Battery life - rechargeable or lithium?

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Default NG ID, Jul 23, 2006.

  1. Hello,

    I've been using rechargeable batteries in my Canon A95, and a set of 4
    x AAs seems to last a week or more. I'm wondering, though, whether
    lithium batteries would be likely to last as long, as they're
    considerably lighter. Is there a right/wrong answer?

    Many thanks for any help.
    Default NG ID, Jul 23, 2006
    #1
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  2. Lithiums have the longest life (only over 4 years or so) and cost the most.
    Charles Schuler, Jul 23, 2006
    #2
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  3. Default NG ID

    sally Guest

    "Charles Schuler" <> wrote in
    news::
    > Lithiums have the longest life (only over 4 years or so) and cost
    > the most.


    and cannot be recharged.
    sally, Jul 24, 2006
    #3
  4. Default NG ID

    ASAAR Guest

    On Sun, 23 Jul 2006 23:29:08 +0100, Default NG ID wrote:

    > I've been using rechargeable batteries in my Canon A95, and a set of 4
    > x AAs seems to last a week or more. I'm wondering, though, whether
    > lithium batteries would be likely to last as long, as they're
    > considerably lighter. Is there a right/wrong answer?


    It depends on which type of "lasting" you're referring to. One
    type is how many shots you'll get from the NiMH batteries per charge
    (and I assume that this is what you're referring to). The other is
    how long the NiMH battery's charge will last even if you don't use
    the camera.

    For the former case, it varies because lithium batteries have
    their greatest advantage over alkaline or NiMH batteries in cameras
    or other devices that use relatively large average operating
    currents. In the case of your camera, this would be if you kept the
    LCD display on and used the flash for many of your shots. Then the
    lithium batteries could last from 2 to 4 times longer. But if you
    use the optical viewfinder and take most of the shots outdoors, or
    indoors where it's bright enough so that the flash isn't often used,
    the lithium batteries might only last from 50% to 100% longer.

    In either case, using lithium AA batteries will cost you much more
    in the long run, because (and this is a very rough estimate, not
    knowing which of the two previously mentioned shooting styles you
    use) you might have to replace lithium batteries every 3 to 5 weeks.
    Picking an arbitrary 4 weeks, and that would indicate that you'd
    need 13 sets of lithium batteries per year, which if you pay typical
    prices, would be about $130 per year for batteries. You'd have to
    replace NiMH batteries more often, but the cost savings would be
    tremendous. You already have at least one set of NiMH batteries and
    a charger, but for comparison, if you had to buy a charger and two
    sets NiMH batteries (8 AA cells) it might set you back about $40.
    But they'd probably easily last 4 years, by which time if you used
    lithium AAs instead, the cost of batteries would be about $500.

    The other type of "lasting" that I mentioned is how long the
    battery's charge lasts when they're not used. Alkaline and lithium
    have extremely long "shelf lives", about 8 and 16 years,
    respectively. Most NiMH batteries suffer from a self discharge rate
    that causes them to slowly lose their charge when unused. In
    practice this means that you should probably put the NiMH batteries
    back in the charger if you plan on using the camera for more than a
    small number of shots if it has been a month or more since the
    batteries were last charged. This should amount to only a slight
    inconvenience. There are a few people that try to make this sound
    like a serious limitation, suggesting that if some spur of the
    moment need for taking pictures arises and you have only dead NiMH
    batteries on hand, you'll probably miss the shots while waiting
    several hours for the batteries to be charged. That's easily taken
    care of by (as I mentioned) charging the batteries at least monthly.
    But failing that, you'll be ok if you keep one set of alkaline or
    lithium batteries on hand as emergency backups. With their very
    long shelf lives, just one set of either type would probably still
    be good many years from now when you're no longer using the A95. :)
    ASAAR, Jul 24, 2006
    #4
  5. Default NG ID

    RK Guest

    Can you use rechargeable LiIons (CRV3-R's)? I use them and they provide
    a great bang for the buck.


    Default NG ID wrote:
    > Hello,
    >
    > I've been using rechargeable batteries in my Canon A95, and a set of 4
    > x AAs seems to last a week or more. I'm wondering, though, whether
    > lithium batteries would be likely to last as long, as they're
    > considerably lighter. Is there a right/wrong answer?
    >
    > Many thanks for any help.
    RK, Jul 24, 2006
    #5
  6. Default NG ID

    Jim Townsend Guest

    Default NG ID wrote:

    > Hello,
    >
    > I've been using rechargeable batteries in my Canon A95, and a set of 4
    > x AAs seems to last a week or more. I'm wondering, though, whether
    > lithium batteries would be likely to last as long, as they're
    > considerably lighter. Is there a right/wrong answer?
    >
    > Many thanks for any help.


    Which rechargeable batteries are you using.. Nickle Cadmium (NiCad) or
    Nickle Metal Hydride (NiMH) ?

    Which lithium batteries do you plan to use. Non rechargeable standard
    Lithium, or rechargeable Lithium Ion ?

    NiCads have seen their day. They are less efficient than NiMH and are
    prone to developing a memory if not treated properly. The cost of
    NiMH batteries has come down greatly. I would rate rechargeable NiMH
    batteries as best bang for the buck.

    Non rechargeable Lithium batteries are EXPENSIVE. They will last
    much longer. (And they even keep working 40 below zero) but in the
    long run, using these WILL be very costly.

    I don't know if they make rechargeable Lithium Ion in the AA package.
    These do pack the most punch. Pound for pound they provide the most
    energy and last the longest before they need recharging.

    It seems most LiIon batteries come in proprietary packages designed
    to fit certain cameras.
    Jim Townsend, Jul 24, 2006
    #6
  7. Default NG ID

    Guest

    Lithium nonrechargeable batteries will EAT YOU UP in cost. Either
    get rechargeables - or, if you can buy in bulk, you may consider
    alkalines from a place like Lowe's (quite inexpensive). Rechargeables
    are best deal.

    No $4 to park! No $6 admission! http://www.INTERNET-GUN-SHOW.com
    , Jul 24, 2006
    #7
  8. Default NG ID

    Ron Hunter Guest

    Default NG ID wrote:
    > Hello,
    >
    > I've been using rechargeable batteries in my Canon A95, and a set of 4
    > x AAs seems to last a week or more. I'm wondering, though, whether
    > lithium batteries would be likely to last as long, as they're
    > considerably lighter. Is there a right/wrong answer?
    >
    > Many thanks for any help.
    >


    Yes, they will probably last longer, are much lighter, less polluting
    when disposed of, and have vastly greater shelf life. If all those
    factors override the importance of the higher cost/picture, go for it!
    Ron Hunter, Jul 24, 2006
    #8
  9. Default NG ID

    Ron Hunter Guest

    Jim Townsend wrote:
    > Default NG ID wrote:
    >
    >> Hello,
    >>
    >> I've been using rechargeable batteries in my Canon A95, and a set of 4
    >> x AAs seems to last a week or more. I'm wondering, though, whether
    >> lithium batteries would be likely to last as long, as they're
    >> considerably lighter. Is there a right/wrong answer?
    >>
    >> Many thanks for any help.

    >
    > Which rechargeable batteries are you using.. Nickle Cadmium (NiCad) or
    > Nickle Metal Hydride (NiMH) ?
    >
    > Which lithium batteries do you plan to use. Non rechargeable standard
    > Lithium, or rechargeable Lithium Ion ?
    >
    > NiCads have seen their day. They are less efficient than NiMH and are
    > prone to developing a memory if not treated properly. The cost of
    > NiMH batteries has come down greatly. I would rate rechargeable NiMH
    > batteries as best bang for the buck.
    >
    > Non rechargeable Lithium batteries are EXPENSIVE. They will last
    > much longer. (And they even keep working 40 below zero) but in the
    > long run, using these WILL be very costly.
    >
    > I don't know if they make rechargeable Lithium Ion in the AA package.
    > These do pack the most punch. Pound for pound they provide the most
    > energy and last the longest before they need recharging.
    >
    > It seems most LiIon batteries come in proprietary packages designed
    > to fit certain cameras.
    >
    >
    >

    RE: cost of disposable lithium batteries.

    I have found that Sam's Club sells them for $19.95 for a package of
    twelve. For a person who takes few pictures, and wants a camera that is
    'ready to go' at any time, the expense is well worth the convenience.
    If you take a lot of pictures, the NIMH battery will work very well, and
    if you do both, at intervals, the NIMH batteries, with lithiums for
    backup are ideal. That is the way I work it here.
    Ron Hunter, Jul 24, 2006
    #9
  10. Default NG ID

    c Guest

    "Ron Hunter" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Jim Townsend wrote:
    >> Default NG ID wrote:
    >>
    >>> Hello,
    >>>
    >>> I've been using rechargeable batteries in my Canon A95, and a set of 4
    >>> x AAs seems to last a week or more. I'm wondering, though, whether
    >>> lithium batteries would be likely to last as long, as they're
    >>> considerably lighter. Is there a right/wrong answer?
    >>>
    >>> Many thanks for any help.

    >>
    >> Which rechargeable batteries are you using.. Nickle Cadmium (NiCad) or
    >> Nickle Metal Hydride (NiMH) ?
    >>
    >> Which lithium batteries do you plan to use. Non rechargeable standard
    >> Lithium, or rechargeable Lithium Ion ?
    >>
    >> NiCads have seen their day. They are less efficient than NiMH and are
    >> prone to developing a memory if not treated properly. The cost of
    >> NiMH batteries has come down greatly. I would rate rechargeable NiMH
    >> batteries as best bang for the buck.
    >>
    >> Non rechargeable Lithium batteries are EXPENSIVE. They will last
    >> much longer. (And they even keep working 40 below zero) but in the long
    >> run, using these WILL be very costly.
    >>
    >> I don't know if they make rechargeable Lithium Ion in the AA package.
    >> These do pack the most punch. Pound for pound they provide the most
    >> energy and last the longest before they need recharging.
    >>
    >> It seems most LiIon batteries come in proprietary packages designed
    >> to fit certain cameras.
    >>
    >>

    > RE: cost of disposable lithium batteries.
    >
    > I have found that Sam's Club sells them for $19.95 for a package of
    > twelve. For a person who takes few pictures, and wants a camera that is
    > 'ready to go' at any time, the expense is well worth the convenience. If
    > you take a lot of pictures, the NIMH battery will work very well, and if
    > you do both, at intervals, the NIMH batteries, with lithiums for backup
    > are ideal. That is the way I work it here.


    This is how I do it also. I carry several sets of rechargeables, and one or
    two sets of the disposable lithiums. On my recent trip to the Philippines,
    this saved me from not having a camera to use, as one of the places we
    traveled to was very remote and we went for a couple days with no
    electricity. The lithiums lasted for several hundred shots, and still had a
    lot of life left in them. When I got home, I just put them in to one of the
    remotes for the stereo and got another new set for the camera case.

    Chris
    c, Jul 24, 2006
    #10
  11. ? "Jim Townsend" <> ?????? ??? ??????
    news:...
    > Default NG ID wrote:
    >
    > > Hello,
    > >
    > > I've been using rechargeable batteries in my Canon A95, and a set of 4
    > > x AAs seems to last a week or more. I'm wondering, though, whether
    > > lithium batteries would be likely to last as long, as they're
    > > considerably lighter. Is there a right/wrong answer?
    > >
    > > Many thanks for any help.

    >
    > Which rechargeable batteries are you using.. Nickle Cadmium (NiCad) or
    > Nickle Metal Hydride (NiMH) ?
    >
    > Which lithium batteries do you plan to use. Non rechargeable standard
    > Lithium, or rechargeable Lithium Ion ?
    >
    > NiCads have seen their day. They are less efficient than NiMH and are
    > prone to developing a memory if not treated properly. The cost of
    > NiMH batteries has come down greatly. I would rate rechargeable NiMH
    > batteries as best bang for the buck.
    >
    > Non rechargeable Lithium batteries are EXPENSIVE. They will last
    > much longer. (And they even keep working 40 below zero) but in the
    > long run, using these WILL be very costly.
    >
    > I don't know if they make rechargeable Lithium Ion in the AA package.
    > These do pack the most punch. Pound for pound they provide the most
    > energy and last the longest before they need recharging.
    >
    > It seems most LiIon batteries come in proprietary packages designed
    > to fit certain cameras.
    >

    I think that's why li-ion cells cannot be made for 1.25 volts aka a standard
    AA cell.They can be made, I think like 7.2 volts min so they're best for
    camcorders and cell phones.



    --
    Tzortzakakis Dimitrios
    major in electrical engineering,freelance electrician
    542nd mechanized infantry batallion
    dimtzort AT otenet DOT gr
    Tzortzakakis Dimitrios, Jul 24, 2006
    #11
  12. Default NG ID

    Bill Guest

    Tzortzakakis Dimitrios wrote:

    >> NiCads have seen their day. They are less efficient than NiMH and are
    >> prone to developing a memory if not treated properly.


    Actually NiCad are more efficient than NiMH and are among the best for
    discharge current rates. But in most electronic uses it doesn't matter.

    NiMH are also sensitive to "memory effects", but to a much lesser
    degree. It's wise to deplete NiMH cells occasionally to maintain their
    capacity.

    LiIon on the other hand are best maintained by topping them up rather
    than depleting them. Running them down all the time is actually not good
    for them. LiIon has the best energy storage capacity per gram of weight,
    which makes them well suited to portable items. And they have no "memory
    effects".

    > The cost of
    >> NiMH batteries has come down greatly. I would rate rechargeable NiMH
    >> batteries as best bang for the buck.


    I agree with that, although LiIon is making a strong run.

    >> I don't know if they make rechargeable Lithium Ion in the AA package.


    I don't think so...minimum voltage at 3.7v is an issue.

    >I think that's why li-ion cells cannot be made for 1.25 volts aka a standard
    >AA cell.They can be made, I think like 7.2 volts min so they're best for
    >camcorders and cell phones.


    Lithium cells typically run 3.7 volts/cell, which is why the common
    rechargeable battery packs are 7.4 volts (two cells in each pack).
    Bill, Jul 24, 2006
    #12
  13. Default NG ID

    Ron Hunter Guest

    Tzortzakakis Dimitrios wrote:
    > ? "Jim Townsend" <> ?????? ??? ??????
    > news:...
    >> Default NG ID wrote:
    >>
    >>> Hello,
    >>>
    >>> I've been using rechargeable batteries in my Canon A95, and a set of 4
    >>> x AAs seems to last a week or more. I'm wondering, though, whether
    >>> lithium batteries would be likely to last as long, as they're
    >>> considerably lighter. Is there a right/wrong answer?
    >>>
    >>> Many thanks for any help.

    >> Which rechargeable batteries are you using.. Nickle Cadmium (NiCad) or
    >> Nickle Metal Hydride (NiMH) ?
    >>
    >> Which lithium batteries do you plan to use. Non rechargeable standard
    >> Lithium, or rechargeable Lithium Ion ?
    >>
    >> NiCads have seen their day. They are less efficient than NiMH and are
    >> prone to developing a memory if not treated properly. The cost of
    >> NiMH batteries has come down greatly. I would rate rechargeable NiMH
    >> batteries as best bang for the buck.
    >>
    >> Non rechargeable Lithium batteries are EXPENSIVE. They will last
    >> much longer. (And they even keep working 40 below zero) but in the
    >> long run, using these WILL be very costly.
    >>
    >> I don't know if they make rechargeable Lithium Ion in the AA package.
    >> These do pack the most punch. Pound for pound they provide the most
    >> energy and last the longest before they need recharging.
    >>
    >> It seems most LiIon batteries come in proprietary packages designed
    >> to fit certain cameras.
    >>

    > I think that's why li-ion cells cannot be made for 1.25 volts aka a standard
    > AA cell.They can be made, I think like 7.2 volts min so they're best for
    > camcorders and cell phones.
    >
    >
    >
    > --
    > Tzortzakakis Dimitrios
    > major in electrical engineering,freelance electrician
    > 542nd mechanized infantry batallion
    > dimtzort AT otenet DOT gr
    >
    >

    I believe a 'standard' AA cell is nominally 1.5 volts, and the
    NIMH/NiCAD batteries are 1.25 (nominal).
    Ron Hunter, Jul 24, 2006
    #13
  14. Default NG ID

    Dave Cohen Guest

    Default NG ID wrote:
    > Hello,
    >
    > I've been using rechargeable batteries in my Canon A95, and a set of 4
    > x AAs seems to last a week or more. I'm wondering, though, whether
    > lithium batteries would be likely to last as long, as they're
    > considerably lighter. Is there a right/wrong answer?
    >
    > Many thanks for any help.
    >

    I have an A95 and my NiMH's last sometimes as long as 4 months. After
    much thought as to how the same camera could deliver such differences I
    began to wonder if perhaps it had something to do with the number of
    shots taken, whether leaving the lcd on and flash usage, none of which
    you seem to feel relevant to your question and omitted from your post.
    Just recharge what you have when they need it and forget about lithium
    except for emergency use.
    Dave Cohen
    Dave Cohen, Jul 25, 2006
    #14
  15. Default NG ID

    Alf92 Guest

    sally () a écrit
    dans news:Xns9809A59FCCAC9s321@192.160.13.20 :


    >> Lithiums have the longest life (only over 4 years or so) and cost
    >> the most.

    >
    > and cannot be recharged.


    he means Lithium Ion...

    I prefer NiMh : more standard, low cost, you can find some everywhere,
    and life time of 5 years (2 for LiIon).
    the autonomy is the same.
    the negative point for the AA NiMh is the height.


    --
    Cordialement,
    Alf92
    ======> http://frpn.online.fr
    Alf92, Jul 25, 2006
    #15
  16. Ron Hunter <> writes:

    >I believe a 'standard' AA cell is nominally 1.5 volts, and the
    >NIMH/NiCAD batteries are 1.25 (nominal).


    But note that those two numbers are measured different ways. The
    standard single-use cell is about 1.5 V when fresh, dropping to 1 V or
    below at end of life (depending on discharge rate). NiMH/NiCd are about
    1.4 V when freshly recharged, but quickly drop to about 1.2 volts *and
    stay there for most of their useful discharge capacity*.

    So if you were to discharge an alkaline and a NiMH cell at about the
    same rate, the alkaline would start out at higher voltage, but about
    halfway through discharge the alkaline voltage would drop enough that
    the NiMH cell actually had higher voltage for the rest of the discharge
    time.

    Dave
    Dave Martindale, Jul 26, 2006
    #16
  17. Default NG ID

    ASAAR Guest

    On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 15:57:16 +0000 (UTC), Dave Martindale wrote:

    > But note that those two numbers are measured different ways. The
    > standard single-use cell is about 1.5 V when fresh, dropping to 1 V or
    > below at end of life (depending on discharge rate). NiMH/NiCd are about
    > 1.4 V when freshly recharged, but quickly drop to about 1.2 volts *and
    > stay there for most of their useful discharge capacity*.


    That's not correct. NiMH/NiCd voltages are not as flat as you
    assume, but drop fairly steadily until the cells reach 1.0 volts, at
    which point they're almost fully discharged. This is quite easily
    seen in one of my radios, the Sangean ATS-909 (aka Radio Shack
    DX-398). It uses a 14 segment bar graph to display the battery
    voltage. Freshly charged NiMH batteries "light" 12 segments, and as
    the radio is used the number of lit segments decreases very
    uniformly at the rate of about 1 segment every 2 hours. When the
    last segment is extinguished, the radio is within minutes of
    powering off due to insufficient voltage, and at that point the cell
    voltages all measure very near 1.0 volts. If you look at
    manufacturer's data sheets of NiMH voltages under load vs. time it
    may seem as if the voltage is flat over most of the cell's useful
    life, but if you examine it closely you can see a fairly uniform
    slope between 1.2 and 1.0 volts.


    > So if you were to discharge an alkaline and a NiMH cell at about the
    > same rate, the alkaline would start out at higher voltage, but about
    > halfway through discharge the alkaline voltage would drop enough that
    > the NiMH cell actually had higher voltage for the rest of the discharge
    > time.


    That's true. And if alkaline AA cells are used in the
    aforementioned radio, the radio will cut out at the same point where
    each cell has dropped to about 1.0 volts (under load). It's only
    their "end of life" as far as the digital radio is concerned, but
    actually they've still got a lot of energy left in them. If these
    same cells are removed and placed in almost any analog radio played
    at a similar moderate volume, they'll usually continue for another
    20 to 30 hours. If the same thing is done with NiMH or NiCd
    batteries, they'll only power the analog radio for a few more
    minutes. The ATS-909 uses 4 AA cells, but it's not good to put the
    NiMH cells in an analog radio that uses 4 AA cells, as it will
    usually continue operating even after the one cell has rapidly
    dropped to 0 volts and is in danger of being damaged. It's much
    safer (although still risky) if they're used in radios that use 2 AA
    cells. They still can be easily damaged if the radio isn't powered
    off when the first cell has become discharged, but this can usually
    be easily heard as the sound becomes more and more distorted as the
    total voltage rapidly drops from about 2.0 to 1.0 volts.
    ASAAR, Jul 26, 2006
    #17
  18. Default NG ID

    Ron Hunter Guest

    Dave Martindale wrote:
    > Ron Hunter <> writes:
    >
    >> I believe a 'standard' AA cell is nominally 1.5 volts, and the
    >> NIMH/NiCAD batteries are 1.25 (nominal).

    >
    > But note that those two numbers are measured different ways. The
    > standard single-use cell is about 1.5 V when fresh, dropping to 1 V or
    > below at end of life (depending on discharge rate). NiMH/NiCd are about
    > 1.4 V when freshly recharged, but quickly drop to about 1.2 volts *and
    > stay there for most of their useful discharge capacity*.
    >
    > So if you were to discharge an alkaline and a NiMH cell at about the
    > same rate, the alkaline would start out at higher voltage, but about
    > halfway through discharge the alkaline voltage would drop enough that
    > the NiMH cell actually had higher voltage for the rest of the discharge
    > time.
    >
    > Dave

    True. However, batteries are usually rated at their nominal charged
    voltage.
    Ron Hunter, Jul 27, 2006
    #18
  19. Default NG ID

    GregS Guest

    In article <>, ASAAR <> wrote:
    >On Sun, 23 Jul 2006 23:29:08 +0100, Default NG ID wrote:
    >
    >> I've been using rechargeable batteries in my Canon A95, and a set of 4
    >> x AAs seems to last a week or more. I'm wondering, though, whether
    >> lithium batteries would be likely to last as long, as they're
    >> considerably lighter. Is there a right/wrong answer?

    >
    > It depends on which type of "lasting" you're referring to. One
    >type is how many shots you'll get from the NiMH batteries per charge
    >(and I assume that this is what you're referring to). The other is
    >how long the NiMH battery's charge will last even if you don't use


    Its always good to keep a set of Lithiums as backup.

    greg
    GregS, Jul 27, 2006
    #19
  20. On Sun, 23 Jul 2006 23:29:08 +0100, Default NG ID <>
    wrote:

    >Hello,
    >
    >I've been using rechargeable batteries in my Canon A95, and a set of 4
    >x AAs seems to last a week or more. I'm wondering, though, whether
    >lithium batteries would be likely to last as long, as they're
    >considerably lighter. Is there a right/wrong answer?


    Many thanks to all who replied, and apologies for not sending thanks
    sooner.

    I should have explained that I was wondering whether two sets of the
    lighter, non-rechargable lithium batteries would last a fortnight on a
    backpacking trip, as I try hard to keep weight to a minimum. I'll
    continue to use the rechargable batteries for weekends away, but it
    sounds as though the lighter ones will do the job when I go away for a
    couple of weeks.

    Many thanks again :)
    Default NG ID, Aug 22, 2006
    #20
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