??? about using music in projects

Discussion in 'DVD Video' started by spl@ter., Nov 3, 2008.

  1. spl@ter.

    spl@ter. Guest

    What do we have to do to use music in video projects?
    How about popular music that's copyrighted? How do
    things differ between projects we intend to sell and
    those we don't? How about if it's something we are selling
    like a wedding or some personal event, but won't ever be
    aired? How about if it's something that hopefully will be
    aired sometime?

    Thanks for any help!
     
    spl@ter., Nov 3, 2008
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. spl@ter.

    Guru Guest

    This is a complex subject, but I'll try to give you 20 years of experience
    in a few short sentences:

    1. Virtually all popular music is copyrighted. It is protected by Federal
    Law and if you get caught using it in any project whatsoever, without have
    previously negotiated the rights for your particular project, you are
    subject to prosecution. A number of video/audio production companies have
    been put out of business, so this is no idle threat.

    2. The hassle and costs of gaining rights to such music is almost always
    not worth the effort, and most clients cannot afford the costs. We had one
    major client who wanted to use the music from a well known movie. He
    insisted. We told him that if we had a "hold harmless" letter, signed by a
    Sr. VP or higher official of the corporation, we use it. He did and we did.
    However, if there had been trouble, they would have had to pay a significant
    fine to the Feds.

    3. Generally, rely on "production music", which is available from many
    companies. Some will simply sell you "buy out" songs....you buy them, you
    own them, there are no additional fees. Other music libraries have a
    specific set of fees that apply under different circumstances, for
    commercial or duplication use, individual one time use, etc.

    4. You want to gamble your future because someone wants to use a known tune
    on their daughter's wedding, be my guest.

    Hope this helps!


    <spl@ter.> wrote in message
    news:...
    > What do we have to do to use music in video projects?
    > How about popular music that's copyrighted? How do
    > things differ between projects we intend to sell and
    > those we don't? How about if it's something we are selling
    > like a wedding or some personal event, but won't ever be
    > aired? How about if it's something that hopefully will be
    > aired sometime?
    >
    > Thanks for any help!
     
    Guru, Nov 3, 2008
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. spl@ter.

    spl@ter. Guest

    On Mon, 3 Nov 2008 16:36:23 -0600, "Guru" <> wrote:

    >This is a complex subject, but I'll try to give you 20 years of experience
    >in a few short sentences:
    >
    >1. Virtually all popular music is copyrighted. It is protected by Federal
    >Law and if you get caught using it in any project whatsoever, without have
    >previously negotiated the rights for your particular project, you are
    >subject to prosecution. A number of video/audio production companies have
    >been put out of business, so this is no idle threat.
    >
    >2. The hassle and costs of gaining rights to such music is almost always
    >not worth the effort, and most clients cannot afford the costs. We had one
    >major client who wanted to use the music from a well known movie. He
    >insisted. We told him that if we had a "hold harmless" letter, signed by a
    >Sr. VP or higher official of the corporation, we use it. He did and we did.
    >However, if there had been trouble, they would have had to pay a significant
    >fine to the Feds.
    >
    >3. Generally, rely on "production music", which is available from many
    >companies. Some will simply sell you "buy out" songs....you buy them, you
    >own them, there are no additional fees. Other music libraries have a
    >specific set of fees that apply under different circumstances, for
    >commercial or duplication use, individual one time use, etc.
    >
    >4. You want to gamble your future because someone wants to use a known tune
    >on their daughter's wedding, be my guest.
    >
    >Hope this helps!


    It does. Then it brings up other questions, like what if a
    popular song is played by a keyboardest? What about music
    that's played at the reception? If you're just recording what
    goes on in the room, can you get in trouble for selling someone
    a recording of their own reception if a popular song is being
    played and gets recorded along with everything else? If not,
    that would open up some possibilities. If so, that certainly
    would be a huge restriction in a lot of different areas....so
    what's the deal in cases like that?
     
    spl@ter., Nov 4, 2008
    #3
  4. spl@ter.

    spl@ter. Guest

    On Tue, 4 Nov 2008 12:20:54 -0600, "Guru" <> wrote:

    >Under the circumstances you noted, you would be in the clear. In this case,
    >you're simply an observer, similar to a TV station shooting news. Now the
    >band...that's a different story...if they are completely legit...they've
    >registered and have a blanket license from ASCAP and/or BMI.


    What about things a DJ plays? If they're copyrighted, could it be
    a problem even though it's really just ambient noise or whatever?
    If not, couldn't we take anything the DJ plays and mix it into the
    project wherever we want, or would it all have to match with the
    video? That doesn't seem right though, that there would be such
    a law about how you edit...

    ><spl@ter.> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >> On Mon, 3 Nov 2008 16:36:23 -0600, "Guru" <> wrote:
    >>
    >>>This is a complex subject, but I'll try to give you 20 years of experience
    >>>in a few short sentences:
    >>>
    >>>1. Virtually all popular music is copyrighted. It is protected by
    >>>Federal
    >>>Law and if you get caught using it in any project whatsoever, without have
    >>>previously negotiated the rights for your particular project, you are
    >>>subject to prosecution. A number of video/audio production companies have
    >>>been put out of business, so this is no idle threat.
    >>>
    >>>2. The hassle and costs of gaining rights to such music is almost always
    >>>not worth the effort, and most clients cannot afford the costs. We had
    >>>one
    >>>major client who wanted to use the music from a well known movie. He
    >>>insisted. We told him that if we had a "hold harmless" letter, signed by
    >>>a
    >>>Sr. VP or higher official of the corporation, we use it. He did and we
    >>>did.
    >>>However, if there had been trouble, they would have had to pay a
    >>>significant
    >>>fine to the Feds.
    >>>
    >>>3. Generally, rely on "production music", which is available from many
    >>>companies. Some will simply sell you "buy out" songs....you buy them, you
    >>>own them, there are no additional fees. Other music libraries have a
    >>>specific set of fees that apply under different circumstances, for
    >>>commercial or duplication use, individual one time use, etc.
    >>>
    >>>4. You want to gamble your future because someone wants to use a known
    >>>tune
    >>>on their daughter's wedding, be my guest.
    >>>
    >>>Hope this helps!

    >>
    >> It does. Then it brings up other questions, like what if a
    >> popular song is played by a keyboardest? What about music
    >> that's played at the reception? If you're just recording what
    >> goes on in the room, can you get in trouble for selling someone
    >> a recording of their own reception if a popular song is being
    >> played and gets recorded along with everything else? If not,
    >> that would open up some possibilities. If so, that certainly
    >> would be a huge restriction in a lot of different areas....so
    >> what's the deal in cases like that?

    >
     
    spl@ter., Nov 5, 2008
    #4
  5. spl@ter.

    Telstar Guest

    <spl@ter.> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Tue, 4 Nov 2008 12:20:54 -0600, "Guru" <> wrote:
    >
    >>Under the circumstances you noted, you would be in the clear. In this
    >>case,
    >>you're simply an observer, similar to a TV station shooting news. Now the
    >>band...that's a different story...if they are completely legit...they've
    >>registered and have a blanket license from ASCAP and/or BMI.

    >
    > What about things a DJ plays? If they're copyrighted, could it be
    > a problem even though it's really just ambient noise or whatever?
    > If not, couldn't we take anything the DJ plays and mix it into the
    > project wherever we want, or would it all have to match with the
    > video? That doesn't seem right though, that there would be such
    > a law about how you edit...
    >
    >><spl@ter.> wrote in message
    >>news:...
    >>> On Mon, 3 Nov 2008 16:36:23 -0600, "Guru" <> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>This is a complex subject, but I'll try to give you 20 years of
    >>>>experience
    >>>>in a few short sentences:
    >>>>
    >>>>1. Virtually all popular music is copyrighted. It is protected by
    >>>>Federal
    >>>>Law and if you get caught using it in any project whatsoever, without
    >>>>have
    >>>>previously negotiated the rights for your particular project, you are
    >>>>subject to prosecution. A number of video/audio production companies
    >>>>have
    >>>>been put out of business, so this is no idle threat.
    >>>>
    >>>>2. The hassle and costs of gaining rights to such music is almost
    >>>>always
    >>>>not worth the effort, and most clients cannot afford the costs. We had
    >>>>one
    >>>>major client who wanted to use the music from a well known movie. He
    >>>>insisted. We told him that if we had a "hold harmless" letter, signed
    >>>>by
    >>>>a
    >>>>Sr. VP or higher official of the corporation, we use it. He did and we
    >>>>did.
    >>>>However, if there had been trouble, they would have had to pay a
    >>>>significant
    >>>>fine to the Feds.
    >>>>
    >>>>3. Generally, rely on "production music", which is available from many
    >>>>companies. Some will simply sell you "buy out" songs....you buy them,
    >>>>you
    >>>>own them, there are no additional fees. Other music libraries have a
    >>>>specific set of fees that apply under different circumstances, for
    >>>>commercial or duplication use, individual one time use, etc.
    >>>>
    >>>>4. You want to gamble your future because someone wants to use a known
    >>>>tune
    >>>>on their daughter's wedding, be my guest.
    >>>>
    >>>>Hope this helps!
    >>>
    >>> It does. Then it brings up other questions, like what if a
    >>> popular song is played by a keyboardest? What about music
    >>> that's played at the reception? If you're just recording what
    >>> goes on in the room, can you get in trouble for selling someone
    >>> a recording of their own reception if a popular song is being
    >>> played and gets recorded along with everything else? If not,
    >>> that would open up some possibilities. If so, that certainly
    >>> would be a huge restriction in a lot of different areas....so
    >>> what's the deal in cases like that?

    >>
     
    Telstar, Nov 5, 2008
    #5
  6. spl@ter.

    Telstar Guest

    <spl@ter.> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Tue, 4 Nov 2008 12:20:54 -0600, "Guru" <> wrote:
    >
    >>Under the circumstances you noted, you would be in the clear. In this
    >>case,
    >>you're simply an observer, similar to a TV station shooting news. Now the
    >>band...that's a different story...if they are completely legit...they've
    >>registered and have a blanket license from ASCAP and/or BMI.

    >
    > What about things a DJ plays? If they're copyrighted, could it be
    > a problem even though it's really just ambient noise or whatever?
    > If not, couldn't we take anything the DJ plays and mix it into the
    > project wherever we want, or would it all have to match with the
    > video? That doesn't seem right though, that there would be such
    > a law about how you edit...



    No, you can do none of this. It is not ambinet, it is intentional use, and
    you are intentionally recording it. The former poster is mostly correct,
    but even if a professional company happens to copy ambinent music, they ALSO
    must get clearance for reproduction. There are many cases that such music
    is blocked out, just as video of trademarked logos and items must be blocked
    from reproduced videos. I assume all of this is for profit and commerical.
     
    Telstar, Nov 5, 2008
    #6
  7. spl@ter.

    Telstar Guest

    "Telstar" <> wrote in message
    news:get9p3$sph$...
    >
    > <spl@ter.> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> On Tue, 4 Nov 2008 12:20:54 -0600, "Guru" <> wrote:
    >>
    >>>Under the circumstances you noted, you would be in the clear. In this
    >>>case,
    >>>you're simply an observer, similar to a TV station shooting news. Now
    >>>the
    >>>band...that's a different story...if they are completely legit...they've
    >>>registered and have a blanket license from ASCAP and/or BMI.

    >>
    >> What about things a DJ plays? If they're copyrighted, could it be
    >> a problem even though it's really just ambient noise or whatever?
    >> If not, couldn't we take anything the DJ plays and mix it into the
    >> project wherever we want, or would it all have to match with the
    >> video? That doesn't seem right though, that there would be such
    >> a law about how you edit...

    >
    >
    > No, you can do none of this. It is not ambinet, it is intentional use,
    > and you are intentionally recording it. The former poster is mostly
    > correct, but even if a professional company happens to copy ambinent
    > music, they ALSO must get clearance for reproduction. There are many
    > cases that such music is blocked out, just as video of trademarked logos
    > and items must be blocked from reproduced videos. I assume all of this is
    > for profit and commerical.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >


    NOTE: If the capture is a snippet (actual term used by the Library of
    Congress), it might get by. It is like quoting a passage from a book.

    Because of the DMCA and other revisions, it really is required to hire a
    copyright lawyer in this case...something I am not. I just read alot.
     
    Telstar, Nov 5, 2008
    #7
  8. spl@ter.

    Telstar Guest

    "Telstar" <> wrote in message
    news:getai3$tbs$...
    >
    > "Telstar" <> wrote in message
    > news:get9p3$sph$...
    >>
    >> <spl@ter.> wrote in message
    >> news:...
    >>> On Tue, 4 Nov 2008 12:20:54 -0600, "Guru" <> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>Under the circumstances you noted, you would be in the clear. In this
    >>>>case,
    >>>>you're simply an observer, similar to a TV station shooting news. Now
    >>>>the
    >>>>band...that's a different story...if they are completely legit...they've
    >>>>registered and have a blanket license from ASCAP and/or BMI.
    >>>
    >>> What about things a DJ plays? If they're copyrighted, could it be
    >>> a problem even though it's really just ambient noise or whatever?
    >>> If not, couldn't we take anything the DJ plays and mix it into the
    >>> project wherever we want, or would it all have to match with the
    >>> video? That doesn't seem right though, that there would be such
    >>> a law about how you edit...

    >>
    >>
    >> No, you can do none of this. It is not ambinet, it is intentional use,
    >> and you are intentionally recording it. The former poster is mostly
    >> correct, but even if a professional company happens to copy ambinent
    >> music, they ALSO must get clearance for reproduction. There are many
    >> cases that such music is blocked out, just as video of trademarked logos
    >> and items must be blocked from reproduced videos. I assume all of this
    >> is for profit and commerical.
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>

    >
    > NOTE: If the capture is a snippet (actual term used by the Library of
    > Congress), it might get by. It is like quoting a passage from a book.
    >
    > Because of the DMCA and other revisions, it really is required to hire a
    > copyright lawyer in this case...something I am not. I just read alot.
    >
    >


    Just another note:

    Miklos Rosza wrote a film score to "The Killers" that has a four-note
    motive. This motive was later employed, without permission, as a signature
    element of the TV series Dragnet. Rosza sued and won because the four-notes
    were considered to create a signature element. Therefore, length and
    purpose and stature all come into play with the pretty ambiguous copyright
    laws.
     
    Telstar, Nov 5, 2008
    #8
  9. spl@ter.

    AnimalMagic Guest

    On Mon, 3 Nov 2008 16:36:23 -0600, "Guru" <> wrote:

    >This is a complex subject, but I'll try to give you 20 years of experience
    >in a few short sentences:
    >
    >1. Virtually all popular music is copyrighted. It is protected by Federal
    >Law and if you get caught using it in any project whatsoever, without have
    >previously negotiated the rights for your particular project, you are
    >subject to prosecution.



    Bullshit. I can dub in an accompanying soundtrack of any sleection(s)
    I choose, and as long as I have no intent to market the product or any
    copy thereof, I am fine. It is no different than our right to transfer
    from an album to a cassette tape and listen to our own mix of songs. If
    you ain't sellin' it, they ain't lookin' for royalties for its use.

    > A number of video/audio production companies have
    >been put out of business, so this is no idle threat.



    That is an entirely different scenario from that which he outlined.

    Short clips ARE permitted without the need for permission grants, even
    on saleable goods.

    If your video or production company utilized an entire piece on
    marketed items, and did not get authorization, that is their fault.
     
    AnimalMagic, Nov 6, 2008
    #9
  10. spl@ter.

    AnimalMagic Guest

    On Wed, 5 Nov 2008 15:34:26 -0800, "Telstar" <> wrote:

    >
    >"Telstar" <> wrote in message
    >news:get9p3$sph$...
    >>
    >> <spl@ter.> wrote in message
    >> news:...
    >>> On Tue, 4 Nov 2008 12:20:54 -0600, "Guru" <> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>Under the circumstances you noted, you would be in the clear. In this
    >>>>case,
    >>>>you're simply an observer, similar to a TV station shooting news. Now
    >>>>the
    >>>>band...that's a different story...if they are completely legit...they've
    >>>>registered and have a blanket license from ASCAP and/or BMI.
    >>>
    >>> What about things a DJ plays? If they're copyrighted, could it be
    >>> a problem even though it's really just ambient noise or whatever?
    >>> If not, couldn't we take anything the DJ plays and mix it into the
    >>> project wherever we want, or would it all have to match with the
    >>> video? That doesn't seem right though, that there would be such
    >>> a law about how you edit...

    >>
    >>
    >> No, you can do none of this. It is not ambinet, it is intentional use,
    >> and you are intentionally recording it. The former poster is mostly
    >> correct, but even if a professional company happens to copy ambinent
    >> music, they ALSO must get clearance for reproduction. There are many
    >> cases that such music is blocked out, just as video of trademarked logos
    >> and items must be blocked from reproduced videos. I assume all of this is
    >> for profit and commerical.
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>


    Bands ARE allowed to play "covers" of any popular song from anywhere in
    history. The *MAY* not be allowed to record said performance, and
    subsequently sell copies of said recording.

    >NOTE: If the capture is a snippet (actual term used by the Library of
    >Congress), it might get by. It is like quoting a passage from a book.


    "snippets" are allowed.

    >Because of the DMCA and other revisions, it really is required to hire a
    >copyright lawyer in this case...something I am not. I just read alot.
    >


    Does the DCMA cover media on pressed vinyl discs (albums)? Pure analog.

    One would think not.
     
    AnimalMagic, Nov 6, 2008
    #10
  11. spl@ter.

    Telstar Guest

    <spl@ter.> wrote in message
    news:...
    > What do we have to do to use music in video projects?
    > How about popular music that's copyrighted? How do
    > things differ between projects we intend to sell and
    > those we don't? How about if it's something we are selling
    > like a wedding or some personal event, but won't ever be
    > aired?


    As soon as you make any money or distribution, it is a definate NO.
     
    Telstar, Nov 6, 2008
    #11
  12. spl@ter.

    PTravel Guest

    "Guru" <> wrote in message
    news:io0Qk.6321$...
    > Under the circumstances you noted, you would be in the clear. In this
    > case, you're simply an observer, similar to a TV station shooting news.
    > Now the band...that's a different story...if they are completely
    > legit...they've registered and have a blanket license from ASCAP and/or
    > BMI.


    Absolutely incorrect. Incidental reproduction, to which you are referring,
    is far from a settled doctrine. As a general rule, news media coverage will
    come within fair use. Wedding videography is not news coverage.

    The ASCAP/BMI license only covers performance. It does not cover copying or
    preparation of derivative works.

    Please do not give legal advice unless you are a licensed attorney.


    >
    >
    > <spl@ter.> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> On Mon, 3 Nov 2008 16:36:23 -0600, "Guru" <> wrote:
    >>
    >>>This is a complex subject, but I'll try to give you 20 years of
    >>>experience
    >>>in a few short sentences:
    >>>
    >>>1. Virtually all popular music is copyrighted. It is protected by
    >>>Federal
    >>>Law and if you get caught using it in any project whatsoever, without
    >>>have
    >>>previously negotiated the rights for your particular project, you are
    >>>subject to prosecution. A number of video/audio production companies
    >>>have
    >>>been put out of business, so this is no idle threat.
    >>>
    >>>2. The hassle and costs of gaining rights to such music is almost always
    >>>not worth the effort, and most clients cannot afford the costs. We had
    >>>one
    >>>major client who wanted to use the music from a well known movie. He
    >>>insisted. We told him that if we had a "hold harmless" letter, signed by
    >>>a
    >>>Sr. VP or higher official of the corporation, we use it. He did and we
    >>>did.
    >>>However, if there had been trouble, they would have had to pay a
    >>>significant
    >>>fine to the Feds.
    >>>
    >>>3. Generally, rely on "production music", which is available from many
    >>>companies. Some will simply sell you "buy out" songs....you buy them,
    >>>you
    >>>own them, there are no additional fees. Other music libraries have a
    >>>specific set of fees that apply under different circumstances, for
    >>>commercial or duplication use, individual one time use, etc.
    >>>
    >>>4. You want to gamble your future because someone wants to use a known
    >>>tune
    >>>on their daughter's wedding, be my guest.
    >>>
    >>>Hope this helps!

    >>
    >> It does. Then it brings up other questions, like what if a
    >> popular song is played by a keyboardest? What about music
    >> that's played at the reception? If you're just recording what
    >> goes on in the room, can you get in trouble for selling someone
    >> a recording of their own reception if a popular song is being
    >> played and gets recorded along with everything else? If not,
    >> that would open up some possibilities. If so, that certainly
    >> would be a huge restriction in a lot of different areas....so
    >> what's the deal in cases like that?

    >
    >
     
    PTravel, Nov 8, 2008
    #12
  13. spl@ter.

    dh@. Guest

    On Wed, 5 Nov 2008 15:21:06 -0800, "Telstar" <> wrote:

    >
    ><spl@ter.> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >> On Tue, 4 Nov 2008 12:20:54 -0600, "Guru" <> wrote:
    >>
    >>>Under the circumstances you noted, you would be in the clear. In this
    >>>case,
    >>>you're simply an observer, similar to a TV station shooting news. Now the
    >>>band...that's a different story...if they are completely legit...they've
    >>>registered and have a blanket license from ASCAP and/or BMI.

    >>
    >> What about things a DJ plays? If they're copyrighted, could it be
    >> a problem even though it's really just ambient noise or whatever?
    >> If not, couldn't we take anything the DJ plays and mix it into the
    >> project wherever we want, or would it all have to match with the
    >> video? That doesn't seem right though, that there would be such
    >> a law about how you edit...

    >
    >
    >No, you can do none of this. It is not ambinet, it is intentional use, and
    >you are intentionally recording it. The former poster is mostly correct,
    >but even if a professional company happens to copy ambinent music, they ALSO
    >must get clearance for reproduction. There are many cases that such music
    >is blocked out, just as video of trademarked logos and items must be blocked
    >from reproduced videos. I assume all of this is for profit and commerical.


    Not all, but some and that's what matters, right? It only takes one...
    So we can't include the organist, or the piano player, or any singers,
    or anyone playing music that has been copyrighted?
     
    dh@., Nov 10, 2008
    #13
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