Admit it; You'd like a Nikon FE-2 with a digital back

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Rich, Mar 23, 2006.

  1. Rich

    Rich Guest

    I'd like an Olympus OM-1n with one.
    Sensor dirty? Just open the back up and
    clean it easily. No messing around with myriad
    silly controls and menus, just basic, auto or manual
    control. Film area becomes the battery compartment
    on the left, electronics go in the right film compartment.
    Mirror is the same, shutter is the same.
    Meanwhile, fully metal, beautifully made reconstructed
    SLRs become replacements for all the plastic entry-level
    DSLRs, for enthusiasts of course. Why should only cars
    being going "retro?"
    -Rich
     
    Rich, Mar 23, 2006
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Rich wrote:
    > I'd like an Olympus OM-1n with one.
    > Sensor dirty? Just open the back up and
    > clean it easily. No messing around with myriad
    > silly controls and menus, just basic, auto or manual
    > control. Film area becomes the battery compartment
    > on the left, electronics go in the right film compartment.
    > Mirror is the same, shutter is the same.
    > Meanwhile, fully metal, beautifully made reconstructed
    > SLRs become replacements for all the plastic entry-level
    > DSLRs, for enthusiasts of course. Why should only cars
    > being going "retro?"
    > -Rich


    Is that why I love to play with my immaculate fifty-year-old Leica 3f? I
    thought it was just me, now I know there must be at least 2 of us!

    Dennis.
     
    Dennis Pogson, Mar 23, 2006
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. In article <>, Rich
    <> wrote:

    > 'd like an Olympus OM-1n with one.
    > Sensor dirty? Just open the back up and
    > clean it easily. No messing around with myriad
    > silly controls and menus, just basic, auto or manual
    > control. Film area becomes the battery compartment
    > on the left, electronics go in the right film compartment.
    > Mirror is the same, shutter is the same.
    > Meanwhile, fully metal, beautifully made reconstructed
    > SLRs become replacements for all the plastic entry-level
    > DSLRs, for enthusiasts of course. Why should only cars
    > being going "retro?"
    > -Rich


    Oh, I agree - so much so that I usually skip the digital part and just
    put film in it.
     
    Scott Schuckert, Mar 23, 2006
    #3
  4. Rich

    tomm42 Guest

    Re: Admit it; You'd like a Nikon FE-2 with a digital back

    I stopped waiting for them to do that with my Canon F1s and Leicas.
    Obviously Leica found it difficult, and it will be a not very automatic
    camera, problem is that it will cost $5K.
    Too many people love the automatic cameras. But I just bought a D200,
    solid, feels more like my F1 than any other digital I could afford.
    Yeah I was going to use it on manual, with just a 24 f2 (manual focus).
    Well digital viewing screens are light matte and a little tough to
    focus on with a wide angle. I also have a 70-210 f4, easy enough to
    focus with, but auto focus is sooo seductive. All those sharp tight
    pics of flying birds, almost impossible with manual focus. Now I find
    myself slipping into using aperture priority on D200. The meter is so
    much better than the one on the F1 (new and old). I no longer carry a
    Luna Pro. I hadn't bought a good camera in 20 some odd years, times
    change.

    Tom
     
    tomm42, Mar 23, 2006
    #4
  5. Rich

    Bill Funk Guest

    On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 02:12:48 -0500, Rich <> wrote:

    >I'd like an Olympus OM-1n with one.
    >Sensor dirty? Just open the back up and
    >clean it easily. No messing around with myriad
    >silly controls and menus, just basic, auto or manual
    >control. Film area becomes the battery compartment
    >on the left, electronics go in the right film compartment.
    >Mirror is the same, shutter is the same.
    >Meanwhile, fully metal, beautifully made reconstructed
    >SLRs become replacements for all the plastic entry-level
    >DSLRs, for enthusiasts of course. Why should only cars
    >being going "retro?"
    >-Rich


    There's a real problem with putting he electronics into that film
    area; that's a lot of electronics to put into a very small space,
    which leads to heat problems.
    So, the camera will be slow (to keep heat down), and have a very small
    buffer (same reason).
    Then, the battery compartment will require a proprietary battery (no
    AAs), which will turn a lot of people off right away.
    Plus, where to put the memory card?
    It's been tried:
    http://www.side.com/

    --
    Bill Funk
    replace "g" with "a"
     
    Bill Funk, Mar 23, 2006
    #5
  6. Rich

    Paul Rubin Guest

    Rich <> writes:
    > Meanwhile, fully metal, beautifully made reconstructed
    > SLRs become replacements for all the plastic entry-level
    > DSLRs, for enthusiasts of course. Why should only cars
    > being going "retro?"


    http://bythom.com/2005dreamdslrs.htm

    discusses a hypothetical "FM3D" with manual focus and a 6mp -monochrome-
    CCD sensor using Zone System metering.
     
    Paul Rubin, Mar 23, 2006
    #6
  7. Rich

    Rich Guest

    On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 07:48:51 -0700, Bill Funk <>
    wrote:

    >On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 02:12:48 -0500, Rich <> wrote:
    >
    >>I'd like an Olympus OM-1n with one.
    >>Sensor dirty? Just open the back up and
    >>clean it easily. No messing around with myriad
    >>silly controls and menus, just basic, auto or manual
    >>control. Film area becomes the battery compartment
    >>on the left, electronics go in the right film compartment.
    >>Mirror is the same, shutter is the same.
    >>Meanwhile, fully metal, beautifully made reconstructed
    >>SLRs become replacements for all the plastic entry-level
    >>DSLRs, for enthusiasts of course. Why should only cars
    >>being going "retro?"
    >>-Rich

    >
    >There's a real problem with putting he electronics into that film
    >area; that's a lot of electronics to put into a very small space,
    >which leads to heat problems.
    >So, the camera will be slow (to keep heat down), and have a very small
    >buffer (same reason).
    >Then, the battery compartment will require a proprietary battery (no
    >AAs), which will turn a lot of people off right away.
    >Plus, where to put the memory card?
    >It's been tried:
    >http://www.side.com/


    I personally hate AA batteries, I'd had enough using four of them in
    my old Olympus C-3040. Give me ONE proprietary battery anytime.
    As for the digital backs, you are right, there are some pretty
    insurmountable obstacles to overcome to do this right.

    But as for heat, perhaps the American ideal of the digital camera
    is not so good? Black cameras (the majority on the American market
    in the prosumer DSLR side) tend to absorb far more heat than silver
    ones. Carry a black DSLR around in the sun for awhile and you can
    feel how hot it gets. This causes noise levels to rise substantially,
    as does cooling a camera causes noise levels to drop. Maybe
    (despite its appearance) the silver Rebel XT is the best idea?
    But then the plastic body must also act as an insulator, not allowing
    heat to escape like a metal body would.
    -Rich
     
    Rich, Mar 23, 2006
    #7
  8. Rich

    Bill Funk Guest

    On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 17:21:04 -0500, Rich <> wrote:

    >>
    >>There's a real problem with putting he electronics into that film
    >>area; that's a lot of electronics to put into a very small space,
    >>which leads to heat problems.
    >>So, the camera will be slow (to keep heat down), and have a very small
    >>buffer (same reason).
    >>Then, the battery compartment will require a proprietary battery (no
    >>AAs), which will turn a lot of people off right away.
    >>Plus, where to put the memory card?
    >>It's been tried:
    >>http://www.side.com/

    >
    >I personally hate AA batteries, I'd had enough using four of them in
    >my old Olympus C-3040. Give me ONE proprietary battery anytime.
    >As for the digital backs, you are right, there are some pretty
    >insurmountable obstacles to overcome to do this right.


    AAs ar eliked by a lot of people. Personally, I don't much care. But
    that's me. When I travel, I take our POV. I don't fly. I have lots of
    carrying capacity, so multiple chargers don't bother me.
    >
    >But as for heat, perhaps the American ideal of the digital camera
    >is not so good? Black cameras (the majority on the American market
    >in the prosumer DSLR side) tend to absorb far more heat than silver
    >ones. Carry a black DSLR around in the sun for awhile and you can
    >feel how hot it gets. This causes noise levels to rise substantially,
    >as does cooling a camera causes noise levels to drop. Maybe
    >(despite its appearance) the silver Rebel XT is the best idea?
    >But then the plastic body must also act as an insulator, not allowing
    >heat to escape like a metal body would.
    >-Rich


    My DRebel is silver, and I don't think anyone thinks about it one way
    or the other. But yes, a black camera will be hotter, especially here
    in Phoenix in the summer.

    --
    Bill Funk
    replace "g" with "a"
     
    Bill Funk, Mar 24, 2006
    #8
  9. "Rich" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > I'd like an Olympus OM-1n with one.
    > Sensor dirty?


    Since volume helps get the price down, count me in too. I love the feel of
    my OM-2.
     
    Edwin Pawlowski, Mar 24, 2006
    #9
  10. On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 02:12:48 -0500, Rich <> wrote:

    >I'd like an Olympus OM-1n with one.


    I'll pass, thanks. Why have the worst of both worlds?

    I don't have anything against "going retro." While I don't own
    an OM-1n or an FE-2, I do own and shoot a Nikon FA. But you can
    use even the most sophisticated modern dSLR exactly in the manner
    you envision, without ever touching a menu setting.

    Among the engineering challenges I see:
    -- The digital back would require an active component to detect
    shutter activation, so it would know when to start and stop
    recording.
    -- There'd have to be some sort of hacked together electro-mechanical
    system to prevent firing the shutter when the digital back wasn't ready
    to record.
    -- You'd also have a "split brain" problem with the ISO speed,
    requiring setting it both on the camera and the body.
    -- Metering would be limited to 1980's technology. Chances are that
    TTL flash metering wouldn't work, even on an FE-2, due to the different
    reflectivity characteristics of the sensor.
    -- General issues of dust and sealing. If you have to open the
    back to change a battery, or swap memory cards, won't that expose
    the sensor?

    Not that people haven't thought of this before. In fact, a company
    by the name of Voyager One holds patents on this very invention,
    which it acquired from a company named Silicon Film. According
    to their last Edgar filing, that company has lost over 6 million
    dollars since inception, has current assets of $1000, current
    liabilities of $2.67 million, and has yet to produce any revenue
    at all, whether from product sales or patent royalties. They do
    own the domain name side.com, though, which probably has some real
    value.

    See:
    http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=VYGO.OB

    --
    Michael Benveniste --
    Spam and UCE professionally evaluated for $419. Use this email
    address only to submit mail for evaluation.
     
    Michael Benveniste, Mar 24, 2006
    #10
  11. Rich

    Rich Guest

    On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 17:55:19 -0700, Bill Funk <>
    wrote:

    >On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 17:21:04 -0500, Rich <> wrote:
    >
    >>>
    >>>There's a real problem with putting he electronics into that film
    >>>area; that's a lot of electronics to put into a very small space,
    >>>which leads to heat problems.
    >>>So, the camera will be slow (to keep heat down), and have a very small
    >>>buffer (same reason).
    >>>Then, the battery compartment will require a proprietary battery (no
    >>>AAs), which will turn a lot of people off right away.
    >>>Plus, where to put the memory card?
    >>>It's been tried:
    >>>http://www.side.com/

    >>
    >>I personally hate AA batteries, I'd had enough using four of them in
    >>my old Olympus C-3040. Give me ONE proprietary battery anytime.
    >>As for the digital backs, you are right, there are some pretty
    >>insurmountable obstacles to overcome to do this right.

    >
    >AAs ar eliked by a lot of people. Personally, I don't much care. But
    >that's me. When I travel, I take our POV. I don't fly. I have lots of
    >carrying capacity, so multiple chargers don't bother me.
    >>
    >>But as for heat, perhaps the American ideal of the digital camera
    >>is not so good? Black cameras (the majority on the American market
    >>in the prosumer DSLR side) tend to absorb far more heat than silver
    >>ones. Carry a black DSLR around in the sun for awhile and you can
    >>feel how hot it gets. This causes noise levels to rise substantially,
    >>as does cooling a camera causes noise levels to drop. Maybe
    >>(despite its appearance) the silver Rebel XT is the best idea?
    >>But then the plastic body must also act as an insulator, not allowing
    >>heat to escape like a metal body would.
    >>-Rich

    >
    >My DRebel is silver, and I don't think anyone thinks about it one way
    >or the other. But yes, a black camera will be hotter, especially here
    >in Phoenix in the summer.


    A 20 deg. change in camera temp will produce a visible difference in
    noise levels at higher ISO speeds anyway. If you are out in the
    winter (in the north of course) and the temp of the camera drops to
    near freezing, noise can drop by (subjectively) half of what it is at
    70 deg. F. Thats why astronomers who take long exposures use
    electro-mechanical coolers and liquid nitrogen on their CCDs.
    -Rich
     
    Rich, Mar 24, 2006
    #11
  12. Rich

    Andy Lee Guest

    On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 17:21:04 -0500, Rich <> wrote:

    >On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 07:48:51 -0700, Bill Funk <>
    >wrote:
    >
    >>On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 02:12:48 -0500, Rich <> wrote:
    >>
    >>>I'd like an Olympus OM-1n with one.
    >>>Sensor dirty? Just open the back up and
    >>>clean it easily. No messing around with myriad
    >>>silly controls and menus, just basic, auto or manual
    >>>control. Film area becomes the battery compartment
    >>>on the left, electronics go in the right film compartment.
    >>>Mirror is the same, shutter is the same.
    >>>Meanwhile, fully metal, beautifully made reconstructed
    >>>SLRs become replacements for all the plastic entry-level
    >>>DSLRs, for enthusiasts of course. Why should only cars
    >>>being going "retro?"
    >>>-Rich

    >>
    >>There's a real problem with putting he electronics into that film
    >>area; that's a lot of electronics to put into a very small space,
    >>which leads to heat problems.
    >>So, the camera will be slow (to keep heat down), and have a very small
    >>buffer (same reason).
    >>Then, the battery compartment will require a proprietary battery (no
    >>AAs), which will turn a lot of people off right away.
    >>Plus, where to put the memory card?
    >>It's been tried:
    >>http://www.side.com/

    >
    >I personally hate AA batteries, I'd had enough using four of them in
    >my old Olympus C-3040. Give me ONE proprietary battery anytime.
    >As for the digital backs, you are right, there are some pretty
    >insurmountable obstacles to overcome to do this right.
    >
    >But as for heat, perhaps the American ideal of the digital camera
    >is not so good? Black cameras (the majority on the American market
    >in the prosumer DSLR side) tend to absorb far more heat than silver
    >ones. Carry a black DSLR around in the sun for awhile and you can
    >feel how hot it gets.


    Of course the real reason it feels hot is because it is better able to
    radiate all that heat back out into the open air. I promise you if you
    left 2 cameras of the same model one black one silver the internals
    of both will be at air ambient temperature with a couple of seconds
    of each other.

    >This causes noise levels to rise substantially,
    >as does cooling a camera causes noise levels to drop. Maybe
    >(despite its appearance) the silver Rebel XT is the best idea?
    >But then the plastic body must also act as an insulator, not allowing
    >heat to escape like a metal body would.


    But if its a better insulator surely it will not get so hot inside in
    the first place!
    >-Rich
     
    Andy Lee, Mar 24, 2006
    #12
  13. Rich

    Bill Funk Guest

    On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 12:55:10 +0000, Andy Lee <>
    wrote:

    >Of course the real reason it feels hot is because it is better able to
    >radiate all that heat back out into the open air. I promise you if you
    >left 2 cameras of the same model one black one silver the internals
    >of both will be at air ambient temperature with a couple of seconds
    >of each other.


    I don't think so.
    The black body will reflect less of the sun's heat, thus absorbing
    more.
    You're thinking of heat soaking; yes, over time, both black and silver
    bodies will equalize their temps in the shade, but not in the direct
    sunlight, because the black will abslorb more heat in the direct sun.

    --
    Bill Funk
    replace "g" with "a"
     
    Bill Funk, Mar 24, 2006
    #13
  14. In article <>, Michael
    Benveniste <> writes
    >On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 02:12:48 -0500, Rich <> wrote:
    >
    >>I'd like an Olympus OM-1n with one.

    >

    Probably unlike most of the posters here, I have actually looked into
    the engineering problems of doing this, specifically with the OM-4Ti,
    but compatible with OM-1n, 2n, 3 & 4. I was mainly interested in
    fitting a full frame CCD such as the Philips FTF-3020C 6Mp sensor or its
    11Mp FTF-4027C big brother.

    The only engineering issue I couldn't overcome related to optical
    restrictions. On the Philips chips, the sensor sits about 2.5mm behind
    a front glass window of a ceramic package. So, to get the sensor at the
    image plane of the OM camera would have meant placing the window 2.5mm
    in front of it - which would have involved very major modifications to
    camera body. Not only would the film reference guides have to have been
    machined out to create room to slot in CCD package, which is about 5mm
    wider than 35mm film, but the entire shutter assembly would have
    required to be moved forward, since there is only about 1.5mm clearance
    between the shutter and the film plane.

    The alternative to this was to place the glass window at the focal plane
    and mill 2.5mm off the lens mount so that it shifted the entire assembly
    back. This meant that the focus screen and pentaprism would have to be
    raised by the same amount so that the image in the viewfinder was in
    focus at the same time as the focal plane. There certainly isn't room
    inside the OM-1 top cover to do this, let alone the OM-4 with its
    electronic boards mounted over the pentaprism.

    So, when it came down to it, the electronics were relatively simple -
    although I was planning raw storage and digital output only, no in
    camera processing or LCD review. I have some colleagues who were more
    than interested in and capable of performing the precision machining
    necessary - if I could have come up with a suitable optical solution.

    It was far simpler to buy a ready made full frame dSLR with all of the
    features of the OM-4 that I had come to use and rely on. Those that
    were available were well beyond a price I could justify paying - until
    the Canon 5D was released. The rest is history. ;-)
    --
    Kennedy
    Yes, Socrates himself is particularly missed;
    A lovely little thinker, but a bugger when he's pissed.
    Python Philosophers (replace 'nospam' with 'kennedym' when replying)
     
    Kennedy McEwen, Mar 25, 2006
    #14
  15. In article <>, Andy Lee
    <> writes
    >
    >Of course the real reason it feels hot is because it is better able to
    >radiate all that heat back out into the open air. I promise you if you
    >left 2 cameras of the same model one black one silver the internals
    >of both will be at air ambient temperature with a couple of seconds
    >of each other.
    >

    I'll bet you they aren't! A thermal imager will clearly show
    temperature differences due to much less difference in reflectivity than
    black and silver. Anyone who has used a thermal imager, and I work with
    them every day, will be aware of this. That is why you can read
    billboard writing and road signs with the thermal imager if the sun is
    shining on them - the dark writing gets hotter than the light
    background.

    The black body feels hot because it *is* hot. It is a better radiator
    than the silver finish, but it is also a much better absorber. Both
    cameras heat up due to the sunlight until the amount of absorbed
    radiation equals the amount of emitted radiation.

    Most of the solar radiation reaching the surface of the earth is in the
    visible band (in fact that is why it IS the visible band) of the
    electromagnetic spectrum, which the black surface absorbs very
    effectively compared to the silver surface. However the radiation
    emitted is determined *only* by the temperature of the camera, known as
    Planck's Law, and that ranges from about 3um to 100um for ambient
    temperatures, typically peaking around 10um. The atmosphere only
    transmits at certain wavelengths, so thermal imagers can be used to
    detect and measure the temperature of surfaces by the amount of emitted
    radiation in these atmospheric transmission windows, usually the
    mid-wave (3-5um) or long-wave (7.5-14um) infrared bands.

    Since the black camera body absorbs more visible radiation, it has to
    reach a higher temperature than the silver body before equilibrium
    between absorbed and emitted radiation is achieved. So after even just
    a few minutes, the internal temperature of the black camera will be
    measurably hotter than the silver one.
    --
    Kennedy
    Yes, Socrates himself is particularly missed;
    A lovely little thinker, but a bugger when he's pissed.
    Python Philosophers (replace 'nospam' with 'kennedym' when replying)
     
    Kennedy McEwen, Mar 25, 2006
    #15
  16. Rich

    Paul Mitchum Guest

    Rich <> wrote:

    > I'd like an Olympus OM-1n with one.
    > Sensor dirty? Just open the back up and
    > clean it easily. No messing around with myriad
    > silly controls and menus, just basic, auto or manual
    > control. Film area becomes the battery compartment
    > on the left, electronics go in the right film compartment.
    > Mirror is the same, shutter is the same.
    > Meanwhile, fully metal, beautifully made reconstructed
    > SLRs become replacements for all the plastic entry-level
    > DSLRs, for enthusiasts of course. Why should only cars
    > being going "retro?"
    > -Rich


    Some company was planning to make a digital sensor insert in the shape
    of a roll of film.

    Of course, there are sensors in the shape of rolls of film, and they're
    called film. :)
     
    Paul Mitchum, Mar 25, 2006
    #16
  17. Rich

    Annika1980 Guest

    Re: Admit it; You'd like a Nikon FE-2 with a digital back

    >Is that why I love to play with my immaculate fifty-year-old Leica 3f? I
    >thought it was just me, now I know there must be at least 2 of us!


    Simple cameras for simple people.
     
    Annika1980, Mar 25, 2006
    #17
  18. Rich

    Rich Guest

    On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 17:40:11 -0800, 0m (Paul Mitchum)
    wrote:

    >Rich <> wrote:
    >
    >> I'd like an Olympus OM-1n with one.
    >> Sensor dirty? Just open the back up and
    >> clean it easily. No messing around with myriad
    >> silly controls and menus, just basic, auto or manual
    >> control. Film area becomes the battery compartment
    >> on the left, electronics go in the right film compartment.
    >> Mirror is the same, shutter is the same.
    >> Meanwhile, fully metal, beautifully made reconstructed
    >> SLRs become replacements for all the plastic entry-level
    >> DSLRs, for enthusiasts of course. Why should only cars
    >> being going "retro?"
    >> -Rich

    >
    >Some company was planning to make a digital sensor insert in the shape
    >of a roll of film.
    >
    >Of course, there are sensors in the shape of rolls of film, and they're
    >called film. :)


    I remember that. Nothing much came of it I guess.
    The other poster mentioned considering putting a FF sensor
    in. I'd limit it to an 1.5x, no film rail mods, just dispensing with
    the back's pressure plate.
    -Rich
     
    Rich, Mar 25, 2006
    #18
  19. In article <>, Rich
    <> writes
    >The other poster mentioned considering putting a FF sensor
    >in. I'd limit it to an 1.5x, no film rail mods, just dispensing with
    >the back's pressure plate.


    You still have the problem of getting the optical paths right. You
    won't get a sensor that isn't in a windowed package, and that means a
    lot of hacking to place the sensor at the focal plane without the
    package fouling the shutter. Without the protection of the package, the
    sensor will last for about 5 minutes operating life. Even ready made
    dSLRs have their sensors in packages, as can be seen in this photo of a
    Canon 30D internals.
    http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/D30/ZBOXBLG.HTM
    The windowed package is on the hinged portion at the back. You can see
    the reflection of the back in the AA filter on the main body, and the
    shutter sits in front of all of this - substantially different placement
    from a film camera.
    --
    Kennedy
    Yes, Socrates himself is particularly missed;
    A lovely little thinker, but a bugger when he's pissed.
    Python Philosophers (replace 'nospam' with 'kennedym' when replying)
     
    Kennedy McEwen, Mar 25, 2006
    #19
  20. Rich

    Rich Guest

    Re: Admit it; You'd like a Nikon FE-2 with a digital back

    I think the removal of the pressure plate would provide enough depth to
    fit a sensor, but if not, you could always make a new back. Like
    Leica.
     
    Rich, Mar 25, 2006
    #20
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