows is a filthy piece
    of cobbled-together shit, that makes almost every IT process its
    involved in, much less inefficient and much more expensive than it
    should be.

    J.R. "Bob" Dobbs wrote:
    > On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 16:59:42 +1300, steve <> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>Evil Bastard allegedly said:
    >>
    >>
    >>>On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 02:32:05 +0000, J.R. "Bob" Dobbs wrote:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>>Brazil Gives Nod to Open Source
    >>>>
    >>>>Makes sense, if you can't afford a BMW, drive a Lada.
    >>>
    >>>I think that if the NZ govt was issuing $500 Prada designer pens to all
    >>>its civil servants, the taxpayers would have something to say.
    >>>
    >>>But the same is being done in software, and barely a whisper.

    >>
    >>Whewther or not Windows XP is a BMW or a clunker that is stolen often and
    >>needs repair almost daily is open to debate.
    >>
    >>With Open Source you can make your own "BMW".....or something even better.

    >
    >
    > Don't get me wrong, I'm rooting for Linux -but you still need to be a
    > "mechanic" to use it.
    >
    > Open source is a great way of throwing the fear of god (consumers)
    > into to big SW companies -that's not a bad thing.
    Kurt Häusler, Nov 18, 2003
    #18
  19. Re: Brasil goes Open-Source_ So what, ! we are in New Zealand..

    On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 20:52:58 +1300, steve <> wrote:

    >Gregory Parker allegedly said:
    >
    >>

    >
    >Think: "Example"
    >
    >....and we should be grabbing this opportunity to develop our own
    >information economy withg both hands.
    >
    >Just like Brasil.



    And what happends if the SCO wins is case..?
    Gregory Parker, Nov 18, 2003
    #19
  20. steve

    Peter Guest

    Re: Brasil goes Open-Source_ So what, ! we are in New Zealand..

    Gregory Parker wrote:
    >
    > And what happends if the SCO wins is case..?


    That's about a contractual dispute between SCO and IBM. AFAIK it has
    nothing to do with Brazil or New Zealand.

    Maybe you could elaborate?


    Peter
    Peter, Nov 18, 2003
    #20
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