Am I just being over sensitive?

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by Shane, Mar 29, 2006.

  1. Shane

    Shane Guest

    Given that everyone here *knows* Im a all round nice guy <G>
    I exchange some emails with a prospective employer (P/T) and Im detecting
    sarcasm, in conjunction with two or three other *little* things Im
    considering telling the guy thanks but no thanks
    But...
    What do you think?
    __Start__

    Hi Shane.  Would you email me a paper copy of the signed forms?

    The Monday hours are when I'd like you to work.  Initially I just want
    some face time for an hour or two so we can work in with when would suit
    you (9-11?)  If you need some time during the 7-11 to you'll find that we're
    pretty flexible accommodating that.

    Once I get those forms back we can talk about when best to get you started.

    Regards, New Employer
    Shane wrote:
    > Hi New Employer,
    >
    > Thanks everything looks straight forward, I just have a query on the

    hours.
    > The pdf mentions Monday mornings at 7am to 11am, but I'm assuming this

    isn't
    > during the time I will be travelling to new workplace?
    > And do you want a dead tree version of the contract returned to you, or do

    I
    > return an edited copy via email?
    >
    >
    > Thanks
    > Shane


    __EOF__

    Hmm even after I write it up for posting I cant decide if theres an issue
    there or not
    The other point is, The contract forbids me to work *for* any of his clients
    I meet during the course of my employment, for 12 months after finishing
    with him, I.T. employment is all about networking, so I'm told, so it seems
    harsh, not that Im looking to overtly solicit his clients for work (the
    hours we have agreed on are plenty considering I have to fit study and
    intarweb arguing in as well). Any thoughts?
     
    Shane, Mar 29, 2006
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Shane

    Steve Guest

    On Wed, 29 Mar 2006 16:19:36 +1200, Shane wrote:

    > Given that everyone here *knows* Im a all round nice guy <G>
    > I exchange some emails with a prospective employer (P/T) and Im detecting
    > sarcasm, in conjunction with two or three other *little* things Im
    > considering telling the guy thanks but no thanks
    > But...
    > What do you think?
    > __Start__
    >
    > Hi Shane.  Would you email me a paper copy of the signed forms?
    >
    > The Monday hours are when I'd like you to work.  Initially I just want
    > some face time for an hour or two so we can work in with when would suit
    > you (9-11?)  If you need some time during the 7-11 to you'll find that we're
    > pretty flexible accommodating that.
    >
    > Once I get those forms back we can talk about when best to get you started.
    >
    > Regards, New Employer
    > Shane wrote:
    >> Hi New Employer,
    >>
    >> Thanks everything looks straight forward, I just have a query on the

    > hours.
    >> The pdf mentions Monday mornings at 7am to 11am, but I'm assuming this

    > isn't
    >> during the time I will be travelling to new workplace?
    >> And do you want a dead tree version of the contract returned to you, or do

    > I
    >> return an edited copy via email?
    >>
    >>
    >> Thanks
    >> Shane

    >
    > __EOF__
    >
    > Hmm even after I write it up for posting I cant decide if theres an issue
    > there or not
    > The other point is, The contract forbids me to work *for* any of his clients
    > I meet during the course of my employment, for 12 months after finishing
    > with him, I.T. employment is all about networking, so I'm told, so it seems
    > harsh, not that Im looking to overtly solicit his clients for work (the
    > hours we have agreed on are plenty considering I have to fit study and
    > intarweb arguing in as well). Any thoughts?


    Do you *really* want the job? If not, then refuse to sign without the
    removal of the offending bits - be willing to haggle on the length of the
    ban. It's unlikely that you'll meet many between 7 and 11 on Monday
    mornings, though so the point's a bit moot. ( Set up your own company, and
    work through that. Then you'll not need to work for any of them - much
    better solution ).

    Will you be either working for or delivering product to their clients? It
    sort of changes the picture a bit.

    Also, is English the PE's first language?
     
    Steve, Mar 29, 2006
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Shane

    Shane Guest

    Steve wrote:

    > On Wed, 29 Mar 2006 16:19:36 +1200, Shane wrote:
    >
    >> Given that everyone here *knows* Im a all round nice guy <G>
    >> I exchange some emails with a prospective employer (P/T) and Im detecting
    >> sarcasm, in conjunction with two or three other *little* things Im
    >> considering telling the guy thanks but no thanks
    >> But...
    >> What do you think?
    >> __Start__
    >>
    >> Hi Shane.  Would you email me a paper copy of the signed forms?
    >>
    >> The Monday hours are when I'd like you to work.  Initially I just want
    >> some face time for an hour or two so we can work in with when would suit
    >> you (9-11?)  If you need some time during the 7-11 to you'll find that
    >> we're pretty flexible accommodating that.
    >>
    >> Once I get those forms back we can talk about when best to get you
    >> started.
    >>
    >> Regards, New Employer
    >> Shane wrote:
    >>> Hi New Employer,
    >>>
    >>> Thanks everything looks straight forward, I just have a query on the

    >> hours.
    >>> The pdf mentions Monday mornings at 7am to 11am, but I'm assuming this

    >> isn't
    >>> during the time I will be travelling to new workplace?
    >>> And do you want a dead tree version of the contract returned to you, or
    >>> do

    >> I
    >>> return an edited copy via email?
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> Thanks
    >>> Shane

    >>
    >> __EOF__
    >>
    >> Hmm even after I write it up for posting I cant decide if theres an issue
    >> there or not
    >> The other point is, The contract forbids me to work *for* any of his
    >> clients I meet during the course of my employment, for 12 months after
    >> finishing with him, I.T. employment is all about networking, so I'm told,
    >> so it seems harsh, not that Im looking to overtly solicit his clients for
    >> work (the hours we have agreed on are plenty considering I have to fit
    >> study and
    >> intarweb arguing in as well). Any thoughts?

    >
    > Do you *really* want the job? If not, then refuse to sign without the
    > removal of the offending bits - be willing to haggle on the length of the
    > ban. It's unlikely that you'll meet many between 7 and 11 on Monday
    > mornings, though so the point's a bit moot. ( Set up your own company, and
    > work through that. Then you'll not need to work for any of them - much
    > better solution ).
    >
    > Will you be either working for or delivering product to their clients? It
    > sort of changes the picture a bit.
    >
    > Also, is English the PE's first language?


    Heh thanks,
    I could do with the job, its SA and I wouldnt mind a little piece of paper
    saying Im not as bad as I smell/look
    The hours are *perfect* for me, I could do with the dosh (what struggling
    student couldnt)
    I'll be sitting on my duff working remotely for the job, which is *another*
    plus
    Its servicing clients so I will be dealing with them on a day 2 day basis
    (well as day 2 day as a p/t job can be)
    Im now beginning to think Im just moaning over details :)
    The PEs first lang is english, but hes also fluent in comp.lang.java
    Which means he *should* be used to dealing with IT staff
    (Is it IT, ICT, or ISS staff now???)
    Maybe hes being flippant because it was fairly obvious (to him) how he
    wanted it, and thats precisely the type of answer Id give.. socially.. but
    not professionally
    Hmm
     
    Shane, Mar 29, 2006
    #3
  4. Shane

    Mercury Guest

    > Heh thanks,
    > I could do with the job, its SA and I wouldnt mind a little piece of paper
    > saying Im not as bad as I smell/look


    Can't smell anything here. Oh and shit your gorgious.

    > The hours are *perfect* for me, I could do with the dosh (what struggling
    > student couldnt)
    > I'll be sitting on my duff working remotely for the job, which is
    > *another*
    > plus
    > Its servicing clients so I will be dealing with them on a day 2 day basis
    > (well as day 2 day as a p/t job can be)
    > Im now beginning to think Im just moaning over details :)
    > The PEs first lang is english, but hes also fluent in comp.lang.java
    > Which means he *should* be used to dealing with IT staff
    > (Is it IT, ICT, or ISS staff now???)
    > Maybe hes being flippant because it was fairly obvious (to him) how he
    > wanted it, and thats precisely the type of answer Id give.. socially.. but
    > not professionally
    > Hmm


    Negotiate on the points that stick - 12 months is a bit much for a SA / part
    time position (if their grasp on their clients is so feeble, then they have
    an issue and need to sort it) - perhaps suggest a sliding scale. 2 weeks per
    month employed limited to six months. Six months is still a lot IMHO unless
    they are specific about the technology / proprietary nature EG they are
    working on a something to be patented, then it would be reasonable for a
    long period.
     
    Mercury, Mar 29, 2006
    #4
  5. Shane

    Shane Guest

    Mercury wrote:

    >> Heh thanks,
    >> I could do with the job, its SA and I wouldnt mind a little piece of
    >> paper saying Im not as bad as I smell/look

    >
    > Can't smell anything here. Oh and shit your gorgious.
    >


    With talk like that, you could buy me beer :)

    >> The hours are *perfect* for me, I could do with the dosh (what struggling
    >> student couldnt)
    >> I'll be sitting on my duff working remotely for the job, which is
    >> *another*
    >> plus
    >> Its servicing clients so I will be dealing with them on a day 2 day basis
    >> (well as day 2 day as a p/t job can be)
    >> Im now beginning to think Im just moaning over details :)
    >> The PEs first lang is english, but hes also fluent in comp.lang.java
    >> Which means he *should* be used to dealing with IT staff
    >> (Is it IT, ICT, or ISS staff now???)
    >> Maybe hes being flippant because it was fairly obvious (to him) how he
    >> wanted it, and thats precisely the type of answer Id give.. socially..
    >> but not professionally
    >> Hmm

    >
    > Negotiate on the points that stick - 12 months is a bit much for a SA /
    > part time position (if their grasp on their clients is so feeble, then
    > they have an issue and need to sort it) - perhaps suggest a sliding scale.
    > 2 weeks per month employed limited to six months. Six months is still a
    > lot IMHO unless they are specific about the technology / proprietary
    > nature EG they are working on a something to be patented, then it would be
    > reasonable for a long period.


    This is good advice
    Thanks
    Although the IP details are very reasonable compared to other contracts Ive
    seen (Basically all hes interested in is the copyright of things produced
    for him :)
    Damn I *hate* contracts, I can see the point when employers have to cover
    their ass, and it covers employees asses as well... sometimes... but I'll
    never like them... least not till I get the nice brunette in the LLB course
    up the duff....
     
    Shane, Mar 29, 2006
    #5
  6. On Wed, 29 Mar 2006 18:59:10 +1200, Shane wrote:

    > Although the IP details are very reasonable compared to other contracts Ive
    > seen (Basically all hes interested in is the copyright of things produced
    > for him :)


    I work part time. Basically I'm restricted from trading against my
    employer for a period of one month, which happens to be how much notice I
    have to give.

    --
    Regards,

    Waylon Kenning.
     
    Waylon Kenning, Mar 29, 2006
    #6
  7. Shane

    EMB Guest

    Shane wrote:

    > The other point is, The contract forbids me to work *for* any of his clients
    > I meet during the course of my employment, for 12 months after finishing
    > with him,


    ROTFLMAO. I had a former employer try and hit me with a 6 month clause
    like that - as soon as I objected he dropped to 3 months without a
    whimper and admitted he was just trying to see what he could get away
    with. I'm currently working with a handshake agreement not to poach
    clients - perfectly acceptable to all parties concerned. I'd suggest
    that you tell him to delete the clause in it's entirety given how
    relatively low-end the job you will be doing is.



    --
    EMB
     
    EMB, Mar 29, 2006
    #7
  8. Shane

    Philip Guest

    Shane wrote:
    > Mercury wrote:
    >
    >>> Heh thanks,
    >>> I could do with the job, its SA and I wouldnt mind a little piece of
    >>> paper saying Im not as bad as I smell/look

    >> Can't smell anything here. Oh and shit your gorgious.
    >>

    >
    > With talk like that, you could buy me beer :)
    >
    >>> The hours are *perfect* for me, I could do with the dosh (what struggling
    >>> student couldnt)
    >>> I'll be sitting on my duff working remotely for the job, which is
    >>> *another*
    >>> plus
    >>> Its servicing clients so I will be dealing with them on a day 2 day basis
    >>> (well as day 2 day as a p/t job can be)
    >>> Im now beginning to think Im just moaning over details :)
    >>> The PEs first lang is english, but hes also fluent in comp.lang.java
    >>> Which means he *should* be used to dealing with IT staff
    >>> (Is it IT, ICT, or ISS staff now???)
    >>> Maybe hes being flippant because it was fairly obvious (to him) how he
    >>> wanted it, and thats precisely the type of answer Id give.. socially..
    >>> but not professionally
    >>> Hmm

    >> Negotiate on the points that stick - 12 months is a bit much for a SA /
    >> part time position (if their grasp on their clients is so feeble, then
    >> they have an issue and need to sort it) - perhaps suggest a sliding scale.
    >> 2 weeks per month employed limited to six months. Six months is still a
    >> lot IMHO unless they are specific about the technology / proprietary
    >> nature EG they are working on a something to be patented, then it would be
    >> reasonable for a long period.

    >
    > This is good advice
    > Thanks
    > Although the IP details are very reasonable compared to other contracts Ive
    > seen (Basically all hes interested in is the copyright of things produced
    > for him :)
    > Damn I *hate* contracts, I can see the point when employers have to cover
    > their ass, and it covers employees asses as well... sometimes... but I'll
    > never like them... least not till I get the nice brunette in the LLB course
    > up the duff....
    >
    >

    You do it on company time, it belongs to the company & you can't take it
    with you when you leave (without their say so)

    You do it on private time in a different field, it's yours.

    You do it on private time using company IP, specialist knowledge or just
    in the same field as the company, you have a debate that you might not
    win. But if you improve the company's product on your own time I'd
    reckon you are entitled to reward.

    Philip

    (
     
    Philip, Mar 29, 2006
    #8
  9. Shane

    thingy Guest

    Shane wrote:
    > Given that everyone here *knows* Im a all round nice guy <G>
    > I exchange some emails with a prospective employer (P/T) and Im detecting
    > sarcasm, in conjunction with two or three other *little* things Im
    > considering telling the guy thanks but no thanks
    > But...
    > What do you think?
    > __Start__
    >
    > Hi Shane. Would you email me a paper copy of the signed forms?
    >
    > The Monday hours are when I'd like you to work. Initially I just want
    > some face time for an hour or two so we can work in with when would suit
    > you (9-11?) If you need some time during the 7-11 to you'll find that we're
    > pretty flexible accommodating that.
    >
    > Once I get those forms back we can talk about when best to get you started.
    >
    > Regards, New Employer
    > Shane wrote:
    >
    >>Hi New Employer,
    >>
    >>Thanks everything looks straight forward, I just have a query on the

    >
    > hours.
    >
    >>The pdf mentions Monday mornings at 7am to 11am, but I'm assuming this

    >
    > isn't
    >
    >>during the time I will be travelling to new workplace?
    >>And do you want a dead tree version of the contract returned to you, or do

    >
    > I
    >
    >>return an edited copy via email?
    >>
    >>
    >>Thanks
    >>Shane

    >
    >
    > __EOF__
    >
    > Hmm even after I write it up for posting I cant decide if theres an issue
    > there or not
    > The other point is, The contract forbids me to work *for* any of his clients
    > I meet during the course of my employment, for 12 months after finishing
    > with him, I.T. employment is all about networking, so I'm told, so it seems
    > harsh, not that Im looking to overtly solicit his clients for work (the
    > hours we have agreed on are plenty considering I have to fit study and
    > intarweb arguing in as well). Any thoughts?
    >


    email you a paper copy of the forms?

    heh....

    Any of his clients sounds reasonable, 12 months sounds OK ish. When
    contracting most agencies do this, some even as long as 2 years....which
    is silly.

    regards

    Thing
     
    thingy, Mar 29, 2006
    #9
  10. Shane

    thingy Guest

    Philip wrote:
    > Shane wrote:
    >
    >> Mercury wrote:
    >>
    >>>> Heh thanks,
    >>>> I could do with the job, its SA and I wouldnt mind a little piece of
    >>>> paper saying Im not as bad as I smell/look
    >>>
    >>> Can't smell anything here. Oh and shit your gorgious.
    >>>

    >>
    >> With talk like that, you could buy me beer :)
    >>
    >>>> The hours are *perfect* for me, I could do with the dosh (what
    >>>> struggling
    >>>> student couldnt)
    >>>> I'll be sitting on my duff working remotely for the job, which is
    >>>> *another*
    >>>> plus
    >>>> Its servicing clients so I will be dealing with them on a day 2 day
    >>>> basis
    >>>> (well as day 2 day as a p/t job can be)
    >>>> Im now beginning to think Im just moaning over details :)
    >>>> The PEs first lang is english, but hes also fluent in comp.lang.java
    >>>> Which means he *should* be used to dealing with IT staff
    >>>> (Is it IT, ICT, or ISS staff now???)
    >>>> Maybe hes being flippant because it was fairly obvious (to him) how he
    >>>> wanted it, and thats precisely the type of answer Id give.. socially..
    >>>> but not professionally
    >>>> Hmm
    >>>
    >>> Negotiate on the points that stick - 12 months is a bit much for a SA /
    >>> part time position (if their grasp on their clients is so feeble, then
    >>> they have an issue and need to sort it) - perhaps suggest a sliding
    >>> scale.
    >>> 2 weeks per month employed limited to six months. Six months is still a
    >>> lot IMHO unless they are specific about the technology / proprietary
    >>> nature EG they are working on a something to be patented, then it
    >>> would be
    >>> reasonable for a long period.

    >>
    >>
    >> This is good advice
    >> Thanks
    >> Although the IP details are very reasonable compared to other
    >> contracts Ive
    >> seen (Basically all hes interested in is the copyright of things produced
    >> for him :)


    OK, but what about if you base some of the work on stuff you previously
    did? say use a piece of neat java code you have developed over the last
    year? You would not want to lose the right to continue using it would
    you? I'd discuss this point.

    >> Damn I *hate* contracts, I can see the point when employers have to cover
    >> their ass, and it covers employees asses as well... sometimes... but I'll
    >> never like them... least not till I get the nice brunette in the LLB
    >> course
    >> up the duff....
    >>
    >>

    > You do it on company time, it belongs to the company & you can't take it
    > with you when you leave (without their say so)
    >
    > You do it on private time in a different field, it's yours.


    Depends on the contract, some say all IP. So if you are a techy in IT
    and say develope a world beating combusion engine in your own time, you
    might find them coming after you as its worth their while.

    In 2000 I went to work for a hospital on a contract, they tried this
    one, I crossed those out in front of HR. This was for 2 reasons, it
    covered all IP, even in un-related work, plus the output I was giving
    them was based on taking thier raw data putting into my "middle work"
    with the output going to them....they wanted all IP to be handed over to
    them and specifically not re-used incl the middle process. We
    negoitiated a new contract on more reasonable terms and off we went.

    This happened again with a big American Company, they wanted all IP, but
    this time it was wrapped up in an "ethics" clause that they expected us
    to sign about 2 years after I started and every year afterwards, I
    refused. We had an argument, they claimed that what I was doing was
    signing to say I had read it and not that I agreed with it, but that was
    not what it said from what I read. This was an ongoing drama til I left....

    So you do need to be careful.

    > You do it on private time using company IP, specialist knowledge or just
    > in the same field as the company, you have a debate that you might not
    > win. But if you improve the company's product on your own time I'd
    > reckon you are entitled to reward.
    >
    > Philip
    >
    > (


    regards

    Thing
     
    thingy, Mar 29, 2006
    #10

  11. > Any of his clients sounds reasonable, 12 months sounds OK ish. When
    > contracting most agencies do this, some even as long as 2 years....which
    > is silly.
    >



    in practice, these clauses are almost never enforced. once the contract
    has expired, you no longer have a contract.... so all bets are off. end
    of story.

    R
     
    Rimu Atkinson, Mar 30, 2006
    #11
  12. On Thu, 30 Mar 2006 15:30:12 +1200, Rimu Atkinson wrote:

    > in practice, these clauses are almost never enforced. once the contract
    > has expired, you no longer have a contract.... so all bets are off. end
    > of story.


    Actually, if a contract has a sunset clause in it that specifies residual
    obligations and responsibilities, then that clause is fully enforceable
    until it finally and fully expire.


    Have A Nice Cup of Tea

    --
    1/ Migration to Linux only costs money once. Higher Windows TCO is forever.
    2/ "Shared source" is a poison pill. Open Source is freedom.
    3/ Only the Windows boxes get the worms.
     
    Have A Nice Cup of Tea, Mar 30, 2006
    #12
  13. Shane

    Bret Guest

    On Thu, 30 Mar 2006 23:21:47 +1200, Have A Nice Cup of Tea <>
    wrote:

    >On Thu, 30 Mar 2006 15:30:12 +1200, Rimu Atkinson wrote:
    >
    >> in practice, these clauses are almost never enforced. once the contract
    >> has expired, you no longer have a contract.... so all bets are off. end
    >> of story.

    >
    >Actually, if a contract has a sunset clause in it that specifies residual
    >obligations and responsibilities, then that clause is fully enforceable
    >until it finally and fully expire.
    >
    >

    Pfffttt.
     
    Bret, Mar 31, 2006
    #13
    1. Advertising

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

It takes just 2 minutes to sign up (and it's free!). Just click the sign up button to choose a username and then you can ask your own questions on the forum.
Similar Threads
  1. Terje
    Replies:
    1
    Views:
    392
  2. Jimmy Dean

    Is WinXP more driver sensitive than 98SE or Me?

    Jimmy Dean, Dec 8, 2003, in forum: Computer Support
    Replies:
    2
    Views:
    455
    Greg M
    Dec 8, 2003
  3. Alex Vinokur

    Too sensitive mouse

    Alex Vinokur, Mar 4, 2005, in forum: Computer Support
    Replies:
    9
    Views:
    7,994
  4. info

    Time Sensitive Vivitar Help Request

    info, Nov 30, 2003, in forum: Digital Photography
    Replies:
    3
    Views:
    558
    George
    Nov 30, 2003
  5. Theo Markettos

    VOIP over VPN over TCP over WAP over 3G

    Theo Markettos, Feb 3, 2008, in forum: UK VOIP
    Replies:
    2
    Views:
    927
    Theo Markettos
    Feb 14, 2008
Loading...

Share This Page