Another usless court case against Microsoft fails....

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by Max Burke, Apr 2, 2005.

  1. Max Burke

    Max Burke Guest

    ....to do what it's supposed to do, and proves yet again that you cant create
    a competitive market place in courtroom.

    <quote>
    Dell, HP: Sorry, EU, But XP N Stands for Non-starter
    It will still sell more copies than OS X Tiger, but what a waste of time.
    This week, representatives of Dell and HP, the world's two largest PC
    makers, downplayed the effects of the European Union's (EU's) requirement
    that Microsoft ship special N versions of XP that don't include Windows
    Media Player (WMP). Dell says it won't offer the products on its PCs.
    HP said that it will offer XP Home Edition N and XP Professional Edition N
    but that it expects little demand from customers. HP noted that because the
    N versions cost the same as the XP versions that include WMP, consumers have
    little incentive to consider the products. Well, duh.
    <end quote>

    --

    Replace the obvious with paradise.net to email me
    Found Images
    http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/~mlvburke
     
    Max Burke, Apr 2, 2005
    #1
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  2. Re: Another useless court case against Microsoft fails....

    In article <>, "Max Burke" <>
    wrote:

    >...to do what it's supposed to do, and proves yet again that you cant create
    >a competitive market place in [a] courtroom.
    >
    ><quote>
    >Dell, HP: Sorry, EU, But XP N Stands for Non-starter
    >It will still sell more copies than OS X Tiger, but what a waste of time.
    >This week, representatives of Dell and HP, the world's two largest PC
    >makers, downplayed the effects of the European Union's (EU's) requirement
    >that Microsoft ship special N versions of XP that don't include Windows
    >Media Player (WMP). Dell says it won't offer the products on its PCs.
    >HP said that it will offer XP Home Edition N and XP Professional Edition N
    >but that it expects little demand from customers. HP noted that because the
    >N versions cost the same as the XP versions that include WMP, consumers have
    >little incentive to consider the products. Well, duh.
    ><end quote>


    If Microsoft is seen as trying to subvert the European Commission
    judgement, then that just gives the Commission an excuse to slap it
    around some more. If it wants the pain to stop, then it needs to be more
    cooperative.

    The old US of A doesn't run the world any more (if indeed it ever did).
    We live in an international world, where "globalization" doesn't mean
    that Country A imposes its rules on Country B, it means that we have to
    take into consideration the rules of both Country A and Country B.
     
    Lawrence D¹Oliveiro, Apr 2, 2005
    #2
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  3. Max Burke

    Peter Guest

    Re: Another useless court case against Microsoft fails....

    Lawrence D¹Oliveiro wrote:
    > The old US of A doesn't run the world any more (if indeed it ever did).
    > We live in an international world, where "globalization" doesn't mean
    > that Country A imposes its rules on Country B, it means that we have to
    > take into consideration the rules of both Country A and Country B.


    Who said they don't rule the world? It worked on Iraq, didn't it?

    By military or political means, USA wants to dominate. (eg "free" trade
    agreement with Aust)


    Peter
     
    Peter, Apr 2, 2005
    #3
  4. Max Burke

    BILL Guest

    Re: Another useless court case against Microsoft fails....

    On Sat, 02 Apr 2005 19:53:13 +1200, Lawrence D¹Oliveiro
    <_zealand> wrote:

    >In article <>, "Max Burke" <>
    >wrote:
    >
    >>...to do what it's supposed to do, and proves yet again that you cant create
    >>a competitive market place in [a] courtroom.
    >>
    >><quote>
    >>Dell, HP: Sorry, EU, But XP N Stands for Non-starter
    >>It will still sell more copies than OS X Tiger, but what a waste of time.
    >>This week, representatives of Dell and HP, the world's two largest PC
    >>makers, downplayed the effects of the European Union's (EU's) requirement
    >>that Microsoft ship special N versions of XP that don't include Windows
    >>Media Player (WMP). Dell says it won't offer the products on its PCs.
    >>HP said that it will offer XP Home Edition N and XP Professional Edition N
    >>but that it expects little demand from customers. HP noted that because the
    >>N versions cost the same as the XP versions that include WMP, consumers have
    >>little incentive to consider the products. Well, duh.
    >><end quote>

    >
    >If Microsoft is seen as trying to subvert the European Commission
    >judgement, then that just gives the Commission an excuse to slap it
    >around some more. If it wants the pain to stop, then it needs to be more
    >cooperative.
    >
    >The old US of A doesn't run the world any more (if indeed it ever did).
    >We live in an international world, where "globalization" doesn't mean
    >that Country A imposes its rules on Country B, it means that we have to
    >take into consideration the rules of both Country A and Country B.




    THE US does Run the world, take the blinkers off.
     
    BILL, Apr 2, 2005
    #4
  5. Re: Another useless court case against Microsoft fails....

    In article <>,
    Peter <> wrote:

    >Lawrence D¹Oliveiro wrote:
    >> The old US of A doesn't run the world any more (if indeed it ever did).
    >> We live in an international world, where "globalization" doesn't mean
    >> that Country A imposes its rules on Country B, it means that we have to
    >> take into consideration the rules of both Country A and Country B.

    >
    >Who said they don't rule the world? It worked on Iraq, didn't it?


    Iraq has tied up essentially the entire operational strength of the US
    Army. They've got nothing left over to mount a large operation anywhere
    else. They're even pulling troops out of Afghanistan, leaving that job
    unfinished, to send to Iraq.

    I will give the US credit for organizing elections in Iraq. But so far
    those elections haven't amounted to much...

    >By military or political means, USA wants to dominate. (eg "free" trade
    >agreement with Aust)


    The only aspect of their strength that remains unrivalled is military.
    Both their political and economic strength is waning.

    Political: look at their rabid opposition to the International Criminal
    Court. They kept seeking exemptions from its jurisdiction over their
    troops, until the scandal over Abu Ghreib totally destroyed any moral
    justification they may have had for such a stand. And just a couple of
    days ago, they conceded that the ICC is the right place to prosecute
    those committing atrocities in Darfur. So US opposition to the Court
    gets knocked back bit by bit. And so we move, baby step by baby step,
    towards a world justice system that is multilateral and
    internationalist, not US-dominated.

    Economic: ten years ago, they accounted for half the world PC market.
    That is now down to less than one-third. That means that, if US-based
    companies like Microsoft want to do business on the world stage, they
    will have to pay more and more attention to how things are done in other
    countries, rather than simply trying to impose a USian way of doing
    things on everybody.

    Sure, some countries (such as Australia) still see the US as the centre
    of their world. But we here in NZ do not. We, not the Australians, are
    the ones who are forward-looking.
     
    Lawrence D¹Oliveiro, Apr 2, 2005
    #5
  6. Max Burke

    steve Guest

    Max Burke wrote:
    > ...to do what it's supposed to do, and proves yet again that you cant
    > create a competitive market place in courtroom.


    Just because it hasn't been done right doesn't mean it can't be done.

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    steve, Apr 3, 2005
    #6
  7. Max Burke

    steve Guest

    Re: Another useless court case against Microsoft fails....

    Peter wrote:
    > Lawrence D¹Oliveiro wrote:
    >
    >>The old US of A doesn't run the world any more (if indeed it ever did).
    >>We live in an international world, where "globalization" doesn't mean
    >>that Country A imposes its rules on Country B, it means that we have to
    >>take into consideration the rules of both Country A and Country B.

    >
    > Who said they don't rule the world? It worked on Iraq, didn't it?


    Has it? Iraq certtainly doesn't look settled. If anything, the US
    invaded the place only to facilitate the creation of the Islamic
    Republic of Iraq (or Rump-Iraq, if the Sunnis and Kurds split).

    > By military or political means, USA wants to dominate. (eg "free" trade
    > agreement with Aust)
    >
    > Peter


    That was John Howard making bad deals so he could claim to have done
    well for Australia.

    That deal wasn't imposed on Aussie......Howard BEGGED to be raped.


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    steve, Apr 3, 2005
    #7
  8. In article <424f92ad$1_2@127.0.0.1>,
    steve <> wrote:

    >Max Burke wrote:
    >> ...to do what it's supposed to do, and proves yet again that you cant
    >> create a competitive market place in courtroom.

    >
    >Just because it hasn't been done right doesn't mean it can't be done.


    During the 1990s I would have agreed that it was a waste of time trying
    to pursue Microsoft through the courts--the industry was moving so fast
    that the verdicts of judges like Jackson and Kotar-Kotelly were
    basically obsolete by the time they were delivered.

    But nowadays I'm not so sure. The pace of innovation has slackened off a
    bit. So it may indeed be the time to start introducing some regulation
    and get rid of the Wild West element...
     
    Lawrence D¹Oliveiro, Apr 3, 2005
    #8
  9. Max Burke

    Peter Guest

    Re: Another useless court case against Microsoft fails....

    steve wrote:
    > Peter wrote:
    >> Who said they don't rule the world? It worked on Iraq, didn't it?

    >
    > Has it? Iraq certtainly doesn't look settled. If anything, the US
    > invaded the place only to facilitate the creation of the Islamic
    > Republic of Iraq (or Rump-Iraq, if the Sunnis and Kurds split).


    USA acted unilaterally, against the express wishes of the UN and many other
    countries. Whether you think USA did the right thing or not, they behaved
    like they rule the world.
    The botched military operations, unethical actions and abuse of innocent
    civilians are a separate issue.

    > That was John Howard making bad deals so he could claim to have done
    > well for Australia.
    >
    > That deal wasn't imposed on Aussie......Howard BEGGED to be raped.


    It is still an example where USA think they rule the world, IMHO.


    Peter
     
    Peter, Apr 3, 2005
    #9
  10. Max Burke

    Peter Guest

    Lawrence D¹Oliveiro wrote:
    > During the 1990s I would have agreed that it was a waste of time trying
    > to pursue Microsoft through the courts--the industry was moving so fast
    > that the verdicts of judges like Jackson and Kotar-Kotelly were
    > basically obsolete by the time they were delivered.
    >
    > But nowadays I'm not so sure. The pace of innovation has slackened off a
    > bit. So it may indeed be the time to start introducing some regulation
    > and get rid of the Wild West element...


    A while back (lost the link now), I read an article along the lines that
    such long legal battles favoured Microsoft. Because the industry is moving
    fast, by the time they've been through years of court actions, Microsoft
    has already won the battle in the markets so any legal decision is
    irrelevant. Even if MS cops a $billion fine, they are still better off
    because market dominance is worth even more.


    Peter
     
    Peter, Apr 3, 2005
    #10
  11. Re: Another useless court case against Microsoft fails....

    Lawrence D¹Oliveiro wrote:
    > If Microsoft is seen as trying to subvert the European Commission
    > judgement, then that just gives the Commission an excuse to slap it
    > around some more. If it wants the pain to stop, then it needs to be more
    > cooperative.


    well they had to take man hours to rip it out of there, so in theory it
    should cost more.
     
    Dave - Dave.net.nz, Apr 3, 2005
    #11
  12. Max Burke

    thing Guest

    Re: Another useless court case against Microsoft fails....

    Lawrence D¹Oliveiro wrote:

    8><--

    > The old US of A doesn't run the world any more (if indeed it ever did).
    > We live in an international world, where "globalization" doesn't mean
    > that Country A imposes its rules on Country B, it means that we have to
    > take into consideration the rules of both Country A and Country B.



    Sadly not true, various treaties say when ever there is a law in one
    country, that law becomes valid for the others. Hence the patent
    struggle going on in the EU at present.

    regards

    Thing
     
    thing, Apr 4, 2005
    #12
  13. Max Burke

    steve Guest

    Lawrence D¹Oliveiro wrote:
    > In article <424f92ad$1_2@127.0.0.1>,
    > steve <> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>Max Burke wrote:
    >>
    >>>...to do what it's supposed to do, and proves yet again that you cant
    >>>create a competitive market place in courtroom.

    >>
    >>Just because it hasn't been done right doesn't mean it can't be done.

    >
    >
    > During the 1990s I would have agreed that it was a waste of time trying
    > to pursue Microsoft through the courts--the industry was moving so fast
    > that the verdicts of judges like Jackson and Kotar-Kotelly were
    > basically obsolete by the time they were delivered.
    >
    > But nowadays I'm not so sure. The pace of innovation has slackened off a
    > bit. So it may indeed be the time to start introducing some regulation
    > and get rid of the Wild West element...


    Breaking up Microsoft would have changed things quite a bit.....for the
    better.


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    http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
    ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
     
    steve, Apr 4, 2005
    #13
  14. Re: Another useless court case against Microsoft fails....

    In article <>,
    "Dave - Dave.net.nz" <> wrote:

    >Lawrence D¹Oliveiro wrote:
    >> If Microsoft is seen as trying to subvert the European Commission
    >> judgement, then that just gives the Commission an excuse to slap it
    >> around some more. If it wants the pain to stop, then it needs to be more
    >> cooperative.

    >
    >well they had to take man hours to rip it out of there, so in theory it
    >should cost more.


    If you get slapped with a legal penalty, you're not allowed to pass the
    cost of that penalty on to your victims.
     
    Lawrence D¹Oliveiro, Apr 4, 2005
    #14
  15. Re: Another useless court case against Microsoft fails....

    In article <>,
    Peter <> wrote:

    >Lawrence D¹Oliveiro wrote:
    >> During the 1990s I would have agreed that it was a waste of time trying
    >> to pursue Microsoft through the courts--the industry was moving so fast
    >> that the verdicts of judges like Jackson and Kotar-Kotelly were
    >> basically obsolete by the time they were delivered.
    >>
    >> But nowadays I'm not so sure. The pace of innovation has slackened off a
    >> bit. So it may indeed be the time to start introducing some regulation
    >> and get rid of the Wild West element...

    >
    >A while back (lost the link now), I read an article along the lines that
    >such long legal battles favoured Microsoft. Because the industry is moving
    >fast, by the time they've been through years of court actions, Microsoft
    >has already won the battle in the markets so any legal decision is
    >irrelevant. Even if MS cops a $billion fine, they are still better off
    >because market dominance is worth even more.


    Cetainly true back in the 1990s. But nowadays I think a long court case
    can really hurt Microsoft. It's already looking like it's going to be a
    long, multiyear campaign to switch its users from XP to whatever the
    official product name will be for Longhorn/Shorthorn. That's assuming it
    does eventually ship...
     
    Lawrence D¹Oliveiro, Apr 4, 2005
    #15
  16. Re: Another useless court case against Microsoft fails....

    Lawrence D¹Oliveiro wrote:
    >>>If Microsoft is seen as trying to subvert the European Commission
    >>>judgement, then that just gives the Commission an excuse to slap it
    >>>around some more. If it wants the pain to stop, then it needs to be more
    >>>cooperative.


    >>well they had to take man hours to rip it out of there, so in theory it
    >>should cost more.


    > If you get slapped with a legal penalty, you're not allowed to pass the
    > cost of that penalty on to your victims.


    surely you should be allowed to account for man hours?
     
    Dave - Dave.net.nz, Apr 4, 2005
    #16
  17. Re: Another useless court case against Microsoft fails....

    In article <>,
    "Dave - Dave.net.nz" <> wrote:

    >Lawrence D¹Oliveiro wrote:
    >>>>If Microsoft is seen as trying to subvert the European Commission
    >>>>judgement, then that just gives the Commission an excuse to slap it
    >>>>around some more. If it wants the pain to stop, then it needs to be more
    >>>>cooperative.

    >
    >>>well they had to take man hours to rip it out of there, so in theory it
    >>>should cost more.

    >
    >> If you get slapped with a legal penalty, you're not allowed to pass the
    >> cost of that penalty on to your victims.

    >
    >surely you should be allowed to account for man hours?


    The basic principle is "the criminal must not be allowed to profit from
    the crime".
     
    Lawrence D¹Oliveiro, Apr 5, 2005
    #17
  18. Max Burke

    Max Burke Guest

    Re: Another useless court case against Microsoft fails....

    > Lawrence D¹Oliveiro scribbled:

    >> Dave - Dave.net.nz" <> wrote:


    > If Microsoft is seen as trying to subvert the European Commission
    > judgement, then that just gives the Commission an excuse to slap
    > it around some more. If it wants the pain to stop, then it needs
    > to be more cooperative.


    >> well they had to take man hours to rip it out of there, so in
    >> theory it should cost more.


    > If you get slapped with a legal penalty, you're not allowed to pass
    > the cost of that penalty on to your victims.


    >> surely you should be allowed to account for man hours?


    > The basic principle is "the criminal must not be allowed to profit
    > from the crime".


    How EXACTLY does Microsoft make a profit (any profit) from WMP if it's
    included or NOT included in the OS?

    --

    Replace the obvious with paradise.net to email me
    Found Images
    http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/~mlvburke
     
    Max Burke, Apr 5, 2005
    #18
  19. Re: Another useless court case against Microsoft fails....

    In article <42524f19$>,
    "Max Burke" <> wrote:

    >> Lawrence D¹Oliveiro scribbled:

    >
    >>> Dave - Dave.net.nz" <> wrote:

    >
    >> If Microsoft is seen as trying to subvert the European Commission
    >> judgement, then that just gives the Commission an excuse to slap
    >> it around some more. If it wants the pain to stop, then it needs
    >> to be more cooperative.

    >
    >>> well they had to take man hours to rip it out of there, so in
    >>> theory it should cost more.

    >
    >> If you get slapped with a legal penalty, you're not allowed to pass
    >> the cost of that penalty on to your victims.

    >
    >>> surely you should be allowed to account for man hours?

    >
    >> The basic principle is "the criminal must not be allowed to profit
    >> from the crime".

    >
    >How EXACTLY does Microsoft make a profit (any profit) from WMP if it's
    >included or NOT included in the OS?


    It's the old principle: "give away the razor, sell the razorblades".
    Microsoft stands to make huge profits from licensing the Windows Media
    format and codecs, server and authoring software, the works. Bundling
    the player with Windows is a guaranteed way of creating an instant
    market for Windows Media products, to the detriment of its competitors.
     
    Lawrence D¹Oliveiro, Apr 5, 2005
    #19
  20. Re: Another useless court case against Microsoft fails....

    Hi there,

    Lawrence D¹Oliveiro wrote:
    > In article <42524f19$>,
    > "Max Burke" <> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>>Lawrence D¹Oliveiro scribbled:

    >>
    >>>>Dave - Dave.net.nz" <> wrote:

    >>
    >>>If Microsoft is seen as trying to subvert the European Commission
    >>>judgement, then that just gives the Commission an excuse to slap
    >>>it around some more. If it wants the pain to stop, then it needs
    >>>to be more cooperative.

    >>
    >>>>well they had to take man hours to rip it out of there, so in
    >>>>theory it should cost more.

    >>
    >>>If you get slapped with a legal penalty, you're not allowed to pass
    >>>the cost of that penalty on to your victims.

    >>
    >>>>surely you should be allowed to account for man hours?

    >>
    >>>The basic principle is "the criminal must not be allowed to profit
    >>>from the crime".

    >>
    >>How EXACTLY does Microsoft make a profit (any profit) from WMP if it's
    >>included or NOT included in the OS?

    >
    >
    > It's the old principle: "give away the razor, sell the razorblades".
    > Microsoft stands to make huge profits from licensing the Windows Media
    > format and codecs, server and authoring software, the works. Bundling
    > the player with Windows is a guaranteed way of creating an instant
    > market for Windows Media products, to the detriment of its competitors.


    You've hit it on the head Lawrence. Shame Max's cranial ability is not
    up to understanding of that level. Acceptance of truth only comes with
    understanding of it...

    --
    Kind regards,

    Chris Wilkinson, Brisbane, Australia.
    Anyone wishing to email me directly can remove the obvious
    spamblocker, and replace it with t p g <dot> c o m <dot> a u

    Software patents are killing our freedom, STOP THEM NOW!
    http://swpat.ffii.org/ http://nosoftwarepatents.com/
     
    Chris Wilkinson, Apr 6, 2005
    #20
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