anonymous proxies

Discussion in 'Computer Security' started by Christo, Nov 14, 2004.

  1. Christo

    Christo Guest

    not to quizzed up on this but have tried one free anonymous proxy off a
    website

    internet explorer > connections > Setttings > Use proxy server for this
    connection

    input the relevant IP address into the address field and the relevant port
    (80) into the port field

    re connected to the net, tried to log onto msn messenger, keep getting
    password incorrect, setup the settings in msn messenger to say i am using a
    proxy and it still did not work

    tried to visit hotmail.com

    page canot be found

    I am using BT broadband ADSL as my isp this shouldnt be a problem should it?

    i should be able to access my msn messenger list and hotmail account through
    a proxy?

    specifically a high anonymity proxy.

    can anyone give me any links to good reliable FREE anonymous proxies
    available.

    Cheers
    Chris

    --
    --
    MSI KT6V
    AMD Athlon XP2600+
    Christo, Nov 14, 2004
    #1
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  2. Christo

    Mike Guest

    Christo wrote:

    > not to quizzed up on this but have tried one free anonymous proxy off a
    > website


    As a side note, how do you know you can trust a random proxy you found?
    I mean, anyone could set up an "anonymous" proxy but for all you know
    they might be an FBI department tracking and logging your every click :)


    --

    ------------------------------------

    Real email to mike. The header email is a spam trap and you will be
    blacklisted,
    submitted to anti-spam sites and proably burn in hell.
    Mike, Nov 15, 2004
    #2
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  3. Christo

    Leythos Guest

    In article <>,
    says...
    >
    > "Mike" <> wrote in message
    > news:cna9lf$ir7$...
    > > Christo wrote:
    > >
    > >> not to quizzed up on this but have tried one free anonymous proxy off a
    > >> website

    > >
    > > As a side note, how do you know you can trust a random proxy you found? I
    > > mean, anyone could set up an "anonymous" proxy but for all you know they
    > > might be an FBI department tracking and logging your every click :)

    >
    > I had thought that, that is why i have stopped using it, and also asked if
    > anyone can tell me any good reliable free anon proxies


    There is no such thing as a ANON Proxy, and the reason is that it's only
    as anonymous that the owner of the service wants it to be. Since you
    have no clue who the owner is, and no idea what they do with your proxy
    data, how could you even think you would be anonymous.

    Asking for stuff like this in Usenet or any public forum is like asking
    the devil himself. Do you really think that a group running a proxy that
    tracks people would have a disclaimer about it?

    What you need to do is to learn to surf smart, learn to not visit places
    you are ashamed of visiting, and learn that nothing you do in public is
    private.



    --
    --

    (Remove 999 to reply to me)
    Leythos, Nov 15, 2004
    #3
  4. Christo

    Christo Guest

    "Mike" <> wrote in message
    news:cna9lf$ir7$...
    > Christo wrote:
    >
    >> not to quizzed up on this but have tried one free anonymous proxy off a
    >> website

    >
    > As a side note, how do you know you can trust a random proxy you found? I
    > mean, anyone could set up an "anonymous" proxy but for all you know they
    > might be an FBI department tracking and logging your every click :)
    >
    >


    I had thought that, that is why i have stopped using it, and also asked if
    anyone can tell me any good reliable free anon proxies
    Christo, Nov 15, 2004
    #4
  5. Christo

    Christo Guest

    "Leythos" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > In article <>,
    > says...
    >>
    >> "Mike" <> wrote in message
    >> news:cna9lf$ir7$...
    >> > Christo wrote:
    >> >
    >> >> not to quizzed up on this but have tried one free anonymous proxy off
    >> >> a
    >> >> website
    >> >
    >> > As a side note, how do you know you can trust a random proxy you found?
    >> > I
    >> > mean, anyone could set up an "anonymous" proxy but for all you know
    >> > they
    >> > might be an FBI department tracking and logging your every click :)

    >>
    >> I had thought that, that is why i have stopped using it, and also asked
    >> if
    >> anyone can tell me any good reliable free anon proxies

    >
    > There is no such thing as a ANON Proxy, and the reason is that it's only
    > as anonymous that the owner of the service wants it to be. Since you
    > have no clue who the owner is, and no idea what they do with your proxy
    > data, how could you even think you would be anonymous.
    >
    > Asking for stuff like this in Usenet or any public forum is like asking
    > the devil himself. Do you really think that a group running a proxy that
    > tracks people would have a disclaimer about it?
    >
    > What you need to do is to learn to surf smart, learn to not visit places
    > you are ashamed of visiting, and learn that nothing you do in public is
    > private.
    >


    sorry im too gullable for my own good, i can see now why it would be a
    stupid thing to trsut anyone but myself
    Christo, Nov 16, 2004
    #5
  6. Christo

    Leythos Guest

    In article <>,
    says...
    > sorry im too gullable for my own good, i can see now why it would be a
    > stupid thing to trsut anyone but myself


    You've almost go it, but I think you are trying to be sarcastic. What
    you have to ask yourself is "How do I know I can trust someone providing
    the proxy". If you can't find compelling reason as to why you trust
    them, then your trust is misplaced.


    --
    --

    (Remove 999 to reply to me)
    Leythos, Nov 16, 2004
    #6
  7. Christo

    nemo outis Guest

    In article <>, Leythos <> wrote:
    >In article <>,
    >says...
    >> sorry im too gullable for my own good, i can see now why it would be a
    >> stupid thing to trsut anyone but myself

    >
    >You've almost go it, but I think you are trying to be sarcastic. What
    >you have to ask yourself is "How do I know I can trust someone providing
    >the proxy". If you can't find compelling reason as to why you trust
    >them, then your trust is misplaced.



    How do I know I am not suffering from multiple-personality
    disorder and one of my other personas is sabotaging me?

    This concept that you can trust yourself is way too lax :)

    Regards,
    nemo outis, Nov 17, 2004
    #7
  8. Leythos wrote:
    >
    > In article <>,
    > says...
    > > sorry im too gullable for my own good, i can see now why it would be a
    > > stupid thing to trsut anyone but myself

    >
    > You've almost go it, but I think you are trying to be sarcastic. What
    > you have to ask yourself is "How do I know I can trust someone providing
    > the proxy". If you can't find compelling reason as to why you trust
    > them, then your trust is misplaced.
    >
    > --
    > --
    >
    > (Remove 999 to reply to me)


    All good advice.... You might like to check out Tor, if you haven't
    tried it already. I have checked it out to the best of my ability. It
    certainly anonymises one's browsing. It's also open source and free.
    AFAICT the only problem from a privacy viewpoint is that anyone can act
    as a server.

    http://www.freehaven.net/tor/
    Terry Grateenshutz, Nov 17, 2004
    #8
  9. Christo

    Leythos Guest

    In article <419b723d$0$1721$>, nothere@
    3er343!!.da says...
    >
    >
    > Leythos wrote:
    > >
    > > In article <>,
    > > says...
    > > > sorry im too gullable for my own good, i can see now why it would be a
    > > > stupid thing to trsut anyone but myself

    > >
    > > You've almost go it, but I think you are trying to be sarcastic. What
    > > you have to ask yourself is "How do I know I can trust someone providing
    > > the proxy". If you can't find compelling reason as to why you trust
    > > them, then your trust is misplaced.
    > >
    > > --
    > > --
    > >
    > > (Remove 999 to reply to me)

    >
    > All good advice.... You might like to check out Tor, if you haven't
    > tried it already. I have checked it out to the best of my ability. It
    > certainly anonymises one's browsing. It's also open source and free.
    > AFAICT the only problem from a privacy viewpoint is that anyone can act
    > as a server.


    First, I don't have a need to hide, so I don't need to be anonymous.

    Second, if you are connecting to anyone else's computer, as the proxy,
    then you have no real expectation of anonymity.

    Sure, you might be able to surf without the destination site knowing
    your source address, but the proxy knows who you are and what you are
    requesting....


    --
    --

    (Remove 999 to reply to me)
    Leythos, Nov 17, 2004
    #9
  10. Leythos wrote:
    >
    > In article <419b723d$0$1721$>, nothere@
    > 3er343!!.da says...
    > >
    > >
    > > Leythos wrote:
    > > >
    > > > In article <>,
    > > > says...
    > > > > sorry im too gullable for my own good, i can see now why it would be a
    > > > > stupid thing to trsut anyone but myself
    > > >
    > > > You've almost go it, but I think you are trying to be sarcastic. What
    > > > you have to ask yourself is "How do I know I can trust someone providing
    > > > the proxy". If you can't find compelling reason as to why you trust
    > > > them, then your trust is misplaced.
    > > >
    > > > --
    > > > --
    > > >
    > > > (Remove 999 to reply to me)

    > >
    > > All good advice.... You might like to check out Tor, if you haven't
    > > tried it already. I have checked it out to the best of my ability. It
    > > certainly anonymises one's browsing. It's also open source and free.
    > > AFAICT the only problem from a privacy viewpoint is that anyone can act
    > > as a server.

    >
    > First, I don't have a need to hide, so I don't need to be anonymous.
    >
    > Second, if you are connecting to anyone else's computer, as the proxy,
    > then you have no real expectation of anonymity.
    >
    > Sure, you might be able to surf without the destination site knowing
    > your source address, but the proxy knows who you are and what you are
    > requesting....


    As far as Tor is concerned, only the first layer of the onion (i.e. the
    first server) knows your real ip address. Let's call that server N. N+1
    knows only the ip address of N. N+2 knows only the ip address of N+1.
    The exit node, N+j, does indeed know the destination ip address, but the
    source ip address (your ip address) is not known to it, nor is it known
    to all the preceding nodes, except node N. BTW Tor provides substantial
    documentation on how it works.

    Therefore your statement that "the proxy knows who you are and what you
    are requesting" is not true in the case of Tor. Or, to absolutely
    quality it, is not true AFAICT.

    Of course the whole thing could be a CIA or NSA scam....but that's
    another matter entirely.I doubt whether it is because of the number ofp
    layers involved and the open source nature of Tor.

    regards,

    Terry
    Terry Grateenshutz, Nov 18, 2004
    #10
  11. Christo

    Leythos Guest

    In article <419c8d05$0$1754$>, nothere@
    3er343!!.da says...
    >
    >
    > Leythos wrote:
    > >
    > > In article <419b723d$0$1721$>, nothere@
    > > 3er343!!.da says...
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > Leythos wrote:
    > > > >
    > > > > In article <>,
    > > > > says...
    > > > > > sorry im too gullable for my own good, i can see now why it would be a
    > > > > > stupid thing to trsut anyone but myself
    > > > >
    > > > > You've almost go it, but I think you are trying to be sarcastic. What
    > > > > you have to ask yourself is "How do I know I can trust someone providing
    > > > > the proxy". If you can't find compelling reason as to why you trust
    > > > > them, then your trust is misplaced.
    > > > >
    > > > > --
    > > > > --
    > > > >
    > > > > (Remove 999 to reply to me)
    > > >
    > > > All good advice.... You might like to check out Tor, if you haven't
    > > > tried it already. I have checked it out to the best of my ability. It
    > > > certainly anonymises one's browsing. It's also open source and free.
    > > > AFAICT the only problem from a privacy viewpoint is that anyone can act
    > > > as a server.

    > >
    > > First, I don't have a need to hide, so I don't need to be anonymous.
    > >
    > > Second, if you are connecting to anyone else's computer, as the proxy,
    > > then you have no real expectation of anonymity.
    > >
    > > Sure, you might be able to surf without the destination site knowing
    > > your source address, but the proxy knows who you are and what you are
    > > requesting....

    >
    > As far as Tor is concerned, only the first layer of the onion (i.e. the
    > first server) knows your real ip address. Let's call that server N. N+1
    > knows only the ip address of N. N+2 knows only the ip address of N+1.
    > The exit node, N+j, does indeed know the destination ip address, but the
    > source ip address (your ip address) is not known to it, nor is it known
    > to all the preceding nodes, except node N. BTW Tor provides substantial
    > documentation on how it works.
    >
    > Therefore your statement that "the proxy knows who you are and what you
    > are requesting" is not true in the case of Tor. Or, to absolutely
    > quality it, is not true AFAICT.


    Wrong, the first proxy knows who you are, and the second knows who the
    first is, and so it goes - so, it's true that you can't be sure you are
    really anonymous.

    > Of course the whole thing could be a CIA or NSA scam....but that's
    > another matter entirely.I doubt whether it is because of the number ofp
    > layers involved and the open source nature of Tor.


    Add the fact that a human setup the servers in every location and you
    have to do more than trust the technology, you have to trust the people
    that run the servers. The technology works, that's not the issue, it's
    how much pressure does it take to break the human side into revealing
    who you are...

    --
    --

    (Remove 999 to reply to me)
    Leythos, Nov 18, 2004
    #11
  12. Leythos wrote:
    >
    > In article <419c8d05$0$1754$>, nothere@
    > 3er343!!.da says...
    > >
    > >
    > > Leythos wrote:
    > > >
    > > > In article <419b723d$0$1721$>, nothere@
    > > > 3er343!!.da says...
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > > Leythos wrote:
    > > > > >
    > > > > > In article <>,
    > > > > > says...
    > > > > > > sorry im too gullable for my own good, i can see now why it would be a
    > > > > > > stupid thing to trsut anyone but myself
    > > > > >
    > > > > > You've almost go it, but I think you are trying to be sarcastic. What
    > > > > > you have to ask yourself is "How do I know I can trust someone providing
    > > > > > the proxy". If you can't find compelling reason as to why you trust
    > > > > > them, then your trust is misplaced.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > --
    > > > > > --
    > > > > >
    > > > > > (Remove 999 to reply to me)
    > > > >
    > > > > All good advice.... You might like to check out Tor, if you haven't
    > > > > tried it already. I have checked it out to the best of my ability. It
    > > > > certainly anonymises one's browsing. It's also open source and free.
    > > > > AFAICT the only problem from a privacy viewpoint is that anyone can act
    > > > > as a server.
    > > >
    > > > First, I don't have a need to hide, so I don't need to be anonymous.
    > > >
    > > > Second, if you are connecting to anyone else's computer, as the proxy,
    > > > then you have no real expectation of anonymity.
    > > >
    > > > Sure, you might be able to surf without the destination site knowing
    > > > your source address, but the proxy knows who you are and what you are
    > > > requesting....

    > >
    > > As far as Tor is concerned, only the first layer of the onion (i.e. the
    > > first server) knows your real ip address. Let's call that server N. N+1
    > > knows only the ip address of N. N+2 knows only the ip address of N+1.
    > > The exit node, N+j, does indeed know the destination ip address, but the
    > > source ip address (your ip address) is not known to it, nor is it known
    > > to all the preceding nodes, except node N. BTW Tor provides substantial
    > > documentation on how it works.
    > >
    > > Therefore your statement that "the proxy knows who you are and what you
    > > are requesting" is not true in the case of Tor. Or, to absolutely
    > > quality it, is not true AFAICT.

    >
    > Wrong, the first proxy knows who you are, and the second knows who the
    > first is, and so it goes - so, it's true that you can't be sure you are
    > really anonymous.
    >
    > > Of course the whole thing could be a CIA or NSA scam....but that's
    > > another matter entirely.I doubt whether it is because of the number ofp
    > > layers involved and the open source nature of Tor.

    >
    > Add the fact that a human setup the servers in every location and you
    > have to do more than trust the technology, you have to trust the people
    > that run the servers. The technology works, that's not the issue, it's
    > how much pressure does it take to break the human side into revealing
    > who you are...
    >
    > --
    > --
    >
    > (Remove 999 to reply to me)


    Yes, agreed. But let's hope that we haven't yet reached that particular
    human side yet -- at least not with Tor users :)

    FWIW, with Tor, even if an admin on any server node, other than N, were
    forced to give over the logs, as I understand it there still wouldn't be
    much (if any) chance of tracing the original source ip address. At any
    rate the vulnerabilities of Tor, including human factors ones are well
    discussed in the literature.

    I'm not particularly advocating Tor BTW. It just seems the best of
    what's available if one is interested in that increasingly scarce
    commodity called privacy.

    regards,

    Terry
    Terry Grateenshutz, Nov 18, 2004
    #12
  13. Christo

    Leythos Guest

    In article <419d0136$0$1738$>, nothere@
    3er343!!.da says...
    > Yes, agreed. But let's hope that we haven't yet reached that particular
    > human side yet -- at least not with Tor users :)


    But, and my statement stands, if you don't know the owners of the
    Proxies, then you have no reasonable expectation of privacy.

    While you have HOPE of privacy, without being certain who owns/operates
    the servers, all you really have is an assumption or blind faith.

    Are people really gullable enough to trust something on blind faith -
    when they are trying to hide what they are doing from the very people
    that have the ability to setup these simple proxies?

    --
    --

    (Remove 999 to reply to me)
    Leythos, Nov 18, 2004
    #13
  14. Leythos wrote:
    >
    > In article <419d0136$0$1738$>, nothere@
    > 3er343!!.da says...
    > > Yes, agreed. But let's hope that we haven't yet reached that particular
    > > human side yet -- at least not with Tor users :)

    >
    > But, and my statement stands, if you don't know the owners of the
    > Proxies, then you have no reasonable expectation of privacy.
    >
    > While you have HOPE of privacy, without being certain who owns/operates
    > the servers, all you really have is an assumption or blind faith.
    >
    > Are people really gullable enough to trust something on blind faith -
    > when they are trying to hide what they are doing from the very people
    > that have the ability to setup these simple proxies?
    >
    > --
    > --
    >
    > (Remove 999 to reply to me)


    I think we're kind of diverging here and being a bit cross-purposed.I do
    not dispute your fundamental logic as regards proxies in general. You
    are right and make a valid point.

    I do say, however, that Tor is different. You do not have to take it on
    blind faith. You can specify your exit server (say Z)and first server
    (say A). Or you can even set up a colleague's (someone you know) PC as a
    server and use that as A or Z. Now providing that server A and server Z
    are not compromised in some way, your browsing will be anonymous since
    any intermediate server, even if compromised, would not have access to
    your source IP address.

    BTW what would you suggest as an alternative?

    regards,

    Terry
    Terry Grateenshutz, Nov 19, 2004
    #14
  15. Christo

    Leythos Guest

    In article <419e51af$0$1738$>, nothere@
    3er343!!.da says...
    > Now providing that server A and server Z
    > are not compromised in some way, your browsing will be anonymous since
    > any intermediate server, even if compromised, would not have access to
    > your source IP address.


    So, unless you trust server A, you don't really know if your actions are
    being tracked. This is the way I look at it - say the owner of server B
    starts loggin all the traffic from server A, then server B owner sues
    server A owner, server A owner turns over all logs to server B owner,
    now Server B owner knows who is using his server.

    > BTW what would you suggest as an alternative?


    Except for places that restrict freedom, like Chnia, I can't understand
    anyone needing to hide from their own action. Unless they are doing
    something unethical, immoral, or illegal, I can't picture a valid reason
    for it. Heck, even if they are trying to hide their surfing habits from
    Work, it's still unethical, and still going to get them fired. Maybe in
    China I could use a use for it, but once the first hop is detected as a
    proxy they'll just shoot them :)

    I would suggest that people learn to not be afraid/ashamed of where they
    are surfing or they quit surfing there.




    --
    --

    (Remove 999 to reply to me)
    Leythos, Nov 19, 2004
    #15
  16. Leythos wrote:
    >
    > In article <419e51af$0$1738$>, nothere@
    > 3er343!!.da says...
    > > Now providing that server A and server Z
    > > are not compromised in some way, your browsing will be anonymous since
    > > any intermediate server, even if compromised, would not have access to
    > > your source IP address.

    >
    > So, unless you trust server A, you don't really know if your actions are
    > being tracked. This is the way I look at it - say the owner of server B
    > starts loggin all the traffic from server A, then server B owner sues
    > server A owner, server A owner turns over all logs to server B owner,
    > now Server B owner knows who is using his server.
    >
    > > BTW what would you suggest as an alternative?

    >
    > Except for places that restrict freedom, like Chnia, I can't understand
    > anyone needing to hide from their own action. Unless they are doing
    > something unethical, immoral, or illegal, I can't picture a valid reason
    > for it. Heck, even if they are trying to hide their surfing habits from
    > Work, it's still unethical, and still going to get them fired. Maybe in
    > China I could use a use for it, but once the first hop is detected as a
    > proxy they'll just shoot them :)
    >
    > I would suggest that people learn to not be afraid/ashamed of where they
    > are surfing or they quit surfing there.
    >
    >
    >
    > --
    > --
    >
    > (Remove 999 to reply to me)



    I'm not sure about the feasibility of the first point since server A and
    B are changed every few minutes by the Tor system.

    As for your second, are you not assuming that shame and fear are always
    base motives? What about the genuine and decent need for privacy by
    professionals, executives, investigative journalists, etc. They are
    concerned (fear if you like) for privacy to protect not only themselves
    but also customers, clients and informants.

    Despite this, I tend to agree with your main conclusion. If one really
    wants privacy use someone else's PC, 'cause if you're caught trying to
    cover your tracks, for whatever reason, -- then as you rightly say, if
    it's a totalitarian regime they'll simply nab you, or worse.

    regards,

    Terry
    Terry Grateenshutz, Nov 21, 2004
    #16
  17. Christo

    Richard Guest

    You could use JAP. Its free and open source.
    Only problem is, it was compromized a few years ago, but they have
    fixed that now. Whether they can be trusted again is questionable,
    but they are probably more trusted than some random proxy you get from
    a website like www.atomintersoft.com
    JAP bounces your connections off a chain of proxies (called mixes)
    which encrypt the communication to prevent packet sniffing by your
    ISP.



    --
    Visit my computer security and privacy website:
    http://computer-security.no-ip.info
    Richard, Nov 25, 2004
    #17
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