Basic photo question

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Steve B, Jan 1, 2013.

  1. Steve B

    Steve B Guest

    Let's say that I change my setting for either aperture, speed, or manual
    priority.

    I set the aperture for depth of focus, and the camera selects the speed.
    I set the speed to freeze motion, and the camera selects the aperture.
    I put it on manual, and can set both, even intentionally off if I want to.

    Now, the question. I turn on the flash.

    Does the camera use the settings I put in, or does it go into control of the
    camera, and change any of the settings? I have taken many photos of the
    same thing at many various settings, and I do know the photos come out
    differently. I was just wondering about this part of the camera's actual
    functioning.

    I apologize for the basic question, but I want to learn this from the ABC's
    up, and I have a few missing letters.

    Steve
    Steve B, Jan 1, 2013
    #1
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  2. Steve B

    Martin Brown Guest

    On 01/01/2013 21:10, Steve B wrote:
    > Let's say that I change my setting for either aperture, speed, or manual
    > priority.
    >
    > I set the aperture for depth of focus, and the camera selects the speed.
    > I set the speed to freeze motion, and the camera selects the aperture.
    > I put it on manual, and can set both, even intentionally off if I want to.
    >
    > Now, the question. I turn on the flash.


    It depends on the camera *and* on the flash. Some P&S are stupid and
    will expose for a seriously long (ie blurring time) even with their puny
    flash enabled - and destroy their battery life into the bargain.

    A high power dedicated smart flash can take control of the camera and
    force an exposure time that ensures the focal plane shutter is wide open
    at the instant that flash fires and as little other ambient light gets
    in as possible. This usually gives the sharpest results.

    There is usually only one optimal flash sync speed for this but some
    cameras will attempt to use ambient light as well.
    >
    > Does the camera use the settings I put in, or does it go into control of the
    > camera, and change any of the settings? I have taken many photos of the
    > same thing at many various settings, and I do know the photos come out
    > differently. I was just wondering about this part of the camera's actual
    > functioning.
    >
    > I apologize for the basic question, but I want to learn this from the ABC's
    > up, and I have a few missing letters.


    The answer is far from straight forward these days and the behaviour of
    some modern cameras is decidedly less than ideal.

    --
    Regards,
    Martin Brown
    Martin Brown, Jan 1, 2013
    #2
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  3. Steve B

    Robert Coe Guest

    On Tue, 1 Jan 2013 14:10:24 -0700, "Steve B" <> wrote:
    : Let's say that I change my setting for either aperture, speed, or manual
    : priority.
    :
    : I set the aperture for depth of focus, and the camera selects the speed.
    : I set the speed to freeze motion, and the camera selects the aperture.
    : I put it on manual, and can set both, even intentionally off if I want to.
    :
    : Now, the question. I turn on the flash.
    :
    : Does the camera use the settings I put in, or does it go into control of
    : the camera, and change any of the settings? I have taken many photos of
    : the same thing at many various settings, and I do know the photos come out
    : differently. I was just wondering about this part of the camera's actual
    : functioning.
    :
    : I apologize for the basic question, but I want to learn this from the ABC's
    : up, and I have a few missing letters.

    That's a very complex question that has no short answer. It depends on the
    camera, the flash unit, and the chosen settings for each. To obtain a reliable
    answer, you'll have to read the manuals for both the camera and the flash
    you're using, then come back with more specific questions about what you
    didn't understand in the manuals.

    And don't imagine that it's a great simplification if you're using the
    camera's built-in flash. Unless you're too knowledgeable to have asked such a
    broad question, you can regard the built-in flash as simply a rather lame
    external flash that happens to be located on the camera and pointed in the
    same direction as the lens.

    Bob
    Robert Coe, Jan 1, 2013
    #3
  4. Steve B

    Tony Cooper Guest

    On Tue, 01 Jan 2013 17:17:29 -0500, Robert Coe <> wrote:

    >On Tue, 1 Jan 2013 14:10:24 -0700, "Steve B" <> wrote:
    >: Let's say that I change my setting for either aperture, speed, or manual
    >: priority.
    >:
    >: I set the aperture for depth of focus, and the camera selects the speed.
    >: I set the speed to freeze motion, and the camera selects the aperture.
    >: I put it on manual, and can set both, even intentionally off if I want to.
    >:
    >: Now, the question. I turn on the flash.
    >:
    >: Does the camera use the settings I put in, or does it go into control of
    >: the camera, and change any of the settings? I have taken many photos of
    >: the same thing at many various settings, and I do know the photos come out
    >: differently. I was just wondering about this part of the camera's actual
    >: functioning.
    >:
    >: I apologize for the basic question, but I want to learn this from the ABC's
    >: up, and I have a few missing letters.
    >
    >That's a very complex question that has no short answer. It depends on the
    >camera, the flash unit, and the chosen settings for each. To obtain a reliable
    >answer, you'll have to read the manuals for both the camera and the flash
    >you're using, then come back with more specific questions about what you
    >didn't understand in the manuals.
    >
    >And don't imagine that it's a great simplification if you're using the
    >camera's built-in flash. Unless you're too knowledgeable to have asked such a
    >broad question, you can regard the built-in flash as simply a rather lame
    >external flash that happens to be located on the camera and pointed in the
    >same direction as the lens.


    He doesn't really have to read the manual to know. All he has to do
    is take a series of photos and then look at the EXIF data. If he knows
    what his settings were, he can compare that to the actual settings the
    camera used.

    On my Nikon, it's even simpler. Just look at the LCD on the back
    after each shot and read the numbers.

    I just set it at M, picked a speed and aperture, and fired it with no
    flash, built-in flash, and external flash. Each photograph was taken
    at the same speed and aperture that I set.

    Setting the aperture only had the same result...all the same.


    --
    Tony Cooper, Orlando FL
    Tony Cooper, Jan 1, 2013
    #4
  5. Steve B

    nick c Guest

    On 1/1/2013 1:10 PM, Steve B wrote:
    > Let's say that I change my setting for either aperture, speed, or manual
    > priority.
    >
    > I set the aperture for depth of focus, and the camera selects the speed.
    > I set the speed to freeze motion, and the camera selects the aperture.
    > I put it on manual, and can set both, even intentionally off if I want to.
    >
    > Now, the question. I turn on the flash.
    >
    > Does the camera use the settings I put in, or does it go into control of the
    > camera, and change any of the settings? I have taken many photos of the
    > same thing at many various settings, and I do know the photos come out
    > differently. I was just wondering about this part of the camera's actual
    > functioning.


    There is an old Riehle axiom that goes like this "One Test Is Worth A
    Thousand Expert Opinions."

    You have done some testing yet have questions. That tells me although
    you have viewed different results from your tests, you haven't done the
    type tests that will adequately answer your questions.

    With my equipment, although an attached flash (turned on) will fire at
    any setting, the exposure setting on the camera remains the controlling
    device. However, the flash will not override nor compensate for a bad
    camera/pictorial manual setup. The flashes only function is to produce
    light. How you use that that light (as coupled to the proper exposure
    setting in the camera) is somewhat complex and what you may have yet to
    learn.

    A good start, in the absence of tests, would be to read what has been
    published about the subject. Searching the Internet may prove be of some
    assistance.

    >
    > I apologize for the basic question, but I want to learn this from the ABC's
    > up, and I have a few missing letters.
    >
    > Steve
    >
    >
    >
    nick c, Jan 2, 2013
    #5
  6. Steve B

    Martin Brown Guest

    On 02/01/2013 01:40, nick c wrote:
    > On 1/1/2013 1:10 PM, Steve B wrote:
    >> Let's say that I change my setting for either aperture, speed, or manual
    >> priority.
    >>
    >> I set the aperture for depth of focus, and the camera selects the speed.
    >> I set the speed to freeze motion, and the camera selects the aperture.
    >> I put it on manual, and can set both, even intentionally off if I want
    >> to.
    >>
    >> Now, the question. I turn on the flash.
    >>
    >> Does the camera use the settings I put in, or does it go into control
    >> of the
    >> camera, and change any of the settings? I have taken many photos of the
    >> same thing at many various settings, and I do know the photos come out
    >> differently. I was just wondering about this part of the camera's actual
    >> functioning.

    >
    > There is an old Riehle axiom that goes like this "One Test Is Worth A
    > Thousand Expert Opinions."
    >
    > You have done some testing yet have questions. That tells me although
    > you have viewed different results from your tests, you haven't done the
    > type tests that will adequately answer your questions.


    There is no better way to find out than my doing the experiment
    yourself. With digital no film is wasted either so it is easy to do.
    >
    > With my equipment, although an attached flash (turned on) will fire at
    > any setting, the exposure setting on the camera remains the controlling
    > device. However, the flash will not override nor compensate for a bad
    > camera/pictorial manual setup. The flashes only function is to produce
    > light. How you use that that light (as coupled to the proper exposure
    > setting in the camera) is somewhat complex and what you may have yet to
    > learn.


    Some dedicated flashes are a fair bit more sophisticated than that.
    A brief introduction to TTL metered flashguns on Pentax is at:

    http://www.pentaxuser.co.uk/forum/topic/Digital-SLR-and-PTTL-flash-guide-4323

    These smart flashes will correctly expose a scene on average using TTL
    metering provided that their output is sufficient to do the job. They
    can only provide light output upto their max guide number.

    They also offer control over when the flash fires in relation to leading
    or trailing curtain edge. Sharpest is when the shutter is open for the
    shortest possible time consistent with obtaining flash sync.
    >
    > A good start, in the absence of tests, would be to read what has been
    > published about the subject. Searching the Internet may prove be of some
    > assistance.
    >
    >>
    >> I apologize for the basic question, but I want to learn this from the
    >> ABC's
    >> up, and I have a few missing letters.
    >>
    >> Steve


    The make and model of camera and flashgun is needed to give specific
    advice.

    --
    Regards,
    Martin Brown
    Martin Brown, Jan 2, 2013
    #6
  7. Steve B

    DanP Guest

    On Tue, 01 Jan 2013 14:10:24 -0700, Steve B wrote:

    > Let's say that I change my setting for either aperture, speed, or manual
    > priority.
    >
    > I set the aperture for depth of focus, and the camera selects the speed.
    > I set the speed to freeze motion, and the camera selects the aperture.
    > I put it on manual, and can set both, even intentionally off if I want
    > to.
    >
    > Now, the question. I turn on the flash.
    >
    > Does the camera use the settings I put in, or does it go into control of
    > the camera, and change any of the settings? I have taken many photos of
    > the same thing at many various settings, and I do know the photos come
    > out differently. I was just wondering about this part of the camera's
    > actual functioning.
    >
    > I apologize for the basic question, but I want to learn this from the
    > ABC's up, and I have a few missing letters.
    >
    > Steve


    I could give you my opinion on this but I'll do something better.
    Well, see it for yourself. Imagine a way to find it out and do it.

    It takes less than a minute to grab your camera, take the shots and look
    at the results.

    If you add flash the light distribution in the scene will be different, ie
    the background will have less light and foreground will be bright but
    overall the exposure should be right. Check histogram.


    DanP
    DanP, Jan 2, 2013
    #7
  8. Steve B

    Martin Brown Guest

    On 02/01/2013 11:22, DanP wrote:
    > On Tue, 01 Jan 2013 14:10:24 -0700, Steve B wrote:
    >
    >> Let's say that I change my setting for either aperture, speed, or manual
    >> priority.
    >>
    >> I set the aperture for depth of focus, and the camera selects the speed.
    >> I set the speed to freeze motion, and the camera selects the aperture.
    >> I put it on manual, and can set both, even intentionally off if I want
    >> to.
    >>
    >> Now, the question. I turn on the flash.
    >>
    >> Does the camera use the settings I put in, or does it go into control of
    >> the camera, and change any of the settings? I have taken many photos of
    >> the same thing at many various settings, and I do know the photos come
    >> out differently. I was just wondering about this part of the camera's
    >> actual functioning.
    >>
    >> I apologize for the basic question, but I want to learn this from the
    >> ABC's up, and I have a few missing letters.
    >>
    >> Steve

    >
    > I could give you my opinion on this but I'll do something better.
    > Well, see it for yourself. Imagine a way to find it out and do it.
    >
    > It takes less than a minute to grab your camera, take the shots and look
    > at the results.
    >
    > If you add flash the light distribution in the scene will be different, ie
    > the background will have less light and foreground will be bright but
    > overall the exposure should be right. Check histogram.



    You need something fast moving and preferably with a known timebase in
    the image to be able to distinguish the various advanced features.
    Spinning wheel or in the old days a tube based TVs were good.

    --
    Regards,
    Martin Brown
    Martin Brown, Jan 2, 2013
    #8
  9. Steve B

    Steve B Guest

    "DanP" <> wrote

    <I agree with your proposition to take lots of test pics.>
    >
    > If you add flash the light distribution in the scene will be different, ie
    > the background will have less light and foreground will be bright but
    > overall the exposure should be right. Check histogram.
    >
    >
    > DanP


    I have decided on the SB-910, and yes, I probably will take a lot of test
    pictures. I also want to investigate an umbrella, as I take hummer photos
    on a davit that swings 8' out from the patio, so that I can get the sky
    behind, and use sun angles. I take about 100 pictures of hummers for one
    that I keep. Good thing it's not film.

    Steve
    Steve B, Jan 2, 2013
    #9
  10. Steve B

    Peter Guest

    On 1/1/2013 5:32 PM, Tony Cooper wrote:
    > On Tue, 01 Jan 2013 17:17:29 -0500, Robert Coe <> wrote:
    >
    >> On Tue, 1 Jan 2013 14:10:24 -0700, "Steve B" <> wrote:
    >> : Let's say that I change my setting for either aperture, speed, or manual
    >> : priority.
    >> :
    >> : I set the aperture for depth of focus, and the camera selects the speed.
    >> : I set the speed to freeze motion, and the camera selects the aperture.
    >> : I put it on manual, and can set both, even intentionally off if I want to.
    >> :
    >> : Now, the question. I turn on the flash.
    >> :
    >> : Does the camera use the settings I put in, or does it go into control of
    >> : the camera, and change any of the settings? I have taken many photos of
    >> : the same thing at many various settings, and I do know the photos come out
    >> : differently. I was just wondering about this part of the camera's actual
    >> : functioning.
    >> :
    >> : I apologize for the basic question, but I want to learn this from the ABC's
    >> : up, and I have a few missing letters.
    >>
    >> That's a very complex question that has no short answer. It depends on the
    >> camera, the flash unit, and the chosen settings for each. To obtain a reliable
    >> answer, you'll have to read the manuals for both the camera and the flash
    >> you're using, then come back with more specific questions about what you
    >> didn't understand in the manuals.
    >>
    >> And don't imagine that it's a great simplification if you're using the
    >> camera's built-in flash. Unless you're too knowledgeable to have asked such a
    >> broad question, you can regard the built-in flash as simply a rather lame
    >> external flash that happens to be located on the camera and pointed in the
    >> same direction as the lens.

    >
    > He doesn't really have to read the manual to know. All he has to do
    > is take a series of photos and then look at the EXIF data. If he knows
    > what his settings were, he can compare that to the actual settings the
    > camera used.
    >
    > On my Nikon, it's even simpler. Just look at the LCD on the back
    > after each shot and read the numbers.
    >
    > I just set it at M, picked a speed and aperture, and fired it with no
    > flash, built-in flash, and external flash. Each photograph was taken
    > at the same speed and aperture that I set.


    I only use manual for high speed synch, so I will only eliminate the
    background. I think you meant to say that while varying the aperture
    will give the same exposure, naturally the depth of field will vary.

    >
    > Setting the aperture only had the same result...all the same.
    >
    >



    --
    PeterN
    Peter, Jan 2, 2013
    #10
  11. Steve B

    Peter Guest

    On 1/1/2013 4:10 PM, Steve B wrote:
    > Let's say that I change my setting for either aperture, speed, or manual
    > priority.
    >
    > I set the aperture for depth of focus, and the camera selects the speed.
    > I set the speed to freeze motion, and the camera selects the aperture.
    > I put it on manual, and can set both, even intentionally off if I want to.
    >
    > Now, the question. I turn on the flash.
    >
    > Does the camera use the settings I put in, or does it go into control of the
    > camera, and change any of the settings? I have taken many photos of the
    > same thing at many various settings, and I do know the photos come out
    > differently. I was just wondering about this part of the camera's actual
    > functioning.
    >
    > I apologize for the basic question, but I want to learn this from the ABC's
    > up, and I have a few missing letters.
    >
    > Steve
    >
    >
    >

    See this bawic discussion of flash modes:
    <http://www.scantips.com/lights/flashbasics5.html>

    --
    PeterN
    Peter, Jan 2, 2013
    #11
  12. Steve B

    Peter Guest

    On 1/2/2013 11:53 AM, Steve B wrote:
    > "DanP" <> wrote
    >
    > <I agree with your proposition to take lots of test pics.>
    >>
    >> If you add flash the light distribution in the scene will be different, ie
    >> the background will have less light and foreground will be bright but
    >> overall the exposure should be right. Check histogram.
    >>
    >>
    >> DanP

    >
    > I have decided on the SB-910, and yes, I probably will take a lot of test
    > pictures. I also want to investigate an umbrella, as I take hummer photos
    > on a davit that swings 8' out from the patio, so that I can get the sky
    > behind, and use sun angles. I take about 100 pictures of hummers for one
    > that I keep. Good thing it's not film.
    >
    > Steve


    I wish my keeper ratio with hummers was that high.


    --
    PeterN
    Peter, Jan 2, 2013
    #12
  13. Steve B

    Mort Guest

    Steve B wrote:
    > Let's say that I change my setting for either aperture, speed, or manual
    > priority.
    >
    > I set the aperture for depth of focus, and the camera selects the speed.
    > I set the speed to freeze motion, and the camera selects the aperture.
    > I put it on manual, and can set both, even intentionally off if I want to.
    >
    > Now, the question. I turn on the flash.
    >
    > Does the camera use the settings I put in, or does it go into control of the
    > camera, and change any of the settings? I have taken many photos of the
    > same thing at many various settings, and I do know the photos come out
    > differently. I was just wondering about this part of the camera's actual
    > functioning.
    >
    > I apologize for the basic question, but I want to learn this from the ABC's
    > up, and I have a few missing letters.
    >
    > Steve
    >
    >
    >

    Hi,

    A bit of spare time spent on some tests will save you much grief later
    on. Try taking pictures at various settings, then view them, or print
    them and view the prints side by side. See what works for you, and what
    does not. Although you can check the exif data, I found it easier to
    make a written flow sheet to refer to, while comparing the pictures.
    What works for one of us might not work for you, so be your own tester.
    You won't regret it. As a bonus, you can then delete all the test
    exposures from your memory card.

    I did this with a new camera regarding the settings for in-camera
    sharpening, color, contrast, etc., and was surprised with some of the
    results.

    Good luck.

    Mort Linder
    Mort, Jan 3, 2013
    #13
  14. Steve B

    Tony Cooper Guest

    On Wed, 02 Jan 2013 17:15:41 -0500, Peter <>
    wrote:

    >On 1/1/2013 5:32 PM, Tony Cooper wrote:
    >> On Tue, 01 Jan 2013 17:17:29 -0500, Robert Coe <> wrote:
    >>
    >>> On Tue, 1 Jan 2013 14:10:24 -0700, "Steve B" <> wrote:
    >>> : Let's say that I change my setting for either aperture, speed, or manual
    >>> : priority.
    >>> :
    >>> : I set the aperture for depth of focus, and the camera selects the speed.
    >>> : I set the speed to freeze motion, and the camera selects the aperture.
    >>> : I put it on manual, and can set both, even intentionally off if I want to.
    >>> :
    >>> : Now, the question. I turn on the flash.
    >>> :
    >>> : Does the camera use the settings I put in, or does it go into control of
    >>> : the camera, and change any of the settings? I have taken many photos of
    >>> : the same thing at many various settings, and I do know the photos come out
    >>> : differently. I was just wondering about this part of the camera's actual
    >>> : functioning.


    >> On my Nikon, it's even simpler. Just look at the LCD on the back
    >> after each shot and read the numbers.
    >>
    >> I just set it at M, picked a speed and aperture, and fired it with no
    >> flash, built-in flash, and external flash. Each photograph was taken
    >> at the same speed and aperture that I set.

    >
    >I only use manual for high speed synch, so I will only eliminate the
    >background. I think you meant to say that while varying the aperture
    >will give the same exposure, naturally the depth of field will vary.
    >

    I didn't say anything about varying the aperture. All I did was set
    speed and aperture in M on my camera and shoot a frame with no flash,
    built-in flash, and my external flash. I was looking to see if the
    flash affected these two settings. It didn't, and that was the answer
    with my camera to the OP's question.


    >> Setting the aperture only had the same result...all the same.
    >>
    >>


    --
    Tony Cooper, Orlando FL
    Tony Cooper, Jan 3, 2013
    #14
  15. Steve B

    Steve B Guest

    <> wrote

    >
    > My external flash (sb700) has solved this problem by firing several times
    > during
    > the shutter travel time, and can do 1/4000 or faster.


    Do you know if that is a feature of the sb910 also?

    Steve
    Steve B, Jan 4, 2013
    #15
  16. Steve B

    Rob Guest

    On 4/01/2013 1:26 PM, Steve B wrote:
    > <> wrote
    >
    >>
    >> My external flash (sb700) has solved this problem by firing several times
    >> during
    >> the shutter travel time, and can do 1/4000 or faster.

    >
    > Do you know if that is a feature of the sb910 also?
    >
    > Steve
    >
    >



    Do you have the SB910, if so have you checked the manual.
    Rob, Jan 4, 2013
    #16
  17. Steve B

    Steve B Guest

    "Rob" <> wrote in message
    news:kc5khf$445$...
    > On 4/01/2013 1:26 PM, Steve B wrote:
    >> <> wrote
    >>
    >>>
    >>> My external flash (sb700) has solved this problem by firing several
    >>> times
    >>> during
    >>> the shutter travel time, and can do 1/4000 or faster.

    >>
    >> Do you know if that is a feature of the sb910 also?
    >>
    >> Steve
    >>
    >>

    >
    >
    > Do you have the SB910, if so have you checked the manual.


    Am considering it to go with a D7000.

    Steve
    Steve B, Jan 4, 2013
    #17
  18. Steve B

    me Guest

    On Fri, 04 Jan 2013 15:07:10 +1100, Rob <>
    wrote:

    >On 4/01/2013 1:26 PM, Steve B wrote:
    >> <> wrote
    >>
    >>>
    >>> My external flash (sb700) has solved this problem by firing several times
    >>> during
    >>> the shutter travel time, and can do 1/4000 or faster.

    >>
    >> Do you know if that is a feature of the sb910 also?
    >>
    >> Steve
    >>
    >>

    >
    >
    >Do you have the SB910, if so have you checked the manual.


    http://support.nikonusa.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/17628
    me, Jan 4, 2013
    #18
  19. Alfred Molon <> wrote:
    > The problem is that lots of cameras suck and have minimum exposure times
    > of 1/160s or 1/250s with the flash on, i.e. you can't for instance shoot
    > at 1/1000s or 1/2000s if you are using the flash.


    Couple solutions:
    - Use an ND filter
    - Use a lower ISO setting (if available)
    - Set the flash to a say 70kHz flicker. Called FP with Canon.
    Costs some light (the more the faster the shutter is) and ---
    of course --- doesn't flash freeze any more.

    > This is a problem for instance if you are shooting at wide apertures in
    > bright light and are using the flash for fill-in. The damned cameras
    > instead of allowing 1/2000s will force 1/160s and this will result in
    > huge overexposures.


    The cameras can even do 1/4000s and 1/8000s.

    > This problem apparently comes from the mechanical shutter which is still
    > in use in many cameras, especially DSLRs. Could be solved if camera
    > makers finally got rid of mechanical shutters and used electronic
    > shutters instead.


    Have you ever considered that there may be drawbacks to an
    electronic 'shutter' which are much greater than the advantages
    you get from a higher sync speed? Sensor and camera makers
    would switch immediately to electronic shutter for DSLRs,
    if that was advantageous. Instead they prefer a mechanical
    shutter which needs space and high-tech engineering for a usable
    life span ... so basically either they *all* are braindead or
    they know something you don't.

    -Wolfgang
    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Jan 10, 2013
    #19
  20. David Dyer-Bennet <> wrote:

    > Generally, if a modern camera is set in a half-automatic mode (aperture
    > priority or shutter priority), the thing you set will remain as you set
    > it, and the overall exposure chosen by the camera will be primarily
    > based on the flash.


    Really? Last I read, Canon is claimed to use fill flash mode
    over LV 10 ('dreary London overcast outside light levels').
    Which makes sense ...

    -Wolfgang
    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Jan 10, 2013
    #20
    1. Advertising

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