Apple brings the nanny state to the computer world

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by RichA, Feb 1, 2013.

  1. RichA

    RichA Guest

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  2. RichA

    Mayayana Guest

    ...
    |
    http://ibnlive.in.com/news/apple-blocks-java-on-macs-due-to-security-threat/370092-11.html
    |

    That's what Apple fans pay for. They're the AOLers
    of the 2010s. They just want to buy stuff and not
    have to understand security. Apple has always been
    a "nanny state". Most of the people I know using Macs
    switched to them for exactly that reason. (They believe
    Macs don't get malware, and to a great extent they're
    right.)

    In any case, there are very few cases where Java is
    needed online and there should be none. It's an unsafe
    system meant for corporate intranet applets. I've *never*
    had Java installed.
     
    Mayayana, Feb 1, 2013
    #2
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  3. RichA

    Martin Brown Guest

    On 01/02/2013 03:29, RichA wrote:
    > http://ibnlive.in.com/news/apple-blocks-java-on-macs-due-to-security-threat/370092-11.html
    >

    Given the nature of the threat Apple seem to have acted a bit late if
    anything. They could have handled announcing it better though. ISTR they
    took a similarly dim view of Adobe Flash on Apple platforms.

    Experts have disabled Java pretty much since the zero day vulnerability
    was discovered circulating in the wild and in script kiddy kits too.

    http://www.informationweek.com/security/attacks/another-java-zero-day-vulnerability-hits/240146416

    The price is quite reasonable considering the damage it can do.

    Websites including Google images have been acquiring spurious porn links
    recently and I suspect that the two may well be connected.

    --
    Regards,
    Martin Brown
     
    Martin Brown, Feb 1, 2013
    #3
  4. RichA

    Whisky-dave Guest

    On Friday, February 1, 2013 10:09:54 AM UTC, Martin Brown wrote:
    > On 01/02/2013 03:29, RichA wrote:
    >
    > > http://ibnlive.in.com/news/apple-blocks-java-on-macs-due-to-security-threat/370092-11.html

    >
    > >

    >
    > Given the nature of the threat Apple seem to have acted a bit late if
    >
    > anything. They could have handled announcing it better though. ISTR they
    >
    > took a similarly dim view of Adobe Flash on Apple platforms.
    >
    >
    >
    > Experts have disabled Java pretty much since the zero day vulnerability
    >
    > was discovered circulating in the wild and in script kiddy kits too.
    >
    >
    >
    > http://www.informationweek.com/security/attacks/another-java-zero-day-vulnerability-hits/240146416
    >
    >
    >
    > The price is quite reasonable considering the damage it can do.
    >
    >
    >
    > Websites including Google images have been acquiring spurious porn links
    >
    > recently and I suspect that the two may well be connected.
    >


    A friend of mine stopped playing minecraft on his PC when firefox on his PC disabled java, but theres an option for turning it back on at yuor own risk.
     
    Whisky-dave, Feb 1, 2013
    #4
  5. RichA

    Whisky-dave Guest

    On Friday, February 1, 2013 1:20:21 PM UTC, Bowser wrote:
    > On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 19:29:14 -0800 (PST), RichA <>
    >
    > wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    > >http://ibnlive.in.com/news/apple-blocks-java-on-macs-due-to-security-threat/370092-11.html

    >
    >
    >
    > Apple doe suck, but let's not ignore the real issue here: Java, and
    >
    > other programs like it, are swiss cheese and open your PC to a world
    >
    > of security issues. Adobe is next in line with Flash, their version of
    >
    > swiss cheese.



    Here's a post from someone that appears to know what they're doing and talking about.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------

    So Apple have declared Java a non-thing until Oracle pull their
    collective fingers out and make it less likely to cause your computer
    to be owned by Russian mobsters.

    If you really need to get around that, here's a way to pretend your
    currently installed Java 7u11 is a higher version than Apple forbid:

    https://discussions.apple.com/message/21097713#21097713

    which says
    Careful about the date change, the reasons should be obvious.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------
     
    Whisky-dave, Feb 1, 2013
    #5
  6. RichA

    Whisky-dave Guest

    On Friday, February 1, 2013 1:20:21 PM UTC, Bowser wrote:
    > On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 19:29:14 -0800 (PST), RichA <>
    >
    > wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    > >http://ibnlive.in.com/news/apple-blocks-java-on-macs-due-to-security-threat/370092-11.html

    >
    >
    >
    > Apple doe suck,



    I prefer apple sucking like this over the 'PC' way in which you ignore any security issues and get third party componies to write software you then have to pay for each year and install yourself to protect yourself.
    If only MS could do this sort of thing they'd be less virusus about.
     
    Whisky-dave, Feb 1, 2013
    #6
  7. RichA

    Mayayana Guest

    | > In any case, there are very few cases where Java is
    | > needed online and there should be none. It's an unsafe
    | > system meant for corporate intranet applets. I've *never*
    | > had Java installed.
    |
    | Huh? The entire web runs on Java.

    I don't know of any sites offhand. You may possibly
    run into it if you're doing something like online banking,
    but in general people don't need it.

    Perhaps you're thinking of javascript? There's no relation
    between the two other than the fact that both were
    designed to look like C++ in order to appeal to C++
    programmers.

    Java is semi-compiled software that runs
    on top of a gigantic support framework of libraries. (Like
    ..Net.) The idea was that it would be perfectly safe and
    fully cross-platform. It's never quite been either. Both
    Java and .Net sometimes "leak" into Desktop software,
    but they're really designed for writing corporate server
    applets that run on a closed system.

    Javascript is script (interpreted text code) mainly used
    within webpage code. (Personally I don't enable javascript
    in most cases, either. But if you use a lot of interactive
    sites, like "webmail", Facebook, Amazon, Netflix, etc. then
    it might very well seem to you that the whole Web runs
    on javascript.)
     
    Mayayana, Feb 1, 2013
    #7
  8. RichA

    RichA Guest

    On Feb 1, 8:20 am, Bowser <> wrote:
    > On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 19:29:14 -0800 (PST), RichA <>
    > wrote:
    >
    > >http://ibnlive.in.com/news/apple-blocks-java-on-macs-due-to-security-...

    >
    > Apple doe suck, but let's not ignore the real issue here: Java, and
    > other programs like it, are swiss cheese and open your PC to a world
    > of security issues. Adobe is next in line with Flash, their version of
    > swiss cheese.


    Much of the content on the web is Java-enabled. Use a product like No
    Script and you can control it, but you will not be able to read/watch
    a lot of what is out there.
     
    RichA, Feb 1, 2013
    #8
  9. RichA

    Mayayana Guest

    >
    Much of the content on the web is Java-enabled. Use a product like No
    Script and you can control it, but you will not be able to read/watch
    a lot of what is out there.
    >


    I think you're confusing Java with javascript. (See
    my post above.)

    There's also a distinction between using script and
    requiring script. (Java-enabled or script-enabled would
    describe the browser, not the webpage.) A lot of pages
    use script to enable things like simple animations,
    ad-embedding, and Google analytics tracking. Those
    pages don't necessarily require script. In fact, they usually
    work better without it, and they usually spy on you less
    without it. Then there are pages like webmail
    that are highly interactive and simply won't work without
    script. Third, there are a surprising number of dysfunctional
    pages designed by people who either don't know what
    they're doing or who are trying to force javascript enabling
    in order to show ads and perform spyware operations. A
    typical example is a site with a perfectly normal webpage,
    but where all the content is set not to display via CSS.
    Script is then used to toggle the display mode. Arriving at
    such a page with script disabled shows a blank, or nearly
    blank, page. If one then sets View -> Page Style -> No Style
    (to override CSS) the whole page appears!
     
    Mayayana, Feb 1, 2013
    #9
  10. RichA

    Whisky-dave Guest

    On Friday, February 1, 2013 2:16:10 PM UTC, Mayayana wrote:
    > | > In any case, there are very few cases where Java is
    >
    > | > needed online and there should be none. It's an unsafe
    >
    > | > system meant for corporate intranet applets. I've *never*
    >
    > | > had Java installed.
    >
    > |
    >
    > | Huh? The entire web runs on Java.
    >
    >
    >
    > I don't know of any sites offhand. You may possibly
    >
    > run into it if you're doing something like online banking,
    >
    > but in general people don't need it.


    Minecraft.
     
    Whisky-dave, Feb 1, 2013
    #10
  11. RichA

    MC Guest

    RichA wrote:

    >

    http://ibnlive.in.com/news/apple-blocks-java-on-macs-due-to-security-threat/370092-11.html

    Macs are, indeed, for the lazy comuter literate who require everything
    done for them or need to be told what they can and cannot do.

    Not long now and Apple will cut off the internet and have their own
    "internet". Sites of which will only contain content which users will
    be told how wonderful Apple is and how Apple products will change your
    life for the better and make you into a better person.

    "Apple Akbar..."

    MC
     
    MC, Feb 1, 2013
    #11
  12. RichA

    Whisky-dave Guest

    On Friday, February 1, 2013 4:28:18 PM UTC, MC wrote:
    > RichA wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    > >

    >
    > http://ibnlive.in.com/news/apple-blocks-java-on-macs-due-to-security-threat/370092-11.html
    >
    >
    >
    > Macs are, indeed, for the lazy comuter literate who require everything
    >
    > done for them or need to be told what they can and cannot do.


    No macs are for people that want to get things done quiclky and efficintly without havign to worry about such things as virusus.
    The first thing PC usuers are expected to do is sign up for a virus protection program or they pretty much screwed.



    > Not long now and Apple will cut off the internet and have their own
    >
    > "internet".


    yeah sure, it wou;ld be a good idea though ;-)

    > Sites of which will only contain content which users will
    >
    > be told how wonderful Apple is and how Apple products will change your
    >
    > life for the better and make you into a better person.


    That they do and we all know it.
    Even those the broke into microsoft decided to only steal Aplpe products now why was that ?
    Is it that even thieves are inteligent enough to reconginse a good and worthy product.


    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/01/07/ipad_theft_microsoft_campus/


    >
    >
    >
    > "Apple Akbar..."
    >
    >
    >
    > MC
     
    Whisky-dave, Feb 1, 2013
    #12
  13. RichA

    Mayayana Guest

    | > I don't know of any sites offhand. You may possibly
    | > run into it if you're doing something like online banking,
    | > but in general people don't need it.
    |
    | Minecraft.

    I'm guessing that's an online video game? That
    would make sense. Processor intensive functionality
    doesn't work over the Internet, so it really has to
    be done as installed software with an online connection.
    But I doubt there are a lot of people over about 18
    y.o. who care about that.
     
    Mayayana, Feb 1, 2013
    #13
  14. RichA

    MC Guest

    Whisky-dave wrote:

    > >
    > > Macs are, indeed, for the lazy comuter literate who require
    > > everything
    > >
    > > done for them or need to be told what they can and cannot do.

    >
    > No macs are for people that want to get things done quiclky and
    > efficintly without havign to worry about such things as virusus. The
    > first thing PC usuers are expected to do is sign up for a virus
    > protection program or they pretty much screwed.
    >


    Ah, the old virus excuse. Well don't get too relaxed.

    Thing is, I prefer freedom in how I use my computer and what I use it
    for. Apple seem to only want you to do with there products what they
    say you can.


    > Even those the broke into microsoft decided to only steal Aplpe
    > products now why was that ? Is it that even thieves are inteligent
    > enough to reconginse a good and worthy product.
    >
    >
    > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/01/07/ipad_theft_microsoft_campus/
    >


    Theives would have stolen whatever had the higher resale value, down
    the pub. They merely realised that the bigger mugs are the ones who
    will pay the higher price for an iPad just so they can join the ranks
    of the Apple fanbois. It is just another example of the success of
    Apple marketing.

    MC
     
    MC, Feb 1, 2013
    #14
  15. RichA

    MC Guest

    Mayayana wrote:

    > | > I don't know of any sites offhand. You may possibly
    > | > run into it if you're doing something like online banking,
    > | > but in general people don't need it.
    > >
    > > Minecraft.

    >
    > I'm guessing that's an online video game? That
    > would make sense. Processor intensive functionality
    > doesn't work over the Internet, so it really has to
    > be done as installed software with an online connection.
    > But I doubt there are a lot of people over about 18
    > y.o. who care about that.


    It does not matter who will use it. The point is that whoever does want
    to use it will be denied doing so.

    MC
     
    MC, Feb 1, 2013
    #15
  16. RichA

    Mayayana Guest

    | > But I doubt there are a lot of people over about 18
    | > y.o. who care about that.
    |
    | It does not matter who will use it. The point is that whoever does want
    | to use it will be denied doing so.
    |

    You mean with Apple's move? Maybe so. I'm certainly
    not defending Apple. I was only saying that most people
    can go without Java, if they even have it in the first place.
    (Read back up the subthread.)
     
    Mayayana, Feb 1, 2013
    #16
  17. RichA

    DanP Guest

    On Friday, 1 February 2013 19:14:43 UTC, MC wrote:

    > It does not matter who will use it. The point is that whoever does want
    > to use it will be denied doing so.


    Well, you have a point, if you buy the hardware you own it and can do whatever you want with it. Install Linux on dualboot on it and have full control. But most Mac users will stick to the Mac OS.

    I see Apple as an OS maker and I fully understand why they want their product to be safe by removing third party buggy software. Fortunately Apple is not the only OS manufacturer and you can install Linux or Windows on a Mac.


    DanP
     
    DanP, Feb 1, 2013
    #17
  18. RichA

    RichA Guest

    On Feb 1, 10:23 am, "Mayayana" <> wrote:
    > Much of the content on the web is Java-enabled.  Use a product like No
    > Script and you can control it, but you will not be able to read/watch
    > a lot of what is out there.
    >
    >
    >
    >    I think you're confusing Java with javascript. (See
    > my post above.)
    >
    >    There's also a distinction between using script and
    > requiring script. (Java-enabled or script-enabled would
    > describe the browser, not the webpage.) A lot of pages
    > use script to enable things like simple animations,
    > ad-embedding, and Google analytics tracking. Those
    > pages don't necessarily require script. In fact, they usually
    > work better without it, and they usually spy on you less
    > without it.


    More and more pages are linking the function of key elements with the
    script needed to run the ads. If you turn off that script, something
    in addition to the ads are disabled. Dpreview did it.
     
    RichA, Feb 1, 2013
    #18
  19. RichA

    MC Guest

    George Kerby wrote:

    >
    >
    >
    > On 2/1/13 1:13 PM, in article ,
    > "MC" <> wrote:
    >
    > > Whisky-dave wrote:
    > >
    > >>>
    > >>> Macs are, indeed, for the lazy comuter literate who require
    > >>> everything
    > >>>
    > >>> done for them or need to be told what they can and cannot do.
    > >>
    > >> No macs are for people that want to get things done quiclky and
    > >> efficintly without havign to worry about such things as virusus.

    > The >> first thing PC usuers are expected to do is sign up for a virus
    > >> protection program or they pretty much screwed.
    > >>

    > >
    > > Ah, the old virus excuse. Well don't get too relaxed.
    > >

    > How many years have you Hatebois been doing that mantra?
    >
    > When I want to get something done, I DAMNSURE ain't going to a box
    > that crashes every time you look at it wrong and to actually turn it
    > of in between rebooting because it constantly hangs, you have to go
    > to a icon that is labeled "START". F**K all that crap. And WinDoze 8
    > is immature rip-off of OS-X, with the interface that a Kindergartner
    > would scoff at...


    Mine never crashes.
    A bad workman ...

    MC
     
    MC, Feb 1, 2013
    #19
  20. RichA

    Mayayana Guest

    | > Perhaps you're thinking of javascript? There's no relation
    | > between the two other than the fact that both were
    | > designed to look like C++ in order to appeal to C++
    | > programmers.
    |
    | So Apple did not disable the Java which the web pages use but another
    | Java?

    Apple disabled Java, the "virtual machine" that used
    to be owned by Sun and is now owned by Oracle. The
    same Java that the Java programming language is used
    with. Java is used to write Java applets, which are a kind
    of semi-compiled software. Java applets can be
    embedded in webpages.

    But **very few webpages use Java.** (Like ActiveX,
    PDF plugins and Flash, Java is not really in the webpage.
    Rather, it's a software program that gets downloaded and
    runs as an executable, but appears to be part of the
    webpage. Like ActiveX, Java applets in webpages has
    fallen out of favor due to compatibility and safety issues.)

    If you want to use a webpage that requires Java you
    have to install the Java VM, which is somewhere around
    200 MB. You can then run Java software in your browser.
    If you want to use a webpage that requires javascript
    you just have to enable javascript and the browser will
    parse it.

    Apple did not disable javascript, which a lot of webpages
    use. Javascript is just text that is part of the webpage
    code, which gets interpreted by the browser when it
    renders the webpage.

    If you use Firefox then javascript is adjusted under
    Content-> Enable javascript, while Java is an add-on
    or plug-in.
    If you use Internet Explorer then Java (if it's even
    installed) is adjusted under Security -> Java VM while
    javascript is adjusted under Security -> Active scripting.

    In Windows you can check for Java, or uninstall it, in
    Add/Remove Programs, because it's a very big, installed
    software platform. Javascript is not installed. It's just
    an ability of the browser to read it.

    I hope that's clear. I don't know how else to explain it.
    Java is not javascript and javascript is not Java. The only
    thing they have in common is that both use a lot of ;
    and {}.
     
    Mayayana, Feb 1, 2013
    #20
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