Ansel Adams negative's story heats up

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by RichA, Jul 29, 2010.

  1. RichA

    RichA Guest

    RichA, Jul 29, 2010
    #1
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  2. RichA

    otter Guest

    On Jul 28, 6:58 pm, RichA <> wrote:
    > http://www.cnn.com/2010/SHOWBIZ/celebrity.news.gossip/07/28/ansel.ada...
    >
    > "I have sent people to prison for the rest of their lives for far less
    > evidence than I have seen in this case," said evidence and burden of
    > proof expert Manny Medrano, who was hired by Norsigian to help
    > authenticate the plates. "In my view, those photographs were done by
    > Ansel Adams."


    What do you think is provocative about this? He is saying the plates
    are genuine.
     
    otter, Jul 29, 2010
    #2
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  3. RichA

    Sysop Guest

    "Gary Edstrom" <> wrote in message
    news:eek:...
    > On Wed, 28 Jul 2010 16:58:44 -0700 (PDT), RichA <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >>http://www.cnn.com/2010/SHOWBIZ/cel...el.adams.negative.dispute/index.html?iref=NS1
    >>
    >>"I have sent people to prison for the rest of their lives for far less
    >>evidence than I have seen in this case," said evidence and burden of
    >>proof expert Manny Medrano, who was hired by Norsigian to help
    >>authenticate the plates. "In my view, those photographs were done by
    >>Ansel Adams."

    >
    > What do you want to bet that if they are indeed genuine, the Ansel Adams
    > heirs will sue to get them back as stolen property?
    >

    When were they "stolen" and wouldn't the Statute of Limitations apply?
     
    Sysop, Jul 29, 2010
    #3
  4. RichA

    HocusPocus Guest

    On Wed, 28 Jul 2010 19:13:53 -0700, Gary Edstrom <>
    wrote:

    >On Wed, 28 Jul 2010 16:58:44 -0700 (PDT), RichA <>
    >wrote:
    >
    >>http://www.cnn.com/2010/SHOWBIZ/cel...el.adams.negative.dispute/index.html?iref=NS1
    >>
    >>"I have sent people to prison for the rest of their lives for far less
    >>evidence than I have seen in this case," said evidence and burden of
    >>proof expert Manny Medrano, who was hired by Norsigian to help
    >>authenticate the plates. "In my view, those photographs were done by
    >>Ansel Adams."

    >
    >What do you want to bet that if they are indeed genuine, the Ansel Adams
    >heirs will sue to get them back as stolen property?


    Gary, in that clip his grandson says they're not genuine. The handwriting
    is not his grandmother's and the spelling mistakes don't fit with her
    spending lots of time at Yosemite. I must be missing something. How will
    they be confirmed as genuine? It IS fascinating stuff! :)
     
    HocusPocus, Jul 29, 2010
    #4
  5. RichA

    otter Guest

    On Jul 28, 7:21 pm, otter <> wrote:
    > On Jul 28, 6:58 pm, RichA <> wrote:
    >
    > >http://www.cnn.com/2010/SHOWBIZ/celebrity.news.gossip/07/28/ansel.ada...

    >
    > > "I have sent people to prison for the rest of their lives for far less
    > > evidence than I have seen in this case," said evidence and burden of
    > > proof expert Manny Medrano, who was hired by Norsigian to help
    > > authenticate the plates. "In my view, those photographs were done by
    > > Ansel Adams."

    >
    > What do you think is provocative about this?  He is saying the plates
    > are genuine.


    I'd seen that quote in previous stories, but didn't follow this link.
    Yeah, I guess things are heating up...
     
    otter, Jul 29, 2010
    #5
  6. RichA

    MC Guest

    HocusPocus wrote:

    > On Wed, 28 Jul 2010 19:13:53 -0700, Gary Edstrom
    > <> wrote:
    >
    > > On Wed, 28 Jul 2010 16:58:44 -0700 (PDT), RichA
    > > <> wrote:
    > >
    > > >

    http://www.cnn.com/2010/SHOWBIZ/cel...el.adams.negative.dispute/index.html?iref=NS1
    > > >
    > > > "I have sent people to prison for the rest of their lives for far
    > > > less evidence than I have seen in this case," said evidence and
    > > > burden of proof expert Manny Medrano, who was hired by Norsigian
    > > > to help authenticate the plates. "In my view, those photographs
    > > > were done by Ansel Adams."

    > >
    > > What do you want to bet that if they are indeed genuine, the Ansel
    > > Adams heirs will sue to get them back as stolen property?

    >
    > Gary, in that clip his grandson says they're not genuine. The
    > handwriting is not his grandmother's and the spelling mistakes don't
    > fit with her spending lots of time at Yosemite. I must be missing
    > something. How will they be confirmed as genuine? It IS fascinating
    > stuff! :)


    The whole thing stinks of jealousy. The Adams clan don't like the fact
    that this "stranger" has become very rich on the back of their famous
    relative.

    MC
     
    MC, Jul 29, 2010
    #6
  7. Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:


    >The true value of these negatives, if proven to be genuine, lies in
    >what they are, and who created them, not any pseudo "Adams" prints
    >which might be produced from them.


    It is not clear to me that the owner of those negatives has the right to sell
    prints from them. Ownership of the negatives is not necessarily the ownership
    of the copyright. -- Doug
     
    Douglas Johnson, Jul 29, 2010
    #7
  8. RichA

    Bruce Guest

    On Thu, 29 Jul 2010 14:54:50 -0700, Savageduck
    <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
    >On 2010-07-29 14:50:41 -0700, Doug McDonald
    ><> said:
    >>
    >> The Adams estate has already said they are not Adams' negatives.
    >> So THEY can't prevent sale by copyright. They might try to prevent them
    >> as being labeled as "from Ansel Adams's negatives". But it would
    >> be hard to stop "attributed to" Adams.
    >>
    >> Doug McDonald

    >
    >...and that would mean they could never have the asking price of
    >genuine Adams prints, which they can never be.



    Perhaps they were taken by "Uncle Earl"? In which case, are they
    worth even $1 million?

    http://preview.tinyurl.com/3999ovl
    or:
    http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/living/2010/07/29/ansel.adams.photos.uncle.earl.ktvu
     
    Bruce, Jul 30, 2010
    #8
  9. Savageduck wrote:
    > On 2010-07-29 14:42:26 -0700, Douglas Johnson <> said:
    >
    >> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>> The true value of these negatives, if proven to be genuine, lies in
    >>> what they are, and who created them, not any pseudo "Adams" prints
    >>> which might be produced from them.

    >>
    >> It is not clear to me that the owner of those negatives has the right
    >> to sell
    >> prints from them. Ownership of the negatives is not necessarily the
    >> ownership
    >> of the copyright. -- Doug

    >
    > This is somewhat like finding working sketches of "The Nightwatch" or Da
    > Vinci's "Adoration of The Magi".


    Except these are plates that AA chose to not print, and not part of an
    integral process/work flow as DaVinci's.

    --
    John McWilliams
     
    John McWilliams, Jul 30, 2010
    #9
  10. RichA

    HocusPocus Guest

    On Thu, 29 Jul 2010 16:07:00 GMT, "MC" <> wrote:

    >HocusPocus wrote:
    >
    >> On Wed, 28 Jul 2010 19:13:53 -0700, Gary Edstrom
    >> <> wrote:
    >>
    >> > On Wed, 28 Jul 2010 16:58:44 -0700 (PDT), RichA
    >> > <> wrote:
    >> >
    >> > >

    >http://www.cnn.com/2010/SHOWBIZ/cel...el.adams.negative.dispute/index.html?iref=NS1
    >> > >
    >> > > "I have sent people to prison for the rest of their lives for far
    >> > > less evidence than I have seen in this case," said evidence and
    >> > > burden of proof expert Manny Medrano, who was hired by Norsigian
    >> > > to help authenticate the plates. "In my view, those photographs
    >> > > were done by Ansel Adams."
    >> >
    >> > What do you want to bet that if they are indeed genuine, the Ansel
    >> > Adams heirs will sue to get them back as stolen property?

    >>
    >> Gary, in that clip his grandson says they're not genuine. The
    >> handwriting is not his grandmother's and the spelling mistakes don't
    >> fit with her spending lots of time at Yosemite. I must be missing
    >> something. How will they be confirmed as genuine? It IS fascinating
    >> stuff! :)

    >
    >The whole thing stinks of jealousy. The Adams clan don't like the fact
    >that this "stranger" has become very rich on the back of their famous
    >relative.
    >
    >MC

    Reverse psychology would say the relatives should claim they are genuine,
    let the guy make money off them because then, based on the valuation of
    these 'new' negatives, the family holdings will be worth multimillions more
    than today. Win, Win. No?
     
    HocusPocus, Jul 31, 2010
    #10
  11. RichA

    John A. Guest

    On 31 Jul 2010 02:47:35 -0000, HocusPocus <>
    wrote:

    >On Thu, 29 Jul 2010 16:07:00 GMT, "MC" <> wrote:
    >
    >>HocusPocus wrote:
    >>
    >>> On Wed, 28 Jul 2010 19:13:53 -0700, Gary Edstrom
    >>> <> wrote:
    >>>
    >>> > On Wed, 28 Jul 2010 16:58:44 -0700 (PDT), RichA
    >>> > <> wrote:
    >>> >
    >>> > >

    >>http://www.cnn.com/2010/SHOWBIZ/cel...el.adams.negative.dispute/index.html?iref=NS1
    >>> > >
    >>> > > "I have sent people to prison for the rest of their lives for far
    >>> > > less evidence than I have seen in this case," said evidence and
    >>> > > burden of proof expert Manny Medrano, who was hired by Norsigian
    >>> > > to help authenticate the plates. "In my view, those photographs
    >>> > > were done by Ansel Adams."
    >>> >
    >>> > What do you want to bet that if they are indeed genuine, the Ansel
    >>> > Adams heirs will sue to get them back as stolen property?
    >>>
    >>> Gary, in that clip his grandson says they're not genuine. The
    >>> handwriting is not his grandmother's and the spelling mistakes don't
    >>> fit with her spending lots of time at Yosemite. I must be missing
    >>> something. How will they be confirmed as genuine? It IS fascinating
    >>> stuff! :)

    >>
    >>The whole thing stinks of jealousy. The Adams clan don't like the fact
    >>that this "stranger" has become very rich on the back of their famous
    >>relative.
    >>
    >>MC

    >Reverse psychology would say the relatives should claim they are genuine,
    >let the guy make money off them because then, based on the valuation of
    >these 'new' negatives, the family holdings will be worth multimillions more
    >than today. Win, Win. No?


    No. Lose-lose.

    Even if they were authentic, the estate would own the copyright but
    wouldn't possess the negatives so they can't do anything to profit
    from them. And the guy who lucked into buying them would own the
    negatives but not have the copyright so he's in the same boat (whether
    he realizes it or not.)

    I'd say the estate's best strategy is to drag the price down by
    claiming they're not authentic, buy them for cheap via a proxy bidder,
    let it be known then that (oops!) turns out they were authentic after
    all, then "buy" them from the proxy for an "undisclosed sum". Win for
    the estate.

    The guy with the negs has no such strategy available to him, unless
    you can think of some way for him to get hold of the Adams copyrights.
     
    John A., Jul 31, 2010
    #11
  12. RichA

    HocusPocus Guest

    On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 23:16:54 -0400, John A. <> wrote:

    >On 31 Jul 2010 02:47:35 -0000, HocusPocus <>
    >wrote:
    >
    >>On Thu, 29 Jul 2010 16:07:00 GMT, "MC" <> wrote:
    >>
    >>>HocusPocus wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> On Wed, 28 Jul 2010 19:13:53 -0700, Gary Edstrom
    >>>> <> wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>> > On Wed, 28 Jul 2010 16:58:44 -0700 (PDT), RichA
    >>>> > <> wrote:
    >>>> >
    >>>> > >
    >>>http://www.cnn.com/2010/SHOWBIZ/cel...el.adams.negative.dispute/index.html?iref=NS1
    >>>> > >
    >>>> > > "I have sent people to prison for the rest of their lives for far
    >>>> > > less evidence than I have seen in this case," said evidence and
    >>>> > > burden of proof expert Manny Medrano, who was hired by Norsigian
    >>>> > > to help authenticate the plates. "In my view, those photographs
    >>>> > > were done by Ansel Adams."
    >>>> >
    >>>> > What do you want to bet that if they are indeed genuine, the Ansel
    >>>> > Adams heirs will sue to get them back as stolen property?
    >>>>
    >>>> Gary, in that clip his grandson says they're not genuine. The
    >>>> handwriting is not his grandmother's and the spelling mistakes don't
    >>>> fit with her spending lots of time at Yosemite. I must be missing
    >>>> something. How will they be confirmed as genuine? It IS fascinating
    >>>> stuff! :)
    >>>
    >>>The whole thing stinks of jealousy. The Adams clan don't like the fact
    >>>that this "stranger" has become very rich on the back of their famous
    >>>relative.
    >>>
    >>>MC

    >>Reverse psychology would say the relatives should claim they are genuine,
    >>let the guy make money off them because then, based on the valuation of
    >>these 'new' negatives, the family holdings will be worth multimillions more
    >>than today. Win, Win. No?

    >
    >No. Lose-lose.
    >
    >Even if they were authentic, the estate would own the copyright but
    >wouldn't possess the negatives so they can't do anything to profit
    >from them. And the guy who lucked into buying them would own the
    >negatives but not have the copyright so he's in the same boat (whether
    >he realizes it or not.)
    >
    >I'd say the estate's best strategy is to drag the price down by
    >claiming they're not authentic, buy them for cheap via a proxy bidder,
    >let it be known then that (oops!) turns out they were authentic after
    >all, then "buy" them from the proxy for an "undisclosed sum". Win for
    >the estate.
    >
    >The guy with the negs has no such strategy available to him, unless
    >you can think of some way for him to get hold of the Adams copyrights.


    Yeah right. Bit of a bummer all round. Fascinating world we live in! :)
     
    HocusPocus, Jul 31, 2010
    #12
  13. RichA

    HocusPocus Guest

    On Sat, 31 Jul 2010 08:50:25 -0500, Allen <> wrote:

    >HocusPocus wrote:
    >> On Thu, 29 Jul 2010 16:07:00 GMT, "MC" <> wrote:
    >>
    >>> HocusPocus wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> On Wed, 28 Jul 2010 19:13:53 -0700, Gary Edstrom
    >>>> <> wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> On Wed, 28 Jul 2010 16:58:44 -0700 (PDT), RichA
    >>>>> <> wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>> http://www.cnn.com/2010/SHOWBIZ/cel...el.adams.negative.dispute/index.html?iref=NS1
    >>>>>> "I have sent people to prison for the rest of their lives for far
    >>>>>> less evidence than I have seen in this case," said evidence and
    >>>>>> burden of proof expert Manny Medrano, who was hired by Norsigian
    >>>>>> to help authenticate the plates. "In my view, those photographs
    >>>>>> were done by Ansel Adams."
    >>>>> What do you want to bet that if they are indeed genuine, the Ansel
    >>>>> Adams heirs will sue to get them back as stolen property?
    >>>> Gary, in that clip his grandson says they're not genuine. The
    >>>> handwriting is not his grandmother's and the spelling mistakes don't
    >>>> fit with her spending lots of time at Yosemite. I must be missing
    >>>> something. How will they be confirmed as genuine? It IS fascinating
    >>>> stuff! :)
    >>> The whole thing stinks of jealousy. The Adams clan don't like the fact
    >>> that this "stranger" has become very rich on the back of their famous
    >>> relative.
    >>>
    >>> MC

    >> Reverse psychology would say the relatives should claim they are genuine,
    >> let the guy make money off them because then, based on the valuation of
    >> these 'new' negatives, the family holdings will be worth multimillions more
    >> than today. Win, Win. No?
    >>
    >>
    >>

    >So you are saying that increasing the supply of something will drive up
    >the price? Let's say that someone should discover that the entire Rocky
    >Mountains are pure covered by a thin layer of stone; would this drive
    >the price of gold up even higher? Of course not--it would push it down
    >to something like the price of iron.
    >Allen


    I was saying the value of the already held negs would go up if their worth
    was based on the inflated value of of the 'suspect' negs.
     
    HocusPocus, Jul 31, 2010
    #13
  14. RichA

    Bruce Guest

    Bruce, Jul 31, 2010
    #14
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