Adobe and America go from an ownership to a rental economy

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by RichA, May 8, 2013.

  1. RichA

    J. Clarke Guest

    In article <CDB51792.9B7B7%>,
    says...
    >
    > On 5/12/13 5:02 AM, in article ,
    > "J. Clarke" <> wrote:
    >
    > > In article <>, tonycooper214
    > > @gmail.com says...
    > >>
    > >> On Sat, 11 May 2013 11:31:49 -0400, nospam <>
    > >> wrote:
    > >>
    > >>> In article <>, Tony Cooper
    > >>> <> wrote:
    > >>>
    > >>>>>>> it has nothing to do with macs. with rare
    > >>>>>>> exception, products that do more cost more. no surprise there.
    > >>>>>>>
    > >>>>>>> if macs are priced too high to attract the user that doesn't need all
    > >>>>>>> those specs, then so are similar pcs. why doesn't he mention those?
    > >>>>>>
    > >>>>>> The lowest priced Mac is higher in price than many PCs.
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>> only because it has better specs, not because it's a mac.
    > >>>>
    > >>>> Of course it's because it's a Mac. Who do you think decides what
    > >>>> features/specs a model will have?
    > >>>
    > >>> no, not because it's a mac.
    > >>>
    > >> We are getting to the point here where I can't believe that you are
    > >> serious about what you say. You are denying, apparently, that Apple
    > >> isn't making the decision to offer laptops that are priced higher -but
    > >> offer more features- than many PC laptops. If the manufacturer of the
    > >> product does not make the decision of what to offer, who does?
    > >>
    > >>> the price is higher because it has better specs, just as a similar spec
    > >>> lenovo or acer or sony would be priced higher than the 'many pcs'
    > >>> you're talking about.
    > >>
    > >> Do you deny, though, that many PCs are priced lower than the minimum
    > >> offerings by Mac? The question isn't about "why", but about whether
    > >> or not the statement is true. You are arguing a point not made.
    > >>>
    > >>>>> a similar spec pc will have a higher price than those 'many pcs' you're
    > >>>>> talking about.
    > >>>>
    > >>>> Certainly. But that's not what was said. The statement "The lowest
    > >>>> priced Mac is higher in price than many PCs" is patently obvious and
    > >>>> true.
    > >>>
    > >>> it's a misleading statement and you aren't going to get away with 'but
    > >>> it's true' excuse.
    > >>
    > >> No, it's not misleading at all. It's absolutely and obviously true
    > >> and misleads no one.
    > >>
    > >>> the lowest price mac also does a whole lot more than many pcs, which is
    > >>> why it costs more. that's *also* patently obvious and true.
    > >>
    > >> Well, I'm not sure that "do a lot more" is necessarily true. All
    > >> laptops, essentially, do the same thing. The OS may allow one to do
    > >> something better, the screen may present a clearer image, the
    > >> mechanical components may be of better quality...but they basically
    > >> all do the same thing. There are some things, like a built-in video
    > >> camera, that are not present in all laptops, but that's about it for
    > >> "do".

    > >
    > > And where is the Macbook tablet? My Thinkpad tablet is so old that it
    > > had XP on it when I got it. But Apple has never put a penabled screen
    > > on a Macbook.
    > >

    >
    > It didn't work for PC,


    That's odd, the one in my lap at the moment is working fine. In what
    sense did "it" "not work"? Lenovo just brought out another generation
    of such machines. So did Fujitsu. They all seem to work fine.

    > why should Apple try such nonsense?


    And that in a nutshell is the problem with Apple fans. The only
    "features" that count are the ones that Apple includes, and features
    that are more difficult to provide but are not available from Apple are
    dismissed as "nonsense".

    > Particularly when
    > they have such a commanding success with the iPad line?


    My Thinkpad was working fine four years before the first ipad shipped.
    It is the second generation of the Thinkpad to have that feature.
     
    J. Clarke, May 12, 2013
    #41
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  2. RichA

    nospam Guest

    In article <>, J. Clarke
    <> wrote:

    > > > And where is the Macbook tablet? My Thinkpad tablet is so old that it
    > > > had XP on it when I got it. But Apple has never put a penabled screen
    > > > on a Macbook.

    > >
    > > It didn't work for PC,

    >
    > That's odd, the one in my lap at the moment is working fine. In what
    > sense did "it" "not work"? Lenovo just brought out another generation
    > of such machines. So did Fujitsu. They all seem to work fine.


    it didn't work in the marketplace.

    pc tablets were a market failure.

    <http://www.boston.com/business/technology/articles/2010/01/24/word_is_a
    pples_getting_ready_to_launch_its_first_tablet_computer/>
    IDC found that only 121,000 ³pure¹¹ tablet-based machines were sold
    last year, along with about a million hybrids, which combine a
    touchscreen and a keyboard. That¹s a fraction of the 165 million
    standard laptop computers sold during the same period.

    > > why should Apple try such nonsense?

    >
    > And that in a nutshell is the problem with Apple fans. The only
    > "features" that count are the ones that Apple includes, and features
    > that are more difficult to provide but are not available from Apple are
    > dismissed as "nonsense".


    it has nothing to do with apple fans.

    apple makes mass market products. why should apple make a product that
    didn't sell particularly well?

    instead, apple created a touch based tablet designed to be used with
    touch and it's hugely successful, so much so that everyone is copying
    it, including microsoft.

    > > Particularly when
    > > they have such a commanding success with the iPad line?

    >
    > My Thinkpad was working fine four years before the first ipad shipped.
    > It is the second generation of the Thinkpad to have that feature.


    so what?

    not enough people bought it. it's a niche product.
     
    nospam, May 12, 2013
    #42
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  3. RichA

    notbob Guest

    On 2013-05-12, android <> wrote:

    > "J. Clarke" <> wrote:


    >> In article <>, says...


    >> > http://www.modbook.com/


    >> Which is not made by Apple.


    > Nooo... It''s a third party modification of an Apple product...


    .....and it's a damn sight far away from being affordable!

    <http://www.powerbookmedic.com/Modbook-Pro-23GHZ-Core-i5-120GB-SSD-4GB-RAM-p-25898.html>

    I'll jes buy a used intuos 3 fer $150 and run it on my linux desktop,
    thank you very much.

    nb
     
    notbob, May 12, 2013
    #43
  4. RichA

    nospam Guest

    In article <>, Tony Cooper
    <> wrote:

    > >> >> The lowest priced Mac is higher in price than many PCs.
    > >> >
    > >> >only because it has better specs, not because it's a mac.
    > >>
    > >> Of course it's because it's a Mac. Who do you think decides what
    > >> features/specs a model will have?

    > >
    > >no, not because it's a mac.

    >
    > We are getting to the point here where I can't believe that you are
    > serious about what you say. You are denying, apparently, that Apple
    > isn't making the decision to offer laptops that are priced higher -but
    > offer more features- than many PC laptops. If the manufacturer of the
    > product does not make the decision of what to offer, who does?


    obviously apple decides what features to put apple products, just as
    lenovo, acer, sony, etc. decide what features to put in their products.

    you're making my point, that it's *specs* that determines price.

    when the specs are similar, the prices are similar. when the specs are
    different, the prices are different.

    this is so obvious that i don't understand why you keep arguing against
    it.

    it's not like designer clothes where the product is basically the same
    and you're paying for the label, or like house-brand items versus
    nationally advertised items in the grocery store, where it *is* the
    same product, but with a different price.

    > >the price is higher because it has better specs, just as a similar spec
    > >lenovo or acer or sony would be priced higher than the 'many pcs'
    > >you're talking about.

    >
    > Do you deny, though, that many PCs are priced lower than the minimum
    > offerings by Mac?


    only because those pcs have lower specs.

    it's not because one is a pc and the other is a mac.

    > The question isn't about "why", but about whether
    > or not the statement is true. You are arguing a point not made.


    it furthers a myth.

    > >> >a similar spec pc will have a higher price than those 'many pcs' you're
    > >> >talking about.
    > >>
    > >> Certainly. But that's not what was said. The statement "The lowest
    > >> priced Mac is higher in price than many PCs" is patently obvious and
    > >> true.

    > >
    > >it's a misleading statement and you aren't going to get away with 'but
    > >it's true' excuse.

    >
    > No, it's not misleading at all. It's absolutely and obviously true
    > and misleads no one.


    saying macs cost more *is* misleading. they do not cost more.

    you are intentionally picking *different* specs to try to prove it.

    the least expensive car costs more than many bicycles. that is
    absolutely and obviously true too. it's also not a particularly useful
    bit of information.

    it's like saying flying on delta costs more than on american airlines,
    but then when you look at the price of the ticket, you see that one
    ticket is an unrestricted refundable first class while the other is in
    the lowest economy fare bucket, non-refundable and with a saturday
    stayover. saying delta costs more might be true, but only because it's
    an f/c ticket versus restricted economy, not because it's delta.

    > >the lowest price mac also does a whole lot more than many pcs, which is
    > >why it costs more. that's *also* patently obvious and true.

    >
    > Well, I'm not sure that "do a lot more" is necessarily true.


    it is true.

    > All laptops, essentially, do the same thing.


    that explains why you don't get it.

    > The OS may allow one to do
    > something better, the screen may present a clearer image, the
    > mechanical components may be of better quality...but they basically
    > all do the same thing. There are some things, like a built-in video
    > camera, that are not present in all laptops, but that's about it for
    > "do".


    no that's not about it, and all those cost money anyway, which is why
    one costs more than another.

    sometimes certain hardware is required for a particular app, such as a
    gpu or a certain amount of memory or a certain size display. if you
    don't have a machine that meets the necessary specs, the app won't
    work, which means one laptop *will* do more than another.

    faster processors means you get more work done in less time. that might
    not matter for email but it *will* matter for things like video
    encoding. nobody wants to wait overnight or even longer to process a
    single video file.

    > >> And what, pray tell, do you think determines price tiers? And who
    > >> determines what they will offer?

    > >
    > >features do, not the logo on the box.

    >
    > Bizarre. Who determines what the features will be if not the people
    > in the company whose logo it is? Features don't make any decisions.
    > They are the result of decisions.


    what's bizarre?

    if two different companies make the same decisions about what specs to
    include and make two products that are very similar if not the same,
    the products will cost about the same.

    computers are not like designer clothing where you *do* pay for the
    logo.
     
    nospam, May 12, 2013
    #44
  5. RichA

    nospam Guest

    In article <>, notbob
    <> wrote:

    > >> > http://www.modbook.com/

    >
    > >> Which is not made by Apple.

    >
    > > Nooo... It''s a third party modification of an Apple product...

    >
    > ....and it's a damn sight far away from being affordable!


    that's mainly because they buy a macbook at retail and then modify it.
    it will *always* cost more than a stock macbook.

    it's also because it's a low volume niche product. they don't sell very
    many.

    > I'll jes buy a used intuos 3 fer $150 and run it on my linux desktop,
    > thank you very much.


    how well does your desktop fold up and fit into a briefcase?
     
    nospam, May 12, 2013
    #45
  6. RichA

    notbob Guest

    On 2013-05-12, nospam <> wrote:

    > how well does your desktop fold up and fit into a briefcase?


    About as well as the larger modbook. Besides, I don't do digital
    graphics while riding my bicycle or whatever a tablet is supposed to
    provide me.

    nb
     
    notbob, May 12, 2013
    #46
  7. RichA

    nospam Guest

    In article <>, notbob
    <> wrote:

    > > how well does your desktop fold up and fit into a briefcase?

    >
    > About as well as the larger modbook.


    your desktop is an inch thick and weighs 5 pounds?

    > Besides, I don't do digital
    > graphics while riding my bicycle or whatever a tablet is supposed to
    > provide me.


    that's good. the last thing anyone needs is someone causing a crash.
     
    nospam, May 12, 2013
    #47
  8. RichA

    Tony Cooper Guest

    On Sun, 12 May 2013 13:31:07 -0400, nospam <>
    wrote:

    >
    >> >the lowest price mac also does a whole lot more than many pcs, which is
    >> >why it costs more. that's *also* patently obvious and true.

    >>
    >> Well, I'm not sure that "do a lot more" is necessarily true.

    >
    >it is true.
    >
    >> All laptops, essentially, do the same thing.

    >
    >that explains why you don't get it.
    >
    >> The OS may allow one to do
    >> something better, the screen may present a clearer image, the
    >> mechanical components may be of better quality...but they basically
    >> all do the same thing. There are some things, like a built-in video
    >> camera, that are not present in all laptops, but that's about it for
    >> "do".

    >
    >no that's not about it, and all those cost money anyway, which is why
    >one costs more than another.
    >
    >sometimes certain hardware is required for a particular app, such as a
    >gpu or a certain amount of memory or a certain size display. if you
    >don't have a machine that meets the necessary specs, the app won't
    >work, which means one laptop *will* do more than another.


    All laptops do basically the same thing until you alter them in such a
    way that they are unable to do something. Adding an app that requires
    more memory than the laptop came with is altering the requirements for
    the laptop.

    You are the one that came up with automobile comparisons (so much for
    "this discussion is about..."). If you buy an automobile without a
    towing package, and then decide that you need to pull a heavy trailer,
    you have altered the requirements. You have to add components or buy
    a different vehicle just as you have to add memory or buy a different
    laptop if you try to add an app that won't work with the device as
    purchased.



    --
    Tony Cooper - Orlando FL
     
    Tony Cooper, May 12, 2013
    #48
  9. RichA

    nospam Guest

    In article <>, Tony Cooper
    <> wrote:

    > >> The OS may allow one to do
    > >> something better, the screen may present a clearer image, the
    > >> mechanical components may be of better quality...but they basically
    > >> all do the same thing. There are some things, like a built-in video
    > >> camera, that are not present in all laptops, but that's about it for
    > >> "do".

    > >
    > >no that's not about it, and all those cost money anyway, which is why
    > >one costs more than another.
    > >
    > >sometimes certain hardware is required for a particular app, such as a
    > >gpu or a certain amount of memory or a certain size display. if you
    > >don't have a machine that meets the necessary specs, the app won't
    > >work, which means one laptop *will* do more than another.

    >
    > All laptops do basically the same thing until you alter them in such a
    > way that they are unable to do something. Adding an app that requires
    > more memory than the laptop came with is altering the requirements for
    > the laptop.


    no need to alter them. some laptops do more than others. that you don't
    understand this basic fact explains a lot.

    > You are the one that came up with automobile comparisons (so much for
    > "this discussion is about..."). If you buy an automobile without a
    > towing package, and then decide that you need to pull a heavy trailer,
    > you have altered the requirements. You have to add components or buy
    > a different vehicle just as you have to add memory or buy a different
    > laptop if you try to add an app that won't work with the device as
    > purchased.


    in other words, not all cars do the same thing. some are capable of
    towing and others are not.
     
    nospam, May 12, 2013
    #49
  10. RichA

    PeterN Guest

    On 5/12/2013 1:31 PM, nospam wrote:
    > In article <>, Tony Cooper
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >>>>>> The lowest priced Mac is higher in price than many PCs.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> only because it has better specs, not because it's a mac.
    >>>>
    >>>> Of course it's because it's a Mac. Who do you think decides what
    >>>> features/specs a model will have?
    >>>
    >>> no, not because it's a mac.

    >>
    >> We are getting to the point here where I can't believe that you are
    >> serious about what you say. You are denying, apparently, that Apple
    >> isn't making the decision to offer laptops that are priced higher -but
    >> offer more features- than many PC laptops. If the manufacturer of the
    >> product does not make the decision of what to offer, who does?

    >
    > obviously apple decides what features to put apple products, just as
    > lenovo, acer, sony, etc. decide what features to put in their products.
    >
    > you're making my point, that it's *specs* that determines price.
    >
    > when the specs are similar, the prices are similar. when the specs are
    > different, the prices are different.
    >
    > this is so obvious that i don't understand why you keep arguing against
    > it.
    >
    > it's not like designer clothes where the product is basically the same
    > and you're paying for the label, or like house-brand items versus
    > nationally advertised items in the grocery store, where it *is* the
    > same product, but with a different price.
    >
    >>> the price is higher because it has better specs, just as a similar spec
    >>> lenovo or acer or sony would be priced higher than the 'many pcs'
    >>> you're talking about.

    >>
    >> Do you deny, though, that many PCs are priced lower than the minimum
    >> offerings by Mac?

    >
    > only because those pcs have lower specs.
    >
    > it's not because one is a pc and the other is a mac.
    >
    >> The question isn't about "why", but about whether
    >> or not the statement is true. You are arguing a point not made.

    >
    > it furthers a myth.
    >
    >>>>> a similar spec pc will have a higher price than those 'many pcs' you're
    >>>>> talking about.
    >>>>
    >>>> Certainly. But that's not what was said. The statement "The lowest
    >>>> priced Mac is higher in price than many PCs" is patently obvious and
    >>>> true.
    >>>
    >>> it's a misleading statement and you aren't going to get away with 'but
    >>> it's true' excuse.

    >>
    >> No, it's not misleading at all. It's absolutely and obviously true
    >> and misleads no one.

    >
    > saying macs cost more *is* misleading. they do not cost more.
    >
    > you are intentionally picking *different* specs to try to prove it.
    >
    > the least expensive car costs more than many bicycles. that is
    > absolutely and obviously true too. it's also not a particularly useful
    > bit of information.
    >
    > it's like saying flying on delta costs more than on american airlines,
    > but then when you look at the price of the ticket, you see that one
    > ticket is an unrestricted refundable first class while the other is in
    > the lowest economy fare bucket, non-refundable and with a saturday
    > stayover. saying delta costs more might be true, but only because it's
    > an f/c ticket versus restricted economy, not because it's delta.
    >
    >>> the lowest price mac also does a whole lot more than many pcs, which is
    >>> why it costs more. that's *also* patently obvious and true.

    >>
    >> Well, I'm not sure that "do a lot more" is necessarily true.

    >
    > it is true.
    >
    >> All laptops, essentially, do the same thing.

    >
    > that explains why you don't get it.
    >
    >> The OS may allow one to do
    >> something better, the screen may present a clearer image, the
    >> mechanical components may be of better quality...but they basically
    >> all do the same thing. There are some things, like a built-in video
    >> camera, that are not present in all laptops, but that's about it for
    >> "do".

    >
    > no that's not about it, and all those cost money anyway, which is why
    > one costs more than another.
    >


    Here are the specs for my Lenovo laptop. Tell us the cost of an
    equivalent Mac.
    14" screen
    quad IV processor
    500 gig HD
    16 gig SSD
    8hr battery
    built in card reader
    3 USB ports
    WiFi card
    Blutooth capable.
    3 year onsite service.

    I included only the essential features, for me. All else is fluff.

    my cost was about $1,200
    Tell us what an equivalent Mac notebook would cost.




    --
    PeterN
     
    PeterN, May 13, 2013
    #50
  11. RichA

    J. Clarke Guest

    In article <>,
    says...
    >
    > On 2013-05-12, android <> wrote:
    >
    > > "J. Clarke" <> wrote:

    >
    > >> In article <>, says...

    >
    > >> > http://www.modbook.com/

    >
    > >> Which is not made by Apple.

    >
    > > Nooo... It''s a third party modification of an Apple product...

    >
    > ....and it's a damn sight far away from being affordable!
    >
    > <http://www.powerbookmedic.com/Modbook-Pro-23GHZ-Core-i5-120GB-SSD-4GB-RAM-p-25898.html>
    >
    > I'll jes buy a used intuos 3 fer $150 and run it on my linux desktop,
    > thank you very much.


    Not really the same. I have an Intuos 3 and while it does tricks that a
    Wacom tablet won't, the feedback is different. The tablet is more like
    a baby Cintiq.
     
    J. Clarke, May 13, 2013
    #51
  12. RichA

    nospam Guest

    In article <>, J. Clarke
    <> wrote:

    > > <http://www.powerbookmedic.com/Modbook-Pro-23GHZ-Core-i5-120GB-SSD-4GB-RAM-p-
    > > 25898.html>
    > >
    > > I'll jes buy a used intuos 3 fer $150 and run it on my linux desktop,
    > > thank you very much.

    >
    > Not really the same. I have an Intuos 3 and while it does tricks that a
    > Wacom tablet won't, the feedback is different.


    intuos *is* a wacom tablet.

    > The tablet is more like
    > a baby Cintiq.


    right, the modbook is basically a cintiq+macbook.
     
    nospam, May 13, 2013
    #52
  13. RichA

    J. Clarke Guest

    In article <CDB53020.9B7DC%>,
    says...
    >
    > On 5/12/13 11:22 AM, in article ,
    > "J. Clarke" <> wrote:
    >
    > > In article <CDB51792.9B7B7%>,
    > > says...
    > >>
    > >> On 5/12/13 5:02 AM, in article ,
    > >> "J. Clarke" <> wrote:
    > >>
    > >>> In article <>, tonycooper214
    > >>> @gmail.com says...
    > >>>>
    > >>>> On Sat, 11 May 2013 11:31:49 -0400, nospam <>
    > >>>> wrote:
    > >>>>
    > >>>>> In article <>, Tony Cooper
    > >>>>> <> wrote:
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>>>>>> it has nothing to do with macs. with rare
    > >>>>>>>>> exception, products that do more cost more. no surprise there.
    > >>>>>>>>>
    > >>>>>>>>> if macs are priced too high to attract the user that doesn't need all
    > >>>>>>>>> those specs, then so are similar pcs. why doesn't he mention those?
    > >>>>>>>>
    > >>>>>>>> The lowest priced Mac is higher in price than many PCs.
    > >>>>>>>
    > >>>>>>> only because it has better specs, not because it's a mac.
    > >>>>>>
    > >>>>>> Of course it's because it's a Mac. Who do you think decides what
    > >>>>>> features/specs a model will have?
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>> no, not because it's a mac.
    > >>>>>
    > >>>> We are getting to the point here where I can't believe that you are
    > >>>> serious about what you say. You are denying, apparently, that Apple
    > >>>> isn't making the decision to offer laptops that are priced higher -but
    > >>>> offer more features- than many PC laptops. If the manufacturer of the
    > >>>> product does not make the decision of what to offer, who does?
    > >>>>
    > >>>>> the price is higher because it has better specs, just as a similar spec
    > >>>>> lenovo or acer or sony would be priced higher than the 'many pcs'
    > >>>>> you're talking about.
    > >>>>
    > >>>> Do you deny, though, that many PCs are priced lower than the minimum
    > >>>> offerings by Mac? The question isn't about "why", but about whether
    > >>>> or not the statement is true. You are arguing a point not made.
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>>>> a similar spec pc will have a higher price than those 'many pcs' you're
    > >>>>>>> talking about.
    > >>>>>>
    > >>>>>> Certainly. But that's not what was said. The statement "The lowest
    > >>>>>> priced Mac is higher in price than many PCs" is patently obvious and
    > >>>>>> true.
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>> it's a misleading statement and you aren't going to get away with 'but
    > >>>>> it's true' excuse.
    > >>>>
    > >>>> No, it's not misleading at all. It's absolutely and obviously true
    > >>>> and misleads no one.
    > >>>>
    > >>>>> the lowest price mac also does a whole lot more than many pcs, which is
    > >>>>> why it costs more. that's *also* patently obvious and true.
    > >>>>
    > >>>> Well, I'm not sure that "do a lot more" is necessarily true. All
    > >>>> laptops, essentially, do the same thing. The OS may allow one to do
    > >>>> something better, the screen may present a clearer image, the
    > >>>> mechanical components may be of better quality...but they basically
    > >>>> all do the same thing. There are some things, like a built-in video
    > >>>> camera, that are not present in all laptops, but that's about it for
    > >>>> "do".
    > >>>
    > >>> And where is the Macbook tablet? My Thinkpad tablet is so old that it
    > >>> had XP on it when I got it. But Apple has never put a penabled screen
    > >>> on a Macbook.
    > >>>
    > >>
    > >> It didn't work for PC,

    > >
    > > That's odd, the one in my lap at the moment is working fine. In what
    > > sense did "it" "not work"? Lenovo just brought out another generation
    > > of such machines. So did Fujitsu. They all seem to work fine.
    > >

    >
    > So did the Edsel.


    Except that the Edsel did not go through multiple generations, inspire
    imitators, or get produced by multiple manufacturers.

    > >> why should Apple try such nonsense?

    > >
    > > And that in a nutshell is the problem with Apple fans. The only
    > > "features" that count are the ones that Apple includes, and features
    > > that are more difficult to provide but are not available from Apple are
    > > dismissed as "nonsense".
    > >

    > Because basically NO ONE cares.


    Now you understand. NO ONE CARES about the fancy unnecessary extra
    "features" on your precious little electronic god.

    > If there is no market, why waste production
    > and advertising expense trying to sell ice cubes to Eskimos?


    And yet obviously there is a market. One that Apple ignored.

    > Obviously, by
    > the numbers, the iPad SELLS. If there was a need for a stylus for Apple
    > tablets, there are a number of stylus manufacturers, but the numbers show
    > that most don't give a hoot.


    We were not discussing the kinds of tablets that Apple sells.

    > >> Particularly when
    > >> they have such a commanding success with the iPad line?

    > >
    > > My Thinkpad was working fine four years before the first ipad shipped.
    > > It is the second generation of the Thinkpad to have that feature.
    > >

    >
    > So? Glad that you are happy, you and all of a few hundred others out
    > there...


    So let's see, "a few hundred users" are supporting Lenovo, Panasonic,
    HP, and Fujitsu.
     
    J. Clarke, May 13, 2013
    #53
  14. RichA

    nospam Guest

    In article <>, J. Clarke
    <> wrote:

    > > If there is no market, why waste production
    > > and advertising expense trying to sell ice cubes to Eskimos?

    >
    > And yet obviously there is a market. One that Apple ignored.


    not one big enough for apple to bother with.
     
    nospam, May 13, 2013
    #54
  15. RichA

    android Guest

    In article <>,
    notbob <> wrote:

    > On 2013-05-12, android <> wrote:
    >
    > > "J. Clarke" <> wrote:

    >
    > >> In article <>, says...

    >
    > >> > http://www.modbook.com/

    >
    > >> Which is not made by Apple.

    >
    > > Nooo... It''s a third party modification of an Apple product...

    >
    > ....and it's a damn sight far away from being affordable!
    >
    > <http://www.powerbookmedic.com/Modbook-Pro-23GHZ-Core-i5-120GB-SSD-4GB-RAM-p-2
    > 5898.html>
    >
    > I'll jes buy a used intuos 3 fer $150 and run it on my linux desktop,
    > thank you very much.
    >
    > nb


    I'm not selling it. It's there if you need/want it. Some folks pay
    premium for tools that make them more productive.
    --
    teleportation kills
     
    android, May 13, 2013
    #55
  16. RichA

    android Guest

    In article <120520131331079787%>,
    nospam <> wrote:

    > computers are not like designer clothing where you *do* pay for the
    > logo.


    I don't. Sometimes i do pay extra for stuff that looks good though.
    Sometimes that stuff is "designer"...
    --
    teleportation kills
     
    android, May 13, 2013
    #56
  17. RichA

    Whisky-dave Guest

    On Saturday, May 11, 2013 7:38:37 PM UTC+1, Tony Cooper wrote:
    > On Sat, 11 May 2013 11:31:49 -0400, nospam <>
    >
    > wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    > >In article <>, Tony Cooper

    >
    > ><> wrote:

    >
    > >

    >
    > >> >> > it has nothing to do with macs. with rare

    >
    > >> >> >exception, products that do more cost more. no surprise there.

    >
    > >> >> >

    >
    > >> >> >if macs are priced too high to attract the user that doesn't need all

    >
    > >> >> >those specs, then so are similar pcs. why doesn't he mention those?

    >
    > >> >>

    >
    > >> >> The lowest priced Mac is higher in price than many PCs.

    >
    > >> >

    >
    > >> >only because it has better specs, not because it's a mac.

    >
    > >>

    >
    > >> Of course it's because it's a Mac. Who do you think decides what

    >
    > >> features/specs a model will have?

    >
    > >

    >
    > >no, not because it's a mac.

    >
    > >

    >
    > We are getting to the point here where I can't believe that you are
    >
    > serious about what you say. You are denying, apparently, that Apple
    >
    > isn't making the decision to offer laptops that are priced higher -but
    >
    > offer more features- than many PC laptops. If the manufacturer of the
    >
    > product does not make the decision of what to offer, who does?


    Aple are making computers for a particualar range of person, they know thatI know that so who doesn't know that ?.

    I can even tell you the price of the next Apple product it will be a similar price to the previous product that it's replacing, which shows they are after a market. Apple won't be unvailing a sub 500 UKP computer. They'll stick to the mid-high range products. They won;t introcue a very high end product either such as a cray.
    Most companies work within a set price range Apple are no differnt, they also know they can;t make enough profit from low spec computers as teh margins are to low.



    > >the price is higher because it has better specs, just as a similar spec

    >
    > >lenovo or acer or sony would be priced higher than the 'many pcs'

    >
    > >you're talking about.

    >
    >
    >
    > Do you deny, though, that many PCs are priced lower than the minimum
    >
    > offerings by Mac?


    I'd say that's true and I'd say they are also worth less because of that.
    They're build quality will generally be lower and the specs, while they might look the same on the surface won't perform as well.

    > The question isn't about "why", but about whether
    >
    > or not the statement is true. You are arguing a point not made.


    Seems a rather silly to point out such things.


    > >the lowest price mac also does a whole lot more than many pcs, which is

    >
    > >why it costs more. that's *also* patently obvious and true.

    >
    >
    >
    > Well, I'm not sure that "do a lot more" is necessarily true. All
    >
    > laptops, essentially, do the same thing. The OS may allow one to do
    >
    > something better, the screen may present a clearer image, the
    >
    > mechanical components may be of better quality...but they basically
    >
    > all do the same thing. There are some things, like a built-in video
    >
    > camera, that are not present in all laptops, but that's about it for
    >
    > "do".


    Apart from the suplied software, I can;t believe how useless and unuse friendley windows paint is compared to iPhoto and I use both, or maybe I'm using the wrong product on the windows side to do basic photo editing.
    As for doing more well it's certainly easier and more encouraging on a Mac.
    I'm presently attempting to use an Ardunio board, check out how to install ehm on a PC and on a Mac.

    Installing drivers for the Arduino Uno with Windows7, Vista, or XP:

    •Plug in your board and wait for Windows to begin it's driver installation process. Â After a few moments, the process will fail, despite its bestefforts
    •Click on the Start Menu, and open up the Control Panel.
    •While in the Control Panel, navigate to System and Security. Next, clickon System. Once the System window is up, open the Device Manager.
    •Look under Ports (COM & LPT). Â You should see an open port named "Arduino UNO (COMxx)"
    •Right click on the "Arduino UNO (COmxx)" port and choose the "Update Driver Software" option.
    •Next, choose the "Browse my computer for Driver software" option.
    •Finally, navigate to and select the Uno's driver file, named "ArduinoUNO..inf", located in the "Drivers" folder of the Arduino Software download (not the "FTDI USB Drivers" sub-directory).
    •Windows will finish up the driver installation from there.

    ----------------------
    It took 3 atempts before I got this working and every now and again maybe 1in 5 compiles I get errors which are only resolved by unplugging it and plugging it back in again, and I'm not the first to have found this. This is what I was told by those that have used them on macs and PCs.

    On the Mac there's no driver install as such, you just need to
    Select the serial device of the Arduino board from the Tools > Serial Port menu. On the Mac, this should be something with /dev/tty.usbmodem


    maybe not such a big deal once you know, but yet again shows how less painful a Mac computer can be, and that's before we talk about viruses.

    >
    > >> And what, pray tell, do you think determines price tiers? And who

    >
    > >> determines what they will offer?

    >
    > >

    >
    > >features do, not the logo on the box.

    >
    >
    >
    > Bizarre. Who determines what the features will be if not the people
    >
    > in the company whose logo it is? Features don't make any decisions.
    >
    > They are the result of decisions.


    What features can be offered is determined by price.
    You can get a 750K SSD if you wish and can afford it Apple offer the optionof a fusion drive for those that can't afford such a thing and still wnat a reasonal about of overall storage, it's offer for those that can afford it or think the options is worth the extra.

    >
    >
    >
    > --
    >
    > Tony Cooper - Orlando FL
     
    Whisky-dave, May 13, 2013
    #57
  18. RichA

    Whisky-dave Guest

    On Sunday, May 12, 2013 4:51:27 PM UTC+1, PeterN wrote:
    > On 5/12/2013 11:31 AM, nospam wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    > >

    >
    > > pick the best tool for the job.

    >
    > >

    >
    >
    >
    > Yup!
    >
    > Last November I was looking for a new lightweight computer.
    >
    > At the Apple store they advised me that their was no Apple product that
    >
    > would meet my needs.


    You wanted it to keep crashing and get infrected by viruses on a regular basis?, well what did you expect ;-)





    Which one did you get and were they any other requirments that an Apple product couldn't meet which you required ?

    I've had a quick look and you're right going by the reviews thre's no way Apple could compete.

    http://shop.lenovo.com/gb/en/laptops/ideapad/u-series/u310/?sb=:000001D4:0001BEEE:#reviews

    --------------------------
    Disappointment
    Date: Dec 30, 2012
    cons (3) Wireless card,Support,poor connectivity

    Considerably dissatisfied because of very poor wireless connection; wouldn't be such any issue had Lenovo been able to resolve. Unable to recommend the U310 and would discourage friends and family from purchasing.
    --------------------------------

    http://shop.lenovo.com/gb/en/laptop...t|z1D630|s#/?facet-5=2&page-index=1&facet-2=3

    Tried to get a review of their top end £1,500 thinkpad X1 carbon

    Cons Screen size, resolution, display performance and price
    And a months delivery, buyer sent it back in the end.

    I guess you're right the's no way Apple could compete with this :)

    >
    > I wound up with my Lenovo.


    Are you sure you don;t mean you were wound up by your Lenovo.
     
    Whisky-dave, May 13, 2013
    #58
  19. RichA

    J. Clarke Guest

    In article <>, says...
    >
    > In article <>,
    > notbob <> wrote:
    >
    > > On 2013-05-12, android <> wrote:
    > >
    > > > "J. Clarke" <> wrote:

    > >
    > > >> In article <>, says...

    > >
    > > >> > http://www.modbook.com/

    > >
    > > >> Which is not made by Apple.

    > >
    > > > Nooo... It''s a third party modification of an Apple product...

    > >
    > > ....and it's a damn sight far away from being affordable!
    > >
    > > <http://www.powerbookmedic.com/Modbook-Pro-23GHZ-Core-i5-120GB-SSD-4GB-RAM-p-2
    > > 5898.html>
    > >
    > > I'll jes buy a used intuos 3 fer $150 and run it on my linux desktop,
    > > thank you very much.
    > >
    > > nb

    >
    > I'm not selling it. It's there if you need/want it. Some folks pay
    > premium for tools that make them more productive.


    The argument presented was that Macs have lots of functionality that PCs
    lack. I pointed out an example where they don't. You pointed out that
    a third party kluges Macs to provide a keyboardless tablet, voiding the
    Apple warranty in the process. If you are willing to go with something
    that is hacked up by a third party and unsupported by Apple, then I can
    just put OSX on my Thinkpad and end up with a more satisfactory result.
     
    J. Clarke, May 13, 2013
    #59
  20. RichA

    J. Clarke Guest

    In article <CDB64684.9B861%>,
    says...
    >
    > On 5/12/13 9:43 PM, in article 120520132243388841%,
    > "nospam" <> wrote:
    >
    > > In article <>, J. Clarke
    > > <> wrote:
    > >
    > >>> If there is no market, why waste production
    > >>> and advertising expense trying to sell ice cubes to Eskimos?
    > >>
    > >> And yet obviously there is a market. One that Apple ignored.

    > >
    > > not one big enough for apple to bother with.

    >
    > Amazing how some people feel that if THEY cherish a toy, then the whole
    > WORLD should also worship their golden calf...


    Yep, described the MacTribesman attitude to a T.
     
    J. Clarke, May 13, 2013
    #60
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