All NiMH batteries are dishonestly marketed?

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by David Arnstein, Apr 30, 2006.

  1. Before I started buying AA size NiMH cells, I got myself a LaCrosse
    BC-900 battery charger. This helps me to evaluate the cells that I buy.
    The charger can measure the capacity of cells (as measured in mAH) and
    it can perform a "refresh cycle." This procedure repeatedly charges and
    discharges the cells, measuring the capacity of the cells after each
    repetition. As long as the capacity is increasing, the cycle continues.

    This "refresh cycle" is very useful in testing new cells, since the
    cells need a few discharge cycles before their best capacity is achieved.

    Another feature of the LaCrosse BC-900 is that it can charge and discharge
    cells quite slowly: as slow as 200 mA charge and 100 mA discharge. In
    my testing, I used this setting uniformly. I presume that this results
    in the most optimistic results when testing my cells.

    So I set to work testing some cells that I purchased.

    The first thing that I learned is that the two battery companies "Power
    2000" and "Ultralast" are both extremely dishonest. My "Power 2000"
    cells are labelled as having 2700 mAH capacity. I tested my four cells
    at 2190, 2120, 2070, and 2140 mAH. My "Ultralast" cells are labelled as
    having 2600 mAH capacity. I tested my four cells at 2120, 2160, 2150,
    and 2180 mAH.

    Avoid these brands! Don't get ripped off and don't reward dishonest
    business practices!

    Finally, I purchased some Energizer AA cells marked as having 2500 mAH
    capacity. There seems to be a respectable consensus on this news group
    (and elsewhere) that these are good cells. I just finished testing them
    at 2330, 2350, 2310, and 2360 mAH. Still not as marked, so I was
    disappointed.

    One other test: The LaCrosse charger is sold with some AA cells marked
    as having 2000 mAH capacity. I tested them at 1862, 1804, 1850, and
    1869 mAH. Again, the marking is just a little dishonest.

    I am pleased that I purchased the Energizer cells. Note that these cells
    are marked as having a lower capacity than the "Power 2000" cells and
    the "Ultralast" cells. Yet, the Energizers test *higher*.

    I realize that my little BC-900 charger is not god. But I believe that
    I have used the Energizer cells as a benchmark to argue strongly that
    the "Power 2000" and "Ultralast" brands are run by fuckheads.

    My concern is that a hell of a lot of other cells are being marketed
    dishonestly. I really wish that NIST or some other standards body would
    establish a standardized test for rating battery capacity.
    --
    David Arnstein | Have fun with your spams:
    | http://www.bluesecurity.com
    David Arnstein, Apr 30, 2006
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. David Arnstein wrote:
    > Before I started buying AA size NiMH cells, I got myself a LaCrosse
    > BC-900 battery charger. ..


    I will only suggest that your test method is not likely to be the same
    as those used to rate the batteries you tested. As far as I know there is
    no recognized standard for testing. So each manufacturer is likely free to
    chose their method, much like the way flashes were measured.

    Your comments do serve a good purpose in that they point out that the
    values reported by the manufacturers may not be the best way of judging
    possible, although for many of us it may be the only practical way.

    Even your test must be suspect as you don't know how old those batteries
    may have been when you obtained them nor did you have a sufficiently wide a
    sample group to assure accurate results.

    I would say your word "dishonest" is not appropriate in this situation.

    --
    Joseph Meehan

    Dia duit
    Joseph Meehan, Apr 30, 2006
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. David Arnstein

    Pete D Guest

    "Joseph Meehan" <> wrote in message
    news:ww05g.23023$...
    > David Arnstein wrote:
    >> Before I started buying AA size NiMH cells, I got myself a LaCrosse
    >> BC-900 battery charger. ..

    >
    > I will only suggest that your test method is not likely to be the same
    > as those used to rate the batteries you tested. As far as I know there is
    > no recognized standard for testing. So each manufacturer is likely free
    > to chose their method, much like the way flashes were measured.
    >
    > Your comments do serve a good purpose in that they point out that the
    > values reported by the manufacturers may not be the best way of judging
    > possible, although for many of us it may be the only practical way.
    >
    > Even your test must be suspect as you don't know how old those
    > batteries may have been when you obtained them nor did you have a
    > sufficiently wide a sample group to assure accurate results.
    >
    > I would say your word "dishonest" is not appropriate in this situation.
    >
    > --
    > Joseph Meehan
    >
    > Dia duit


    It does however show that the Energisers are pretty reasonable, I will keep
    using the 6 or 7 sets that I have.
    Pete D, Apr 30, 2006
    #3
  4. David Arnstein

    J. Clarke Guest

    David Arnstein wrote:

    > Before I started buying AA size NiMH cells, I got myself a LaCrosse
    > BC-900 battery charger. This helps me to evaluate the cells that I buy.
    > The charger can measure the capacity of cells (as measured in mAH) and
    > it can perform a "refresh cycle." This procedure repeatedly charges and
    > discharges the cells, measuring the capacity of the cells after each
    > repetition. As long as the capacity is increasing, the cycle continues.
    >
    > This "refresh cycle" is very useful in testing new cells, since the
    > cells need a few discharge cycles before their best capacity is achieved.
    >
    > Another feature of the LaCrosse BC-900 is that it can charge and discharge
    > cells quite slowly: as slow as 200 mA charge and 100 mA discharge. In
    > my testing, I used this setting uniformly. I presume that this results
    > in the most optimistic results when testing my cells.
    >
    > So I set to work testing some cells that I purchased.
    >
    > The first thing that I learned is that the two battery companies "Power
    > 2000" and "Ultralast" are both extremely dishonest. My "Power 2000"
    > cells are labelled as having 2700 mAH capacity. I tested my four cells
    > at 2190, 2120, 2070, and 2140 mAH. My "Ultralast" cells are labelled as
    > having 2600 mAH capacity. I tested my four cells at 2120, 2160, 2150,
    > and 2180 mAH.
    >
    > Avoid these brands! Don't get ripped off and don't reward dishonest
    > business practices!
    >
    > Finally, I purchased some Energizer AA cells marked as having 2500 mAH
    > capacity. There seems to be a respectable consensus on this news group
    > (and elsewhere) that these are good cells. I just finished testing them
    > at 2330, 2350, 2310, and 2360 mAH. Still not as marked, so I was
    > disappointed.
    >
    > One other test: The LaCrosse charger is sold with some AA cells marked
    > as having 2000 mAH capacity. I tested them at 1862, 1804, 1850, and
    > 1869 mAH. Again, the marking is just a little dishonest.
    >
    > I am pleased that I purchased the Energizer cells. Note that these cells
    > are marked as having a lower capacity than the "Power 2000" cells and
    > the "Ultralast" cells. Yet, the Energizers test *higher*.
    >
    > I realize that my little BC-900 charger is not god. But I believe that
    > I have used the Energizer cells as a benchmark to argue strongly that
    > the "Power 2000" and "Ultralast" brands are run by fuckheads.
    >
    > My concern is that a hell of a lot of other cells are being marketed
    > dishonestly. I really wish that NIST or some other standards body would
    > establish a standardized test for rating battery capacity.


    Instead of comparing what your charger reports against what someone else
    reported using a different test procedure, you might want to track what
    it's reporting on your batteries over time--I suspect that that feature was
    included to allow you to determine easily when your batteries need to be
    replaced rather than to determine whether they meet the performance level
    marked on the label.

    --
    --John
    to email, dial "usenet" and validate
    (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
    J. Clarke, Apr 30, 2006
    #4
  5. In article <e31t35$s0g$>, David Arnstein
    <> wrote:

    > I realize that my little BC-900 charger is not god. But I believe that
    > I have used the Energizer cells as a benchmark to argue strongly that
    > the "Power 2000" and "Ultralast" brands are run by fuckheads.
    >
    > My concern is that a hell of a lot of other cells are being marketed
    > dishonestly. I really wish that NIST or some other standards body would
    > establish a standardized test for rating battery capacity.


    Thought number one was that since NONE of the cells tested reached
    their rated capacity, your testing method might be inaccurate.

    Thought number two was that, like stereo power ratings used to be, the
    rated capacity can only reached be reached under very specific (and
    non-real world) conditions

    Thought number three is most realistic: For the most part, marketing IS
    calculated dishonesty. Having spent a lot of time selling technology
    products, it's been my experience that unless there is a strict and
    independant rating body, manufacturers take the above paragraph, add
    10-20%, and use that specification to push their goods.
    Scott Schuckert, Apr 30, 2006
    #5
  6. David Arnstein

    m Ransley Guest

    How does you machine verify peak voltage , charge of cells. If it
    measures it by heat, then it is inacurate, the peak charge is acuratly
    measured when voltage drops from the peak. It could be your machine or
    it could be the cells not being grade 1. Or just ratings used for sales,
    perhaps only a certain batch must meet their ratings. Sanyo and
    Panasonic have the best reputation, for a matched pair of the highest
    amp capacity get some Sanyo or Panasonic from a hobby shop that
    specialises in RC equipment. Hobbiests using rechargables can give you
    a better insight to the best cells since they can win or loose a race
    on not getting the best matched cells, that are sold pre graded and
    tested.
    m Ransley, Apr 30, 2006
    #6
  7. David Arnstein

    Paul Rubin Guest

    (David Arnstein) writes:
    > Finally, I purchased some Energizer AA cells marked as having 2500 mAH
    > capacity. There seems to be a respectable consensus on this news group
    > (and elsewhere) that these are good cells. I just finished testing them
    > at 2330, 2350, 2310, and 2360 mAH. Still not as marked, so I was
    > disappointed.


    Do your Energizer 2500's have the "HR" stamp on the bottom? It looks
    like Energizer is now using a mix of different manufactures of cells.
    Energizer cells (2200 and 2500 mah) that I've tested in a BC900 have
    come pretty close to their rated capacity. I did the test at the 500
    mA charge rate, which also might make a difference.
    Paul Rubin, Apr 30, 2006
    #7
  8. David Arnstein

    Guest

    dized test for rating battery capacity.
    >
    >Thought number one was that since NONE of the cells tested reached
    >their rated capacity, your testing method might be inaccurate.


    If you are talking accuracy.......... then it would be more accurate
    to say that the manufacturers testing methods are not accurate in that
    they do not reflect real world performance. The testers "method" is a
    more accurate representation of what a consumer would realize.
    , Apr 30, 2006
    #8
  9. David Arnstein

    Stephen Guest

    On Sun, 30 Apr 2006 08:39:01 +0000 (UTC), (David
    Arnstein) had a flock of green cheek conures squawk out:

    >Before I started buying AA size NiMH cells, I got myself a LaCrosse
    >BC-900 battery charger. This helps me to evaluate the cells that I buy.
    >The charger can measure the capacity of cells (as measured in mAH) and
    >it can perform a "refresh cycle." This procedure repeatedly charges and
    >discharges the cells, measuring the capacity of the cells after each
    >repetition. As long as the capacity is increasing, the cycle continues.
    >
    >This "refresh cycle" is very useful in testing new cells, since the
    >cells need a few discharge cycles before their best capacity is achieved.
    >
    >Another feature of the LaCrosse BC-900 is that it can charge and discharge
    >cells quite slowly: as slow as 200 mA charge and 100 mA discharge. In
    >my testing, I used this setting uniformly. I presume that this results
    >in the most optimistic results when testing my cells.
    >
    >So I set to work testing some cells that I purchased.
    >
    >The first thing that I learned is that the two battery companies "Power
    >2000" and "Ultralast" are both extremely dishonest. My "Power 2000"
    >cells are labelled as having 2700 mAH capacity. I tested my four cells
    >at 2190, 2120, 2070, and 2140 mAH. My "Ultralast" cells are labelled as
    >having 2600 mAH capacity. I tested my four cells at 2120, 2160, 2150,
    >and 2180 mAH.
    >
    >Avoid these brands! Don't get ripped off and don't reward dishonest
    >business practices!


    You didn't test at the same stop voltage, temperature and load that
    the battery company did.

    The mAH depends on the load, temperature and the voltage you stop the
    test at. Amp/Hour rating in itself is a fraud without knowing the
    specifications it was tested to.


    Stephen
    --
    Stephen, Apr 30, 2006
    #9
  10. David Arnstein

    Bob Salomon Guest

    In article <>,
    wrote:

    > The testers "method" is a
    > more accurate representation of what a consumer would realize.


    Who makes batteries designed for just testing?

    Put them in your camera and see how they perform.

    --
    To reply no_ HPMarketing Corp.
    Bob Salomon, Apr 30, 2006
    #10
  11. David Arnstein

    Paul Rubin Guest

    Bob Salomon <> writes:
    > Who makes batteries designed for just testing?
    > Put them in your camera and see how they perform.


    If test results don't mean anything, then the manufacturers shouldn't
    print those alleged capacity measurements on the batteries.
    Paul Rubin, Apr 30, 2006
    #11
  12. David Arnstein

    Guest

    On 30 Apr 2006 09:52:57 -0700, Paul Rubin
    <http://> wrote:

    >Bob Salomon <> writes:
    >> Who makes batteries designed for just testing?
    >> Put them in your camera and see how they perform.

    >
    >If test results don't mean anything, then the manufacturers shouldn't
    >print those alleged capacity measurements on the batteries.


    MPG figures for automobiles are accurate also? My point is that the
    manufacturers test may be accurate but the parameters are not.
    , Apr 30, 2006
    #12
  13. In article <>,
    Paul Rubin <http://> wrote:
    >Do your Energizer 2500's have the "HR" stamp on the bottom? It looks
    >like Energizer is now using a mix of different manufactures of cells.
    >Energizer cells (2200 and 2500 mah) that I've tested in a BC900 have
    >come pretty close to their rated capacity. I did the test at the 500
    >mA charge rate, which also might make a difference.


    Thank you for your response Mr. Rubin. Yes, my four Energizer 2500's
    each have a tiny "HR" stamped into their bottom ends.

    A question for you: do you think that testing would be more optimistic
    (higher capacities reported) if I switch to the 500 mA charge rate? I
    blindly assumed that the most gentle 200/100 mA cycle would result in
    the most optimistic results.
    --
    David Arnstein | Have fun with your spams:
    | http://www.bluesecurity.com
    David Arnstein, Apr 30, 2006
    #13
  14. David Arnstein

    Paul Rubin Guest

    writes:
    > MPG figures for automobiles are accurate also? My point is that the
    > manufacturers test may be accurate but the parameters are not.


    MPG numbers can be expected to have some validity for comparison
    purposes. Bob's advice is along the lines of "ignore the MPG figure
    completely, just buy the car and see what mileage it gets", e.g., that
    a manufacturer shouldn't be taken to task for rating their car "300
    mpg" when it actually gets worse mileage than a Hummer.
    Paul Rubin, Apr 30, 2006
    #14
  15. David Arnstein

    SMS Guest

    David Arnstein wrote:
    > Before I started buying AA size NiMH cells, I got myself a LaCrosse
    > BC-900 battery charger. This helps me to evaluate the cells that I buy.
    > The charger can measure the capacity of cells (as measured in mAH) and
    > it can perform a "refresh cycle." This procedure repeatedly charges and
    > discharges the cells, measuring the capacity of the cells after each
    > repetition. As long as the capacity is increasing, the cycle continues.


    If you are within 5% of the rated capacity then that's pretty good.

    At the "Great Battery Shootout" Several of the battery brands achieved
    the 5% threshhold.

    Stick with Sanyo, as they are very conservative as to capacity.

    See "http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=79302"

    The LaCrosse charger won't give an accurate absolute indication of the
    cells rating, though it's good for comparing cells against each other.

    Steve
    http://batterydata.com
    SMS, Apr 30, 2006
    #15
  16. David Arnstein

    Paul Rubin Guest

    (David Arnstein) writes:
    > A question for you: do you think that testing would be more optimistic
    > (higher capacities reported) if I switch to the 500 mA charge rate?


    I've heard that it does.
    Paul Rubin, Apr 30, 2006
    #16
  17. David Arnstein

    Ron Hunter Guest

    David Arnstein wrote:
    > Before I started buying AA size NiMH cells, I got myself a LaCrosse
    > BC-900 battery charger. This helps me to evaluate the cells that I buy.
    > The charger can measure the capacity of cells (as measured in mAH) and
    > it can perform a "refresh cycle." This procedure repeatedly charges and
    > discharges the cells, measuring the capacity of the cells after each
    > repetition. As long as the capacity is increasing, the cycle continues.
    >
    > This "refresh cycle" is very useful in testing new cells, since the
    > cells need a few discharge cycles before their best capacity is achieved.
    >
    > Another feature of the LaCrosse BC-900 is that it can charge and discharge
    > cells quite slowly: as slow as 200 mA charge and 100 mA discharge. In
    > my testing, I used this setting uniformly. I presume that this results
    > in the most optimistic results when testing my cells.
    >
    > So I set to work testing some cells that I purchased.
    >
    > The first thing that I learned is that the two battery companies "Power
    > 2000" and "Ultralast" are both extremely dishonest. My "Power 2000"
    > cells are labelled as having 2700 mAH capacity. I tested my four cells
    > at 2190, 2120, 2070, and 2140 mAH. My "Ultralast" cells are labelled as
    > having 2600 mAH capacity. I tested my four cells at 2120, 2160, 2150,
    > and 2180 mAH.
    >
    > Avoid these brands! Don't get ripped off and don't reward dishonest
    > business practices!
    >
    > Finally, I purchased some Energizer AA cells marked as having 2500 mAH
    > capacity. There seems to be a respectable consensus on this news group
    > (and elsewhere) that these are good cells. I just finished testing them
    > at 2330, 2350, 2310, and 2360 mAH. Still not as marked, so I was
    > disappointed.
    >
    > One other test: The LaCrosse charger is sold with some AA cells marked
    > as having 2000 mAH capacity. I tested them at 1862, 1804, 1850, and
    > 1869 mAH. Again, the marking is just a little dishonest.
    >
    > I am pleased that I purchased the Energizer cells. Note that these cells
    > are marked as having a lower capacity than the "Power 2000" cells and
    > the "Ultralast" cells. Yet, the Energizers test *higher*.
    >
    > I realize that my little BC-900 charger is not god. But I believe that
    > I have used the Energizer cells as a benchmark to argue strongly that
    > the "Power 2000" and "Ultralast" brands are run by fuckheads.
    >
    > My concern is that a hell of a lot of other cells are being marketed
    > dishonestly. I really wish that NIST or some other standards body would
    > establish a standardized test for rating battery capacity.


    Welcome to the wonderful world of marketing. Such specifications are
    'best case', with their own tests, and NOT typical. Let the buyer beware.
    Ron Hunter, Apr 30, 2006
    #17
  18. David Arnstein

    Bill KB3GUN Guest

    "Ron Hunter" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > David Arnstein wrote:
    >> Before I started buying AA size NiMH cells, I got myself a LaCrosse
    >> BC-900 battery charger. This helps me to evaluate the cells that I buy.
    >> The charger can measure the capacity of cells (as measured in mAH) and
    >> it can perform a "refresh cycle." This procedure repeatedly charges and
    >> discharges the cells, measuring the capacity of the cells after each
    >> repetition. As long as the capacity is increasing, the cycle continues.
    >>
    >> This "refresh cycle" is very useful in testing new cells, since the
    >> cells need a few discharge cycles before their best capacity is achieved.
    >>
    >> Another feature of the LaCrosse BC-900 is that it can charge and
    >> discharge
    >> cells quite slowly: as slow as 200 mA charge and 100 mA discharge. In
    >> my testing, I used this setting uniformly. I presume that this results
    >> in the most optimistic results when testing my cells.
    >>
    >> So I set to work testing some cells that I purchased.



    So, is your BC-900 battery charger calibrated? Is there a tolerance of error
    on its readings? Did you try your test with a variety of testers or just the
    one? A $45 battery charger is nowhere near what you need for a true test of
    battery capacity. All your test shows is how the different batteries tested
    in one device. That's not enough data to formulate a conclusion.

    I use my camera as my battery tester. It's not scientific but it does what I
    need it to do.

    -Smitty
    Bill KB3GUN, Apr 30, 2006
    #18
  19. David Arnstein

    Pete D Guest

    And who calibrated your charger and made you the world authority??

    "David Arnstein" <> wrote in message
    news:e31t35$s0g$...
    > Before I started buying AA size NiMH cells, I got myself a LaCrosse
    > BC-900 battery charger. This helps me to evaluate the cells that I buy.
    > The charger can measure the capacity of cells (as measured in mAH) and
    > it can perform a "refresh cycle." This procedure repeatedly charges and
    > discharges the cells, measuring the capacity of the cells after each
    > repetition. As long as the capacity is increasing, the cycle continues.
    >
    > This "refresh cycle" is very useful in testing new cells, since the
    > cells need a few discharge cycles before their best capacity is achieved.
    >
    > Another feature of the LaCrosse BC-900 is that it can charge and discharge
    > cells quite slowly: as slow as 200 mA charge and 100 mA discharge. In
    > my testing, I used this setting uniformly. I presume that this results
    > in the most optimistic results when testing my cells.
    >
    > So I set to work testing some cells that I purchased.
    >
    > The first thing that I learned is that the two battery companies "Power
    > 2000" and "Ultralast" are both extremely dishonest. My "Power 2000"
    > cells are labelled as having 2700 mAH capacity. I tested my four cells
    > at 2190, 2120, 2070, and 2140 mAH. My "Ultralast" cells are labelled as
    > having 2600 mAH capacity. I tested my four cells at 2120, 2160, 2150,
    > and 2180 mAH.
    >
    > Avoid these brands! Don't get ripped off and don't reward dishonest
    > business practices!
    >
    > Finally, I purchased some Energizer AA cells marked as having 2500 mAH
    > capacity. There seems to be a respectable consensus on this news group
    > (and elsewhere) that these are good cells. I just finished testing them
    > at 2330, 2350, 2310, and 2360 mAH. Still not as marked, so I was
    > disappointed.
    >
    > One other test: The LaCrosse charger is sold with some AA cells marked
    > as having 2000 mAH capacity. I tested them at 1862, 1804, 1850, and
    > 1869 mAH. Again, the marking is just a little dishonest.
    >
    > I am pleased that I purchased the Energizer cells. Note that these cells
    > are marked as having a lower capacity than the "Power 2000" cells and
    > the "Ultralast" cells. Yet, the Energizers test *higher*.
    >
    > I realize that my little BC-900 charger is not god. But I believe that
    > I have used the Energizer cells as a benchmark to argue strongly that
    > the "Power 2000" and "Ultralast" brands are run by fuckheads.
    >
    > My concern is that a hell of a lot of other cells are being marketed
    > dishonestly. I really wish that NIST or some other standards body would
    > establish a standardized test for rating battery capacity.
    > --
    > David Arnstein | Have fun with your spams:
    > | http://www.bluesecurity.com
    Pete D, Apr 30, 2006
    #19
  20. David Arnstein

    SMS Guest

    Ron Hunter wrote:

    > Welcome to the wonderful world of marketing. Such specifications are
    > 'best case', with their own tests, and NOT typical. Let the buyer beware.


    I would look at the chart at
    "http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=79302" and reject
    any battery that was more than 8% less than the rated capacity.

    Assuming that no one is buying sub-2300mAH cells anymore, this would
    eliminate the Energizer 2500, Titanium 2600, Accupower 2600, Titanium
    2400, and the Sony 2300.

    The Sanyo 2500 mAH batteries are the safest choice, and a good deal at
    4/$9. The Costco bundle of an excellent charger, 6 AA 2500 mAH, and 2
    AAA 900 mAH for $20, is a good deal. The charger is essentially only $2,
    using the battery pricing at Thomas-Distributing.

    Steve
    http://batterydata.com/
    SMS, Apr 30, 2006
    #20
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