Biometrics

Discussion in 'Computer Security' started by Simon, Nov 29, 2003.

  1. Simon

    Simon Guest

    I've been thinking about buying a PCMCIA fingerprint reader for my laptop
    but I am wondering how effective they actually are. Do they operate as a
    pre-boot system or merely for individual users post-boot?

    Also, if somebody were to obtain my fingerprint, would they be able to
    simply produce a photocopy (or whatever) and use that to gain access?

    Much is made of these biometric security systems but how good are they
    really?

    Thanks in anticipation.

    SS
    Simon, Nov 29, 2003
    #1
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  2. Simon

    John Larger Guest

    The last article I saw on biometrics (but that's been at least a year ago)
    indicated that they were easily spoofed.


    "Simon" <simon.smith@(remove)yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
    news:bqb9ja$ec$...
    > I've been thinking about buying a PCMCIA fingerprint reader for my laptop
    > but I am wondering how effective they actually are. Do they operate as a
    > pre-boot system or merely for individual users post-boot?
    >
    > Also, if somebody were to obtain my fingerprint, would they be able to
    > simply produce a photocopy (or whatever) and use that to gain access?
    >
    > Much is made of these biometric security systems but how good are they
    > really?
    >
    > Thanks in anticipation.
    >
    > SS
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    John Larger, Nov 29, 2003
    #2
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  3. Simon

    Simon Guest

    Thanks - I think I'll look at pre-boot encryption/decryption systems instead
    although I get the feeling that if somebody wants in then they will get in
    no matter what!

    It's a sad world.

    "John Larger" <> wrote in message
    news:wjayb.20742$...
    > The last article I saw on biometrics (but that's been at least a year ago)
    > indicated that they were easily spoofed.
    >
    >
    > "Simon" <simon.smith@(remove)yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
    > news:bqb9ja$ec$...
    > > I've been thinking about buying a PCMCIA fingerprint reader for my

    laptop
    > > but I am wondering how effective they actually are. Do they operate as

    a
    > > pre-boot system or merely for individual users post-boot?
    > >
    > > Also, if somebody were to obtain my fingerprint, would they be able to
    > > simply produce a photocopy (or whatever) and use that to gain access?
    > >
    > > Much is made of these biometric security systems but how good are they
    > > really?
    > >
    > > Thanks in anticipation.
    > >
    > > SS
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >

    >
    >
    Simon, Nov 30, 2003
    #3
  4. "Simon" <simon.smith@(remove)yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
    news:bqb9ja$ec$...
    > I've been thinking about buying a PCMCIA fingerprint reader for my laptop
    > but I am wondering how effective they actually are. Do they operate as a
    > pre-boot system or merely for individual users post-boot?
    >
    > Also, if somebody were to obtain my fingerprint, would they be able to
    > simply produce a photocopy (or whatever) and use that to gain access?
    >
    > Much is made of these biometric security systems but how good are they
    > really?
    >
    > Thanks in anticipation.


    Most only seem to work with Windows. I saw a reasonable integration with
    Unicenter in '97; I'm not too up-to-date on the current state of the art
    (the APIs are damned expensive, and the software you get presumably just
    replaces winlogon)

    Reliability can be a problem, I hear - one tends to get accuracy *or*
    resilience.. be interested to know of anyone with current Real World (tm)
    experience..

    --

    Hairy One Kenobi

    Disclaimer: the opinions expressed in this opinion do not necessarily
    reflect the opinions of the highly-opinionated person expressing the opinion
    in the first place. So there!
    Hairy One Kenobi, Nov 30, 2003
    #4
  5. Simon

    Simon Guest

    "Hairy One Kenobi" <abuse@[127.0.0.1]> wrote in message
    news:9ebyb.2108$...
    > "Simon" <simon.smith@(remove)yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
    > news:bqb9ja$ec$...
    > > I've been thinking about buying a PCMCIA fingerprint reader for my

    laptop
    > > but I am wondering how effective they actually are. Do they operate as

    a
    > > pre-boot system or merely for individual users post-boot?
    > >
    > > Also, if somebody were to obtain my fingerprint, would they be able to
    > > simply produce a photocopy (or whatever) and use that to gain access?
    > >
    > > Much is made of these biometric security systems but how good are they
    > > really?
    > >
    > > Thanks in anticipation.

    >
    > Most only seem to work with Windows. I saw a reasonable integration with
    > Unicenter in '97; I'm not too up-to-date on the current state of the art
    > (the APIs are damned expensive, and the software you get presumably just
    > replaces winlogon)
    >
    > Reliability can be a problem, I hear - one tends to get accuracy *or*
    > resilience.. be interested to know of anyone with current Real World (tm)
    > experience..
    >
    > --
    >
    > Hairy One Kenobi
    >
    > Disclaimer: the opinions expressed in this opinion do not necessarily
    > reflect the opinions of the highly-opinionated person expressing the

    opinion
    > in the first place. So there!
    >
    >


    I'm starting to get a sinking feeling about this.

    I think the only really good biometric system is iris recognition - the last
    figures I saw stated a 1 in 10 to the 78 chance of replication. However,
    how resilient would that system be when attached to a laptop and what
    practical use when it would probably cost more than the laptop by several
    orders of magnitude?

    Perhaps a good password system, regular backups and insurance are the
    answer!

    Thanks for your help.
    Simon, Nov 30, 2003
    #5
  6. "Simon" <simon.smith@(remove)yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
    news:bqbg7q$ev1$...
    >
    > "Hairy One Kenobi" <abuse@[127.0.0.1]> wrote in message
    > news:9ebyb.2108$...
    > > "Simon" <simon.smith@(remove)yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
    > > news:bqb9ja$ec$...
    > > > I've been thinking about buying a PCMCIA fingerprint reader for my

    > laptop
    > > > but I am wondering how effective they actually are. Do they operate

    as
    > a
    > > > pre-boot system or merely for individual users post-boot?
    > > >
    > > > Also, if somebody were to obtain my fingerprint, would they be able to
    > > > simply produce a photocopy (or whatever) and use that to gain access?
    > > >
    > > > Much is made of these biometric security systems but how good are they
    > > > really?
    > > >
    > > > Thanks in anticipation.

    > >
    > > Most only seem to work with Windows. I saw a reasonable integration with
    > > Unicenter in '97; I'm not too up-to-date on the current state of the art
    > > (the APIs are damned expensive, and the software you get presumably just
    > > replaces winlogon)
    > >
    > > Reliability can be a problem, I hear - one tends to get accuracy *or*
    > > resilience.. be interested to know of anyone with current Real World

    (tm)
    > > experience..

    >
    > I'm starting to get a sinking feeling about this.
    >
    > I think the only really good biometric system is iris recognition - the

    last
    > figures I saw stated a 1 in 10 to the 78 chance of replication. However,
    > how resilient would that system be when attached to a laptop and what
    > practical use when it would probably cost more than the laptop by several
    > orders of magnitude?
    >
    > Perhaps a good password system, regular backups and insurance are the
    > answer!
    >
    > Thanks for your help.


    IIRC, Iris recognition is indeed the best system when using current
    technology - lowest false negative/positive rates. The downside is
    persuading someone that shining a laser in their eye is good for them.. ;o)

    There's some good data out there on the web - I did some research when my
    company released our Single Sign On option; we ended up going for
    integration with RSA SecureID tags.

    Cheers,

    H1K
    Hairy One Kenobi, Nov 30, 2003
    #6
  7. Simon

    Simon Smith Guest

    Hairy One Kenobi wrote:

    > "Simon" <simon.smith@(remove)yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
    > news:bqbg7q$ev1$...
    > >
    > > "Hairy One Kenobi" <abuse@[127.0.0.1]> wrote in message
    > > news:9ebyb.2108$...
    > > > "Simon" <simon.smith@(remove)yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
    > > > news:bqb9ja$ec$...
    > > > > I've been thinking about buying a PCMCIA fingerprint reader for my

    > > laptop
    > > > > but I am wondering how effective they actually are. Do they operate

    > as
    > > a
    > > > > pre-boot system or merely for individual users post-boot?
    > > > >
    > > > > Also, if somebody were to obtain my fingerprint, would they be able to
    > > > > simply produce a photocopy (or whatever) and use that to gain access?
    > > > >
    > > > > Much is made of these biometric security systems but how good are they
    > > > > really?
    > > > >
    > > > > Thanks in anticipation.
    > > >
    > > > Most only seem to work with Windows. I saw a reasonable integration with
    > > > Unicenter in '97; I'm not too up-to-date on the current state of the art
    > > > (the APIs are damned expensive, and the software you get presumably just
    > > > replaces winlogon)
    > > >
    > > > Reliability can be a problem, I hear - one tends to get accuracy *or*
    > > > resilience.. be interested to know of anyone with current Real World

    > (tm)
    > > > experience..

    > >
    > > I'm starting to get a sinking feeling about this.
    > >
    > > I think the only really good biometric system is iris recognition - the

    > last
    > > figures I saw stated a 1 in 10 to the 78 chance of replication. However,
    > > how resilient would that system be when attached to a laptop and what
    > > practical use when it would probably cost more than the laptop by several
    > > orders of magnitude?
    > >
    > > Perhaps a good password system, regular backups and insurance are the
    > > answer!
    > >
    > > Thanks for your help.

    >
    > IIRC, Iris recognition is indeed the best system when using current
    > technology - lowest false negative/positive rates. The downside is
    > persuading someone that shining a laser in their eye is good for them.. ;o)
    >
    > There's some good data out there on the web - I did some research when my
    > company released our Single Sign On option; we ended up going for
    > integration with RSA SecureID tags.
    >
    > Cheers,
    >
    > H1K
    >
    >


    I've seen those systems - they don't appear to be that expensive either.
    Good call

    Cheers

    SS
    Simon Smith, Nov 30, 2003
    #7
  8. Simon

    Jim Watt Guest

    On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 01:13:28 -0000, "Simon"
    <simon.smith@(remove)yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

    <snip>

    At least the iris can't be cut off and used.

    --
    Jim Watt http://www.gibnet.com
    Jim Watt, Nov 30, 2003
    #8
  9. Simon

    Simon Guest

    That's not strictly true (although 'cut off' could perhaps be re-phrased
    'scooped out'!).

    If it came down to that though, who would really still give a shit that they
    had lost their laptop? I would certainly feel I had more pressing problems!
    :)

    "Jim Watt" <_way> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 01:13:28 -0000, "Simon"
    > <simon.smith@(remove)yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
    >
    > <snip>
    >
    > At least the iris can't be cut off and used.
    >
    > --
    > Jim Watt http://www.gibnet.com
    Simon, Nov 30, 2003
    #9
  10. Simon

    Jim Watt Guest

    On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 17:23:00 -0000, "Simon"
    <simon.smith@(remove)yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

    >That's not strictly true (although 'cut off' could perhaps be re-phrased
    >'scooped out'!).


    Yes but the patten would be lost in the process.

    fingers can be cut off and used.

    --
    Jim Watt http://www.gibnet.com
    Jim Watt, Nov 30, 2003
    #10
  11. "Jim Watt" <_way> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 17:23:00 -0000, "Simon"
    > <simon.smith@(remove)yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
    >
    > >That's not strictly true (although 'cut off' could perhaps be re-phrased
    > >'scooped out'!).

    >
    > Yes but the patten would be lost in the process.
    >
    > fingers can be cut off and used.


    Hmm. I shudder at reality mimic the "art" that far (numerous SF books, that
    is)

    IIRC, most currently usable scans involve the pattern of blood vessels &
    capillaries on the retina (blame me for looking too far ahead ;o) This
    should remain intact as long as the accompanying organ does.

    IIRC, (rather experimental) iris recognition has the possibility of being
    much more accurate but.. erm.. is somewhat new. With implementations that
    suffer from the same flaws a fingerprint recognition.

    Again, my fault for the mistake. Retinal scanning is, AFAIK, the planned
    technique for the new UK ID card. As much as there is a plan..

    H1K
    Hairy One Kenobi, Nov 30, 2003
    #11
  12. Simon

    Jim Watt Guest

    On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 23:28:39 -0000, "Hairy One Kenobi"
    <abuse@[127.0.0.1]> wrote:

    >> Yes but the patten would be lost in the process.
    >>
    >> fingers can be cut off and used.

    >
    >Hmm. I shudder at reality mimic the "art" that far (numerous SF books, that
    >is)
    >
    >IIRC, most currently usable scans involve the pattern of blood vessels &
    >capillaries on the retina (blame me for looking too far ahead ;o) This
    >should remain intact as long as the accompanying organ does.
    >
    >IIRC, (rather experimental) iris recognition has the possibility of being
    >much more accurate but.. erm.. is somewhat new. With implementations that
    >suffer from the same flaws a fingerprint recognition.
    >
    >Again, my fault for the mistake. Retinal scanning is, AFAIK, the planned
    >technique for the new UK ID card. As much as there is a plan..
    >
    >H1K


    The difference is that a finger or thumb can be cut off and used
    which is bad news if you are a living person, and also a weakness
    if a print is used to authenticate someone claiming benefits who is
    dead.

    I believe that the patten in the retina used would degrade quickly
    after death or (agghh) so its not an attractive option.

    The UK are being coy about exactly what 'biometric data' will
    be encoded into the card, but the idea is to authenticate it back
    to a database to make forgery difficult. I rather expect they want
    to have everyone's DNA on file, but although they have the
    sampling method non intrusive, fast and easy, the analysis is
    still a lengthy laboratory job.

    However, watching BBC Parliament indicates that the project is
    alive and well and being steamrollered along.

    If you are interested a good place to read about the plans
    would be on http://www.parliament.uk where the record
    of proceedings is searchable.

    of course its a 'benefit card' identity card sounds too much
    like what the johnny foreigners are obliged to carry and show
    to the police.

    Mind you I am old enough to have a UK identity card from
    the last issue.
    --
    Jim Watt http://www.gibnet.com
    Jim Watt, Dec 1, 2003
    #12
  13. Simon

    Gadi Evron Guest

    Simon wrote:
    > Thanks - I think I'll look at pre-boot encryption/decryption systems instead
    > although I get the feeling that if somebody wants in then they will get in
    > no matter what!
    >
    > It's a sad world.


    Okay, there are some good articles and books on the subject, but I have
    a few things to contribute to this discussion.

    Basically, it all comes down, once again, to who has you in their
    sights, and how much of a target you are.

    If someone will invest enough in it, they will eventually get in to
    anywhere. But you can make their life very difficult. :)
    So pretty much - yes, nothing is really impossible, as long as we follow
    the rules of physics, and then some. :)

    Myself, I like biometric systems.

    It is true that finger-print based biometric systems are somewhat
    unreliable for a few reasons, some of which include relatively easy
    faking, there are very few duplicates (0.who-knows-how-many-zero's...1
    per cent of the world's population has the same fingerprint, probably 1
    out of a million, 10 million or 100 million people - I am bad with
    statistics). Then there are the problems of how secure your system is,
    based on how many minuteas you use? If too many you may not be
    identified tomorrow, and if too few.. the rest of the world can pass for
    being you.
    I can go on for quite a bit about all this and a lot more, but you get
    my drift.

    Every system has its downsides.

    The whole point is to use the biometric system along with another system.
    That way you double the technology, and it is more difficult, to a
    level, to get in.
    For example, password + finger print.
    Something you know + something you are.

    As a security minded person when I hear the word laptop though, I start
    sweating. I can't even begin to imagine the loss of information caused
    world-wide by people simply forgetting the laptop somewhere.

    My two cents.
    --
    Gadi Evron.

    The Trojan Horses Research mailing list - http://ecompute.org/th-list
    Gadi Evron, Dec 1, 2003
    #13
  14. Simon

    Jim Watt Guest

    On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 18:45:32 GMT, Gadi Evron <>
    wrote:

    >As a security minded person when I hear the word laptop though, I start
    >sweating. I can't even begin to imagine the loss of information caused
    >world-wide by people simply forgetting the laptop somewhere.


    Indeed I knew a software developer who left his laptop with six months
    work on a bar, and it vanished. he had to go hide in Australia

    Backups are of course a good idea ...
    --
    Jim Watt http://www.gibnet.com
    Jim Watt, Dec 1, 2003
    #14
  15. Gadi Evron <> writes:
    > Every system has its downsides.
    >
    > The whole point is to use the biometric system along with another system.
    > That way you double the technology, and it is more difficult, to a
    > level, to get in.
    > For example, password + finger print.
    > Something you know + something you are.


    simple scenario is large segment of population that write their PIN
    number on their debit cards. So the issue is it is more difficult for
    a crook to steal a debit card ... and

    1) use that debit card by entering the PIN written on the card

    or

    2) use that debit card by lifting a latent print from the card,
    duplicating that print ... and when they go to use the card, entering
    the duplicating latent print ... and hope that it is the one that is
    suppose to be used

    part of the issue is the proliferation of "something you know"
    shared-secret infrastructures requiring a unique shared-secret for
    every different security domain.

    lots of past discussions about three factor authentication as part of
    security paradigm ... and comparison of something you know plus
    something you are .... along with differentiation between
    shared-secret and non-shared-secret paradigm

    http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm10.htm#bio6 biometrics
    http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm10.htm#keygen2 Welome to the Internet, here's your private key
    http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm14.htm#23 Maybe It's Snake Oil All the Way Down
    http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm14.htm#39 An attack on paypal
    http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm14.htm#48 basic question: semantics of "map", "tie", etc in PKI
    http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm15.htm#32 VS: On-line signature standards
    http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm15.htm#33 VS: On-line signature standards
    http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm15.htm#36 VS: On-line signature standards
    http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm15.htm#37 VS: On-line signature standards
    http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aepay11.htm#53 Authentication white paper
    http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aepay11.htm#55 FINREAD ... and as an aside
    http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#39 PKI and Non-repudiation practicalities
    http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#11 FREE X.509 Certificates
    http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#38 distributed authentication
    http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001j.html#44 Does "Strong Security" Mean Anything?
    http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001j.html#52 Are client certificates really secure?
    http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#61 I-net banking security
    http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002c.html#7 Opinion on smartcard security requested
    http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002c.html#10 Opinion on smartcard security requested
    http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002e.html#18 Opinion on smartcard security requested
    http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002e.html#36 Crypting with Fingerprints ?
    http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002f.html#22 Biometric Encryption: the solution for network intruders?
    http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#8 Biometric authentication for intranet websites?
    http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#41 Biometric authentication for intranet websites?
    http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002i.html#65 privileged IDs and non-privileged IDs
    http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#30 Help! Good protocol for national ID card?
    http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002o.html#57 Certificate Authority: Industry vs. Government
    http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002o.html#67 smartcard+fingerprint
    http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003h.html#29 application of unique signature
    http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003i.html#1 Two-factor authentication with SSH?
    http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003m.html#51 public key vs passwd authentication?
    http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003o.html#29 Biometric cards will not stop identity fraud

    --
    Anne & Lynn Wheeler | - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
    Internet trivia, 20th anniv: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm
    Anne & Lynn Wheeler, Dec 2, 2003
    #15
  16. Simon

    Gadi Evron Guest

    Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote:

    > part of the issue is the proliferation of "something you know"
    > shared-secret infrastructures requiring a unique shared-secret for
    > every different security domain.


    Indeed. Every solution has its failure point, soft spot, or
    imperfection, which is why not relying on just one solution is.. IMO,
    better.
    However, you are right, but I'd rather think my security is not based on
    everything being a secret, but even if it was widely known I would still
    be secure.

    Personally I'd rather keep everything related to my security a secret..
    OK.. not everything *evil grin*.

    ^^ But that's the human factor, what do I want my clients/employees/the
    world to know, or think they know?
    What do I want them to do or not do?
    What do I do if they do and thus cause a security issue, or worse, don't
    and thus rendering some of my security invalid.

    ID's can be copied or created, radio signals can be faked.. etc.

    How much are you willing to invest?

    If in order to enter your building you need an ID to verify how you look
    like, which is actually a smart card that will carry some identification
    to be checked (PKI) and a monitor that will show the guard your real
    face (in contrast with the one on your card), then some biometric issues..
    And THEN to enter a room you need your finger print or smart card...
    (one of the two?).

    To use your PC you need your PKI friendly system + passwd.

    It never ends, but where do we draw the line?

    I should stress that physical security is AS important as any firewall
    you may install, if not more.
    You can invest millions, and then somebody would just show up, break
    into your office and take whatever he or she wants.

    To sum it up, see the horizon? You can go as far beyond it with your
    security as you like, be reasonable and asses the situation right, and
    then some.

    Don't use security as an excuse or as a cover for you ass before the
    management. If you are serious about security and still remember it is
    not there just for being there (although now that starts to slowly
    change as well) but for people to keep working && be secure, just keep
    it serious, see what happens (before it does, preferably :p).

    You'll be alright (I hope).

    And handcuff that laptop to your wrist! !! ! !!! ! :)
    --
    Gadi Evron.

    The Trojan Horses Research mailing list - http://ecompute.org/th-list
    Gadi Evron, Dec 2, 2003
    #16
  17. Simon

    John Guest

    Simon wrote:
    > I've been thinking about buying a PCMCIA fingerprint reader for my laptop
    > but I am wondering how effective they actually are. Do they operate as a
    > pre-boot system or merely for individual users post-boot?
    >
    > Also, if somebody were to obtain my fingerprint, would they be able to
    > simply produce a photocopy (or whatever) and use that to gain access?
    >
    > Much is made of these biometric security systems but how good are they
    > really?
    >
    > Thanks in anticipation.
    >
    > SS
    >


    I would combine it with a PCMCIA smartcard reader and a smartcard to
    store fingerprint templates on it. The smartcard can also have account
    information and certificates for SSO.

    So my fingerprint templates are not stored in some database,
    and if the card gets stolen I revoke the certificates.

    As a matter of fact this is how I eased logging on to my laptop a bit,
    using a fingerprint reader from Precise Biometrics (not a PCMCIA yet, a
    USB PB100MC) and a smartcard reader from Omnikey (Cardman 4000).
    Smartcard from Miotec (Atmel chip, Miocos 2.0 OS), software by Utimaco
    (SafeGuard Biometrics + some more).

    The harddisk is of course encrypted completely, I still need to enter a
    PBA password. So
    what I know (the PBA password) is combined with
    what I have (the smartcard (and the laptop ;-.))) and
    what I am (the fingerprint).

    Groetjes
    John

    Yes, I work for Utimaco
    John, Dec 2, 2003
    #17
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