Blu-Ray v. HD-DVD

Discussion in 'DVD Video' started by Guest, Jul 14, 2005.

  1. Guest

    Guest Guest

    It isn't really a question of which one is cheaper to manufacture. Both
    formats will be cheap enough. The real question is, what will be the impact
    on the factory cost of new DVD players--players that have to handle DVD's as
    well as Blue-Ray. Consider the range of formats facing the consumer
    today--without Blu-Ray:

    DVD
    DVD-R
    DVD-RW
    DVD+R
    DVD+RW
    DVD-RAM
    CD
    CD-R
    CD-RW

    And all these formats filled with mp3, wma, or other audio protocols. And
    let's not forget JPEG, Kodak Picture CD, mpeg4. Have I forgotten any?

    Norm Strong
     
    Guest, Jul 14, 2005
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Guest

    Tarkus Guest

    On 7/14/2005 8:30:45 AM, wrote:

    > It isn't really a question of which one is cheaper to manufacture. Both
    > formats will be cheap enough. The real question is, what will be the impact
    > on the factory cost of new DVD players--players that have to handle DVD's as
    > well as Blue-Ray. Consider the range of formats facing the consumer
    > today--without Blu-Ray:
    >
    > DVD
    > DVD-R
    > DVD-RW
    > DVD+R
    > DVD+RW
    > DVD-RAM
    > CD
    > CD-R
    > CD-RW
    >
    > And all these formats filled with mp3, wma, or other audio protocols. And
    > let's not forget JPEG, Kodak Picture CD, mpeg4. Have I forgotten any?


    DivX.
    --
    "I'm your huckleberry."

    Now playing: the radio.
     
    Tarkus, Jul 14, 2005
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Guest

    Guest Guest

    "Tarkus" <> wrote in message
    news:9.com...
    > On 7/14/2005 8:30:45 AM, wrote:
    >
    >> It isn't really a question of which one is cheaper to manufacture. Both
    >> formats will be cheap enough. The real question is, what will be the
    >> impact
    >> on the factory cost of new DVD players--players that have to handle DVD's
    >> as
    >> well as Blue-Ray. Consider the range of formats facing the consumer
    >> today--without Blu-Ray:
    >>
    >> DVD
    >> DVD-R
    >> DVD-RW
    >> DVD+R
    >> DVD+RW
    >> DVD-RAM
    >> CD
    >> CD-R
    >> CD-RW
    >>
    >> And all these formats filled with mp3, wma, or other audio protocols.
    >> And
    >> let's not forget JPEG, Kodak Picture CD, mpeg4. Have I forgotten any?

    >
    > DivX.


    Of course! Strangely enough, I just bought a Lite-On recorder that will do
    all the above except DVD-RAM. It also plays VCD and SVCD and has a big hard
    drive. I was skeptical about the recordable DVDs with audio files, so I
    made a DVD+RW disc with WMA VBR files at the highest compression rate
    offered by dbpoweramp. Not only did the Lite-On play them, but they didn't
    sound too bad. A rough calculation showed that I could put 260 hours of
    music on one disc using this type of compression!

    Norm Strong
     
    Guest, Jul 14, 2005
    #3
  4. Guest

    GMAN Guest

    In article <>, <> wrote:
    >It isn't really a question of which one is cheaper to manufacture. Both
    >formats will be cheap enough. The real question is, what will be the impact
    >on the factory cost of new DVD players--players that have to handle DVD's as
    >well as Blue-Ray. Consider the range of formats facing the consumer
    >today--without Blu-Ray:
    >
    >DVD
    >DVD-R
    >DVD-RW
    >DVD+R
    >DVD+RW
    >DVD-RAM
    >CD
    >CD-R
    >CD-RW


    Making a player today that is capable of playing all those is trivial and can
    be done on the cheap. You already can go to walmart or best buy and get $29
    players that almost cook your breakfast.

    SO adding playback of those formats in a Blu Ray or HD DVD player should be
    trivial

    >
    >And all these formats filled with mp3, wma, or other audio protocols. And
    >let's not forget JPEG, Kodak Picture CD, mpeg4. Have I forgotten any?
    >
    >Norm Strong
    >
    >
     
    GMAN, Jul 15, 2005
    #4
  5. Guest

    GMAN Guest

    In article <9.com>, wrote:
    >On 7/14/2005 8:30:45 AM, wrote:
    >
    >> It isn't really a question of which one is cheaper to manufacture. Both
    >> formats will be cheap enough. The real question is, what will be the impact
    >> on the factory cost of new DVD players--players that have to handle DVD's as
    >> well as Blue-Ray. Consider the range of formats facing the consumer
    >> today--without Blu-Ray:
    >>
    >> DVD
    >> DVD-R
    >> DVD-RW
    >> DVD+R
    >> DVD+RW
    >> DVD-RAM
    >> CD
    >> CD-R
    >> CD-RW
    >>
    >> And all these formats filled with mp3, wma, or other audio protocols. And
    >> let's not forget JPEG, Kodak Picture CD, mpeg4. Have I forgotten any?

    >
    >DivX.

    Why support a hack format?
     
    GMAN, Jul 15, 2005
    #5
  6. Guest

    Brent Geery Guest

    On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 06:40:19 GMT, (GMAN)
    wrote:

    > In article <9.com>, wrote:
    > >On 7/14/2005 8:30:45 AM, wrote:
    > >
    > >> It isn't really a question of which one is cheaper to manufacture. Both
    > >> formats will be cheap enough. The real question is, what will be the impact
    > >> on the factory cost of new DVD players--players that have to handle DVD's as
    > >> well as Blue-Ray. Consider the range of formats facing the consumer
    > >> today--without Blu-Ray:
    > >>
    > >> DVD
    > >> DVD-R
    > >> DVD-RW
    > >> DVD+R
    > >> DVD+RW
    > >> DVD-RAM
    > >> CD
    > >> CD-R
    > >> CD-RW
    > >>
    > >> And all these formats filled with mp3, wma, or other audio protocols. And
    > >> let's not forget JPEG, Kodak Picture CD, mpeg4. Have I forgotten any?

    > >
    > >DivX.

    > Why support a hack format?


    You must be new to DVD.

    DIVX was pay-per-view DVD based format from Circuit City and was
    a real threat to the open DVD standard in the early years of the
    format. It died, and as a joke, the hackers took the name
    "DivX ;-)" as a joke to name their new beta version MPEG4 based
    video compression format.

    --
    BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :)
     
    Brent Geery, Jul 15, 2005
    #6
  7. Guest

    Tarkus Guest

    On 7/14/2005 11:40:19 PM, GMAN wrote:

    > In article <9.com>, wrote:
    >>On 7/14/2005 8:30:45 AM, wrote:
    >>
    >>> It isn't really a question of which one is cheaper to manufacture.
    >>> Both formats will be cheap enough. The real question is, what will
    >>> be the impact on the factory cost of new DVD players--players that
    >>> have to handle DVD's as well as Blue-Ray. Consider the range of
    >>> formats facing the consumer today--without Blu-Ray:
    >>>
    >>> DVD
    >>> DVD-R
    >>> DVD-RW
    >>> DVD+R
    >>> DVD+RW
    >>> DVD-RAM
    >>> CD
    >>> CD-R
    >>> CD-RW
    >>>
    >>> And all these formats filled with mp3, wma, or other audio protocols.
    >>> And let's not forget JPEG, Kodak Picture CD, mpeg4. Have I
    >>> forgotten any?

    >>
    >>DivX.

    > Why support a hack format?


    Because said hack format is incredibly popular. The idea is to serve the
    customer, not to tell the customer what they should and shouldn't like.
    Alas, a lot of players already support the DivX format.

    A better question is, why do you care that it's a hacked format? Either
    it's a good codec or it's not. Who gives a shit how it got to be good?
    --
    "I was thinkin', I'm gonna take me some of these taters home with me."

    Now playing: the radio.
     
    Tarkus, Jul 15, 2005
    #7
  8. Guest

    Tarkus Guest

    On 7/15/2005 12:57:19 AM, Brent Geery wrote:

    > On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 06:40:19 GMT, (GMAN)
    > wrote:
    >
    >> In article <9.com>, wrote:
    >>>On 7/14/2005 8:30:45 AM, wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> It isn't really a question of which one is cheaper to manufacture.
    >>>> Both formats will be cheap enough. The real question is, what will
    >>>> be the impact on the factory cost of new DVD players--players that
    >>>> have to handle DVD's as well as Blue-Ray. Consider the range of
    >>>> formats facing the consumer today--without Blu-Ray:
    >>>>
    >>>> DVD
    >>>> DVD-R
    >>>> DVD-RW
    >>>> DVD+R
    >>>> DVD+RW
    >>>> DVD-RAM
    >>>> CD
    >>>> CD-R
    >>>> CD-RW
    >>>>
    >>>> And all these formats filled with mp3, wma, or other audio
    >>>> protocols. And let's not forget JPEG, Kodak Picture CD, mpeg4.
    >>>> Have I forgotten any?
    >>>
    >>>DivX.

    >> Why support a hack format?

    >
    > You must be new to DVD.
    >
    > DIVX was pay-per-view DVD based format from Circuit City and was
    > a real threat to the open DVD standard in the early years of the
    > format. It died, and as a joke, the hackers took the name
    > "DivX ;-)" as a joke to name their new beta version MPEG4 based
    > video compression format.


    Oh, it never occurred to me that he might be talking about THAT.
    If that's the case, disregard my previous reply. ;)
    --
    "This is Klahn's bodyguard - he is tough and ruthless.
    This is Klahn's chauffeur - he is rough and toothless."

    Now playing: the radio.
     
    Tarkus, Jul 15, 2005
    #8
  9. Guest

    GMAN Guest

    In article <>, wrote:
    >On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 06:40:19 GMT, (GMAN)
    >wrote:
    >
    >> In article <9.com>,

    > wrote:
    >> >On 7/14/2005 8:30:45 AM, wrote:
    >> >
    >> >> It isn't really a question of which one is cheaper to manufacture. Both
    >> >> formats will be cheap enough. The real question is, what will be the

    > impact
    >> >> on the factory cost of new DVD players--players that have to handle DVD's

    > as
    >> >> well as Blue-Ray. Consider the range of formats facing the consumer
    >> >> today--without Blu-Ray:
    >> >>
    >> >> DVD
    >> >> DVD-R
    >> >> DVD-RW
    >> >> DVD+R
    >> >> DVD+RW
    >> >> DVD-RAM
    >> >> CD
    >> >> CD-R
    >> >> CD-RW
    >> >>
    >> >> And all these formats filled with mp3, wma, or other audio protocols. And

    >
    >> >> let's not forget JPEG, Kodak Picture CD, mpeg4. Have I forgotten any?
    >> >
    >> >DivX.

    >> Why support a hack format?

    >
    >You must be new to DVD.
    >
    >DIVX was pay-per-view DVD based format from Circuit City and was
    >a real threat to the open DVD standard in the early years of the
    >format. It died, and as a joke, the hackers took the name
    >"DivX ;-)" as a joke to name their new beta version MPEG4 based
    >video compression format.
    >

    What in my post that it was a hack format made you think i was talking about
    the Circuit Shitty DIVX?

    It was NEVER a real threat since it was always a full screen rental format.
    Anyone serious about movies or OAR didnt buy into it.


    Support for mpeg4 would be ok since that is a published standard, DivX is not.
     
    GMAN, Jul 15, 2005
    #9
  10. Guest

    GMAN Guest

    In article <109mycljk83j5$9.com>, wrote:
    >On 7/14/2005 11:40:19 PM, GMAN wrote:
    >
    >> In article <9.com>,

    > wrote:
    >>>On 7/14/2005 8:30:45 AM, wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> It isn't really a question of which one is cheaper to manufacture.
    >>>> Both formats will be cheap enough. The real question is, what will
    >>>> be the impact on the factory cost of new DVD players--players that
    >>>> have to handle DVD's as well as Blue-Ray. Consider the range of
    >>>> formats facing the consumer today--without Blu-Ray:
    >>>>
    >>>> DVD
    >>>> DVD-R
    >>>> DVD-RW
    >>>> DVD+R
    >>>> DVD+RW
    >>>> DVD-RAM
    >>>> CD
    >>>> CD-R
    >>>> CD-RW
    >>>>
    >>>> And all these formats filled with mp3, wma, or other audio protocols.
    >>>> And let's not forget JPEG, Kodak Picture CD, mpeg4. Have I
    >>>> forgotten any?
    >>>
    >>>DivX.

    >> Why support a hack format?

    >
    >Because said hack format is incredibly popular. The idea is to serve the
    >customer, not to tell the customer what they should and shouldn't like.
    >Alas, a lot of players already support the DivX format.
    >
    >A better question is, why do you care that it's a hacked format? Either
    >it's a good codec or it's not. Who gives a shit how it got to be good?

    I dont care, but i bet the ones who own the rights and license to the mpeg4
    format sure do. DivX is pirated code.
     
    GMAN, Jul 15, 2005
    #10
  11. Guest

    Joshua Zyber Guest

    "GMAN" <> wrote in message
    news:db9d1i$151$...
    > What in my post that it was a hack format made you think i was talking
    > about
    > the Circuit Shitty DIVX?
    >
    > It was NEVER a real threat since it was always a full screen rental
    > format.
    > Anyone serious about movies or OAR didnt buy into it.


    It was a very real threat because at that time it was highly
    questionable how much of the population was serious about movies or OAR.
     
    Joshua Zyber, Jul 15, 2005
    #11
  12. Guest

    Tarkus Guest

    On 7/15/2005 3:24:57 PM, GMAN wrote:

    > I dont care, but i bet the ones who own the rights and license to the
    > mpeg4 format sure do. DivX is pirated code.


    If that's the case, why hasn't DivX been stopped? It's only getting more
    popular, and is showing up in more and more players.

    In any case, it's not my problem.
    --
    "There's nary an animal alive that can outrun a greased Scotsman."

    Now playing: "Ozzy Osbourne - Bark At The Moon"
     
    Tarkus, Jul 15, 2005
    #12
  13. Guest

    AZ Nomad Guest

    On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 22:27:00 GMT, Joshua Zyber <> wrote:


    >"GMAN" <> wrote in message
    >news:db9d1i$151$...
    >> What in my post that it was a hack format made you think i was talking
    >> about
    >> the Circuit Shitty DIVX?
    >>
    >> It was NEVER a real threat since it was always a full screen rental
    >> format.
    >> Anyone serious about movies or OAR didnt buy into it.


    >It was a very real threat because at that time it was highly
    >questionable how much of the population was serious about movies or OAR.


    No it wasn't. It wasn't the slightest threat. It was priced too high both the
    disks and players, too limited, and too much a pain in the ass. Nobody and I
    mean nobody was willing to have their player tied to a single central server
    which would decide when they could have the priveledge of playing their
    overpriced rental disks. Did CC even sell a 100 players?

    It was doomed to failure from the get-go.
     
    AZ Nomad, Jul 16, 2005
    #13
  14. Guest

    Joshua Zyber Guest

    "AZ Nomad" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >>> What in my post that it was a hack format made you think i was
    >>> talking
    >>> about
    >>> the Circuit Shitty DIVX?
    >>>
    >>> It was NEVER a real threat since it was always a full screen rental
    >>> format.
    >>> Anyone serious about movies or OAR didnt buy into it.

    >
    >>It was a very real threat because at that time it was highly
    >>questionable how much of the population was serious about movies or
    >>OAR.

    >
    > No it wasn't. It wasn't the slightest threat. It was priced too high
    > both the
    > disks and players, too limited, and too much a pain in the ass.
    > Nobody and I
    > mean nobody was willing to have their player tied to a single central
    > server
    > which would decide when they could have the priveledge of playing
    > their
    > overpriced rental disks. Did CC even sell a 100 players?
    >
    > It was doomed to failure from the get-go.


    In hindsight, yes that much appears evident now. At the time, it was
    very much unclear.
     
    Joshua Zyber, Jul 16, 2005
    #14
  15. Guest

    AZ Nomad Guest

    On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 02:06:38 GMT, Joshua Zyber <> wrote:


    >"AZ Nomad" <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >>>> What in my post that it was a hack format made you think i was
    >>>> talking
    >>>> about
    >>>> the Circuit Shitty DIVX?
    >>>>
    >>>> It was NEVER a real threat since it was always a full screen rental
    >>>> format.
    >>>> Anyone serious about movies or OAR didnt buy into it.

    >>
    >>>It was a very real threat because at that time it was highly
    >>>questionable how much of the population was serious about movies or
    >>>OAR.

    >>
    >> No it wasn't. It wasn't the slightest threat. It was priced too high
    >> both the
    >> disks and players, too limited, and too much a pain in the ass.
    >> Nobody and I
    >> mean nobody was willing to have their player tied to a single central
    >> server
    >> which would decide when they could have the priveledge of playing
    >> their
    >> overpriced rental disks. Did CC even sell a 100 players?
    >>
    >> It was doomed to failure from the get-go.


    >In hindsight, yes that much appears evident now. At the time, it was
    >very much unclear.



    Sheesh, I thought it was clear. "Let me get this straight: you have to
    buy the disks, can only play them over a 48 hour period and then throw them
    out?"

    Eventually something like DiVX will arrive in the form of DRM and high speed
    networks. However, it won't price-fixed to a single server. Expect to pay
    a quarter or so to watch a movie.
     
    AZ Nomad, Jul 16, 2005
    #15
  16. Guest

    Alpha Guest

    "GMAN" <> wrote in message
    news:db7lpp$ubo$...
    > In article <>,
    > <> wrote:
    >>It isn't really a question of which one is cheaper to manufacture. Both
    >>formats will be cheap enough. The real question is, what will be the
    >>impact
    >>on the factory cost of new DVD players--players that have to handle DVD's
    >>as
    >>well as Blue-Ray. Consider the range of formats facing the consumer
    >>today--without Blu-Ray:
    >>
    >>DVD
    >>DVD-R
    >>DVD-RW
    >>DVD+R
    >>DVD+RW
    >>DVD-RAM
    >>CD
    >>CD-R
    >>CD-RW

    >
    > Making a player today that is capable of playing all those is trivial and
    > can
    > be done on the cheap. You already can go to walmart or best buy and get
    > $29
    > players that almost cook your breakfast.
    >
    > SO adding playback of those formats in a Blu Ray or HD DVD player should
    > be
    > trivial



    It will NOT BE TRIVIAL. In fact it may be impossible. All of the formats
    you mentioned have the same physical disc. That is NOT TRUE between HD DVD
    and Blue Ray. That is why Blu Ray requires completely new production
    facilities and HD DVD does not.

    See below for the physical differences.....and do not expect dual formats
    anytime in the next 6 years:

    http://www.disctronics.co.uk/technology/hddvd/index.htm

    It is astonishing to me, GMAN, how glib you are about something you have not
    even read a dummies manual about.
     
    Alpha, Jul 16, 2005
    #16
  17. Guest

    Goro Guest

    Tarkus wrote:
    > On 7/15/2005 3:24:57 PM, GMAN wrote:
    >
    > > I dont care, but i bet the ones who own the rights and license to the
    > > mpeg4 format sure do. DivX is pirated code.

    >
    > If that's the case, why hasn't DivX been stopped? It's only getting more
    > popular, and is showing up in more and more players.


    You are correct; DivX is gaining popularity to the point where there is
    now talk of supporting DVD-style animating, audio menus to DivX (of
    corse, many of us considered the lack of menu in DivX as a FEATURE).
    My new Oppo DVD player with Fareodja DCDi upconverting to 720p + DVI
    out also supports DivX, MPEG, AVI. You'd think Apple would try to get
    Quicktime out there; i'm assumign that the reason no DVD players
    support QT is b/c of licensing costs/issues w/Apple.

    one thing i really really fear is that DivX becomes as popular as mp3
    in the audio world. I think we need to go Forward and get BETTER video
    quality, not worse.

    -goro-
     
    Goro, Jul 16, 2005
    #17
  18. Guest

    Tarkus Guest

    On 7/16/2005 1:55:13 PM, Alpha wrote:

    > "GMAN" <> wrote in message
    > news:db7lpp$ubo$...
    >> In article <>,
    >> <> wrote:
    >>> It isn't really a question of which one is cheaper to manufacture.
    >>> Both formats will be cheap enough. The real question is, what will
    >>> be the impact on the factory cost of new DVD players--players that
    >>> have to handle DVD's as well as Blue-Ray. Consider the range of
    >>> formats facing the consumer today--without Blu-Ray:
    >>>
    >>>DVD
    >>>DVD-R
    >>>DVD-RW
    >>>DVD+R
    >>>DVD+RW
    >>>DVD-RAM
    >>>CD
    >>>CD-R
    >>>CD-RW

    >>
    >> Making a player today that is capable of playing all those is trivial
    >> and can be done on the cheap. You already can go to walmart or best
    >> buy and get $29 players that almost cook your breakfast.
    >>
    >> SO adding playback of those formats in a Blu Ray or HD DVD player
    >> should be trivial

    >
    > It will NOT BE TRIVIAL. In fact it may be impossible. All of the
    > formats you mentioned have the same physical disc. That is NOT TRUE
    > between HD DVD and Blue Ray.


    So you're saying that CD, CD-R, CD-RW, DVD, DVD-R, DVD-RW, DVD+R, DVD+RW
    and DVD-RAM all use the same physical disc? So I can buy CD-Rs and burn
    a DVD9 on them?

    > That is why Blu Ray requires completely new production facilities and
    > HD DVD does not.


    That certainly doesn't mean players can't support both formats.
    --
    Homer: "Sometimes I think we're the worst family in town."
    Marge: "Maybe we should move to a larger community."

    Now playing: "Ted Nugent - Baby, Please Don't Go"
     
    Tarkus, Jul 16, 2005
    #18
  19. Guest

    Allan Guest

    On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 14:42:11 -0700, Tarkus <> wrote:

    >>
    >> It will NOT BE TRIVIAL. In fact it may be impossible. All of the
    >> formats you mentioned have the same physical disc. That is NOT TRUE
    >> between HD DVD and Blue Ray.

    >
    >So you're saying that CD, CD-R, CD-RW, DVD, DVD-R, DVD-RW, DVD+R, DVD+RW
    >and DVD-RAM all use the same physical disc? So I can buy CD-Rs and burn
    >a DVD9 on them?
    >
    >> That is why Blu Ray requires completely new production facilities and
    >> HD DVD does not.

    >
    >That certainly doesn't mean players can't support both formats.



    Sign up:

    http://www.petitiononline.com/combo/petition.html






    "Arguing with anonymous strangers on the Internet is a sucker's game
    because they almost always turn out to be -- or to be indistinguishable from
    -- self-righteous sixteen-year-olds possessing infinite amounts of free time."
    - Neil Stephenson, _Cryptonomicon_
     
    Allan, Jul 17, 2005
    #19
  20. Guest

    Jeff Rife Guest

    Alpha () wrote in alt.video.dvd:
    > It will NOT BE TRIVIAL. In fact it may be impossible. All of the formats
    > you mentioned have the same physical disc. That is NOT TRUE between HD DVD
    > and Blue Ray.


    Minus the fact that DVD and CD do *not* use the same disc (as others have
    pointed out), it should be trivial, as Pioneer long ago did a *much* harder
    job with their laserdisc/DVD combo players.

    These play CDs (including -R and -RW), DVDs (including ±R and ±RW), and
    laserdiscs. The change in focus and the vast range of reflectivity that
    must be correctly read that is required to pull this off makes any differences
    between HD-DVD and BluRay less than trivial. Note that recordable DVD
    formats weren't even a blip on the radar when these units were made, yet
    they read the discs just fine.

    Pioneer used two separate lasers to get the job done, so this same method
    should be doable for a HD-DVD/BluRay combo player where the specs are
    actually known at manufacturing time.

    The other physical differences (motor power, drawer size, etc.) between
    HD-DVD and BluRay are also miniscule compared to laserdisc vs. CD/DVD.

    --
    Jeff Rife | "The Babylon Project was our last, best hope
    | for peace.... It failed."
    |
    | -- Commander Susan Ivanova, 2260
     
    Jeff Rife, Jul 17, 2005
    #20
    1. Advertising

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

It takes just 2 minutes to sign up (and it's free!). Just click the sign up button to choose a username and then you can ask your own questions on the forum.
Similar Threads
  1. Allan
    Replies:
    0
    Views:
    601
    Allan
    Mar 16, 2005
  2. Allan
    Replies:
    10
    Views:
    755
    Brent Geery
    Jul 13, 2005
  3. Allan
    Replies:
    21
    Views:
    1,185
    Bill Vermillion
    Sep 11, 2005
  4. Silverstrand
    Replies:
    0
    Views:
    698
    Silverstrand
    Sep 25, 2006
  5. Blig Merk
    Replies:
    66
    Views:
    1,860
    StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt
    Apr 27, 2008
Loading...

Share This Page