Ah, Ballmer...

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Aug 30, 2009.

  1. <http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10301028-16.html>:

    “The problem you have with these so-called free alternatives is there’s
    also not the incentive to a lot of the hard work to build out the
    ecosystem to support the hardware vendors that is required.â€

    Yet, in spite of that, Linux still manages to support a broader range of
    hardware than Windows has ever managed, or ever seems likely to manage.
    Wonder how he explains that?
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Aug 30, 2009
    #1
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  2. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Nik Coughlin Guest

    "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in message
    news:h7dgj6$b4k$...
    > Linux still manages to support a broader range of hardware than Windows
    > has ever managed, or ever seems likely to manage.


    [Citation Needed]
    Nik Coughlin, Aug 30, 2009
    #2
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  3. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    victor Guest

    Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    > <http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10301028-16.html>:
    >
    > “The problem you have with these so-called free alternatives is there’s
    > also not the incentive to a lot of the hard work to build out the
    > ecosystem to support the hardware vendors that is required.â€
    >


    TMML

    http://www.linuxfoundation.org/about/members

    http://www.linuxfoundation.org/about/board-members

    Microsoft wants you to believe these guys are backyard tinkerers.
    victor, Aug 30, 2009
    #3
  4. In message <h7esb0$453$-september.org>, Nik Coughlin wrote:

    > "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in message
    > news:h7dgj6$b4k$...
    >
    >> Linux still manages to support a broader range of hardware than Windows
    >> has ever managed, or ever seems likely to manage.

    >
    > [Citation Needed]


    <http://groups.google.co.nz/group/nz.comp/msg/4d159e390ab364a4>

    Do try to keep up at the back...
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Aug 31, 2009
    #4
  5. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Nik Coughlin Guest

    "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in message
    news:h7f32p$98c$...
    > In message <h7esb0$453$-september.org>, Nik Coughlin wrote:
    >
    >> "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in message
    >> news:h7dgj6$b4k$...
    >>
    >>> Linux still manages to support a broader range of hardware than Windows
    >>> has ever managed, or ever seems likely to manage.

    >>
    >> [Citation Needed]

    >
    > <http://groups.google.co.nz/group/nz.comp/msg/4d159e390ab364a4>
    >
    > Do try to keep up at the back...


    Not everyone has time to read everything that you post Lawrence.

    A thread about an article that suggests that driver support has become quite
    good?

    I don't think that's proof of your assertion.

    I wouldn't like to take a guess either way.
    Nik Coughlin, Aug 31, 2009
    #5
  6. .... and then they fight you ...

    <http://dir.salon.com/tech/log/2001/02/15/unamerican/>
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Aug 31, 2009
    #6
  7. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Gordon Guest

    On 2009-08-30, Nik Coughlin <> wrote:
    > "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in message
    > news:h7dgj6$b4k$...
    >> Linux still manages to support a broader range of hardware than Windows
    >> has ever managed, or ever seems likely to manage.

    >
    > [Citation Needed]
    >

    Hang on in there, Time will be around to attent to you. ;-
    Gordon, Aug 31, 2009
    #7
  8. In message <h7f3l9$b7p$-september.org>, Nik Coughlin wrote:

    > "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in message
    > news:h7f32p$98c$...
    >
    >> In message <h7esb0$453$-september.org>, Nik Coughlin wrote:
    >>
    >>> "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in
    >>> message news:h7dgj6$b4k$...
    >>>
    >>>> Linux still manages to support a broader range of hardware than Windows
    >>>> has ever managed, or ever seems likely to manage.
    >>>
    >>> [Citation Needed]

    >>
    >> <http://groups.google.co.nz/group/nz.comp/msg/4d159e390ab364a4>
    >>
    >> Do try to keep up at the back...

    >
    > Not everyone has time to read everything that you post Lawrence.


    And you couldn't even search this noisegroup for "linux hardware"? (That's
    how I found that previous posting.)

    I intend a lot of my postings here to be archived for future reference.
    That's how I treat them, and I encourage others to do the same.

    > A thread about an article that suggests that driver support has become
    > quite good?


    It gives the citations you asked for. You want more? Have a look at the
    actual Linux sources. Or go here
    <http://lxr.linux.no/#linux+v2.6.30.5/drivers/> if you don't have them
    handy. Feel free to name some device that doesn't seem to be covered.

    Oh, and notice that that whole tree is separate from the "arch" tree? That
    means it's not architecture-specific--if a hardware device can plug into a
    machine running a particular architecture, then the driver should be
    available for that kernel.

    Now, some citations are needed for devices that Windows supports, that Linux
    doesn't. Any volunteers?
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Aug 31, 2009
    #8
  9. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    AD. Guest

    On Aug 31, 9:53 am, "Nik Coughlin" <> wrote:
    > "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in message
    >
    > news:h7dgj6$b4k$...
    >
    > > Linux still manages to support a broader range of hardware than Windows
    > > has ever managed, or ever seems likely to manage.

    >
    > [Citation Needed]


    It all depends on how 'hardware' is defined - eg peripherals or
    systems/architectures.

    Peripherals would be a win for Windows, but for systems/architectures
    it is Linux that wins that one.

    --
    Cheers
    Anton
    AD., Aug 31, 2009
    #9
  10. In message
    <>, AD.
    wrote:

    > Peripherals would be a win for Windows ...


    Not so sure. If you stick to current hardware on a current OS version,
    Windows may just about be as good as Linux. But as soon as you bring in
    older hardware, Linux will have the edge.
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Sep 1, 2009
    #10
  11. On Tue, 01 Sep 2009 11:24:45 +1200, Lawrence D'Oliveiro
    <_zealand> wrote:

    >In message
    ><>, AD.
    >wrote:
    >
    >> Peripherals would be a win for Windows ...

    >
    >Not so sure. If you stick to current hardware on a current OS version,
    >Windows may just about be as good as Linux. But as soon as you bring in
    >older hardware, Linux will have the edge.


    There are a fair few TV tuners that Linux does not yet support but
    which plug straight into Vista. Finding ones that are supported in
    Linux is still a bit difficult. But once they are supported, the
    support stays. I have an old PCI analogue tuner/capture card (MSI
    TV@Anywhere Master), and it is no longer supported in Windows unless I
    run XP. There is no incentive for manufacturers to update drivers for
    new Windows systems unless they are still selling the hardware. With
    open-source Linux drivers, ongoing support is not a problem.
    Stephen Worthington, Sep 1, 2009
    #11
  12. In message <>, Stephen Worthington
    wrote:

    > There are a fair few TV tuners that Linux does not yet support but
    > which plug straight into Vista.


    Name one.

    > But once they are supported [in Linux], the support stays.


    And you also get both 32-bit and 64-bit support.

    > There is no incentive for manufacturers to update drivers for
    > new Windows systems unless they are still selling the hardware.


    That is absolutely the fundamental problem with depending on hardware
    vendors to write the driver software. It's a cost to them, it doesn't
    directly bring in any revenue. So they have this tendency to cut corners
    where they can.
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Sep 1, 2009
    #12
  13. Stephen Worthington, Sep 1, 2009
    #13
  14. In message <>, Stephen Worthington wrote:

    > On Tue, 01 Sep 2009 18:53:51 +1200, Lawrence D'Oliveiro
    > <_zealand> wrote:
    >
    >>In message <>, Stephen
    >>Worthington wrote:
    >>
    >>> There are a fair few TV tuners that Linux does not yet support but
    >>> which plug straight into Vista.

    >>
    >>Name one.

    >
    > http://www.avermedia.com/avertv/Product/ProductDetail.aspx?Id=20


    Looks like it's this SAA 7162 chipset
    <http://www.xpmediacentre.com.au/community/tuners/38704-saa-7162-linux.html>,
    with some software available here <http://www.jusst.de/hg/saa716x/>.
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Sep 1, 2009
    #14
  15. On Tue, 01 Sep 2009 23:17:48 +1200, Lawrence D'Oliveiro
    <_zealand> wrote:

    >In message <>, Stephen Worthington wrote:
    >
    >> On Tue, 01 Sep 2009 18:53:51 +1200, Lawrence D'Oliveiro
    >> <_zealand> wrote:
    >>
    >>>In message <>, Stephen
    >>>Worthington wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> There are a fair few TV tuners that Linux does not yet support but
    >>>> which plug straight into Vista.
    >>>
    >>>Name one.

    >>
    >> http://www.avermedia.com/avertv/Product/ProductDetail.aspx?Id=20

    >
    >Looks like it's this SAA 7162 chipset
    ><http://www.xpmediacentre.com.au/community/tuners/38704-saa-7162-linux.html>,
    >with some software available here <http://www.jusst.de/hg/saa716x/>.


    How did you work out what chipset it uses?

    Even if it is that chipset, that does not mean those drivers will
    work. Boards often have little quirks that mean that generic drivers
    will not work. And I have not had very good luck with installing
    drivers from source code - I really need a kernel that just recognises
    the card. Vista runs it fine after you install the downloaded BDA
    drivers.
    Stephen Worthington, Sep 1, 2009
    #15
  16. In message <>, Stephen Worthington
    wrote:

    > On Tue, 01 Sep 2009 23:17:48 +1200, Lawrence D'Oliveiro
    > <_zealand> wrote:
    >
    >>In message <>, Stephen
    >>Worthington wrote:
    >>
    >>> On Tue, 01 Sep 2009 18:53:51 +1200, Lawrence D'Oliveiro
    >>> <_zealand> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>In message <>, Stephen
    >>>>Worthington wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> There are a fair few TV tuners that Linux does not yet support but
    >>>>> which plug straight into Vista.
    >>>>
    >>>>Name one.
    >>>
    >>> http://www.avermedia.com/avertv/Product/ProductDetail.aspx?Id=20

    >>
    >>Looks like it's this SAA 7162 chipset
    >><http://www.xpmediacentre.com.au/community/tuners/38704-saa-7162-

    linux.html>,
    >>with some software available here <http://www.jusst.de/hg/saa716x/>.

    >
    > How did you work out what chipset it uses?


    Try taking a look at the card and see what labels you can find on the chips.
    Start with the largest chip.

    > Even if it is that chipset, that does not mean those drivers will
    > work.


    I have presented my evidence to refute your claim. You're the one with the
    card, the onus is now on you to confirm whether that Linux driver works as
    well as the Windows ones or not.

    Otherwise you're just blowin' smoke.
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Sep 2, 2009
    #16
  17. On Wed, 02 Sep 2009 12:48:26 +1200, Lawrence D'Oliveiro
    <_zealand> wrote:

    >In message <>, Stephen Worthington
    >wrote:
    >
    >> On Tue, 01 Sep 2009 23:17:48 +1200, Lawrence D'Oliveiro
    >> <_zealand> wrote:
    >>
    >>>In message <>, Stephen
    >>>Worthington wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> On Tue, 01 Sep 2009 18:53:51 +1200, Lawrence D'Oliveiro
    >>>> <_zealand> wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>>In message <>, Stephen
    >>>>>Worthington wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> There are a fair few TV tuners that Linux does not yet support but
    >>>>>> which plug straight into Vista.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>Name one.
    >>>>
    >>>> http://www.avermedia.com/avertv/Product/ProductDetail.aspx?Id=20
    >>>
    >>>Looks like it's this SAA 7162 chipset
    >>><http://www.xpmediacentre.com.au/community/tuners/38704-saa-7162-

    >linux.html>,
    >>>with some software available here <http://www.jusst.de/hg/saa716x/>.

    >>
    >> How did you work out what chipset it uses?

    >
    >Try taking a look at the card and see what labels you can find on the chips.
    >Start with the largest chip.
    >
    >> Even if it is that chipset, that does not mean those drivers will
    >> work.

    >
    >I have presented my evidence to refute your claim. You're the one with the
    >card, the onus is now on you to confirm whether that Linux driver works as
    >well as the Windows ones or not.
    >
    >Otherwise you're just blowin' smoke.


    The card is in my Vista box, and is in constant use recording TV. So
    you expect me to uninstall it and move it to my MythTV box (where it
    will not physically fit, due to the PCIe slot arrangement and the size
    of the heatsink on the silent video card), just to satisfy you. No
    thanks. I will wait until Mythbuntu 9.10 is released - the live CD
    should detect the card if the drivers are in the kernel by then.
    Stephen Worthington, Sep 2, 2009
    #17
  18. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    JohnO Guest

    On Sep 1, 11:17 pm, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <l...@geek-
    central.gen.new_zealand> wrote:
    > In message <>, Stephen Worthington wrote:
    >
    > > On Tue, 01 Sep 2009 18:53:51 +1200, Lawrence D'Oliveiro
    > > <_zealand> wrote:

    >
    > >>In message <>, Stephen
    > >>Worthington wrote:

    >
    > >>> There are a fair few TV tuners that Linux does not yet support but
    > >>> which plug straight into Vista.

    >
    > >>Name one.

    >
    > >http://www.avermedia.com/avertv/Product/ProductDetail.aspx?Id=20

    >
    > Looks like it's this SAA 7162 chipset
    > <http://www.xpmediacentre.com.au/community/tuners/38704-saa-7162-linux...>,
    > with some software available here <http://www.jusst.de/hg/saa716x/>.


    Last time I was seriously messing with MythTV the support for a number
    of the Hauppauge InTV cards was awful. It may be better now but that
    was my experience.

    IIRC Hauppauge didn't release their SDK to the linux community back
    then so it took a long time to write linux device drivers.
    JohnO, Sep 2, 2009
    #18
  19. In message <>, Stephen Worthington
    wrote:

    > On Wed, 02 Sep 2009 12:48:26 +1200, Lawrence D'Oliveiro
    > <_zealand> wrote:
    >
    >>I have presented my evidence to refute your claim. You're the one with the
    >>card, the onus is now on you to confirm whether that Linux driver works as
    >>well as the Windows ones or not.
    >>
    >>Otherwise you're just blowin' smoke.

    >
    > The card is in my Vista box, and is in constant use recording TV. So
    > you expect me to uninstall it and move it to my MythTV box (where it
    > will not physically fit, due to the PCIe slot arrangement and the size
    > of the heatsink on the silent video card), just to satisfy you. No
    > thanks.


    You were the one who tried to put this card forward as an example of
    something that Linux supposedly does not support.

    NEXT!
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Sep 2, 2009
    #19
  20. On Wed, 02 Sep 2009 17:42:19 +1200, Lawrence D'Oliveiro
    <_zealand> wrote:

    >In message <>, Stephen Worthington
    >wrote:
    >
    >> On Wed, 02 Sep 2009 12:48:26 +1200, Lawrence D'Oliveiro
    >> <_zealand> wrote:
    >>
    >>>I have presented my evidence to refute your claim. You're the one with the
    >>>card, the onus is now on you to confirm whether that Linux driver works as
    >>>well as the Windows ones or not.
    >>>
    >>>Otherwise you're just blowin' smoke.

    >>
    >> The card is in my Vista box, and is in constant use recording TV. So
    >> you expect me to uninstall it and move it to my MythTV box (where it
    >> will not physically fit, due to the PCIe slot arrangement and the size
    >> of the heatsink on the silent video card), just to satisfy you. No
    >> thanks.

    >
    >You were the one who tried to put this card forward as an example of
    >something that Linux supposedly does not support.


    And some googling still does not show anyone using this card with
    Linux, so I am very probably right that it is not supported yet.

    >NEXT!
    Stephen Worthington, Sep 2, 2009
    #20
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