Are MS Certifications worth it?

Discussion in 'MCSD' started by VM, Jul 21, 2003.

  1. VM

    VM Guest

    Since I'm trying to become an independent software consultant, do Microsoft
    certifications help attract clients? And are they worth it?
    Thanks,
    VM
     
    VM, Jul 21, 2003
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. I've only had my MCAD and MCSD certifications for a few weeks, so maybe my
    experience is suspect, but having those certifications on my resume didn't
    seem to attract any extra attention from recruiters or prospective
    employers. (One interviewer snickered about my certification, suggesting
    that it didn't mean anything but that he wouldn't hold it against me.)

    I have seen a few job postings that required MCSDs, but they are pretty
    rare. There are a few employers out there that like to see Microsoft logos,
    but most employers put a much larger priority on commercial experience and
    very little on certifications.

    -- Kris Johnson


    "VM" <None> wrote in message news:uVoYQ$...
    > Since I'm trying to become an independent software consultant, do

    Microsoft
    > certifications help attract clients? And are they worth it?
    > Thanks,
    > VM
    >
    >
     
    Kristopher Johnson, Jul 21, 2003
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. VM

    Guy Cox Guest

    It should be against the law for a developer to accept payment for .Net
    development without holding at least an MCAD.. I've just run into too much
    junk code already. It's like putting a visually impared driver in a Formula
    One racing car and have them try to drive through Manhattan.

    1) One developer I saw created and opened a DB connection at form load, and
    closed the connection at the same time he closed the form. - This tosses all
    the connection management work MSFT has done right out the window. Then the
    manager and users blames the platform or the framework when in reality it
    was an ignorant developer.

    2) Same developer stored an entire class instance into the viewstate of a
    ASPX page... probably takes twice as long to decrypt/decode from the
    viewstate as it would to create the object from scratch... --- and what's
    the browser supposed to so with those 20K or so worth of bits that get sent
    back to the browser in the hidden field where the viewstate lives.

    Just my $.02

    Guy

    "VM" <None> wrote in message news:uVoYQ$...
    > Since I'm trying to become an independent software consultant, do

    Microsoft
    > certifications help attract clients? And are they worth it?
    > Thanks,
    > VM
    >
    >
     
    Guy Cox, Jul 21, 2003
    #3
  4. VM

    John S Guest

    Definitely not. Just look at all those so could ms partners that are going
    down to pan.

    "VM" <None> wrote in message news:uVoYQ$...
    > Since I'm trying to become an independent software consultant, do

    Microsoft
    > certifications help attract clients? And are they worth it?
    > Thanks,
    > VM
    >
    >
     
    John S, Jul 21, 2003
    #4
  5. Even if that very same developer did not obtain an MCAD untill now, he can,
    anytime he likes; as he has the two sufficient qualities for getting an MCAD
    1) can read English, (but not necessarily understand)
    2) can open, close connections; knows that forms load, etc.
    Plus he even uses a viewstate, so he can get some extra points.
    What makes you think that an MCAD will do any better?

    "Guy Cox" <gcoxjr-$nospam$> wrote in message
    news:...
    > It should be against the law for a developer to accept payment for .Net
    > development without holding at least an MCAD.. I've just run into too much
    > junk code already. It's like putting a visually impared driver in a

    Formula
    > One racing car and have them try to drive through Manhattan.
    >
    > 1) One developer I saw created and opened a DB connection at form load,

    and
    > closed the connection at the same time he closed the form. - This tosses

    all
    > the connection management work MSFT has done right out the window. Then

    the
    > manager and users blames the platform or the framework when in reality it
    > was an ignorant developer.
    >
    > 2) Same developer stored an entire class instance into the viewstate of a
    > ASPX page... probably takes twice as long to decrypt/decode from the
    > viewstate as it would to create the object from scratch... --- and what's
    > the browser supposed to so with those 20K or so worth of bits that get

    sent
    > back to the browser in the hidden field where the viewstate lives.
    >
    > Just my $.02
    >
    > Guy
    >
    > "VM" <None> wrote in message news:uVoYQ$...
    > > Since I'm trying to become an independent software consultant, do

    > Microsoft
    > > certifications help attract clients? And are they worth it?
    > > Thanks,
    > > VM
    > >
    > >

    >
    >
     
    Ertugrul Uysal, Jul 21, 2003
    #5
  6. VM

    emg Guest

    I had an MCSD back in 2000 and it had no value in the job market so I quit
    taking the exams for a while. I'm currently working thru the dotnet exams
    primarily because it's a good way to make sure you learn something in a
    broad range of topics. I do it on the cheap - - self study and a few
    discounted books. My biggest expense is the transcender which I feel helps
    more than the books.

    Most hiring managers hold little esteem for certifications by HR people
    might screen out your resume if they've gotten 10 others that DO have certs
    on them.

    If you're truly working as an independent, you will probably be selling to
    business managers who know nothing at all about certs and don't care that
    much if the system is written in C# or java or whatever. They just care
    about the overall solution, how much it costs and when you can have it done.


    "VM" <None> wrote in message news:uVoYQ$...
    > Since I'm trying to become an independent software consultant, do

    Microsoft
    > certifications help attract clients? And are they worth it?
    > Thanks,
    > VM
    >
    >
     
    emg, Jul 21, 2003
    #6
  7. VM

    Jamie Guest

    I've seen people write code like too Guy. In the project i am
    currently working, someone wrote a method in C# to do some string
    manipulation in 20 lines that could be replaced in 1 line.....its all
    about experience.

    it brings up the question of who is the bigger idiot.....

    a) the crappy developer who doesnt have a clue and bumbles along quite
    happy to be earning his pay check
    b) the technical lead who doesnt notice/care/do anything about it
    c) the incompetent management, who think that because this guys CV has
    lots of interesting stuff on it and is looking for 5K less than "Joe
    CodeGuru" is the man to hire
    d) incompetent personnel people who think that the Web Programmer is
    the perfect person to go to a DBA role (I've seen it happen!!)
    e) The customer for buying a solution from a company like that!

    I know who is going to be most upset when deadlines don't get met!





    "Guy Cox" <gcoxjr-$nospam$> wrote in message news:<>...
    > It should be against the law for a developer to accept payment for .Net
    > development without holding at least an MCAD.. I've just run into too much
    > junk code already. It's like putting a visually impared driver in a Formula
    > One racing car and have them try to drive through Manhattan.
    >
    > 1) One developer I saw created and opened a DB connection at form load, and
    > closed the connection at the same time he closed the form. - This tosses all
    > the connection management work MSFT has done right out the window. Then the
    > manager and users blames the platform or the framework when in reality it
    > was an ignorant developer.
    >
    > 2) Same developer stored an entire class instance into the viewstate of a
    > ASPX page... probably takes twice as long to decrypt/decode from the
    > viewstate as it would to create the object from scratch... --- and what's
    > the browser supposed to so with those 20K or so worth of bits that get sent
    > back to the browser in the hidden field where the viewstate lives.
    >
    > Just my $.02
    >
    > Guy
    >
    > "VM" <None> wrote in message news:uVoYQ$...
    > > Since I'm trying to become an independent software consultant, do

    > Microsoft
    > > certifications help attract clients? And are they worth it?
    > > Thanks,
    > > VM
    > >
    > >
     
    Jamie, Jul 21, 2003
    #7
  8. VM

    Danut Guest

    It is even worse when these guys act as designers/architects! Of course they
    thing they are perfect and they know everything. They keep argue about how
    wonderful is to keep a connection open forever.

    The worst part is that the last time they opened a book was the last
    millemium.

    Danut

    "Guy Cox" <gcoxjr-$nospam$> wrote in message
    news:...
    > It should be against the law for a developer to accept payment for .Net
    > development without holding at least an MCAD.. I've just run into too much
    > junk code already. It's like putting a visually impared driver in a

    Formula
    > One racing car and have them try to drive through Manhattan.
    >
    > 1) One developer I saw created and opened a DB connection at form load,

    and
    > closed the connection at the same time he closed the form. - This tosses

    all
    > the connection management work MSFT has done right out the window. Then

    the
    > manager and users blames the platform or the framework when in reality it
    > was an ignorant developer.
    >
    > 2) Same developer stored an entire class instance into the viewstate of a
    > ASPX page... probably takes twice as long to decrypt/decode from the
    > viewstate as it would to create the object from scratch... --- and what's
    > the browser supposed to so with those 20K or so worth of bits that get

    sent
    > back to the browser in the hidden field where the viewstate lives.
    >
    > Just my $.02
    >
    > Guy
    >
    > "VM" <None> wrote in message news:uVoYQ$...
    > > Since I'm trying to become an independent software consultant, do

    > Microsoft
    > > certifications help attract clients? And are they worth it?
    > > Thanks,
    > > VM
    > >
    > >

    >
    >
     
    Danut, Jul 21, 2003
    #8
  9. VM

    John S Guest

    > it brings up the question of who is the bigger idiot.....

    > a) the crappy developer who doesnt have a clue and bumbles along quite
    > happy to be earning his pay check
    > b) the technical lead who doesnt notice/care/do anything about it
    > c) the incompetent management, who think that because this guys CV has
    > lots of interesting stuff on it and is looking for 5K less than "Joe
    > CodeGuru" is the man to hire
    > d) incompetent personnel people who think that the Web Programmer is
    > the perfect person to go to a DBA role (I've seen it happen!!)
    > e) The customer for buying a solution from a company like that!


    All of them.
    The problem is there are too many idiots out there and too many bigger
    idiots that employ them. Lets hope the 'cull' in worthless idiots continues.

    "Jamie" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > I've seen people write code like too Guy. In the project i am
    > currently working, someone wrote a method in C# to do some string
    > manipulation in 20 lines that could be replaced in 1 line.....its all
    > about experience.
    >
    > it brings up the question of who is the bigger idiot.....
    >
    > a) the crappy developer who doesnt have a clue and bumbles along quite
    > happy to be earning his pay check
    > b) the technical lead who doesnt notice/care/do anything about it
    > c) the incompetent management, who think that because this guys CV has
    > lots of interesting stuff on it and is looking for 5K less than "Joe
    > CodeGuru" is the man to hire
    > d) incompetent personnel people who think that the Web Programmer is
    > the perfect person to go to a DBA role (I've seen it happen!!)
    > e) The customer for buying a solution from a company like that!
    >
    > I know who is going to be most upset when deadlines don't get met!
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > "Guy Cox" <gcoxjr-$nospam$> wrote in message

    news:<>...
    > > It should be against the law for a developer to accept payment for .Net
    > > development without holding at least an MCAD.. I've just run into too

    much
    > > junk code already. It's like putting a visually impared driver in a

    Formula
    > > One racing car and have them try to drive through Manhattan.
    > >
    > > 1) One developer I saw created and opened a DB connection at form load,

    and
    > > closed the connection at the same time he closed the form. - This tosses

    all
    > > the connection management work MSFT has done right out the window. Then

    the
    > > manager and users blames the platform or the framework when in reality

    it
    > > was an ignorant developer.
    > >
    > > 2) Same developer stored an entire class instance into the viewstate of

    a
    > > ASPX page... probably takes twice as long to decrypt/decode from the
    > > viewstate as it would to create the object from scratch... --- and

    what's
    > > the browser supposed to so with those 20K or so worth of bits that get

    sent
    > > back to the browser in the hidden field where the viewstate lives.
    > >
    > > Just my $.02
    > >
    > > Guy
    > >
    > > "VM" <None> wrote in message

    news:uVoYQ$...
    > > > Since I'm trying to become an independent software consultant, do

    > > Microsoft
    > > > certifications help attract clients? And are they worth it?
    > > > Thanks,
    > > > VM
    > > >
    > > >
     
    John S, Jul 21, 2003
    #9
  10. VM

    Avi Guest

    Well said mave
    >-----Original Message-----
    >It's really the mix that does the job.
    >
    >What you need is professional experience in writing good
    >software. All certifications can do is put the dots on
    >the "i".
    >Anybody can pass the exams when they read the books cover
    >to cover and take a couple of test-exams. Can they write
    >good software... sorry but no.
    >
    >So when you've got an interesting resume the certificates
    >might pull you through. Just putting "hey, i am an MCSD-
    >certified programmer" won't.
    >
    >>-----Original Message-----
    >>Since I'm trying to become an independent software

    >consultant, do Microsoft
    >>certifications help attract clients? And are they worth

    >it?
    >>Thanks,
    >>VM
    >>
    >>
    >>.
    >>

    >.
    >
     
    Avi, Jul 22, 2003
    #10
  11. VM

    Michael Guest

    Microsoft Certified Partners (not sure if all levels) require a certain
    number of MCSDs working for them, so that might be those companies looking
    for MCSDs.

    I agree with Kristopher. On the other hand, the original poster asked the
    question related to independent consultants. In that case, I would guess
    MCSD/MCSD.NET might have more value than compared to an employee (the other
    type :)). MCAD might not be that useful to an independent consultant (i.e.
    not enough).

    In the end, it is the learning journey to MCAD/MCSD that is the fun part.
    Otherwise, Microsoft certifications are virtually worthless. Maybe Microsoft
    should make the exams twice as hard, and then make them free; just charge it
    to marketting Microsoft.

    "Kristopher Johnson" <> wrote in message
    news:X0GSa.95459$GL4.26848@rwcrnsc53...
    > I've only had my MCAD and MCSD certifications for a few weeks, so maybe my
    > experience is suspect, but having those certifications on my resume didn't
    > seem to attract any extra attention from recruiters or prospective
    > employers. (One interviewer snickered about my certification, suggesting
    > that it didn't mean anything but that he wouldn't hold it against me.)
    >
    > I have seen a few job postings that required MCSDs, but they are pretty
    > rare. There are a few employers out there that like to see Microsoft

    logos,
    > but most employers put a much larger priority on commercial experience and
    > very little on certifications.
    >
    > -- Kris Johnson
    >
    >
    > "VM" <None> wrote in message news:uVoYQ$...
    > > Since I'm trying to become an independent software consultant, do

    > Microsoft
    > > certifications help attract clients? And are they worth it?
    > > Thanks,
    > > VM
    > >
    > >

    >
    >
     
    Michael, Jul 22, 2003
    #11
  12. VM

    Michael Guest

    Maybe they don't open books anymore because we are in the new millenium.
    They access Books24/7 online. Just kidding :)


    "Danut" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > It is even worse when these guys act as designers/architects! Of course

    they
    > thing they are perfect and they know everything. They keep argue about how
    > wonderful is to keep a connection open forever.
    >
    > The worst part is that the last time they opened a book was the last
    > millemium.
    >
    > Danut
    >
    > "Guy Cox" <gcoxjr-$nospam$> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > > It should be against the law for a developer to accept payment for .Net
    > > development without holding at least an MCAD.. I've just run into too

    much
    > > junk code already. It's like putting a visually impared driver in a

    > Formula
    > > One racing car and have them try to drive through Manhattan.
    > >
    > > 1) One developer I saw created and opened a DB connection at form load,

    > and
    > > closed the connection at the same time he closed the form. - This tosses

    > all
    > > the connection management work MSFT has done right out the window. Then

    > the
    > > manager and users blames the platform or the framework when in reality

    it
    > > was an ignorant developer.
    > >
    > > 2) Same developer stored an entire class instance into the viewstate of

    a
    > > ASPX page... probably takes twice as long to decrypt/decode from the
    > > viewstate as it would to create the object from scratch... --- and

    what's
    > > the browser supposed to so with those 20K or so worth of bits that get

    > sent
    > > back to the browser in the hidden field where the viewstate lives.
    > >
    > > Just my $.02
    > >
    > > Guy
    > >
    > > "VM" <None> wrote in message

    news:uVoYQ$...
    > > > Since I'm trying to become an independent software consultant, do

    > > Microsoft
    > > > certifications help attract clients? And are they worth it?
    > > > Thanks,
    > > > VM
    > > >
    > > >

    > >
    > >

    >
    >
     
    Michael, Jul 22, 2003
    #12
  13. VM

    Martin Guest

    Personally I hove found certifications to be very very usefull in
    obtaining employment. I first became MCSD in 2000 when things were
    hot and it helped me find a job that gave me excellent experience. At
    the beginning of this year I lost my job and started to work on my
    ..NET certs. Again, with two dot net certs I as able to find an
    excellent develoment job using ASP.NET.

    I find that right now the market is becomming very hot for .net skills
    as many companies are starting projects for the first time with .net
    and realizing that it is very different from vb 6.0/ASP. These
    companies are desparate to hire people who have already know the
    syntax and new features of .net. Even with no experience these people
    are usefull as they can provide a database of .net specific knowledge
    for more experienced developers. Otherwise many .net projects end up
    looking like extra convoluted versions of ASP or webclass
    applications.

    In short, get the .net certs they will certainly help.

    Martin

    "Avi" <> wrote in message news:<09c201c3502d$22596460$>...
    > Well said mave
    > >-----Original Message-----
    > >It's really the mix that does the job.
    > >
    > >What you need is professional experience in writing good
    > >software. All certifications can do is put the dots on
    > >the "i".
    > >Anybody can pass the exams when they read the books cover
    > >to cover and take a couple of test-exams. Can they write
    > >good software... sorry but no.
    > >
    > >So when you've got an interesting resume the certificates
    > >might pull you through. Just putting "hey, i am an MCSD-
    > >certified programmer" won't.
    > >
    > >>-----Original Message-----
    > >>Since I'm trying to become an independent software

    > consultant, do Microsoft
    > >>certifications help attract clients? And are they worth

    > it?
    > >>Thanks,
    > >>VM
    > >>
    > >>
    > >>.
    > >>

    > >.
    > >
     
    Martin, Jul 22, 2003
    #13
  14. VM

    John S Guest

    Ha, Ha.

    I still expect a few people to fall for it.

    "Martin" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Personally I hove found certifications to be very very usefull in
    > obtaining employment. I first became MCSD in 2000 when things were
    > hot and it helped me find a job that gave me excellent experience. At
    > the beginning of this year I lost my job and started to work on my
    > .NET certs. Again, with two dot net certs I as able to find an
    > excellent develoment job using ASP.NET.
    >
    > I find that right now the market is becomming very hot for .net skills
    > as many companies are starting projects for the first time with .net
    > and realizing that it is very different from vb 6.0/ASP. These
    > companies are desparate to hire people who have already know the
    > syntax and new features of .net. Even with no experience these people
    > are usefull as they can provide a database of .net specific knowledge
    > for more experienced developers. Otherwise many .net projects end up
    > looking like extra convoluted versions of ASP or webclass
    > applications.
    >
    > In short, get the .net certs they will certainly help.
    >
    > Martin
    >
    > "Avi" <> wrote in message

    news:<09c201c3502d$22596460$>...
    > > Well said mave
    > > >-----Original Message-----
    > > >It's really the mix that does the job.
    > > >
    > > >What you need is professional experience in writing good
    > > >software. All certifications can do is put the dots on
    > > >the "i".
    > > >Anybody can pass the exams when they read the books cover
    > > >to cover and take a couple of test-exams. Can they write
    > > >good software... sorry but no.
    > > >
    > > >So when you've got an interesting resume the certificates
    > > >might pull you through. Just putting "hey, i am an MCSD-
    > > >certified programmer" won't.
    > > >
    > > >>-----Original Message-----
    > > >>Since I'm trying to become an independent software

    > > consultant, do Microsoft
    > > >>certifications help attract clients? And are they worth

    > > it?
    > > >>Thanks,
    > > >>VM
    > > >>
    > > >>
    > > >>.
    > > >>
    > > >.
    > > >
     
    John S, Jul 22, 2003
    #14
  15. VM

    Mike Maddux Guest

    In article <>, Roger Croft says...
    >
    >>Personally I hove found certifications to be very very usefull in
    >>obtaining employment.

    >
    >Me too.
    >
    >I have found the Sun & Oracle certifications to be very helpful in
    >getting contract work.


    All I know is that as soon as I added my MCSD logo to my resume, which had been
    languishing on Monster.com for quite awhile, I suddenly started getting nibbles.
    Also, now that I have a job, I am finding all of the stuff I learned while
    studying for MCSD very useful in surprising ways.

    Mike
     
    Mike Maddux, Oct 15, 2003
    #15
  16. VM

    Guest Guest

    I agree that the knowledge acquired while preparing for certification is
    very useful on a daily basis. How much value an employer places on
    certification depends on which employer.


    "Mike Maddux" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > In article <>, Roger Croft

    says...
    > >
    > >>Personally I hove found certifications to be very very usefull in
    > >>obtaining employment.

    > >
    > >Me too.
    > >
    > >I have found the Sun & Oracle certifications to be very helpful in
    > >getting contract work.

    >
    > All I know is that as soon as I added my MCSD logo to my resume, which had

    been
    > languishing on Monster.com for quite awhile, I suddenly started getting

    nibbles.
    > Also, now that I have a job, I am finding all of the stuff I learned while
    > studying for MCSD very useful in surprising ways.
    >
    > Mike
    >
     
    Guest, Oct 15, 2003
    #16
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