Assign and then convert to Adobe RGB (1998), or skip assignment.

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Robert Montgomery, Feb 7, 2012.

  1. Robert Montgomery <> writes:

    > Tell that to Vance. He keeps on writing in this thread that I don't
    > benefit from the wider gamut of Adobe RGB 1998 compared to
    > sRGBIEC61966-2.1.
    >
    > He insists that Adobe RGB is TOO WIDE for my Epson 7600 and 2400
    > printers, while you claim that it's NOT WIDE ENOUGH! Who's right?


    Both of you.

    sRGB is really not bad for your final output. Most labs I've sent
    prints to require you put your files into that profile before uploading
    them anyway (and I mean professional labs like WHCC).

    However, what's good enough for your final output is NOT good enough for
    the original or for your working space.

    A color print actually has maybe 5 stops of range, the negative 10 or
    more. Which parts of the negative ended up in the print was what custom
    printing was all about :).

    Similarly, 8-bit output is good enough for nearly everything (few
    printer drivers, maybe none, actually handle 16-bit; you need to go to
    commercial RIPs for that). But you need 16-bit (per channel) originals
    so that, in places you expand the range, you don't end up with
    posterization (for example).

    > Also, I gave up on 16-bit Pro Photo profiles because they disable
    > Photoshop's filters, and some of those filters are critical for my
    > image editing work.


    I work in ProPhoto 16-bit. You have an older version of Photoshop.
    that's one of the reasons I updated a few releases back.
    --
    David Dyer-Bennet, ; http://dd-b.net/
    Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/
    Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/
    Dragaera: http://dragaera.info
     
    David Dyer-Bennet, Feb 20, 2012
    #21
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  2. Robert Montgomery <> wrote:
    > On Feb 7, 6:44 pm, Wolfgang Weisselberg <>
    >> RobertMontgomery<> wrote:


    >> > How can I get Photoshop to save my digital files as Adobe RGB 1998
    >> > files?


    >> Why would you want that?


    > To get a wider gamut in my prints than is provided by sRGBIEC61966-2.1
    > files. (That's the difference between the two profiles.)


    Is your printer capable of actually using the additional
    range of aRGB? Does it cover it? Did you check that with a
    profile of the printer, ink and paper?

    > How? I don't see anything in the cameras' manuals or in the camera's
    > user interface to do that. The terms "color profile", "profile, "sRGB"
    > and "Adobe" and "1998" don't appear anywhere in the camera manuals of
    > either the Canon Powershot 1200 or the Canon Powershot SX 20 IS.


    Ah, then Canon has chosen to keep that capability away from it's
    smaller cameras.


    >> > In Photoshop, Edit > Settings > is set to "Adobe RGB 1998
    >> > (Perceptual)" and Working Spaces is set to "Adobe RGB (1998).


    >> Why would you use such a small working space?  Using a larger
    >> (16bit) working space keeps your choices larger.


    > Tell that to Vance. He keeps on writing in this thread that I don't
    > benefit from the wider gamut of Adobe RGB 1998 compared to
    > sRGBIEC61966-2.1.


    As a working space -- the time from starting with your JPEGs or
    RAWs to finally writing your result, in sRGB or aRGB) you want
    Pro Photo (or lacking that, at least Wide Gamut). That
    allows you to temporarily be outside of the small aRGB space
    and jump back into it[1]. It also allows you to not have
    quantisation errors[2].


    > He insists that Adobe RGB is TOO WIDE for my Epson 7600 and 2400
    > printers, while you claim that it's NOT WIDE ENOUGH! Who's right?


    Let's look ... for the *intermediate workspace*, I am right.
    For the *output profile* ... let's see ...

    I checked the 7600's profile for lustre paper and manufacturer's
    ink against sRGB and aRGB:

    $ iccgamut -v -w -d 7 -k -c pp 9600 PrmLuster PLU2 Std v3.icc
    $ iccgamut -v -w -d 7 -k -c pp sRGB.icc
    $ iccgamut -v -w -d 7 -k -c pp Adobe.icc
    $ viewgam -cn -t0 -w -k 9600\ PrmLuster\ PLU2\ Std\ v3.gam \
    -cr -t0.1 -s -k sRGB.gam \
    -cg -t0.5 -s -k Adobe.gam \
    9600.wrl
    $ lookat 9600.wrl

    [iccgamut and viewgam are part of the Argyll CMS, lookat is
    just a VRML viewer]

    - Yellow is outside aRGB
    - Blue-ish and green-ish extend well outside aRGB in the darker
    colours, but aRGB still has a stronger saturated green.
    - Same for red-ish.
    - The printer cannot cover the light colours that sRGB can
    describe.


    => the printer cannot print all colours that sRGB can describe
    => The printer can print many colours (especially the darker
    saturated ones) that not even aRGB can describe.

    Use aRGB or even a larger colourspace.

    > Also, I gave up on 16-bit Pro Photo profiles because they disable
    > Photoshop's filters, and some of those filters are critical for my
    > image editing work.


    Then you must live with quantisation errors and out of
    profile problems.


    >> > I don't know if I should assign the Adobe RGB 1998 profile first and
    >> > then convert to Adobe RGB 1998, or skip the assignment and go directly
    >> > to conversion to Adobe RGB (1998).


    >> Try it out.


    > I've tried it out probably on hundreds or thousands of files over the
    > years.


    And? What were the results?


    > When I do assign Adobe RGB (1998) profile to my images, I of course
    > saturate them in Photoshop to take advantage of Adobe RGB's wider
    > gamut.


    Did you ever try the saturation rendering intent?
    That could be just what you want ...

    -Wolfgang


    [1] Think of a price range of <$1000 which you're willing to
    spend on a new camera. The model you want is $1100, and
    the battery grip you need is another $100.
    However, there's a rebate of $50 and you can sell your
    old body for $200.

    If you only consider prices <$1000 and act like a
    computer (or photoshop) the following ensues:
    $1100 >= $1000 ==> record the maximum of $999.99
    + $100 = 1099.99 >= $1000 ==> record the maximum of
    $999.99
    - $50 rebate = $949.99
    - $200 = $749.99

    If you consider prices to $100,000,000, the following
    ensues:
    $1100 => store as $1100 (even though >= $1000)
    + $100 = $1200 => store as $1200 (even though >= $1000)
    - $50 = $1150 => store as $1150 (even though >= $1000)
    - $200 = $950 => store as $950

    The price limit is the border of your working space
    profile.

    [2] sRGB and aRGB have only 8 bit per channel, that is 256
    different values.
    16 bit has 256 times as much different values, so even with
    a much larger work space you have smaller steps in between.

    Consider rounding to full $100:
    $49.95 => round to $0
    + $49.95 = $49.95 => round to $0
    + $49.95 = $49.95 => round to $0
    + $49.95 = $49.95 => round to $0
    + $49.95 = $49.95 => round to $0

    Consider rounding to full $10:
    $49.95 => round to $50
    + $49.95 = $99.95 => round to $100
    + $49.95 = $149.95 => round to $150
    + $49.95 = $199.95 => round to $200
    + $49.95 = $249.95 => round to $250

    Consider calculating to the last cent:
    $49.95 => round to $49.95
    + $49.95 = $99.90 => round to $99.90
    + $49.95 = $149.85 => round to $149.85
    + $49.95 = $199.80 => round to $199.80
    + $49.95 = $249.75 => round to $249.75

    Each operation that changes the hue or brightness or lightness
    (or red, green or blue amount) of the pixels needs to round,
    and if you round to full $100 (8bit, like aRGB or sRGB) you
    get bad errors, if you round to the last cent (more like 16
    bit) you get much smaller errors. Note, $0.0049 would still
    be cut away in rounding ...
     
    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Feb 22, 2012
    #22
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  3. Robert Lord <> wrote:
    > On Feb 7, 8:02 pm, Vance <> wrote:


    >> Addendum:  You have Photoshop setup to preserve the 'embedded
    >> color space', so there is your answer to where the color space
    >> was assigned - your camera.


    > I just called Canon and asked a technical service worker, who told me
    > that all of the digital Canon cameras produce files that are untagged,
    > which contradicts your statement that the cameras are tagging my files
    > with the sRGBIEC61966-2.1 colour profiles.


    First, that's not exactly true (my big Canon can do aRGB and
    of course tags that as aRGB), secondly, if no colour space is
    given, sRGB it is.

    > Adobe's Web site says, "For a mixed RGB and CMYK print
    > workflow...choose the North America Prepress 2 setting. This option
    > sets the RGB working space to Adobe RGB (1998) and the CMYK working
    > space to U.S. Web Coasted (SWOP) v2.


    You don't have a CMYK workflow. You feed sRGB or aRGB to
    your printer and thus have a workflow completely in RGB.

    > Also, Photoshop has a section at View > Proof Setup > Adobe RGB. You
    > wrote, "You probably can't see the Adobe RGB color space on your
    > monitor". Why would that proof preview for Adobe RGB be available in
    > Photoshop if it were useless?


    Because some expensive monitors can. Almost. :)

    -Wolfgang
     
    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Feb 22, 2012
    #23
  4. Robert Montgomery

    J. Clarke Guest

    In article <>, says...
    >
    > Robert Montgomery <> writes:
    >
    > > Tell that to Vance. He keeps on writing in this thread that I don't
    > > benefit from the wider gamut of Adobe RGB 1998 compared to
    > > sRGBIEC61966-2.1.
    > >
    > > He insists that Adobe RGB is TOO WIDE for my Epson 7600 and 2400
    > > printers, while you claim that it's NOT WIDE ENOUGH! Who's right?

    >
    > Both of you.
    >
    > sRGB is really not bad for your final output. Most labs I've sent
    > prints to require you put your files into that profile before uploading
    > them anyway (and I mean professional labs like WHCC).
    >
    > However, what's good enough for your final output is NOT good enough for
    > the original or for your working space.
    >
    > A color print actually has maybe 5 stops of range, the negative 10 or
    > more. Which parts of the negative ended up in the print was what custom
    > printing was all about :).
    >
    > Similarly, 8-bit output is good enough for nearly everything (few
    > printer drivers, maybe none, actually handle 16-bit; you need to go to
    > commercial RIPs for that). But you need 16-bit (per channel) originals
    > so that, in places you expand the range, you don't end up with
    > posterization (for example).


    Just an aside, but this discussion prompted me to search for something I
    remembered from long ago. In the January, 1967 issue of Analog Science
    Fiction (then published by Conde-Nast) there was an editorial about the
    cover art and how it had to be compromised because the printing
    processes did not allow enough dynamic range to show the image that the
    editor, the author, and the artist all had in their minds to accompany
    the lead story in that issue. Can't find the editorial online but I
    suspect that it's still an interesting read.
     
    J. Clarke, Feb 25, 2012
    #24
  5. On Feb 20, 10:05 am, David Dyer-Bennet <> wrote:
    > RobertMontgomery<> writes:
    > > Tell that to Vance.  He keeps on writing in this thread that I don't
    > > benefit from the wider gamut of Adobe RGB 1998 compared to
    > > sRGBIEC61966-2.1.

    >
    > > He insists that Adobe RGB is TOO WIDE for my Epson 7600 and 2400
    > > printers, while you claim that it's NOT WIDE ENOUGH!  Who's right?

    >
    > Both of you.
    >
    > sRGB is really not bad for your final output.  Most labs I've sent
    > prints to require you put your files into that profile before uploading
    > them anyway (and I mean professional labs like WHCC).
    >
    > However, what's good enough for your final output is NOT good enough for
    > the original or for your working space.
    >
    > A color print actually has maybe 5 stops of range, the negative 10 or
    > more.  Which parts of the negative ended up in the print was what custom
    > printing was all about :).
    >
    > Similarly, 8-bit output is good enough for nearly everything (few
    > printer drivers, maybe none, actually handle 16-bit; you need to go to
    > commercial RIPs for that).  But you need 16-bit (per channel) originals
    > so that, in places  you expand the range, you don't end up with
    > posterization (for example).
    >
    > > Also, I gave up on 16-bit Pro Photo profiles because they disable
    > > Photoshop's filters, and some of those filters are critical for my
    > > image editing work.

    >
    > I work in ProPhoto 16-bit.  You have an older version of Photoshop.
    > that's one of the reasons I updated a few releases back.


    Huh? CS5.6 is an 'older version of Photoshop'? I have Photoshop CS5.5
    – the latest version. See here for proof that CS5 _is_ the latest
    version:: http://www.adobe.com/products/photoshop.html

    Robert
     
    Robert Montgomery, Mar 21, 2012
    #25
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