Any new Nikon lower-end D-SLRs coming?

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by SMS, Jul 1, 2008.

  1. SMS

    SMS Guest

    My sister-in-law finally has given up on P&S due to their shutter lag.
    She asked me for help in choosing a D-SLR with the following criteria:

    No-Compromise

    1. <= $1000 for body
    2. Minimum of 10 megapixels
    3. Not too heavy (800 grams or less)
    4. Wireless remote
    5. CMOS sensor (she doesn't really care about the sensor type, but needs
    low noise at high-ISO)

    Preferred

    1. Live View (I know, only a few models have this)
    2. 3" LCD
    3. 12 megapixels

    I suggested the D80, but she didn't like the reviews that talk about the
    noise levels at high ISO, and it has none of her "preferred" criteria.

    The only thing I could find that comes close is the Canon Rebel XSi,
    which is about $725. I'm really uneasy about the consumer grade Canon
    models though. I was hoping that Canon would release an upgrade to the
    40D with 12 megapixels and LiveView soon since it's almost a year since
    the 40D came out, and price it at around $1000, or that Nikon would
    upgrade the D80 with a 12 megapixel sensor, 3" LCD, and live view, kind
    of a lower end D300 (which I guess they wouldn't want to do because it
    might hurt D300 sales).

    She doesn't have any lenses, so she's not committed to any particular
    system, but she would prefer Nikon, because she has nearby friends that
    she can borrow lenses from when needed. Unfortunately, Nikon's offerings
    in the sub-$1000 price range are not very good.

    I saw the Nikon D700 announcement, but I wonder if Nikon will come up
    with some consumer models in the sub-$1000 (preferably sub-$800) price
    range that compete with Canon's offerings in that range. They now have
    nothing between the D80 and the D300.
    SMS, Jul 1, 2008
    #1
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  2. SMS

    Leigh Guest

    On Jul 1, 4:49 pm, SMS <> wrote:
    > My sister-in-law finally has given up on P&S due to their shutter lag.
    > She asked me for help in choosing a D-SLR with the following criteria:
    >
    > No-Compromise
    >
    > 1. <= $1000 for body
    > 2. Minimum of 10 megapixels
    > 3. Not too heavy (800 grams or less)
    > 4. Wireless remote
    > 5. CMOS sensor (she doesn't really care about the sensor type, but needs
    > low noise at high-ISO)
    >
    > Preferred
    >
    > 1. Live View (I know, only a few models have this)
    > 2. 3" LCD
    > 3. 12 megapixels
    >
    > I suggested the D80, but she didn't like the reviews that talk about the
    > noise levels at high ISO, and it has none of her "preferred" criteria.
    >
    > The only thing I could find that comes close is the Canon Rebel XSi,
    > which is about $725. I'm really uneasy about the consumer grade Canon
    > models though. I was hoping that Canon would release an upgrade to the
    > 40D with 12 megapixels and LiveView soon since it's almost a year since
    > the 40D came out, and price it at around $1000, or that Nikon would
    > upgrade the D80 with a 12 megapixel sensor, 3" LCD, and live view, kind
    > of a lower end D300 (which I guess they wouldn't want to do because it
    > might hurt D300 sales).
    >
    > She doesn't have any lenses, so she's not committed to any particular
    > system, but she would prefer Nikon, because she has nearby friends that
    > she can borrow lenses from when needed. Unfortunately, Nikon's offerings
    > in the sub-$1000 price range are not very good.
    >
    > I saw the Nikon D700 announcement, but I wonder if Nikon will come up
    > with some consumer models in the sub-$1000 (preferably sub-$800) price
    > range that compete with Canon's offerings in that range. They now have
    > nothing between the D80 and the D300.


    Actually I find the D40X (now D60) to be really really good - I don't
    think your sister should discount them quickly and she might be able
    to get an extra lens or two with the change?
    Leigh, Jul 1, 2008
    #2
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  3. SMS

    SMS Guest

    G Paleologopoulos wrote:

    > Apparently D90 real soon now.


    Great, any real specs?

    The only D90 specs I saw were at "http://yourphotoarchive.com/laugh.htm".

    I saw speculation that it would have live view and a 3.0" LCD and a 12
    megapixel sensor at
    "http://www.gadgetell.com/tech/comment/rumored-nikon-d90/" which makes
    sense given that Canon is already there.
    SMS, Jul 1, 2008
    #3
  4. SMS

    Leigh Guest

    On Jul 1, 4:49 pm, SMS <> wrote:
    > My sister-in-law finally has given up on P&S due to their shutter lag.
    > She asked me for help in choosing a D-SLR with the following criteria:
    >
    > No-Compromise
    >
    > 1. <= $1000 for body
    > 2. Minimum of 10 megapixels
    > 3. Not too heavy (800 grams or less)
    > 4. Wireless remote
    > 5. CMOS sensor (she doesn't really care about the sensor type, but needs
    > low noise at high-ISO)
    >
    > Preferred
    >
    > 1. Live View (I know, only a few models have this)
    > 2. 3" LCD
    > 3. 12 megapixels
    >
    > I suggested the D80, but she didn't like the reviews that talk about the
    > noise levels at high ISO, and it has none of her "preferred" criteria.
    >
    > The only thing I could find that comes close is the Canon Rebel XSi,
    > which is about $725. I'm really uneasy about the consumer grade Canon
    > models though. I was hoping that Canon would release an upgrade to the
    > 40D with 12 megapixels and LiveView soon since it's almost a year since
    > the 40D came out, and price it at around $1000, or that Nikon would
    > upgrade the D80 with a 12 megapixel sensor, 3" LCD, and live view, kind
    > of a lower end D300 (which I guess they wouldn't want to do because it
    > might hurt D300 sales).
    >
    > She doesn't have any lenses, so she's not committed to any particular
    > system, but she would prefer Nikon, because she has nearby friends that
    > she can borrow lenses from when needed. Unfortunately, Nikon's offerings
    > in the sub-$1000 price range are not very good.
    >
    > I saw the Nikon D700 announcement, but I wonder if Nikon will come up
    > with some consumer models in the sub-$1000 (preferably sub-$800) price
    > range that compete with Canon's offerings in that range. They now have
    > nothing between the D80 and the D300.


    Sorry, forgot to add that Pentax K200D might fit the bill or even the
    K20D (14mp) or it's almost identical Samsung sister GX20.
    Leigh, Jul 1, 2008
    #4
  5. SMS

    nospam Guest

    In article <Lmsak.674$>, SMS
    <> wrote:

    > or that Nikon would
    > upgrade the D80 with a 12 megapixel sensor, 3" LCD, and live view, kind
    > of a lower end D300 (which I guess they wouldn't want to do because it
    > might hurt D300 sales).


    nonsense. the d80 was basically a d200-lite, and it didn't seem to
    have an adverse effect on the d200. the d80 replacement is expected to
    be a d300-lite.

    > She doesn't have any lenses, so she's not committed to any particular
    > system, but she would prefer Nikon, because she has nearby friends that
    > she can borrow lenses from when needed. Unfortunately, Nikon's offerings
    > in the sub-$1000 price range are not very good.


    they're actually very good cameras. plus, the d80 you suggested is
    less than $1000.

    > I saw the Nikon D700 announcement, but I wonder if Nikon will come up
    > with some consumer models in the sub-$1000 (preferably sub-$800) price
    > range that compete with Canon's offerings in that range. They now have
    > nothing between the D80 and the D300.


    the d80 replacement is expected soon.
    nospam, Jul 1, 2008
    #5
  6. SMS

    SMS Guest

    nospam wrote:
    > In article <Lmsak.674$>, SMS
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >> or that Nikon would
    >> upgrade the D80 with a 12 megapixel sensor, 3" LCD, and live view, kind
    >> of a lower end D300 (which I guess they wouldn't want to do because it
    >> might hurt D300 sales).

    >
    > nonsense. the d80 was basically a d200-lite, and it didn't seem to
    > have an adverse effect on the d200. the d80 replacement is expected to
    > be a d300-lite.


    Very different situation. The D300 and D3 are awesome cameras, and the
    D700 looks like it will be a 5D killer (at least until Canon replaces
    the 5D).

    The D200 was basically a placeholder until Nikon could catch up in terms
    of CMOS sensors with Canon. Now they're there except at the very high
    end (they have no model to compete with the EOS-1Ds Mark III).

    I'm sure that a D80 replacement with a 12 megapixel CMOS sensor and Live
    View is coming very soon, and that's what she'll wait for, at least for
    a couple of months. It should blow the pants off the Canon XSi.
    SMS, Jul 1, 2008
    #6
  7. SMS

    nospam Guest

    In article <Bhvak.3210$>, SMS
    <> wrote:

    > >> or that Nikon would
    > >> upgrade the D80 with a 12 megapixel sensor, 3" LCD, and live view, kind
    > >> of a lower end D300 (which I guess they wouldn't want to do because it
    > >> might hurt D300 sales).

    > >
    > > nonsense. the d80 was basically a d200-lite, and it didn't seem to
    > > have an adverse effect on the d200. the d80 replacement is expected to
    > > be a d300-lite.

    >
    > Very different situation. The D300 and D3 are awesome cameras, and the
    > D700 looks like it will be a 5D killer (at least until Canon replaces
    > the 5D).


    it's exactly the same situation. the d80 (and presumably it's
    replacement) are 'lite' versions (defeatured, as you like to call it)
    of the d200 and d300. in fact, the d700 is basically a d3-lite.

    > The D200 was basically a placeholder until Nikon could catch up in terms
    > of CMOS sensors with Canon. Now they're there except at the very high
    > end (they have no model to compete with the EOS-1Ds Mark III).


    nonsense. the d200 was (and still is) an excellent camera. and the
    d3x (or whatever its name will be) is expected soon.

    > I'm sure that a D80 replacement with a 12 megapixel CMOS sensor and Live
    > View is coming very soon, and that's what she'll wait for, at least for
    > a couple of months. It should blow the pants off the Canon XSi.


    maybe it will erode some of your anti-nikon bias :)
    nospam, Jul 1, 2008
    #7
  8. In message news:g4e3uq$on7$, lid done
    wrote:

    > A new full-frame camera needs to have the same pixel density
    > as the common crop-frame ones


    Not if you want low noise at high ISO.
    Alotta Fagina, Jul 1, 2008
    #8
  9. lid wrote:
    >A new full-frame camera needs to have the same pixel density
    >as the common crop-frame ones, say a minimum of 9 megapixels for
    >a 1.6 crop camera, 12 being optimal.


    Many people would argue that a lower pixel density is more desirable
    because that allows the individual pixel to be larger, thus capturing
    more light in low-light conditions and producing less noise in
    particular at high ISO.

    Of course you have to balance this with a higher pixel count for large
    enlargement prints.

    >I'm looking for that 23 megapixel camera. The 30.7 one is getting
    >a bit difficult to get corner-is-sharp glass for, except
    >teles.


    Those exist already from e.g. Mayima and Hasselblad. With nice, large
    pixels, too. Just a bit outside of most peoples price range :-(

    jue
    Jürgen Exner, Jul 1, 2008
    #9
  10. SMS

    Matt Ion Guest

    SMS wrote:
    > My sister-in-law finally has given up on P&S due to their shutter lag.
    > She asked me for help in choosing a D-SLR with the following criteria:
    >
    > No-Compromise
    >
    > 1. <= $1000 for body
    > 2. Minimum of 10 megapixels
    > 3. Not too heavy (800 grams or less)
    > 4. Wireless remote
    > 5. CMOS sensor (she doesn't really care about the sensor type, but needs
    > low noise at high-ISO)
    >
    > Preferred
    >
    > 1. Live View (I know, only a few models have this)
    > 2. 3" LCD
    > 3. 12 megapixels
    >
    > I suggested the D80, but she didn't like the reviews that talk about the
    > noise levels at high ISO, and it has none of her "preferred" criteria.
    >
    > The only thing I could find that comes close is the Canon Rebel XSi,
    > which is about $725. I'm really uneasy about the consumer grade Canon
    > models though.


    For under $1000, you're pretty much limited to "consumer grade" models
    no matter what brand you look at. There's nothing wrong with that - my
    Canon 300D (the original Digital Rebel) has served me well for almost 4
    years and over 33,000 shutter actuations, and has only recently
    developed an intermittent "sticky shutter", which prompted an upgrade to
    a 40D.

    The XSi actually fits ALL of her criteria quite nicely. The 40D is
    heavier than her "required" weight, and I would expect any successor to
    be heavier as well, and definitely over the budget. In fact, using the
    comparison chart at www.dpreview.com, the XSi is the ONLY model under
    $1000 that matches all her criteria.

    > She doesn't have any lenses, so she's not committed to any particular
    > system, but she would prefer Nikon, because she has nearby friends that
    > she can borrow lenses from when needed. Unfortunately, Nikon's offerings
    > in the sub-$1000 price range are not very good.


    While the ability to borrow friends' lenses is nice, I'd say it's more
    important that she find a camera that is easy and comfortable FOR HER to
    use, and above all else, that means narrowing the choice down to three
    or four models, then actually going in to the store and playing with
    each of them. Check the handling, check the menu navigation, check the
    balance... she wants a camera that she'll ENJOY working with, that's not
    confusing to configure, that's not uncomfortable to operate.

    I gave this same advice to two friends who were shopping for DSLRs
    recently... one ended up with a D80 (I did also tell him he should get a
    Canon, specifically so I could borrow his lenses, but he didn't listen
    to that part), the other with a Pentax *ist, their choices based largely
    on the "comfort" criteria. After all, if you find your camera kludgy to
    work with, it's more likely to sit on a shelf rather than being used
    regularly, and what's the point of that?
    Matt Ion, Jul 1, 2008
    #10
  11. SMS

    SMS Guest

    lid wrote:
    > I find this D700 unexciting.
    >
    > A new full-frame camera needs to have the same pixel density
    > as the common crop-frame ones, say a minimum of 9 megapixels for
    > a 1.6 crop camera, 12 being optimal.


    That's exactly what you don't want. The big advantage of the full frame
    sensor is the ability to have larger pixels for lower noise. It took
    Nikon a long time to understand the benefits of full frame (of course
    I'm being facetious, they understood the benefits but until they came
    out with a full frame model they were constantly whining about how
    unnecessary full frame actually was).

    In any case, the D90 (or whatever the successor to the D80 will be
    called) will be what my relative waits for. The D80 is okay, but has too
    many negatives for her.
    SMS, Jul 1, 2008
    #11
  12. SMS

    SMS Guest

    Matt Ion wrote:

    > The XSi actually fits ALL of her criteria quite nicely. The 40D is
    > heavier than her "required" weight, and I would expect any successor to
    > be heavier as well, and definitely over the budget. In fact, using the
    > comparison chart at www.dpreview.com, the XSi is the ONLY model under
    > $1000 that matches all her criteria.


    Yes, this is true. But I think she'll wait and see how the D80 successor
    looks before making a decision. Nikon can't possibly continue to lag so
    badly behind Canon in the sub-$1000 segment, and the rumors about a 90D
    probably have a lot of substance.

    > While the ability to borrow friends' lenses is nice, I'd say it's more
    > important that she find a camera that is easy and comfortable FOR HER to
    > use, and above all else, that means narrowing the choice down to three
    > or four models, then actually going in to the store and playing with
    > each of them. Check the handling, check the menu navigation, check the
    > balance... she wants a camera that she'll ENJOY working with, that's not
    > confusing to configure, that's not uncomfortable to operate.
    >
    > I gave this same advice to two friends who were shopping for DSLRs
    > recently... one ended up with a D80 (I did also tell him he should get a
    > Canon, specifically so I could borrow his lenses, but he didn't listen
    > to that part), the other with a Pentax *ist, their choices based largely
    > on the "comfort" criteria.


    Pentax or Olympus or Sony isn't going to happen for one big reason, and
    that's that she needs to be able to rent or borrow high-end zoom lenses
    on occasion (for sports tournaments one of her kids is in).

    You're probably right about the XSi, but the Canon entry-level models
    just feel so cheaply made, but maybe it's just perception.
    SMS, Jul 1, 2008
    #12
  13. SMS

    Archibald Guest

    On Tue, 01 Jul 2008 08:49:56 -0700, SMS <>
    wrote:

    > I was hoping that Canon would release an upgrade to the
    >40D with 12 megapixels and LiveView soon since it's almost a year since
    >the 40D came out, and price it at around $1000,...


    The Canon EOS 50D will be announced in the spring of 2009.

    Archibald
    Archibald, Jul 2, 2008
    #13
  14. SMS

    nospam Guest

    In article <5dyak.6673$>, SMS
    <> wrote:

    > That's exactly what you don't want. The big advantage of the full frame
    > sensor is the ability to have larger pixels for lower noise. It took
    > Nikon a long time to understand the benefits of full frame (of course
    > I'm being facetious, they understood the benefits but until they came
    > out with a full frame model they were constantly whining about how
    > unnecessary full frame actually was).


    they weren't constantly whining at all. they simply said that it
    wasn't cost effective to produce one at the time, and they'd revisit
    the decision when it was.

    however, *users* constantly whined about it.
    nospam, Jul 2, 2008
    #14
  15. SMS

    nospam Guest

    In article <Zhyak.6674$>, SMS
    <> wrote:

    > Matt Ion wrote:
    >
    > > The XSi actually fits ALL of her criteria quite nicely. The 40D is
    > > heavier than her "required" weight, and I would expect any successor to
    > > be heavier as well, and definitely over the budget. In fact, using the
    > > comparison chart at www.dpreview.com, the XSi is the ONLY model under
    > > $1000 that matches all her criteria.

    >
    > Yes, this is true. But I think she'll wait and see how the D80 successor
    > looks before making a decision. Nikon can't possibly continue to lag so
    > badly behind Canon in the sub-$1000 segment, and the rumors about a 90D
    > probably have a lot of substance.


    lag so badly? that's just your anti-nikon bias. the d40/d40x/d60/d80
    are very good cameras, and nikon sales in that segment reflect that,
    gaining market share over canon.
    nospam, Jul 2, 2008
    #15
  16. SMS

    Matt Ion Guest

    nospam wrote:
    > In article <Zhyak.6674$>, SMS
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >> Matt Ion wrote:
    >>
    >>> The XSi actually fits ALL of her criteria quite nicely. The 40D is
    >>> heavier than her "required" weight, and I would expect any successor to
    >>> be heavier as well, and definitely over the budget. In fact, using the
    >>> comparison chart at www.dpreview.com, the XSi is the ONLY model under
    >>> $1000 that matches all her criteria.

    >> Yes, this is true. But I think she'll wait and see how the D80 successor
    >> looks before making a decision. Nikon can't possibly continue to lag so
    >> badly behind Canon in the sub-$1000 segment, and the rumors about a 90D
    >> probably have a lot of substance.

    >
    > lag so badly? that's just your anti-nikon bias.


    And a pro-Nikon bias is better?

    NO bias is going to help this discussion. The simple fact is, there's
    only one DSLR currently on the market that actually fits ALL of the
    listed criteria, and that's the XSi. For this particular shopper,
    therefore, Nikon is lagging.
    Matt Ion, Jul 2, 2008
    #16
  17. SMS

    measekite Guest

    SMS wrote:
    > My sister-in-law finally has given up on P&S due to their shutter lag.
    > She asked me for help in choosing a D-SLR with the following criteria:
    >
    > No-Compromise
    >
    > 1. <= $1000 for body
    > 2. Minimum of 10 megapixels
    > 3. Not too heavy (800 grams or less)
    > 4. Wireless remote
    > 5. CMOS sensor (she doesn't really care about the sensor type, but
    > needs low noise at high-ISO)
    >
    > Preferred
    >
    > 1. Live View (I know, only a few models have this)
    > 2. 3" LCD
    > 3. 12 megapixels
    >
    > I suggested the D80, but she didn't like the reviews that talk about
    > the noise levels at high ISO, and it has none of her "preferred"
    > criteria.
    >
    > The only thing I could find that comes close is the Canon Rebel XSi,

    An excellent camera. About the same image quality as the 40D.
    > which is about $725. I'm really uneasy about the consumer grade Canon
    > models though. I was hoping that Canon would release an upgrade to the
    > 40D with 12 megapixels

    You will not see the difference between 10 and 12. I read that the 40D
    does a little better on noise than the XSI.
    > and LiveView soon since it's almost a year since the 40D came out, and
    > price it at around $1000, or that Nikon would upgrade the D80 with a
    > 12 megapixel sensor, 3" LCD, and live view, kind of a lower end D300
    > (which I guess they wouldn't want to do because it might hurt D300
    > sales).
    >
    > She doesn't have any lenses, so she's not committed to any particular
    > system, but she would prefer Nikon, because she has nearby friends
    > that she can borrow lenses from when needed. Unfortunately, Nikon's
    > offerings in the sub-$1000 price range are not very good.
    >
    > I saw the Nikon D700 announcement, but I wonder if Nikon will come up
    > with some consumer models in the sub-$1000 (preferably sub-$800) price
    > range that compete with Canon's offerings in that range. They now have
    > nothing between the D80 and the D300.
    measekite, Jul 2, 2008
    #17
  18. SMS

    nospam Guest

    In article <g4eh8p$n04$>, Matt Ion
    <> wrote:

    > >> Yes, this is true. But I think she'll wait and see how the D80 successor
    > >> looks before making a decision. Nikon can't possibly continue to lag so
    > >> badly behind Canon in the sub-$1000 segment, and the rumors about a 90D
    > >> probably have a lot of substance.

    > >
    > > lag so badly? that's just your anti-nikon bias.

    >
    > And a pro-Nikon bias is better?


    how about no bias? he has a history of slagging anything other than
    canon.

    > NO bias is going to help this discussion.


    exactly my point.

    > The simple fact is, there's
    > only one DSLR currently on the market that actually fits ALL of the
    > listed criteria, and that's the XSi. For this particular shopper,
    > therefore, Nikon is lagging.


    he didn't say nikon lagged *for her*, but that nikon can't possibly
    contnue to lag so badly behind canon. in reality, sales of under $1k
    nikon cameras have been very strong. nikon isn't lagging.
    nospam, Jul 2, 2008
    #18
  19. In message news:Lmsak.674$, SMS
    <> done wrote:

    > I saw the Nikon D700 announcement, but I wonder if Nikon will come up
    > with some consumer models in the sub-$1000 (preferably sub-$800) price
    > range that compete with Canon's offerings in that range. They now have
    > nothing between the D80 and the D300.


    The D200 is on Nikon's website as a current model. It is "between the D80
    and the D300".
    Alotta Fagina, Jul 2, 2008
    #19
  20. SMS

    SMS Guest

    nospam wrote:
    > In article <Zhyak.6674$>, SMS
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >> Matt Ion wrote:
    >>
    >>> The XSi actually fits ALL of her criteria quite nicely. The 40D is
    >>> heavier than her "required" weight, and I would expect any successor to
    >>> be heavier as well, and definitely over the budget. In fact, using the
    >>> comparison chart at www.dpreview.com, the XSi is the ONLY model under
    >>> $1000 that matches all her criteria.

    >> Yes, this is true. But I think she'll wait and see how the D80 successor
    >> looks before making a decision. Nikon can't possibly continue to lag so
    >> badly behind Canon in the sub-$1000 segment, and the rumors about a 90D
    >> probably have a lot of substance.

    >
    > lag so badly? that's just your anti-nikon bias.


    Hey, I'm the one that told her not to rush out and get the XSi even
    though it met all of her criteria, and to wait to see what Nikon comes
    out with.

    > the d40/d40x/d60/d80
    > are very good cameras, and nikon sales in that segment reflect that,
    > gaining market share over canon.


    Yes some of those are good. I'd steer clear of the D40/D40x, but nothing
    wrong with the D60 or D80, they just aren't as good as what Canon has in
    those segments.

    Yes, Nikon is gaining market share, though they still lag behind Canon
    in D-SLR sales.
    SMS, Jul 2, 2008
    #20
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