And so it begins...

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by techie, Nov 27, 2003.

  1. techie

    techie Guest

    Guess they didn't learn from PhoenixNet.


    <http://news.com.com/2100-7339_3-5111993.html>

    Phoenix toughens up BIOS

    The software that sits between the operating system and a
    PC's hardware hasn't changed much in decades. Now,
    Phoenix Technologies wants to introduce greater security,
    usability and copy protection.

    <snip>

    The plans have been criticized as crippling PCs'
    capabilities, solidifying the Microsoft operating system
    monopoly, and even, in cases where DRM is introduced,
    extending copyright holders' power into areas that have
    traditionally remained under the control of consumers.
     
    techie, Nov 27, 2003
    #1
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  2. techie

    Evil Bastard Guest

    On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 19:33:13 -0600, techie wrote:

    > Guess they didn't learn from PhoenixNet.
    > <http://news.com.com/2100-7339_3-5111993.html>
    >
    > Phoenix toughens up BIOS
    >
    > The software that sits between the operating system and a
    > PC's hardware hasn't changed much in decades. Now,
    > Phoenix Technologies wants to introduce greater security,
    > usability and copy protection.
    >
    > <snip>
    >
    > The plans have been criticized as crippling PCs'
    > capabilities, solidifying the Microsoft operating system
    > monopoly, and even, in cases where DRM is introduced,
    > extending copyright holders' power into areas that have
    > traditionally remained under the control of consumers.


    This is a very real and horrific possiblity.

    If M$ have their way, no home or office computer will be able to run any
    program not bearing an M$-issued certificate. And the certification
    process will cost a mint.

    The only exception will be programs that can only run within the most
    repressively sandboxed environments.

    Likely, the concept of a 'file' as we've always known it will disappear
    forever. This basic unit of storage will change to one where the actual
    data is encrypted, and enmeshed with all kinds of metadata. When emailing
    a file to someone, there will be no way to send just the data - one will
    only be able to send this 'black box', containing all kinds of info that
    one has no access to.

    The real risk is that Joe Windows Fuckwit will fall for those sexy
    levitation ads and buy the new policeware-infested hardware with nary a
    question about limitations. Likely though, Joe Windows Fuckwit will be
    tipped off well in advance that he might not be able to send wedding
    videos to his relatives with the new hardware.

    Sadly for Microfraud though, the Open Source community has gotten way too
    large and powerful for them to get away with this kind of shit, and is
    getting larger and more powerful every day, with governments and large
    corporations getting on board.

    Phoenix can ship all the crippled BIOSes it likes, but there will remain
    an immovable core of users and developers worldwide who will either not
    buy the shit, or will not consent to enabling any DRM features, and will
    refuse to surf websites or send/receive emails/documents etc with DRM
    restrictions.

    Not to mention the fact that as soon as the new DRM chips are hot off the
    foundries, crackers will be building DRM->non-DRM bridges.

    The only way to have any effective DRM is to sever people's optic and
    auditory nerves, and install DRM chips to filter the signals on those
    nerves. Which is not likely to happen (too) soon.

    EB
     
    Evil Bastard, Nov 27, 2003
    #2
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  3. techie

    Evil Bastard Guest

    The new dark ages

    >> Guess they didn't learn from PhoenixNet.
    >> <http://news.com.com/2100-7339_3-5111993.html>
    >>
    >> Phoenix toughens up BIOS


    A harrowing scenario some years ahead...

    New operating systems which do not allow users to create files, unless
    user has a personal ID certificate.

    Files can only be accessed by 'trusted' M$-certified apps.

    The free and cheap apps write indelible metadata along with the file,
    which restricts redistribution of the file to a limited number of others.

    To get an app which allows one to create a file readable by everyone,
    would cost a huge license fee.

    Web server software such as Apache locked out. DRM-compatible web server
    software - well, you pay by the hit. Want a mass audience? Well, you'd
    better have a budget comparable with that of Big Media.

    No way of removing from a file the metadata which identifies you
    personally as the creator - goodbye anonymous authorship.

    Apps which are paid for by annual subscription. Let your subscription run
    out, and you can no longer access your own files.

    Say anything in your files which offends anyone such as M$. Lose your
    licenses.

    Here's praying that the backbone internet routers will never succumb to
    Digital Repression Management. If that happens, we're fucked! That would
    result in an internet where you can't even go online unless you're under
    DRM bondage.

    Here's also hoping that the open computing fraternity will put up websites
    keeping track of exactly what repression is built into what hardware. I
    for one would be willing to do shifts standing outside ComputerCity, Dick
    Smith etc, handing out warning brochures to prospective computer
    purchasers.

    EB
     
    Evil Bastard, Nov 27, 2003
    #3
  4. techie

    dOTdASH Guest

    Re: The new dark ages

    "Evil Bastard" <postmaster@127.0.0.1> wrote in message
    news:pan.2003.11.27.06.43.40.698317@127.0.0.1...
    > >> Guess they didn't learn from PhoenixNet.
    > >> <http://news.com.com/2100-7339_3-5111993.html>
    > >>
    > >> Phoenix toughens up BIOS

    >
    > A harrowing scenario some years ahead...
    >
    > New operating systems which do not allow users to create files, unless
    > user has a personal ID certificate.
    >
    > Files can only be accessed by 'trusted' M$-certified apps.
    >
    > The free and cheap apps write indelible metadata along with the file,
    > which restricts redistribution of the file to a limited number of others.
    >
    > To get an app which allows one to create a file readable by everyone,
    > would cost a huge license fee.
    >
    > Web server software such as Apache locked out. DRM-compatible web server
    > software - well, you pay by the hit. Want a mass audience? Well, you'd
    > better have a budget comparable with that of Big Media.
    >
    > No way of removing from a file the metadata which identifies you
    > personally as the creator - goodbye anonymous authorship.
    >
    > Apps which are paid for by annual subscription. Let your subscription run
    > out, and you can no longer access your own files.
    >
    > Say anything in your files which offends anyone such as M$. Lose your
    > licenses.
    >
    > Here's praying that the backbone internet routers will never succumb to
    > Digital Repression Management. If that happens, we're fucked! That would
    > result in an internet where you can't even go online unless you're under
    > DRM bondage.
    >
    > Here's also hoping that the open computing fraternity will put up websites
    > keeping track of exactly what repression is built into what hardware. I
    > for one would be willing to do shifts standing outside ComputerCity, Dick
    > Smith etc, handing out warning brochures to prospective computer
    > purchasers.
    >
    > EB
    >


    This is conspiratorial crap. If Microsoft or any other company acted that
    way customers would vote with their wallets and go elsewhere. Your hatred of
    all things Microsoft is clouding your logic.
     
    dOTdASH, Nov 27, 2003
    #4
  5. techie

    Evil Bastard Guest

    Re: The new dark ages

    On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 22:18:52 +1300, dOTdASH wrote:

    > This is conspiratorial crap. If Microsoft or any other company acted that
    > way customers would vote with their wallets and go elsewhere. Your hatred of
    > all things Microsoft is clouding your logic.


    Stick a frog in a beaker of boiling water, it'll jump out straight away.

    Put it in a beaker of lukewarm water, heat slowly to boiling, and you've
    got a cooked frog.

    And yes - I do hate Microsoft - I won't deny that. As I hate all companies
    that use huge marketing budgets to pull the wool over people's eyes.

    It's only because of the abstract nature of software that M$ get away with
    as much shit as they do. If they pulled the same shit in the auto industry
    (for example), there'd be executives serving long jail time.
     
    Evil Bastard, Nov 27, 2003
    #5
  6. techie

    steve Guest

    Re: The new dark ages

    dOTdASH allegedly said:

    >
    > This is conspiratorial crap. If Microsoft or any other company acted that
    > way customers would vote with their wallets and go elsewhere. Your hatred
    > of all things Microsoft is clouding your logic.


    Think again. Microsoft will be doing this with the complete support for US
    Attorney General John Ashcroft as a "key part in the War on Terror".

    It will be legally required in the US....andanyone wanting a free trade
    agreement with them will have to "harmonise" their laws.

    Looks like it is time to develop a domestic, NZ, computer hardware
    capability - however rudimentary it might be.

    At least it will be free.

    --
    Best Regards,
    Steve Withers
    defenestrate: The act of throwing Windows out the window and replacing it on
    your PC with some other operating system.
     
    steve, Nov 27, 2003
    #6
  7. techie

    steve Guest

    Re: The new dark ages

    Evil Bastard allegedly said:

    > On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 22:18:52 +1300, dOTdASH wrote:
    >
    >> This is conspiratorial crap. If Microsoft or any other company acted that
    >> way customers would vote with their wallets and go elsewhere. Your hatred
    >> of all things Microsoft is clouding your logic.

    >
    > Stick a frog in a beaker of boiling water, it'll jump out straight away.
    >
    > Put it in a beaker of lukewarm water, heat slowly to boiling, and you've
    > got a cooked frog.
    >
    > And yes - I do hate Microsoft - I won't deny that. As I hate all companies
    > that use huge marketing budgets to pull the wool over people's eyes.
    >
    > It's only because of the abstract nature of software that M$ get away with
    > as much shit as they do. If they pulled the same shit in the auto industry
    > (for example), there'd be executives serving long jail time.


    Don't forget the "War on Terror", Evil.

    All manner of fascism is being foisted upon the peoples in the world in its
    name.....the US worst of all.

    --
    Best Regards,
    Steve Withers
    defenestrate: The act of throwing Windows out the window and replacing it on
    your PC with some other operating system.
     
    steve, Nov 27, 2003
    #7
  8. techie

    Adam Warner Guest

    OT: Boiling Frogs [was Re: The new dark ages]

    Hi Evil Bastard,

    > Stick a frog in a beaker of boiling water, it'll jump out straight away.
    >
    > Put it in a beaker of lukewarm water, heat slowly to boiling, and you've
    > got a cooked frog.


    Apparently this is an urban myth. Scientists have gradually heated
    submerged amphibians and reptiles to test their "critical thermal maxima".
    If frogs have an opportunity to jump out they will.
    <http://www.snopes.com/critters/wild/frogboil.htm>

    However, `Like a fable, the "boiled frog" anecdote serves its purpose
    whether or not it's based upon something that is literally true.'

    Regards,
    Adam
     
    Adam Warner, Nov 27, 2003
    #8
  9. techie

    Ralph Mason Guest

    "techie" <> wrote in message
    news:p...
    > Guess they didn't learn from PhoenixNet.
    >
    >
    > <http://news.com.com/2100-7339_3-5111993.html>
    >
    > Phoenix toughens up BIOS
    >
    > The software that sits between the operating system and a
    > PC's hardware hasn't changed much in decades. Now,
    > Phoenix Technologies wants to introduce greater security,
    > usability and copy protection.
    >
    > <snip>
    >
    > The plans have been criticized as crippling PCs'
    > capabilities, solidifying the Microsoft operating system
    > monopoly, and even, in cases where DRM is introduced,
    > extending copyright holders' power into areas that have
    > traditionally remained under the control of consumers.


    Open source bios is the next frontier then.

    These companies just love shooting themselves in the foot.

    Ralph
     
    Ralph Mason, Nov 27, 2003
    #9
  10. techie

    T.N.O. Guest

    Re: OT: Boiling Frogs [was Re: The new dark ages]

    Adam Warner wrote:
    >>Stick a frog in a beaker of boiling water, it'll jump out straight away.
    >>Put it in a beaker of lukewarm water, heat slowly to boiling, and you've
    >>got a cooked frog.


    > Apparently this is an urban myth. Scientists have gradually heated
    > submerged amphibians and reptiles to test their "critical thermal maxima".
    > If frogs have an opportunity to jump out they will.
    > <http://www.snopes.com/critters/wild/frogboil.htm>
    > However, `Like a fable, the "boiled frog" anecdote serves its purpose
    > whether or not it's based upon something that is literally true.'


    You can however do it with Crayfish...
     
    T.N.O., Nov 27, 2003
    #10
  11. techie

    T.N.O. Guest

    T.N.O., Nov 27, 2003
    #11
  12. techie

    AD. Guest

    On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 08:19:04 +1300, Ralph Mason wrote:

    > Open source bios is the next frontier then.


    I'd love a mobo manufacture to come out with a OpenBoot (?) based x86
    board. I've had a little experience with it on a Solaris machine, and
    apparently Apples also have it.

    I'm sure Linux wouldn't have much trouble booting from it seeing it runs
    on those other systems too.

    The existing PC BIOS is pretty clunky and needs to be replaced by
    something a little better (no more C: and D: drives etc). I hear that
    Opteron boards have made some progress in that area?

    Cheers
    Anton
     
    AD., Nov 27, 2003
    #12
  13. techie

    Enkidu Guest

    On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 09:31:09 +1300, "AD." <> wrote:

    >On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 08:19:04 +1300, Ralph Mason wrote:
    >
    >> Open source bios is the next frontier then.

    >
    >I'd love a mobo manufacture to come out with a OpenBoot (?) based x86
    >board. I've had a little experience with it on a Solaris machine, and
    >apparently Apples also have it.
    >
    >I'm sure Linux wouldn't have much trouble booting from it seeing it runs
    >on those other systems too.
    >
    >The existing PC BIOS is pretty clunky and needs to be replaced by
    >something a little better (no more C: and D: drives etc). I hear that
    >Opteron boards have made some progress in that area?
    >

    There are no drive letters at the BIOS level.

    Cheers,

    Cliff
    --

    The complete lack of evidence is the surest sign
    that the conspiracy is working.
     
    Enkidu, Nov 27, 2003
    #13
  14. techie

    AD. Guest

    On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 09:55:40 +1300, Enkidu wrote:

    >>The existing PC BIOS is pretty clunky and needs to be replaced by
    >>something a little better (no more C: and D: drives etc). I hear that
    >>Opteron boards have made some progress in that area?
    >>

    > There are no drive letters at the BIOS level.


    Coulda fooled me.

    Cheers
    Anton
     
    AD., Nov 27, 2003
    #14
  15. techie

    T.N.O. Guest

    AD. wrote:
    >>>The existing PC BIOS is pretty clunky and needs to be replaced by
    >>>something a little better (no more C: and D: drives etc). I hear that
    >>>Opteron boards have made some progress in that area?


    >>There are no drive letters at the BIOS level.


    > Coulda fooled me.


    There are in three here... boot sequence, "a: c: scsi"
     
    T.N.O., Nov 27, 2003
    #15
  16. Tho its not totally related to the OS level, older BIOS'es used drive
    letters to determine boot sequences....

    Remember boot orders like A,C,CDROM and CDROM,A,C etc?
    Tho 'C' does just mean IDE'0', as C could be a partitioned drive but bios
    wouldnt know that.

    Cant really remember how bios looks in that detail, but doesnt it still say
    A: <option> 360kB, 1.2MB, 1.44MB, 2.88MB <\option> for disc drives?

    Should it be FDD0, FDD1?

    M


    "Enkidu" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 09:31:09 +1300, "AD." <> wrote:
    >
    > >On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 08:19:04 +1300, Ralph Mason wrote:
    > >
    > >> Open source bios is the next frontier then.

    > >
    > >I'd love a mobo manufacture to come out with a OpenBoot (?) based x86
    > >board. I've had a little experience with it on a Solaris machine, and
    > >apparently Apples also have it.
    > >
    > >I'm sure Linux wouldn't have much trouble booting from it seeing it runs
    > >on those other systems too.
    > >
    > >The existing PC BIOS is pretty clunky and needs to be replaced by
    > >something a little better (no more C: and D: drives etc). I hear that
    > >Opteron boards have made some progress in that area?
    > >

    > There are no drive letters at the BIOS level.
    >
    > Cheers,
    >
    > Cliff
    > --
    >
    > The complete lack of evidence is the surest sign
    > that the conspiracy is working.
     
    Matthew Strickland, Nov 27, 2003
    #16
  17. techie

    Ralph Mason Guest

    "T.N.O." <> wrote in message
    news:bq5jkp$1um2em$-berlin.de...
    > Ralph Mason wrote:
    > > Open source bios is the next frontier then.

    >
    > You mean like Linux Bios?
    > http://www.linuxbios.org/


    Although at the end of the day all a bios really needs to do is read a
    bootsector into memory and execute it (configure any odd hardware to look
    like regular hardware also ) OS's handle pretty much everything else. You
    could imagine a Lilo type thing that you specify the chip set (hopefully
    probed) that generates you a biosimage for the board.

    An ironic little twist is a story I hear about Billy G and his wearing
    tee-shirts with The don't symbol (red circle with line through it) with the
    word bios under it. And little slogans, like 'friends don't let friends use
    bios'

    So it would be a very interesting turnaround for them to start saying, we
    must have this code in the bios, because at the end of the day, code is
    code - no matter where it's stored.

    Ralph
     
    Ralph Mason, Nov 27, 2003
    #17
  18. techie

    Enkidu Guest

    On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 11:11:33 +1300, "T.N.O." <> wrote:

    >AD. wrote:
    >>>>The existing PC BIOS is pretty clunky and needs to be replaced by
    >>>>something a little better (no more C: and D: drives etc). I hear that
    >>>>Opteron boards have made some progress in that area?

    >
    >>>There are no drive letters at the BIOS level.

    >
    >> Coulda fooled me.

    >
    >There are in three here... boot sequence, "a: c: scsi"
    >

    Heh!

    Mine says:

    First Boot Device : Floppy
    Second Boot Device : IDE-0
    Third Boot Device : CDROM

    I stand by what I said. There are no drive letters at the BIOS level.
    That is, unless the BIOS maker decides to emulate the DOS drive naming
    scheme.

    Cheers,

    Cliff
    --

    The complete lack of evidence is the surest sign
    that the conspiracy is working.
     
    Enkidu, Nov 27, 2003
    #18
  19. techie

    T.N.O. Guest

    Enkidu wrote:
    >>>>There are no drive letters at the BIOS level.


    >>>Coulda fooled me.


    >>There are in three here... boot sequence, "a: c: scsi"


    > I stand by what I said. There are no drive letters at the BIOS level.
    > That is, unless the BIOS maker decides to emulate the DOS drive naming
    > scheme.


    Rather than saying that there are "no drive letters at the BIOS level",
    maybe you should have said that "there should be no drive letters at the
    bios level, unless they try to emulate the DOS drive naming scheme"...
    but that sounds kinda long winded. :)
     
    T.N.O., Nov 27, 2003
    #19
  20. techie

    Max Burke Guest

    Re: The new dark ages

    > Evil Bastard scribbled:
    > A harrowing scenario some years ahead...


    COLA newsgroup subject line, 12-8-2002
    OSS and Linux may save us from a new dark age.

    The Trusted Computing Platform Alliance, or TCPA, was formed by Compaq, HP,
    IBM, Intel and Microsoft. All five companies have been individually working
    on improving the trust available within the PC for years. These companies
    came to an important conclusion: the level, or "amount", of trust they were
    able to deliver to their customers, and upon which a great deal of the
    information revolution depended, needed to be increased and security
    solutions for PC's needed to be easy to deploy, use and manage. An open
    alliance was formed to work on creating a new computing platform for the
    next century that will provide for improved trust in the PC platform.
    http://www.trustedcomputing.org/tcpaasp4/index.asp

    TCPA usage models:
    http://www.trustedcomputing.org/docs/USAGE_MODELS_020702.pdf

    What will the OSS/*nix community do when TCPA becomes part of the
    OSS/*nix products and services of all the above companies?
    Find some other OS to use?

    --
    mlvburke@#%&*.net.nz
    Replace the obvious with paradise to email me.
    See Found Images at:
    http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/~mlvburke/
     
    Max Burke, Nov 28, 2003
    #20
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