Bad media, bad files or bad Nero?

Discussion in 'Computer Information' started by John, Dec 31, 2007.

  1. John

    John Guest

    I have a project in Nero that I've been trying to burn onto a Dual
    Layer DVD+R disc. So far unfortunately without success (4 new beer
    mats!).

    I have encoded the project and I am just burning the Video_TS and
    Audio_TS using the burning Rom.

    So far though upon playback I always seem to have one or two titles
    that have errors. It might say unexpected DVD error, unable to read
    part of dvd playback might be effected etc and then it stops the video
    playing. Have tested on my computers DVD drive as well as regular DVD
    player so have ruled out hardware being the problem.

    The best I have been able to do so far is to get the errors down so
    that it is just two titles out of the 24 that have errors which are
    slide shows with music towards the end of the DVD. No matter how many
    times I try to sort it out though e.g. try a different music file or
    export and then reimport the video to see if that helps, then next
    time I have re-encoded the whole project and burning to DVD again, it
    seems it is something else that then has the problem a different title
    that was okay previously. So I am sceptical that it was a problem with
    any of the video or audio files in the project esp after Nero has
    encoded it all.

    It seems really strange this, so I am thinking that either it is just
    bad DL media that I am using or maybe Nero has an error when it is
    encoding or burning the DVD? Surely though if it is bad DL media I
    wouldn't have 4 coasters in a row? The chances of that are quite slim,
    you would have at least got one good burn out of four usually even
    with a bad bunch of media you have half okay half bad.

    I am thinking that perhaps I will just try burning on a single layer
    disc to see if that makes a difference. Unfortunately if I do that I
    will either have to reduce the quality of the video files quite a lot
    so they fit on the one disc, or somehow split the project in two and
    have it over 2 discs. Was wondering if many people burning their own
    DVDs have experienced similar problems using Dual Layer media and
    found single layer more reliable?

    It's been a real pain this because it takes just over 7 hours for Nero
    Vision Express to encode all the files, then it takes just over 40
    minutes to burn onto a blank DL DVD+R disc.

    My project contains quite a lot of slides shows with background music
    and 4 DV video files from MiniDV camcorder. Two of the video files are
    just three minutes long, one is about 30 minutes long and the other is
    1 hour and 20 minutes in length.

    Do you think it will make a difference if I export all the individual
    titles and bring back in again so that all the effects, texts, music,
    edits etc are all within the one video file and then not creating any
    chapters for the different titles? I am thinking perhaps having less
    individual elements making this whole project up will mean less parts
    of it can go wrong?

    John
    John, Dec 31, 2007
    #1
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  2. John

    :Jerry: Guest

    "John" <> wrote in message
    news:...

    <snip>
    >
    > It seems really strange this, so I am thinking that either it is
    > just
    > bad DL media that I am using or maybe Nero has an error when it is
    > encoding or burning the DVD? Surely though if it is bad DL media I
    > wouldn't have 4 coasters in a row? The chances of that are quite
    > slim,
    > you would have at least got one good burn out of four usually even
    > with a bad bunch of media you have half okay half bad.
    >


    Hmm, it's unlikely that you have a whole batch of bad disks but what
    it could be is that the media is incompatible with the burner,
    although rare these days it can still occur, I would certainly try
    different media.

    FU's set.
    :Jerry:, Dec 31, 2007
    #2
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  3. John

    G Hardy Guest

    > It's been a real pain this because it takes just over 7 hours for Nero
    > Vision Express to encode all the files, then it takes just over 40
    > minutes to burn onto a blank DL DVD+R disc.


    Can't NVE burn to a VIDEO_TS folder on the hard drive? Then all you need to
    do is watch it in Showtime to make sure the files are OK and burn with Nero
    Express. If you make a coaster (for whatever reason) you don't have to go
    through the encoding process again.


    > My project contains quite a lot of slides shows with background music
    > and 4 DV video files from MiniDV camcorder. Two of the video files are
    > just three minutes long, one is about 30 minutes long and the other is
    > 1 hour and 20 minutes in length.


    You might find that the video is being encoded at the maximum bitrate, which
    is a problem for a lot of DVD players with DVDR media. For DV sourced
    material, you won't see a benefit with the video bitrate higher than
    6500kbps. If you have the time to wait for two-pass VBR, you can set the
    average from 4500 to 6500kbps and it will still be impossible to see any
    difference from the source material.

    In the video editor part, click the "More" button and then click "Video
    options". In the DVD-Video tab, change the quality setting from "Automatic"
    to "Standard Play" and the Encoding mode to "High quality". If you can, you
    should also change the audio to Dolby 2.0 rather than Stereo.


    > Do you think it will make a difference if I export all the individual
    > titles and bring back in again so that all the effects, texts, music,
    > edits etc are all within the one video file and then not creating any
    > chapters for the different titles?


    I don't think it will make a great deal of difference - if possible, you
    should always avoid rendering to an intermediate filetype before creating
    your DVD.


    > ...I am thinking perhaps having less
    > individual elements making this whole project up will mean less parts
    > of it can go wrong?


    If that's an option, you might find better compatibility with single-layer
    DVDR than dual. The price-per-gigabyte of dual has never come down as low as
    single, so all my chargeable work has been sent out on SL discs. I've never
    had a return - ever. (Well, not because of compatibility problems anyway.)
    If the average bitrate needs to drop below 3000kbps in order to fit onto SL
    disc, I just span the content across two discs.
    G Hardy, Dec 31, 2007
    #3
  4. John

    Keith Guest

    John wrote:
    > I have a project in Nero that I've been trying to burn onto a Dual
    > Layer DVD+R disc. So far unfortunately without success (4 new beer
    > mats!).
    >
    > I have encoded the project and I am just burning the Video_TS and
    > Audio_TS using the burning Rom.
    >

    Bad Nero.... Bad Bad Naughty Nero... ;-)

    John, I use lots of different tools. One of them is ImgBurn. You can
    get it at http://www.videohelp.com. Use "Build" mode, point it to the
    VIDEO_TS folder and select "Device" to burn a disc. Works like a
    champ! Here's a Tutorial...
    http://www.afterdawn.com/guides/archive/burn_dvd_folder_imgburn.cfm.
    > So far though upon playback I always seem to have one or two titles
    > that have errors. It might say unexpected DVD error, unable to read
    > part of dvd playback might be effected etc and then it stops the video
    > playing. Have tested on my computers DVD drive as well as regular DVD
    > player so have ruled out hardware being the problem.
    >
    > The best I have been able to do so far is to get the errors down so
    > that it is just two titles out of the 24 that have errors which are
    > slide shows with music towards the end of the DVD. No matter how many
    > times I try to sort it out though e.g. try a different music file or
    > export and then reimport the video to see if that helps, then next
    > time I have re-encoded the whole project and burning to DVD again, it
    > seems it is something else that then has the problem a different title
    > that was okay previously. So I am sceptical that it was a problem with
    > any of the video or audio files in the project esp after Nero has
    > encoded it all.
    >
    > It seems really strange this, so I am thinking that either it is just
    > bad DL media that I am using or maybe Nero has an error when it is
    > encoding or burning the DVD? Surely though if it is bad DL media I
    > wouldn't have 4 coasters in a row? The chances of that are quite slim,
    > you would have at least got one good burn out of four usually even
    > with a bad bunch of media you have half okay half bad.
    >
    > I am thinking that perhaps I will just try burning on a single layer
    > disc to see if that makes a difference. Unfortunately if I do that I
    > will either have to reduce the quality of the video files quite a lot
    > so they fit on the one disc, or somehow split the project in two and
    > have it over 2 discs. Was wondering if many people burning their own
    > DVDs have experienced similar problems using Dual Layer media and
    > found single layer more reliable?
    >
    > It's been a real pain this because it takes just over 7 hours for Nero
    > Vision Express to encode all the files, then it takes just over 40
    > minutes to burn onto a blank DL DVD+R disc.
    >

    John, you really need to find out what type of video file Nero will use
    without Transcoding! For instance, I use a Hauppauge WinPVR-250 (with
    hardware encoder) to record programs into MPEG-2 DVD Program files using
    VBR / max 6200 Mbps video, MP2 / 48 KHz / 128 Kbps / 16 bit / stereo
    audio. I use MovieFactory to author the discs, with the video & audio
    parameters set the same. It will assemble and burn a 2 hour movie in
    about 1/2 hour -- with _no Transcoding_. Without doing like that, it
    used to take about 5 hours on a 1.2 GHz Athlon machine!
    > My project contains quite a lot of slides shows with background music
    > and 4 DV video files from MiniDV camcorder. Two of the video files are
    > just three minutes long, one is about 30 minutes long and the other is
    > 1 hour and 20 minutes in length.
    >
    > Do you think it will make a difference if I export all the individual
    > titles and bring back in again so that all the effects, texts, music,
    > edits etc are all within the one video file and then not creating any
    > chapters for the different titles? I am thinking perhaps having less
    > individual elements making this whole project up will mean less parts
    > of it can go wrong?
    >
    > John
    >
    Keith, Dec 31, 2007
    #4
  5. John

    Keith Guest

    G Hardy wrote:
    >> ...I am thinking perhaps having less
    >> individual elements making this whole project up will mean less parts
    >> of it can go wrong?

    >
    > If that's an option, you might find better compatibility with
    > single-layer DVDR than dual. The price-per-gigabyte of dual has never
    > come down as low as single, so all my chargeable work has been sent
    > out on SL discs. I've never had a return - ever. (Well, not because of
    > compatibility problems anyway.) If the average bitrate needs to drop
    > below 3000kbps in order to fit onto SL disc, I just span the content
    > across two discs.

    I agree... And I just thought of something else... I use DVD Shrink to
    avoid the high cost of dual-layer disks. Just point it to your VIDEO_TS
    folder, it'll shrink it, make an ".ISO" file, and use Nero to burn a
    single-layer 4.7 GB disc. You can get it at
    http://www.afterdawn.com/software/video_software/dvd_rippers/dvd_shrink.cfm.

    BTW.... If it won't use Nero to burn, just get ImgBurn from
    http://www.videohelp.com. (You could get DVD Shrink there too)

    Cheerio,

    Keith
    Keith, Dec 31, 2007
    #5
  6. John

    G Hardy Guest

    > I agree... And I just thought of something else... I use DVD Shrink to
    > avoid the high cost of dual-layer disks....


    The OP can use Nero Recode - he can recode direct from the DVD disc to a
    directory on the hard drive - in fact if he does that, and the problems
    "disappear", the issue is either the bitrate or the compatibility of the DVD
    media he's using.
    G Hardy, Dec 31, 2007
    #6
  7. John

    John Guest


    >Do you have to split them yourself or does Nero split them to record both
    >sides. A bit like when coping a DVD to a DVD+ R it stops and asks for a
    >second disc to be inserted., I hav not botherd with DL as its quicker and
    >cheaper to use two discs


    That would be interesting to know.

    I just went back into Nero re-encoded using lower quality setting for
    the video files. I changed it from Standard Play to Extended Play. So
    this has dropped the quality from 5073 kbits/s to 2537.

    I have sucessfully burned it onto a Verbatim DVD-RW disc.

    I am curious to know now why it wouldn't burn onto the DL +R discs.

    My drive supports Dual layer so perhaps it was just those particular
    discs that were at fault? Maybe if I tried Verbatims either DL +R or
    DL -R it would work?

    I think it was either a bad batch of DL +R discs, or maybe my machine
    prefers -R discs to +R for making a Video DVD? I've not had problems
    burning data to Dual Layer +R discs in the past but they were
    Verbatims.

    I might buy a couple DL+R and DL -R Verbatims just to test on and see
    if it can burn to these.

    It would be interesting to know though for single sided discs if I
    kept the quality the same would Nero Burning Rom let me start the burn
    to a single layer disc if it knew my video_ts contents was more than
    the 4.7GB? And would it then ask for the second disc halfway through?
    Or can you just not do this sort of spanning with Nero for a Video
    DVD?

    If you wanted to keep the quality the same and span two single layer
    discs to do that and Nero burning Rom wouldn't allow you to do it that
    way then you'd probably have to go into the project in NVE again split
    it halfway and as the last screen just put in a slide show with one
    image displayed for 5 minutes saying to change discs. That would be a
    way round that if Nero Burning Rom doesn't allow spanning. You would
    have to re-encode everything again though.

    John
    John, Jan 2, 2008
    #7
  8. John

    John Guest


    >Can't NVE burn to a VIDEO_TS folder on the hard drive? Then all you need to
    >do is watch it in Showtime to make sure the files are OK and burn with Nero
    >Express. If you make a coaster (for whatever reason) you don't have to go
    >through the encoding process again.


    Hi. That is what I had been doing. NVE had been encoding the video_ts
    folder onto my hard drive and then I've been burning using Nero
    burning rom onto dvd disc.

    I hadn't thought that I would be able to watch the dvd from the hard
    drive video_ts folder prior to burning. That is a good idea that. I've
    just gone into Nero Showtime now and noticed this "play from folder"
    option in the menu so I will have to check if the previous titles that
    didn't work on the DL media work when I try playing from the hard
    drive instead. I have kept a backup of two previous encodings I did to
    the HDD in standard quality for the DL discs so will test this out
    very soon.

    >> My project contains quite a lot of slides shows with background music
    >> and 4 DV video files from MiniDV camcorder. Two of the video files are
    >> just three minutes long, one is about 30 minutes long and the other is
    >> 1 hour and 20 minutes in length.

    >
    >You might find that the video is being encoded at the maximum bitrate, which
    >is a problem for a lot of DVD players with DVDR media. For DV sourced
    >material, you won't see a benefit with the video bitrate higher than
    >6500kbps. If you have the time to wait for two-pass VBR, you can set the
    >average from 4500 to 6500kbps and it will still be impossible to see any
    >difference from the source material.


    The quality of my video when I was encoding for the DL disc was 5073
    kbits/s (standard play) but I had to drop this to 2537 kbits/s for the
    single layer disc. I think the maximum bit rate would be the High
    Quality setting in NVE and that is 9716 kbits/s.

    All my video is captured from mini-DV and I would like it to be at the
    best quality possible, as close to the original source as possible
    while getting it onto a DL disc. My average setting was the Standard
    Play mode which was 5073 kbits/s and I don't really want to drop this
    to 2537 so it fits on single layer.


    >In the video editor part, click the "More" button and then click "Video
    >options". In the DVD-Video tab, change the quality setting from "Automatic"
    >to "Standard Play" and the Encoding mode to "High quality". If you can, you
    >should also change the audio to Dolby 2.0 rather than Stereo.


    I already had the setting on Standard Play and it was on a high
    quality 2 pass VBR encoding. I had kept the audio though on Automatic
    setting. I will try changing that to Dolby as well.

    >> Do you think it will make a difference if I export all the individual
    >> titles and bring back in again so that all the effects, texts, music,
    >> edits etc are all within the one video file and then not creating any
    >> chapters for the different titles?

    >
    >I don't think it will make a great deal of difference - if possible, you
    >should always avoid rendering to an intermediate filetype before creating
    >your DVD.
    >
    >
    >> ...I am thinking perhaps having less
    >> individual elements making this whole project up will mean less parts
    >> of it can go wrong?

    >
    >If that's an option, you might find better compatibility with single-layer
    >DVDR than dual. The price-per-gigabyte of dual has never come down as low as
    >single, so all my chargeable work has been sent out on SL discs. I've never
    >had a return - ever. (Well, not because of compatibility problems anyway.)
    >If the average bitrate needs to drop below 3000kbps in order to fit onto SL
    >disc, I just span the content across two discs.


    Is it below 3000kbps that you start to notice the difference in
    quality? The video I watched back on parts of the DL discs that worked
    did look a lot better than what it does on this single layer rw disc I
    have burned to.

    I will have to try playing back the folders in Nero Show Time from the
    original burns I did to Hard Drive and see if those ones work that
    didn't work when I burned to DL disc. I am going to get some
    Verbatims though both +R and -R DLs to see if it works on them.

    Cheers

    John
    John, Jan 2, 2008
    #8
  9. John

    John Guest

    On Wed, 02 Jan 2008 01:22:29 +0000, John <> wrote:

    >
    >>Can't NVE burn to a VIDEO_TS folder on the hard drive? Then all you need to
    >>do is watch it in Showtime to make sure the files are OK and burn with Nero
    >>Express. If you make a coaster (for whatever reason) you don't have to go
    >>through the encoding process again.


    I've just checked in Nero Showtime playing back the hard drive folder
    and it seems to be perfect in there. One part of the video plays back
    a little slow but I believe that is just my system. It looks good
    playing back the hard drive folder.

    It looks like this is pointing the way of bad +R DL media? Unless it
    didn't like me encoding at 5073 kbit/s (standard play)?

    John
    John, Jan 2, 2008
    #9
  10. John

    G Hardy Guest

    "John" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Wed, 02 Jan 2008 01:22:29 +0000, John <> wrote:
    >
    >>
    >>>Can't NVE burn to a VIDEO_TS folder on the hard drive? Then all you need
    >>>to
    >>>do is watch it in Showtime to make sure the files are OK and burn with
    >>>Nero
    >>>Express. If you make a coaster (for whatever reason) you don't have to go
    >>>through the encoding process again.

    >
    > I've just checked in Nero Showtime playing back the hard drive folder
    > and it seems to be perfect in there. One part of the video plays back
    > a little slow but I believe that is just my system. It looks good
    > playing back the hard drive folder.
    >
    > It looks like this is pointing the way of bad +R DL media? Unless it
    > didn't like me encoding at 5073 kbit/s (standard play)?


    Have you tried it in someone else's machine, or their media in your player?
    It's possible you have bad media, but it's possible you have a player that
    simply doesn't like DL discs. I've yet to try my latest player with DLs, but
    the next newest one 2½ years old) stutters with DL media.

    If it's an AVERAGE of 5073, then that's bad. Slow bits drop well below that
    rate so that fast bits can use more bandwidth - up to 9800. When the bitrate
    goes too high (with DVDR) then that's one area where you can experience
    stuttering playback. Even with SL discs.

    With a DV source, you'll probably not notice any problems with 5073 CBR,
    although some footage (confetti, sea surface, trees in the wind etc) may
    show slight artefacts.

    Just for more info: Pressed DVDs support a continuous video data rate of
    9800 kbps and an overall (that's everything: video, audio and subtitles)
    maximum of 10.08 kbps. A typical Hollywood film maintains an average of
    4000-5000 just for the video, so factor in a DTS soundtrack, a 5.1 AC3
    soundtrack and a handful of commentary or second language tracks and you're
    around a 5500 to 6500 average. That's for a high-quality source, and we're
    talking DV here...
    G Hardy, Jan 2, 2008
    #10
  11. John

    John Guest

    On Wed, 02 Jan 2008 02:42:36 GMT, "G Hardy"
    <> wrote:

    >"John" <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >> On Wed, 02 Jan 2008 01:22:29 +0000, John <> wrote:
    >>
    >>>
    >>>>Can't NVE burn to a VIDEO_TS folder on the hard drive? Then all you need
    >>>>to
    >>>>do is watch it in Showtime to make sure the files are OK and burn with
    >>>>Nero
    >>>>Express. If you make a coaster (for whatever reason) you don't have to go
    >>>>through the encoding process again.

    >>
    >> I've just checked in Nero Showtime playing back the hard drive folder
    >> and it seems to be perfect in there. One part of the video plays back
    >> a little slow but I believe that is just my system. It looks good
    >> playing back the hard drive folder.
    >>
    >> It looks like this is pointing the way of bad +R DL media? Unless it
    >> didn't like me encoding at 5073 kbit/s (standard play)?

    >
    >Have you tried it in someone else's machine, or their media in your player?


    Yeah. I tried the DL disc in a stand alone DVD Player as well
    connected to a television. It was faulty on that too so that's why I
    think its bad media. I will buy a few Verbatims both +R DL and -R DL
    and see if it works with them. It is very difficult to source -R DL
    though especially ones that have a printable surface, you just can't
    get them anywhere, it seems to be all +R for dual layer media.

    >It's possible you have bad media, but it's possible you have a player that
    >simply doesn't like DL discs. I've yet to try my latest player with DLs, but
    >the next newest one 2½ years old) stutters with DL media.


    I have the Pioneer DVR-109 burner on my PC for burning DVDs and I have
    the Pioneer DVD-106 (region free) for playing back on PC. Then I have
    a stand alone player as well connected to television. If my drive has
    a problem with this DL media, maybe it is just the +R DL media for
    video? It's just that I have burned data to +R DL media on my computer
    no problem.

    >If it's an AVERAGE of 5073, then that's bad. Slow bits drop well below that
    >rate so that fast bits can use more bandwidth - up to 9800. When the bitrate
    >goes too high (with DVDR) then that's one area where you can experience
    >stuttering playback. Even with SL discs.


    5073 kbits/s is the setting for standard play in NVE. Would you
    recommend changing that up or down? I could probably increase it about
    200 or 300 kbits/s higher if I select the custom setting but anymore
    than that and my project would not fit on a DL disc.

    John
    John, Jan 2, 2008
    #11
  12. John

    G Hardy Guest

    > 5073 kbits/s is the setting for standard play in NVE. Would you
    > recommend changing that up or down? I could probably increase it about
    > 200 or 300 kbits/s higher if I select the custom setting but anymore
    > than that and my project would not fit on a DL disc.


    If your project was 5500 kbits (say) then the project would need to be 3h
    26m for it to fill a DL disc.

    I thought from your OPs it was more of the order of 2h with a couple of
    slideshows set to music? Something's not adding up, here...
    G Hardy, Jan 2, 2008
    #12
  13. John

    John Guest

    On Wed, 02 Jan 2008 14:37:15 GMT, "G Hardy"
    <> wrote:

    >> 5073 kbits/s is the setting for standard play in NVE. Would you
    >> recommend changing that up or down? I could probably increase it about
    >> 200 or 300 kbits/s higher if I select the custom setting but anymore
    >> than that and my project would not fit on a DL disc.

    >
    >If your project was 5500 kbits (say) then the project would need to be 3h
    >26m for it to fill a DL disc.
    >
    >I thought from your OPs it was more of the order of 2h with a couple of
    >slideshows set to music? Something's not adding up, here...


    Hi, it is just over 3 hours in length.

    I have three video files. The first video file is just over 3 minutes
    in length. This is added to the project twice near the beginning. So
    that's about 6 mins 30 secs.

    The second video file is 34 minutes long and the third video file is 1
    hour 29 minutes long. Then I have opening credits 3 minutes long and
    closing credits about 4 minutes long.

    There are 16 slide shows with background music. These in total are
    about 54 minutes in length.

    So altogether with the video files, slideshows and opening and closing
    credits I have about 191 minutes just over 3 hours. This is all at
    720x576 (CCIR-601D1) 4:3 in Standard Play mode (5073 kbits/s). Used
    space as stated in NVE is 7.30 out of 7.95GB.

    John
    John, Jan 3, 2008
    #13
  14. John

    G Hardy Guest

    "John" <> wrote in message
    news:...

    >>I thought from your OPs it was more of the order of 2h with a couple of
    >>slideshows set to music? Something's not adding up, here...

    >
    > Hi, it is just over 3 hours in length.
    >
    > I have three video files. The first video file is just over 3 minutes
    > in length. This is added to the project twice near the beginning. So
    > that's about 6 mins 30 secs.
    >
    > The second video file is 34 minutes long and the third video file is 1
    > hour 29 minutes long. Then I have opening credits 3 minutes long and
    > closing credits about 4 minutes long.
    >
    > There are 16 slide shows with background music. These in total are
    > about 54 minutes in length.
    >
    > So altogether with the video files, slideshows and opening and closing
    > credits I have about 191 minutes just over 3 hours. This is all at
    > 720x576 (CCIR-601D1) 4:3 in Standard Play mode (5073 kbits/s). Used
    > space as stated in NVE is 7.30 out of 7.95GB.


    The slideshows' effect on the amount of discspace needed will be quite
    small - unless they are actually videos made up of still images, in which
    case they are not true slideshows but videos. It's semantics, but important.
    As far as I can tell, a DVD slideshow is a series of navigable single frames
    encoded as MPEG I frames, and you can specify the time between frames etc.
    So basically you end up with a tiny video file, with the audio taking up
    more room. If there are fancy effects like image panning and crossfades,
    what you've actually got is a video, and there's no need to distinguish that
    from the other video on your DVD.

    If Nero does create slideshows as video, you should make your DVD folder at
    the highest acceptable bitrate, then use Nero Recode to get it down to
    single layer disc size. Recode will analyse the video to determine where it
    can make savings and will yield the best quality for the available space.

    Rounding everything up to the next minute, I get:
    7+35+90+4+5+55 = 196 minutes or 11,760 sec

    On a DL disc you have 8.5GB which is 68,000,000 kbit
    Divide the latter by the former to get a desired average bitrate (audio +
    video) of 5780 kbit/s

    On a SL disc you have 4.7GB which is 37,600,000 kbit
    yielding a desired average bitrate (audio + video) of 3190 kbit/s

    Use AC3 at 225kbit to give average video bitrates of 5556 and 2966 kbit/s
    respectively

    Considering your source media is stills and DV, I reckon that creating the
    VIDEO_TS folder for DL disc and then running it through recode for SL discs
    will get rid of your stutter problem and still yield acceptable quality.
    Note that crossfades on stills are particularly demanding on bandwidth, so
    if your slideshow has them, consider replacing them with a different
    transition.

    As yet, I haven't seen anything to convince me that it's bad media. I'm not
    saying that's not the problem, just that it could be a player issue. If it
    is bad media, I _do_ think it's likely to be a whole batch (the only time
    I've had problems it's been with every disc in a tub. Started a new tub
    after a dozen or so failures - problem went away). Have you tried Jerry's
    suggestion of different media?
    G Hardy, Jan 3, 2008
    #14
  15. John

    :Jerry: Guest

    [ One group cut, not available on my posting server ]

    "G Hardy" <> wrote in message
    news:9L2fj.25584$...

    <snip>
    >
    > As yet, I haven't seen anything to convince me that it's bad media.
    > I'm not saying that's not the problem, just that it could be a
    > player issue. If it is bad media, I _do_ think it's likely to be a
    > whole batch (the only time I've had problems it's been with every
    > disc in a tub. Started a new tub after a dozen or so failures -
    > problem went away). Have you tried Jerry's suggestion of different
    > media?


    I would also add (or should I say repeat), that there could be an
    incompatibility between media and burner, I've had this once - my then
    burner kept kicking out floaters, used a different make (dye) and all
    was well, I have since changed the burner and used the old media
    without problem in this new burner - go figure...

    FU's set
    :Jerry:, Jan 3, 2008
    #15
  16. John

    John Guest


    >> So altogether with the video files, slideshows and opening and closing
    >> credits I have about 191 minutes just over 3 hours. This is all at
    >> 720x576 (CCIR-601D1) 4:3 in Standard Play mode (5073 kbits/s). Used
    >> space as stated in NVE is 7.30 out of 7.95GB.

    >
    >The slideshows' effect on the amount of discspace needed will be quite
    >small - unless they are actually videos made up of still images, in which
    >case they are not true slideshows but videos. It's semantics, but important.


    Yes they are definitely slideshows made up from still images not video
    files.

    >As far as I can tell, a DVD slideshow is a series of navigable single frames
    >encoded as MPEG I frames, and you can specify the time between frames etc.
    >So basically you end up with a tiny video file, with the audio taking up
    >more room. If there are fancy effects like image panning and crossfades,
    >what you've actually got is a video, and there's no need to distinguish that
    >from the other video on your DVD.


    I do have crossfades between the different photos in the slideshows.
    It does seem to be the background music that takes up most of the
    space on the slideshows.

    >If Nero does create slideshows as video, you should make your DVD folder at
    >the highest acceptable bitrate, then use Nero Recode to get it down to
    >single layer disc size. Recode will analyse the video to determine where it
    >can make savings and will yield the best quality for the available space.


    I might have to have a look into this. I thought that Nero Recode just
    converted to MP4 format which I wouldn't really want to do because the
    quality isn't as good, but if it can just recode the original files
    and do a better job of that than NVE then I might give it a shot.

    If it makes the end product better quality on a single layer disc I'll
    give it a go and see if its good enough. I do think though that I will
    probably have to get this onto a dual layer disc, or over two single
    layer ones.

    >Rounding everything up to the next minute, I get:
    >7+35+90+4+5+55 = 196 minutes or 11,760 sec


    I had already done the rounding up/down to the nearest minute ;) e.g
    the second video file may have been 33 minutes and about 20 secs so I
    called that 33 mins, and the third video 1hr 29 was 1hr 28mins 42 secs
    etc so I round up to 1hr 29 etc etc. 191 minutes is app what the
    length of the project is.

    >On a DL disc you have 8.5GB which is 68,000,000 kbit
    >Divide the latter by the former to get a desired average bitrate (audio +
    >video) of 5780 kbit/s


    The Dual layer DVD disc does say 8.5GB but only 7.95GB of that appears
    to show up as being usable. Same with the single layer its stated as
    capacity 4.7GB but only 4.38 shows as being usable within NVE. Maybe
    this is something to do with the 1000 or 1024kb in an mb issue and so
    on?

    >On a SL disc you have 4.7GB which is 37,600,000 kbit
    >yielding a desired average bitrate (audio + video) of 3190 kbit/s


    Well, it shows as only 4.38 as being usable for me in NVE, so I guess
    you can't use a full 4.7?

    >Use AC3 at 225kbit to give average video bitrates of 5556 and 2966 kbit/s
    >respectively


    I will have to see if there is an option for this and see if it does
    that.

    >Considering your source media is stills and DV, I reckon that creating the
    >VIDEO_TS folder for DL disc and then running it through recode for SL discs
    >will get rid of your stutter problem and still yield acceptable quality.


    The stutter problem was just on my system it is not a problem with the
    video files just the performance of my computer.

    >Note that crossfades on stills are particularly demanding on bandwidth, so
    >if your slideshow has them, consider replacing them with a different
    >transition.


    Yeah, I have used crossfades. I didn't really like any of the other
    transitions, the crossfade was the best one for this project.

    >As yet, I haven't seen anything to convince me that it's bad media. I'm not
    >saying that's not the problem, just that it could be a player issue. If it
    >is bad media, I _do_ think it's likely to be a whole batch (the only time
    >I've had problems it's been with every disc in a tub. Started a new tub
    >after a dozen or so failures - problem went away). Have you tried Jerry's
    >suggestion of different media?


    I am about to try that now. I have some Verbatim DL DVD-R.
    Unfortunately it doesn't look like you can get these with a printable
    surface, you can only get the DL DVD+R as printable. So I will have to
    also get some DL +R verbatims to see if the problem was the media I
    was using, then if it was I should still be able to use printable DL
    +R verbatims, otherwise I am going to have to do it on a branded
    DL -R disc :(

    John
    John, Jan 4, 2008
    #16
  17. John

    G Hardy Guest

    > Yes they are definitely slideshows made up from still images not video
    > files.


    I maybe didn't explain myself properly - I was talking about the result, not
    the ingredients. A "slideshow" is a broad term covering what you're
    watching, but on a DVD it has three potential meanings. The first two (still
    show and slide show) are where the stills are encoded as individual frames
    on to the DVD and the player "manages" the image playback. The third is
    where the authoring software encodes the stills as a video, losing some of
    the navigational features of a true slideshow but gaining a much nicer look.
    Think of menus: A still menu uses a negligible amount of space on the DVD
    but can stay onscreen indefinitely. A motion menu has to (eventually) loop
    because it is a video asset that takes up space on the disc.

    The mention of crossfades later in your post means your slideshows are
    actually videos, just like the rest of your media assets, and should be
    treated as such (just like motion menus and title sequences).


    > I do have crossfades between the different photos in the slideshows.
    > It does seem to be the background music that takes up most of the
    > space on the slideshows.


    Not sure about that one. If you're crossfading, that suggests video, which
    would take up more room than the audio. If it really is taking up less room
    than the audio, perhaps you're using PCM audio, which could make DVD
    playback choppy and unnecessarily use up a whole chunk of space over its
    much slimmer AC3 alternative.


    > I might have to have a look into this. I thought that Nero Recode just
    > converted to MP4 format which I wouldn't really want to do because the
    > quality isn't as good, but if it can just recode the original files
    > and do a better job of that than NVE then I might give it a shot.
    >
    > If it makes the end product better quality on a single layer disc I'll
    > give it a go and see if its good enough. I do think though that I will
    > probably have to get this onto a dual layer disc, or over two single
    > layer ones.


    MPEG-4 will give better quality than MPEG-2 at the same bitrate, but that's
    a moot point. What I'm suggesting is to use the first option: "Recode an
    entire DVD to DVD". This will definitely result in a quality loss. Whether
    it's noticeable is another matter. When it's finished analysing the disc, if
    it gives you a %quality less than about 65, the loss will be noticeable.


    > I had already done the rounding up/down to the nearest minute


    Always round up when there's an upper limit on what you're encoding, such as
    the amount of space on a DVD or the maximum filesize for YouTube etc.


    > The Dual layer DVD disc does say 8.5GB but only 7.95GB of that appears
    > to show up as being usable. Same with the single layer its stated as
    > capacity 4.7GB but only 4.38 shows as being usable within NVE. Maybe
    > this is something to do with the 1000 or 1024kb in an mb issue and so
    > on?


    That's exactly the reason. It's a bit stupid of Nero to show capacity in
    binary powers (1024) while it refers to bitrate in decimal powers (1000). In
    the examples I gave earlier in the thread, everything is in decimal powers.


    > Well, it shows as only 4.38 as being usable for me in NVE, so I guess
    > you can't use a full 4.7?


    See above


    > The stutter problem was just on my system it is not a problem with the
    > video files just the performance of my computer.


    Therein lies another possible cause of your playback problems. If your
    computer isn't quick enough to keep up with MPEG playback, can it keep up
    with the DVD writer? Do the two buffer gauges stay fairly stable at above
    80% during writing?


    >>Note that crossfades on stills are particularly demanding on bandwidth, so
    >>if your slideshow has them, consider replacing them with a different
    >>transition.

    >
    > Yeah, I have used crossfades. I didn't really like any of the other
    > transitions, the crossfade was the best one for this project.


    Agreed they are the best transition - but they are also a curse. Each frame
    is, in its entirety, subtly different from the frames either side. MPEG
    compression gets most of its saving from simply identifying which blocks of
    the picture have moved, and identifying their new position. Where there are
    new parts of the picture, there is less compression. Consider, for example,
    a left-right pan shot on a tripod. As the camera moves to the right, new
    bits of the picture appear on the right side of the screen and the old bits
    drop off the left side.The bits in the middle just move to the left. MPEG
    works (mostly) by only storing the new picture information on the right. The
    bit from the middle is retrieved from an earlier frame, just with a new
    position.

    Crossfades bugger all that up because there are no common chunks of the
    picture between frames. A low bitrate crossfade looks awful. A vbr encode at
    the same bitrate will look better, but quality elsewhere will be undermined
    in favour of the crossfade.
    G Hardy, Jan 4, 2008
    #17
  18. John

    :Jerry: Guest

    "John" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >

    <snip what Mr Hardy has already covered>
    >
    > I am about to try that now. I have some Verbatim DL DVD-R.

    <snip>

    You need to think more about the dye used and not the brand on the
    label.
    :Jerry:, Jan 4, 2008
    #18
  19. On 1/03/2008, John posted this:

    (I snipped a bit to answer just the one remark)

    >> On a SL disc you have 4.7GB which is 37,600,000 kbit
    >> yielding a desired average bitrate (audio + video) of 3190 kbit/s

    >
    > Well, it shows as only 4.38 as being usable for me in NVE, so I guess
    > you can't use a full 4.7?

    ....
    > John


    This is the old 1K = 1000 vs 1K = 1024 thing (and the analogous numbers
    for Mega and Giga), mentioned many times on a number of newsgroups in
    video and elsewhere.

    Hard drive manufacturers use the "ten to the nth" versions of K, M, and
    G (and now T), perhaps just to make their drives look bigger.

    RAM makers and others use the "two to the nth" versions of K, M, and G
    (and now T) because it matches the binary addressing schemes of memory
    and other computer-related uses.

    So, K = ten cubed for drive makers and K = two to the tenth for RAM
    makers, and so forth.

    Do the calculation for yourself and you'll see that 4.38 times 2**30 is
    approximately 4.7 times 10**9 ("**" is the symbol for exponentiation -
    raising to a power - in a number of computer languages).

    --
    Gene E. Bloch (Gino) letters617blochg3251
    (replace the numbers by "at" and "dotcom")
    Gene E. Bloch, Jan 7, 2008
    #19
  20. John

    John Guest

    On Fri, 04 Jan 2008 10:20:10 GMT, "G Hardy"
    <> wrote:

    >> Yes they are definitely slideshows made up from still images not video
    >> files.

    >
    >I maybe didn't explain myself properly - I was talking about the result, not
    >the ingredients. A "slideshow" is a broad term covering what you're
    >watching, but on a DVD it has three potential meanings. The first two (still
    >show and slide show) are where the stills are encoded as individual frames
    >on to the DVD and the player "manages" the image playback. The third is
    >where the authoring software encodes the stills as a video, losing some of
    >the navigational features of a true slideshow but gaining a much nicer look.
    >Think of menus: A still menu uses a negligible amount of space on the DVD
    >but can stay onscreen indefinitely. A motion menu has to (eventually) loop
    >because it is a video asset that takes up space on the disc.
    >
    >The mention of crossfades later in your post means your slideshows are
    >actually videos, just like the rest of your media assets, and should be
    >treated as such (just like motion menus and title sequences).
    >
    >
    >> I do have crossfades between the different photos in the slideshows.
    >> It does seem to be the background music that takes up most of the
    >> space on the slideshows.

    >
    >Not sure about that one. If you're crossfading, that suggests video, which
    >would take up more room than the audio. If it really is taking up less room
    >than the audio, perhaps you're using PCM audio, which could make DVD
    >playback choppy and unnecessarily use up a whole chunk of space over its
    >much slimmer AC3 alternative.
    >
    >
    >> I might have to have a look into this. I thought that Nero Recode just
    >> converted to MP4 format which I wouldn't really want to do because the
    >> quality isn't as good, but if it can just recode the original files
    >> and do a better job of that than NVE then I might give it a shot.
    >>
    >> If it makes the end product better quality on a single layer disc I'll
    >> give it a go and see if its good enough. I do think though that I will
    >> probably have to get this onto a dual layer disc, or over two single
    >> layer ones.

    >
    >MPEG-4 will give better quality than MPEG-2 at the same bitrate, but that's
    >a moot point. What I'm suggesting is to use the first option: "Recode an
    >entire DVD to DVD". This will definitely result in a quality loss. Whether
    >it's noticeable is another matter. When it's finished analysing the disc, if
    >it gives you a %quality less than about 65, the loss will be noticeable.
    >
    >
    >> I had already done the rounding up/down to the nearest minute

    >
    >Always round up when there's an upper limit on what you're encoding, such as
    >the amount of space on a DVD or the maximum filesize for YouTube etc.
    >
    >
    >> The Dual layer DVD disc does say 8.5GB but only 7.95GB of that appears
    >> to show up as being usable. Same with the single layer its stated as
    >> capacity 4.7GB but only 4.38 shows as being usable within NVE. Maybe
    >> this is something to do with the 1000 or 1024kb in an mb issue and so
    >> on?

    >
    >That's exactly the reason. It's a bit stupid of Nero to show capacity in
    >binary powers (1024) while it refers to bitrate in decimal powers (1000). In
    >the examples I gave earlier in the thread, everything is in decimal powers.
    >
    >
    >> Well, it shows as only 4.38 as being usable for me in NVE, so I guess
    >> you can't use a full 4.7?

    >
    >See above
    >
    >
    >> The stutter problem was just on my system it is not a problem with the
    >> video files just the performance of my computer.

    >
    >Therein lies another possible cause of your playback problems. If your
    >computer isn't quick enough to keep up with MPEG playback, can it keep up
    >with the DVD writer? Do the two buffer gauges stay fairly stable at above
    >80% during writing?
    >
    >
    >>>Note that crossfades on stills are particularly demanding on bandwidth, so
    >>>if your slideshow has them, consider replacing them with a different
    >>>transition.

    >>
    >> Yeah, I have used crossfades. I didn't really like any of the other
    >> transitions, the crossfade was the best one for this project.

    >
    >Agreed they are the best transition - but they are also a curse. Each frame
    >is, in its entirety, subtly different from the frames either side. MPEG
    >compression gets most of its saving from simply identifying which blocks of
    >the picture have moved, and identifying their new position. Where there are
    >new parts of the picture, there is less compression. Consider, for example,
    >a left-right pan shot on a tripod. As the camera moves to the right, new
    >bits of the picture appear on the right side of the screen and the old bits
    >drop off the left side.The bits in the middle just move to the left. MPEG
    >works (mostly) by only storing the new picture information on the right. The
    >bit from the middle is retrieved from an earlier frame, just with a new
    >position.
    >
    >Crossfades bugger all that up because there are no common chunks of the
    >picture between frames. A low bitrate crossfade looks awful. A vbr encode at
    >the same bitrate will look better, but quality elsewhere will be undermined
    >in favour of the crossfade.


    Update....

    I managed to bump up the bit rate a little to 5500 and still get it to
    fit on dual layer. I re-encoded the files to Hard Drive and burned to
    a Verbatim DVD-R DL disc.

    It plays back absolutely fine on my PC in the drive that made it
    (Pioneer DVR-109), using both Windows Media Player and Nero Showtime.
    However, it doesn't play back on another PC I have in that DVD drive,
    and also on stand alone player attached to TV it gets to a certain
    point in the main movie on the dvd and it stops working. The DVD
    player makes a load of crazy spinning noises and doesn't seem to
    recognise the disc anymore. If I try and select a title after the bad
    bit it doesn't let me. It wont read the disc after a certain point.

    It looks like if I want this to be readable in other drives then I'm
    afraid dual media is a no go whether your drive supports it or not.
    I'll have to fit it on a single layer disc and suffer the quality loss
    or try and span it over 2 single layer DVD discs and all the problems
    that will entail trying to split that.

    John
    John, Jan 8, 2008
    #20
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