Aperture limits with high shutter speeds in Panasonic FZ20

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Jan Böhme, Jul 18, 2005.

  1. Jan Böhme

    Jan Böhme Guest

    I recently bought a Panasonic FZ20, which I, by and large, am very
    pleased with. (Blown highlights seem much more of a problem than with
    my CP995, but they seem to be minimised by setting "Contrast" to low,
    and exposure compensation to -2/3 when photographing essentially any
    subject in sunlight.)

    But one remaining peeve is that my camera behaves in a way that seems
    illogic to me at high shutter speeds. Maximal shutter speed in all
    modes other than shutter priority is 1/1000. In shutter priority, one
    can go up to 1/2000.

    However, as one decreases the shutter time beyound 1/1000, an aperture
    limit is introduced. At 1/1300, the widest accepted aperture is f4.0,
    at 1/1600, it is f5.6, and at 2000, it is f8.0, the minimal aperture
    of the camera. The manual - at least my Swedish version - doesn't say
    a word about any such aperture limitations when it discusses the
    shutter priority mode, though.

    To me, this means that two of the three possible uses for high shutter
    speeds are disabled. You can´t use it to get a shallow DOF at high
    light intensity, and you can't use it to stop a very fast movement in
    less-than-very-intense light. The only thing that remains is the
    capacity to take properly exposed photos in very intense light - which
    would have been equally well catered for by instead including an f11
    aperture and doing away with the 1/1000+ shutter times altogether.

    Is this the way the camera is supposed to work - which means that I
    basically should regard it as a camera with 1/1000 as its fastest
    shutter speed and some limited additional capacity to expose properly
    in very intense light - or should I complain to the vendor?

    And if it is the intended way it works, does anyone kow why on earth
    this is so? Is it there in the FZ5? And is there, by any chance,
    hacked firmwares around also for the Panasonic FZ series? :)

    Jan Böhme
    Korrekta personuppgifter är att betrakta som journalistik.
    Felaktigheter utgör naturligtvis skönlitteratur.
     
    Jan Böhme, Jul 18, 2005
    #1
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  2. On Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:58:45 +0200, Jan Böhme <> wrote:
    >
    > However, as one decreases the shutter time beyound 1/1000, an aperture
    > limit is introduced. At 1/1300, the widest accepted aperture is f4.0,
    > at 1/1600, it is f5.6, and at 2000, it is f8.0, the minimal aperture
    > of the camera. The manual - at least my Swedish version - doesn't say
    > a word about any such aperture limitations when it discusses the
    > shutter priority mode, though.


    [...]

    > And if it is the intended way it works, does anyone kow why on earth
    > this is so? Is it there in the FZ5? And is there, by any chance,
    > hacked firmwares around also for the Panasonic FZ series? :)


    I have an FZ5, and it behaves the same way. The behavior is documented
    in the manual (English version), which has a table of allowed apertures
    for a given shutter speed, and also a somewhat redundant second table of
    allowed shutter speeds for a given aperture.

    I don't know why it was designed that way, but my guess is that there's
    a limit to the cycle speed of the shutter mechanism, and that speed is
    insufficient to mask the larger apertures in the shorter exposure times.

    -dms
     
    Daniel Silevitch, Jul 18, 2005
    #2
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  3. Jan Böhme

    measekite Guest

    If this causes a problem should I more strongly consider buying a Canon
    S2 over a Pan FZ5?

    Jan Böhme wrote:

    >I recently bought a Panasonic FZ20, which I, by and large, am very
    >pleased with. (Blown highlights seem much more of a problem than with
    >my CP995, but they seem to be minimised by setting "Contrast" to low,
    >and exposure compensation to -2/3 when photographing essentially any
    >subject in sunlight.)
    >
    >But one remaining peeve is that my camera behaves in a way that seems
    >illogic to me at high shutter speeds. Maximal shutter speed in all
    >modes other than shutter priority is 1/1000. In shutter priority, one
    >can go up to 1/2000.
    >
    >However, as one decreases the shutter time beyound 1/1000, an aperture
    >limit is introduced. At 1/1300, the widest accepted aperture is f4.0,
    >at 1/1600, it is f5.6, and at 2000, it is f8.0, the minimal aperture
    >of the camera. The manual - at least my Swedish version - doesn't say
    >a word about any such aperture limitations when it discusses the
    >shutter priority mode, though.
    >
    >To me, this means that two of the three possible uses for high shutter
    >speeds are disabled. You can´t use it to get a shallow DOF at high
    >light intensity, and you can't use it to stop a very fast movement in
    >less-than-very-intense light. The only thing that remains is the
    >capacity to take properly exposed photos in very intense light - which
    >would have been equally well catered for by instead including an f11
    >aperture and doing away with the 1/1000+ shutter times altogether.
    >
    >Is this the way the camera is supposed to work - which means that I
    >basically should regard it as a camera with 1/1000 as its fastest
    >shutter speed and some limited additional capacity to expose properly
    >in very intense light - or should I complain to the vendor?
    >
    >And if it is the intended way it works, does anyone kow why on earth
    >this is so? Is it there in the FZ5? And is there, by any chance,
    >hacked firmwares around also for the Panasonic FZ series? :)
    >
    >Jan Böhme
    >Korrekta personuppgifter är att betrakta som journalistik.
    >Felaktigheter utgör naturligtvis skönlitteratur.
    >
    >
     
    measekite, Jul 18, 2005
    #3
  4. On Mon, 18 Jul 2005 20:35:21 GMT, measekite <> wrote:
    > Jan Böhme wrote:
    >>
    >>However, as one decreases the shutter time beyound 1/1000, an aperture
    >>limit is introduced. At 1/1300, the widest accepted aperture is f4.0,
    >>at 1/1600, it is f5.6, and at 2000, it is f8.0, the minimal aperture
    >>of the camera. The manual - at least my Swedish version - doesn't say
    >>a word about any such aperture limitations when it discusses the
    >>shutter priority mode, though.


    > If this causes a problem should I more strongly consider buying a Canon
    > S2 over a Pan FZ5?



    The S2 IS does the same thing, at least according to some of the reviews
    I saw.

    <Looks up S2 IS manual on web>
    Yep.

    From pg 86 of the Canon manual:
    Aperture Fastest Shutter
    f/2.7-3.5 1/1600
    f/4.0-5.0 1/2000
    f/5.6-7.1 1/2500
    f/8.0 1/3200

    That's at the wide end of the zoom. At maximum telephoto, it slows down:
    Aperture Fastest Shutter
    f/3.5-4.5 1/1600
    f/5.0-6.3 1/2000
    f/7.1-8.0 1/2500

    The Panasonic has a slower shutter speed (maxing out at 1/2000), but the
    speed limitations are independent of the zoom setting.

    -dms
     
    Daniel Silevitch, Jul 18, 2005
    #4
  5. Jan Böhme

    measekite Guest

    It appears, unless I do not have all of the information that the S2 and FZ5
    are close. Some people have stated that the skin tones on the Canon are
    better and more realistic while the FZ5 may be better on scenery. I
    would like to know if that is true since skin tones are very important
    to me.

    Other than that I think I am going to choose the one that just feels
    better in my hand. If they are the same then I need to choose between
    an all black one or a swivel LCD.

    I know the FZ5 is lighter but will that make that much of a difference
    when comparted with the S2.

    I do here that the FZ5 is faster in burst mode, exposure bracketing, and
    auto focusing. That would see to be an advantage but I do not know how
    much importance to give that.

    If I opt for the FZ5 I will get it at the end of the summer. But if I
    opt for the Canon I will probably wait until the end of the year when
    the price may come down.

    Your comments are welcome.







    Daniel Silevitch wrote:

    >On Mon, 18 Jul 2005 20:35:21 GMT, measekite <> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>Jan Böhme wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>However, as one decreases the shutter time beyound 1/1000, an aperture
    >>>limit is introduced. At 1/1300, the widest accepted aperture is f4.0,
    >>>at 1/1600, it is f5.6, and at 2000, it is f8.0, the minimal aperture
    >>>of the camera. The manual - at least my Swedish version - doesn't say
    >>>a word about any such aperture limitations when it discusses the
    >>>shutter priority mode, though.
    >>>
    >>>

    >
    >
    >
    >>If this causes a problem should I more strongly consider buying a Canon
    >>S2 over a Pan FZ5?
    >>
    >>

    >
    >
    >The S2 IS does the same thing, at least according to some of the reviews
    >I saw.
    >
    ><Looks up S2 IS manual on web>
    >Yep.
    >
    >From pg 86 of the Canon manual:
    >Aperture Fastest Shutter
    >f/2.7-3.5 1/1600
    >f/4.0-5.0 1/2000
    >f/5.6-7.1 1/2500
    >f/8.0 1/3200
    >
    >That's at the wide end of the zoom. At maximum telephoto, it slows down:
    >Aperture Fastest Shutter
    >f/3.5-4.5 1/1600
    >f/5.0-6.3 1/2000
    >f/7.1-8.0 1/2500
    >
    >The Panasonic has a slower shutter speed (maxing out at 1/2000), but the
    >speed limitations are independent of the zoom setting.
    >
    >-dms
    >
    >
     
    measekite, Jul 19, 2005
    #5
  6. Jan Böhme

    Jerome Bigge Guest

    On Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:58:45 +0200, Jan Böhme <> wrote:

    >I recently bought a Panasonic FZ20, which I, by and large, am very
    >pleased with. (Blown highlights seem much more of a problem than with
    >my CP995, but they seem to be minimised by setting "Contrast" to low,
    >and exposure compensation to -2/3 when photographing essentially any
    >subject in sunlight.)
    >
    >But one remaining peeve is that my camera behaves in a way that seems
    >illogic to me at high shutter speeds. Maximal shutter speed in all
    >modes other than shutter priority is 1/1000. In shutter priority, one
    >can go up to 1/2000.
    >
    >However, as one decreases the shutter time beyound 1/1000, an aperture
    >limit is introduced. At 1/1300, the widest accepted aperture is f4.0,
    >at 1/1600, it is f5.6, and at 2000, it is f8.0, the minimal aperture
    >of the camera. The manual - at least my Swedish version - doesn't say
    >a word about any such aperture limitations when it discusses the
    >shutter priority mode, though.
    >
    >To me, this means that two of the three possible uses for high shutter
    >speeds are disabled. You can´t use it to get a shallow DOF at high
    >light intensity, and you can't use it to stop a very fast movement in
    >less-than-very-intense light. The only thing that remains is the
    >capacity to take properly exposed photos in very intense light - which
    >would have been equally well catered for by instead including an f11
    >aperture and doing away with the 1/1000+ shutter times altogether.
    >
    >Is this the way the camera is supposed to work - which means that I
    >basically should regard it as a camera with 1/1000 as its fastest
    >shutter speed and some limited additional capacity to expose properly
    >in very intense light - or should I complain to the vendor?
    >
    >And if it is the intended way it works, does anyone kow why on earth
    >this is so? Is it there in the FZ5? And is there, by any chance,
    >hacked firmwares around also for the Panasonic FZ series? :)
    >
    >Jan Böhme
    >Korrekta personuppgifter är att betrakta som journalistik.
    >Felaktigheter utgör naturligtvis skönlitteratur.


    I saw this idea done back in 1960 with the Minolta "V2" which
    was a leaf shutter camera with a top speed of 1/2000. Four
    times as fast as other leaf shutter cameras could do at the
    time. At 1/1000 the maximum aperture was F4. At 1/2000 it
    was F8. Smaller diameter opening allowing higher speeds.
    There's nothing really "new" about it. As a matter of fact two
    of my digital cameras do something like this with the maximum
    aperture allowing only a lesser shutter speed. So Panasonic
    isn't the only camera maker that does this sort of thing... And
    if you want a laugh, I have two Kodak (cheap, fixed focus, F4.5)
    digitals that have a maximum shutter speed of 1/3200 of a second!

    Jerome Bigge
    Photographer and Astronomer
    Author of the "Warlady" & "Wartime" series.
    Download at "http://members.tripod.com/~jbigge"
     
    Jerome Bigge, Jul 19, 2005
    #6
  7. Jan Böhme <> writes:

    >However, as one decreases the shutter time beyound 1/1000, an aperture
    >limit is introduced. At 1/1300, the widest accepted aperture is f4.0,
    >at 1/1600, it is f5.6, and at 2000, it is f8.0, the minimal aperture
    >of the camera. The manual - at least my Swedish version - doesn't say
    >a word about any such aperture limitations when it discusses the
    >shutter priority mode, though.


    Some of the Canon P&S cameras (e.g. G2) have a similar limitation. It's
    because a single mechanism is used as the shutter and aperture. The
    blades take a certain amount of time to reach full opening, and that
    limits the full-aperture shutter speed. If you're willing to accept a
    smaller aperture, you can get a shorter exposure too. This helps the
    camera deal with very bright lighting, but doesn't let you use full
    aperture at maximum speed.

    The alternative, with that shutter mechanism, is to limit the highest
    speed to 1/1000. Would that make you happier? Probably not. (Canon
    does document these limits in the manual).

    >To me, this means that two of the three possible uses for high shutter
    >speeds are disabled. You can´t use it to get a shallow DOF at high
    >light intensity, and you can't use it to stop a very fast movement in
    >less-than-very-intense light.


    If you want very fast shutter speeds at full aperture, you need a focal
    plane shutter and separate aperture mechanism. In other words, you need
    a SLR. This limitation of leaf shutters is not unique to digital
    cameras.

    >The only thing that remains is the
    >capacity to take properly exposed photos in very intense light - which
    >would have been equally well catered for by instead including an f11
    >aperture and doing away with the 1/1000+ shutter times altogether.


    No, because at f/8 the image is already losing sharpness due to
    diffraction in any of the small-sensor P&S cameras. A higher shutter
    speed at f/8 will give you a sharper image. You've already got enormous
    DOF at f/8, so there's no reason at all to want f/11.

    >Is this the way the camera is supposed to work - which means that I
    >basically should regard it as a camera with 1/1000 as its fastest
    >shutter speed and some limited additional capacity to expose properly
    >in very intense light - or should I complain to the vendor?


    It's limited by some basic physics applying to that type of camera, with
    a small in-the-lens shutter and small sensor.

    Dave
     
    Dave Martindale, Jul 19, 2005
    #7
  8. Jan Böhme

    Jan Böhme Guest

    On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 14:38:10 +0000 (UTC), (Dave
    Martindale) wrote:

    >Jan Böhme <> writes:
    >
    >>However, as one decreases the shutter time beyound 1/1000, an aperture
    >>limit is introduced. At 1/1300, the widest accepted aperture is f4.0,
    >>at 1/1600, it is f5.6, and at 2000, it is f8.0, the minimal aperture
    >>of the camera. T


    >Some of the Canon P&S cameras (e.g. G2) have a similar limitation. It's
    >because a single mechanism is used as the shutter and aperture. The
    >blades take a certain amount of time to reach full opening, and that
    >limits the full-aperture shutter speed.


    The way you describe the mechanism, it sounds as if the center of the
    image would be considerably more exposed than the edges at high
    shutter speeds, giving rise to vignetting. But maybe this only would
    occur significantly at the disabled ccombinations of shutter speed and
    aperture.

    >If you're willing to accept a
    >smaller aperture, you can get a shorter exposure too. This helps the
    >camera deal with very bright lighting, but doesn't let you use full
    >aperture at maximum speed.
    >
    >The alternative, with that shutter mechanism, is to limit the highest
    >speed to 1/1000. Would that make you happier? Probably not.


    No, but not all that much less happy either. If one needs a ND filter
    to get shallow DOF in bright light anyway, then of course one can use
    the same ND filter under conditions of extremely bright light.

    >(Canon
    >does document these limits in the manual).


    So do Panasonic, I've discovered, only not at all at place where I
    expected it.

    >If you want very fast shutter speeds at full aperture, you need a focal
    >plane shutter and separate aperture mechanism. In other words, you need
    >a SLR.


    Wouldn't an electronic shutter do the trick, or are there other
    limitations in that case?

    >>The only thing that remains is the
    >>capacity to take properly exposed photos in very intense light - which
    >>would have been equally well catered for by instead including an f11
    >>aperture and doing away with the 1/1000+ shutter times altogether.

    >
    >No, because at f/8 the image is already losing sharpness due to
    >diffraction in any of the small-sensor P&S cameras. A higher shutter
    >speed at f/8 will give you a sharper image. You've already got enormous
    >DOF at f/8, so there's no reason at all to want f/11.


    I suppose not. It might have been more clever to say that it would
    have been equally well catered for by including an ISO40 sensitivity.

    BTW - is there some table of most favorable apertures for different
    sensor sizes, i.e which apertures are the equivalents of f8 for an SLR
    for different small-sensor digital cameras?

    Jan Böhme
    Korrekta personuppgifter är att betrakta som journalistik.
    Felaktigheter utgör naturligtvis skönlitteratur.
     
    Jan Böhme, Jul 19, 2005
    #8
  9. Jan Böhme

    per Guest

    "Jan Böhme" <> skrev i meddelandet
    news:...
    > BTW - is there some table of most favorable apertures for different
    > sensor sizes, i.e which apertures are the equivalents of f8 for an SLR
    > for different small-sensor digital cameras?
    >
    > Jan Böhme


    There is nothing equivalent at other scales. F8 is equvalent to F8 for light
    inlet, but something else for depth of field, and still something else for
    best resolution.
    You should try that out yourself with your camera, which aperture is the
    sharpest at different zoom lengths.
    The new Canon 350 lens (18-55), eg, is sharper at larger apertures and the
    old 300 lens, also18-55, is sharper at smaller apertures, so there is really
    no rule of thumb.
    /per
     
    per, Jul 19, 2005
    #9
  10. Jan Böhme

    vel Guest

    The Minolta Dimage A2 will set to 1/2000 sec at f3.2
     
    vel, Jul 20, 2005
    #10
  11. Jan Böhme

    frederick Guest

    Jan Böhme wrote:

    > BTW - is there some table of most favorable apertures for different
    > sensor sizes, i.e which apertures are the equivalents of f8 for an SLR
    > for different small-sensor digital cameras?
    >

    There is a table to calculate diffraction here:
    http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/diffraction-photography.htm

    There is also a link on that page to a DOF calculator, with a dropdown
    box to select the common sensor sizes.

    Some high mp cameras with small sensors probably have detail loss
    starting to occur at close to maximum (widest available) aperture, or at
    least some fall-off in contrast will have started. Combine this with
    the expectation that most lenses are not sharp at widest aperture -
    especially at extremes of the zoom range, and then it seems that often
    the high pixel count is wasted.
    For high mp small sensor cameras, very fast wide aperture lenses are not
    a luxury - they are an absolute necessity - and even then only a few
    stops are available with maximum sharpness.

    For DOF, you can see that a Canon G6 at f2.8 (one stop off maximimum
    wide) at 35mm equivalent has a hyperfocal distance of 2.5 metres.
    This is approximately the same as f22 on a typical dslr (and a stop
    higher on 35mm). It is a very big difference.
    For a hypothetical photo of a person 2.5 metres away from you, with a
    background vista, taken at 35mm (equiv focal length) and an expectation
    that everything in the frame will be 100% pin-sharp, then it is likely
    that a Canon G6 or similar will be able to provide exactly the result
    that you want. A dslr will probably not satisfy your expectations - as
    at the f22 the image resolution will be well and truly diffraction
    limited (but then again maybe not so much that it isn't still quite
    acceptable as a 6x4 snapshot).

    There is a lot of discussion and arguments about sensor size and noise.
    To me, the effect of sensor size on DOF is more important.
     
    frederick, Jul 20, 2005
    #11
  12. Jan Böhme

    ASAAR Guest

    On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 23:14:51 +0200, Jan Böhme wrote:

    >> Some of the Canon P&S cameras (e.g. G2) have a similar limitation. It's
    >> because a single mechanism is used as the shutter and aperture. The
    >> blades take a certain amount of time to reach full opening, and that
    >> limits the full-aperture shutter speed.

    >
    > The way you describe the mechanism, it sounds as if the center of the
    > image would be considerably more exposed than the edges at high
    > shutter speeds, giving rise to vignetting. But maybe this only would
    > occur significantly at the disabled ccombinations of shutter speed and
    > aperture.


    No. Assuming that there's little to no vignetting at small
    apertures at slow shutter speeds, the fastest shutter speeds won't
    introduce more vignetting. The center of the lens isn't used just
    for the center of the image. All parts of the lens's surface
    contribute. Cover all of the lens with an opaque covering except
    for a small region near the outer edge and it will still record the
    entire image, although with very little light so that you'll need a
    long shutter speed. Otherwise at f8, even with long exposures all
    cameras would have severe vignetting, not just at high shutter
    speeds.
     
    ASAAR, Jul 20, 2005
    #12
  13. Jan Böhme <> writes:

    >The way you describe the mechanism, it sounds as if the center of the
    >image would be considerably more exposed than the edges at high
    >shutter speeds, giving rise to vignetting. But maybe this only would
    >occur significantly at the disabled ccombinations of shutter speed and
    >aperture.


    Not at all. If the shutter were a focal plane shutter, then it could
    expose some portions of the image and not others. But being located
    right inside the lens, even the tiniest shutter opening passes light to
    the entire image area.

    And what you call the "disabled combinations" are not disabled in the
    sense of the firmware not allowing them. The firmware simply knows that
    the shutter *physically cannot open and close fast enough* to provide
    full aperture at the highest shutter speeds. It takes a finite amount
    of time for the shutter to open to f/2 (or whatever max aperture is) and
    then close down again.

    >No, but not all that much less happy either. If one needs a ND filter
    >to get shallow DOF in bright light anyway, then of course one can use
    >the same ND filter under conditions of extremely bright light.


    You'll probably find that you cannot get a shallow DOF at all, under any
    conditions, with this camera. The G2 (which is what I'm familiar with)
    has a sensor about 1/5 the dimensions of 35 film. Thus, when the lens
    is set to f/2 (wide open), the DOF provided by the camera is equivalent
    to a full-frame 35 camera with a lens having the same angle of view set
    to f/10, assuming equal print sizes. In other words, the shallowest DOF
    available from the G2 is only slightly less than the largest DOF
    available on the 35 camera with the lens stopped down to f/16.

    >>If you want very fast shutter speeds at full aperture, you need a focal
    >>plane shutter and separate aperture mechanism. In other words, you need
    >>a SLR.


    >Wouldn't an electronic shutter do the trick, or are there other
    >limitations in that case?


    Well, what technology of electronic shutter? The LCD and PLZT
    electronic shutters I know of aren't actually fully opaque when off -
    they need a supplementary mechanical shutter. Nor are they transparent
    when on - they eat a lot of light. Not really suitable for a still
    camera. Some video cameras have electronically-controlled shutter
    speed, but those only have to handle 1/30 second and faster - and
    require a CCD designed to do this.

    >>No, because at f/8 the image is already losing sharpness due to
    >>diffraction in any of the small-sensor P&S cameras. A higher shutter
    >>speed at f/8 will give you a sharper image. You've already got enormous
    >>DOF at f/8, so there's no reason at all to want f/11.


    >I suppose not. It might have been more clever to say that it would
    >have been equally well catered for by including an ISO40 sensitivity.


    You wouldn't want to reduce the fundamental sensitivity of the sensor,
    or you'd always have to shoot at ISO 40 for maximum quality, and without
    losing a couple of stops at the high end of the ISO range. You can't
    just "turn down the gain" electronically, because the lowest ISO is
    determined by the point at which the sensor pixel wells overflow. So an
    ND filter is actually a pretty good way to handle high brightness in a
    small-sensor camera.

    >BTW - is there some table of most favorable apertures for different
    >sensor sizes, i.e which apertures are the equivalents of f8 for an SLR
    >for different small-sensor digital cameras?


    You can straightforwardly calculate the amount of diffraction to expect,
    and it's proportional to the sensor size ratio. But the optimum
    aperture is determined by balancing diffraction and lens aberrations,
    and the aberrations do not necessarily scale down at the same rate. So
    it depends on each lens.

    Dave
     
    Dave Martindale, Jul 20, 2005
    #13
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