about detecting radio and electroninc signals

Discussion in 'Computer Support' started by richard, Jul 14, 2009.

  1. richard

    richard Guest

    A story posted from the BBC leaves me wondering exactly just how
    factual that is. Or is it a story of science fiction.

    I always get a kick out of watching crime scene shows and just how
    amazing their electronic data gathering technology is. Pure science
    fiction.

    On one crime scene show taking place in NYC, not the one with Sarah J
    Parker, our good guys are online and playing the game at
    secondlife.com. They need to find a certain player toot sweet and help
    try to get the bad guy who is after him to kill him. Within minutes
    they find his IP. Like duh. That can be done only in Hollywood. Next
    we see them racing across manhattan island in the middle of the
    afternoon and taking only 5 minutes to do it, they locate his
    apartment. Which happens to be one of many in a multi story building.

    Yeah right. Not in the real world.

    On NCIS, Jethro Gibbs and team have the uncanny ability to suddenly
    track down any cellphone and even tell you exactly what floor and room
    it is in. Only in Hollywood does that crap happen.

    Now this BBC story is a bit like these. The claim is that from as much
    as 50 feet away, one can use an oscilliscope to detect which keys are
    being pressed on a computer, via the leaking signal through the cable.

    Ok yeah like maybe under ideal conditions. If the oscilloscope is
    connected to the same lines as the computer. I doubt seriously that
    they could do this with the scope being in one building, and the
    computer in another building across the street. Way to many varying
    factors involved to make it happen for real.

    I have a fairly good background in electronics. In the 70's when the
    FCC had 3 classes of license for technicians, I held a 2nd class for
    awhile.

    I still though question the validity of being able to detect weak
    radio signals specially those of items like radar detectors. A
    detector uses a local oscillator, which was commonly manufactured at
    11 gigahertz. Then some brilliant soul came along with a device that
    could actually detect this signal. I question this because it takes
    power to transmit a signal of any distance at that frequency.

    As the radio signal frequency increases, the power required to
    transmit the same signal the same distance also increases. A simple
    radar detector can not possibly generate a signal that would travel
    more than a few feet. AS there are other devices that transmit signals
    using the same bands as radar, is it not possible then that this RDD
    device would be triggered by a false signal? Most likely.

    Then the RD unit could only be detected while the unit is turned on.
    Without power, it can not be detected.

    I still say that this kind of so called technology is a scare tactic.
    Only two places in the USA ban the use of radar detectors. So if you
    have one, stay out of Virginia and Wash DC.

    Makes for good reading and discussion, but in the real world, it ain't
    gonna happen.

    Knowing how these detection devices work, one could easily build a
    counter device that would cause havoc with that detection device.

    The proceding bullshit was brought to you by "Lord of the Bull".
    richard, Jul 14, 2009
    #1
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  2. richard

    G. Morgan Guest

    RtS wrote:

    >Ok yeah like maybe under ideal conditions. If the oscilloscope is
    >connected to the same lines as the computer. I doubt seriously that
    >they could do this with the scope being in one building, and the
    >computer in another building across the street. Way to many varying
    >factors involved to make it happen for real.


    Once again, Bullis, you managed to insert foot in mouth. The US Government
    has known about this and exploited it since 1962.

    Read about project TEMPEST, then don't come back here to discuss it.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TEMPEST
    http://cryptome.org/tempest-time.htm
    G. Morgan, Jul 14, 2009
    #2
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  3. richard

    Evan Platt Guest

    On Tue, 14 Jul 2009 00:05:55 -0500, richard <>
    wrote:

    >On one crime scene show taking place in NYC, not the one with Sarah J
    >Parker,


    Uhhh which crime scene show is Sarah Jessica Parker in? CSI And The
    City?

    >our good guys are online and playing the game at
    >secondlife.com. They need to find a certain player toot sweet and help
    >try to get the bad guy who is after him to kill him. Within minutes
    >they find his IP. Like duh. That can be done only in Hollywood.


    With the appropriate contact at secondlife, why not? Granted in
    general they'd want a warrant, but if they agreed to release the
    information, sure.

    >Next we see them racing across manhattan island in the middle of the
    >afternoon and taking only 5 minutes to do it, they locate his
    >apartment. Which happens to be one of many in a multi story building.
    >
    >Yeah right. Not in the real world.


    Really? So with my IP address, you couldn't contact my ISP, and my ISP
    wouldn't have my address, and with the address, include the apartment
    number?

    Oh yeah. I forgot. 400 people share the same IP address.

    This, again, is where RtS drops from the conversation, because his
    ignorance has been proven.

    >I have a fairly good background in electronics. In the 70's when the
    >FCC had 3 classes of license for technicians, I held a 2nd class for
    >awhile.


    OMG... So I have a Technician class Ham license. That doesn't make me
    an electronics guru. Just proves I can memorize answers.

    >The proceding bullshit was brought to you by "Lord of the Bull".


    That's the most accurate thing you've ever said.
    --
    To reply via e-mail, remove The Obvious from my e-mail address.
    Evan Platt, Jul 14, 2009
    #3
  4. richard

    NotMe Guest

    "richard" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    :A story posted from the BBC leaves me wondering exactly just how
    : factual that is. Or is it a story of science fiction.
    :
    : I always get a kick out of watching crime scene shows and just how
    : amazing their electronic data gathering technology is. Pure science
    : fiction.
    :
    : On one crime scene show taking place in NYC, not the one with Sarah J
    : Parker, our good guys are online and playing the game at
    : secondlife.com. They need to find a certain player toot sweet and help
    : try to get the bad guy who is after him to kill him. Within minutes
    : they find his IP. Like duh. That can be done only in Hollywood. Next
    : we see them racing across Manhattan island in the middle of the
    : afternoon and taking only 5 minutes to do it, they locate his
    : apartment. Which happens to be one of many in a multi story building.
    :
    : Yeah right. Not in the real world.
    :
    : On NCIS, Jethro Gibbs and team have the uncanny ability to suddenly
    : track down any cellphone and even tell you exactly what floor and room
    : it is in. Only in Hollywood does that crap happen.
    :
    : Now this BBC story is a bit like these. The claim is that from as much
    : as 50 feet away, one can use an oscilloscope to detect which keys are
    : being pressed on a computer, via the leaking signal through the cable.
    :
    : Ok yeah like maybe under ideal conditions. If the oscilloscope is
    : connected to the same lines as the computer. I doubt seriously that
    : they could do this with the scope being in one building, and the
    : computer in another building across the street. Way to many varying
    : factors involved to make it happen for real.
    :
    : I have a fairly good background in electronics. In the 70's when the
    : FCC had 3 classes of license for technicians, I held a 2nd class for
    : awhile.
    :
    : I still though question the validity of being able to detect weak
    : radio signals specially those of items like radar detectors. A
    : detector uses a local oscillator, which was commonly manufactured at
    : 11 gigahertz. Then some brilliant soul came along with a device that
    : could actually detect this signal. I question this because it takes
    : power to transmit a signal of any distance at that frequency.
    :
    : As the radio signal frequency increases, the power required to
    : transmit the same signal the same distance also increases. A simple
    : radar detector can not possibly generate a signal that would travel
    : more than a few feet. AS there are other devices that transmit signals
    : using the same bands as radar, is it not possible then that this RDD
    : device would be triggered by a false signal? Most likely.
    :
    : Then the RD unit could only be detected while the unit is turned on.
    : Without power, it can not be detected.
    :
    : I still say that this kind of so called technology is a scare tactic.
    : Only two places in the USA ban the use of radar detectors. So if you
    : have one, stay out of Virginia and Wash DC.
    :
    : Makes for good reading and discussion, but in the real world, it ain't
    : gonna happen.
    :
    : Knowing how these detection devices work, one could easily build a
    : counter device that would cause havoc with that detection device.
    :
    : The proceeding bullshit was brought to you by "Lord of the Bull".

    Nice presentation but without sufficient facts. All electronics even those
    that have been hardened, emit EMF that can be picked up at significant
    range. As example there are commercial systems that set up along a major
    highways can log which station the cars driving past are tuned to that gives
    very accurate real time demographics on who is tuned in and to what.

    As to mentoring the key board and CRT EMF it's been done since the late 50's
    early 60's (perhaps longer as my personal experience only goes back to mid
    late 50's).

    WRT cell phones if they are on they are subject to monitoring. Most have
    GPS that can be pinged, not to mention the cell system MTSO (Mobile
    telephone switching office) can tell which cell tower and sector the phone
    is located. A bit of triangulation (the MTSO can tell the phone to switch
    towers) and you can get a very accurate location.

    Recall a few years (~10) back a woman had a breakdown in a major snow storm
    in the far north west. Cell engineer in Dallas was able to locate her
    general position and by using the signal from the rescue unit cell phone was
    able to put them on the other side of the highway from where her truck was
    buried in the snow.

    That rescue was with analog phones, the technology is much better now to the
    extent that a parent can subscribe to a service that keeps track of their
    kids: where the go, how long they stay and how fast they travel getting to
    and from. It's a service that has long been used by the trucking industry
    to track trucks and drivers.

    There's more, much more but the above is sufficient for our discussion.

    Here's a sample: enter a friend's moble phone number
    http://www.geomobiles.net/en/index.html
    NotMe, Jul 14, 2009
    #4
  5. richard

    Mara Guest

    On Mon, 13 Jul 2009 22:31:51 -0700, Evan Platt
    <> wrote:

    <snip>
    >OMG... So I have a Technician class Ham license. That doesn't make me
    >an electronics guru. Just proves I can memorize answers.


    That's how I got mine. ;)

    >>The proceding bullshit was brought to you by "Lord of the Bull".

    >
    >That's the most accurate thing you've ever said.


    --
    I am Bill Gates of Borg. Resistance is futile. You will be assimil-

    Error - General protection fault in module BORG.EXE
    Mara, Jul 14, 2009
    #5
  6. richard

    Aardvark Guest

    On Tue, 14 Jul 2009 00:05:55 -0500, richard wrote:
    < snippage of bollocks>

    >
    > The proceding bullshit was brought to you by "Lord of the Bull".


    At least you know it for what it is.

    And I think you meant 'preceding'.
    Aardvark, Jul 14, 2009
    #6
  7. richard

    Aardvark Guest

    On Mon, 13 Jul 2009 22:31:51 -0700, Evan Platt wrote:

    > Oh yeah. I forgot. 400 people share the same IP address.


    You've got that wrong. It's only 300.
    Aardvark, Jul 14, 2009
    #7
  8. richard

    Aardvark Guest

    On Tue, 14 Jul 2009 08:57:43 -0500, NotMe wrote:

    > Recall a few years (~10) back a woman had a breakdown in a major snow
    > storm in the far north west. Cell engineer in Dallas was able to locate
    > her general position and by using the signal from the rescue unit cell
    > phone was able to put them on the other side of the highway from where
    > her truck was buried in the snow.


    A system commonly used by the automobile associations- AA, RAC etc.- here
    in the UK. You don't have to know where you are, but they can get to you.
    Aardvark, Jul 14, 2009
    #8
  9. Aardvark <> deflatulated this
    with news:JM17m.91777$2:

    > On Tue, 14 Jul 2009 00:05:55 -0500, richard wrote:
    > < snippage of bollocks>
    >
    >> The proceding bullshit was brought to you by "Lord of the Bull".

    >
    > At least you know it for what it is.
    >
    > And I think you meant 'preceding'.


    Have a moniker day because you're so ghay.

    --

    I AM Bucky Breeder, (*(^; ; and *NO*,
    that is NOT a snake in my pocket; but,
    I'm NOT particularly happy to see you; furthermore,
    I am NOT any of the Palins' baby-daddy! Yet...

    "Stupid is as '§ñühw¤£f' does." --Forrest Gump's Mamma
    "Run 'Lookout', Run!" --Forrest Gump's Jenny

    Repent! The end is near.... So, smoke 'em if you got 'em.
    Bucky Breeder, Jul 14, 2009
    #9
  10. Aardvark <> deflatulated this
    with news:SR17m.91863$2:

    > On Tue, 14 Jul 2009 08:57:43 -0500, NotMe wrote:
    >
    >> Recall a few years (~10) back a woman had a breakdown in a major snow
    >> storm in the far north west. Cell engineer in Dallas was able to locate
    >> her general position and by using the signal from the rescue unit cell
    >> phone was able to put them on the other side of the highway from where
    >> her truck was buried in the snow.

    >
    > A system commonly used by the automobile associations- AA, RAC etc.- here
    > in the UK. You don't have to know where you are, but they can get to you.


    With ghay-looking English terriers that sniff out *bullshit*.

    --

    I AM Bucky Breeder, (*(^; ; and *NO*,
    that is NOT a snake in my pocket; but,
    I'm NOT particularly happy to see you; furthermore,
    I am NOT any of the Palins' baby-daddy! Yet...

    "Stupid is as '§ñühw¤£f' does." --Forrest Gump's Mamma
    "Run 'Lookout', Run!" --Forrest Gump's Jenny

    Repent! The end is near.... So, smoke 'em if you got 'em.
    Bucky Breeder, Jul 14, 2009
    #10
  11. richard

    why? Guest

    On Tue, 14 Jul 2009 00:05:55 -0500, richard wrote:

    >A story posted from the BBC leaves me wondering exactly just how
    >factual that is. Or is it a story of science fiction.


    <snip>

    >Now this BBC story is a bit like these. The claim is that from as much
    >as 50 feet away, one can use an oscilliscope to detect which keys are
    >being pressed on a computer, via the leaking signal through the cable.


    So any similar detection and decoding of very weak signals (20W) for
    sources like Voyager spacecraft 107AU away can't be used for stronger /
    closer sources.

    >Ok yeah like maybe under ideal conditions. If the oscilloscope is
    >connected to the same lines as the computer. I doubt seriously that
    >they could do this with the scope being in one building, and the
    >computer in another building across the street. Way to many varying
    >factors involved to make it happen for real.


    Then again it's not the first time some electromagnetic snooping of some
    form is a news item again, or the BBC mentioning it.

    <snip>

    Me
    why?, Jul 14, 2009
    #11
  12. richard

    G. Morgan Guest

    G. Morgan, Jul 14, 2009
    #12
  13. richard

    NotMe Guest

    "Bucky Breeder" <Breeder_Bucky.Breeder@That's.my.name_Don't.wear.it.out>
    wrote in message news:003df10c$0$4664$...
    : Aardvark <> deflatulated this
    : with news:SR17m.91863$2:
    :
    : > On Tue, 14 Jul 2009 08:57:43 -0500, NotMe wrote:
    : >
    : >> Recall a few years (~10) back a woman had a breakdown in a major snow
    : >> storm in the far north west. Cell engineer in Dallas was able to
    locate
    : >> her general position and by using the signal from the rescue unit cell
    : >> phone was able to put them on the other side of the highway from where
    : >> her truck was buried in the snow.
    : >
    : > A system commonly used by the automobile associations- AA, RAC etc.-
    here
    : > in the UK. You don't have to know where you are, but they can get to
    you.
    :
    : With ghay-looking English terriers that sniff out *bullshit*.


    There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading. The few who
    learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and
    find out for themselves.
    Will Rogers
    NotMe, Jul 15, 2009
    #13
  14. richard

    Evan Platt Guest

    On Tue, 14 Jul 2009 09:58:27 -0700, Evan Platt
    <> wrote:

    >Which Crime Scene show is Sarah Jessica Parker in?


    Yep, and RtS drops from the thread once again, proving his stupidity.
    --
    To reply via e-mail, remove The Obvious from my e-mail address.
    Evan Platt, Jul 15, 2009
    #14
  15. richard

    why? Guest

    On Wed, 15 Jul 2009 08:46:24 +0100, Scraggy wrote:

    >why? wrote:
    >> On Tue, 14 Jul 2009 00:05:55 -0500, richard wrote:
    >>
    >>> A story posted from the BBC leaves me wondering exactly just how
    >>> factual that is. Or is it a story of science fiction.

    >>
    >> <snip>
    >>
    >>> Now this BBC story is a bit like these. The claim is that from as
    >>> much as 50 feet away, one can use an oscilliscope to detect which
    >>> keys are being pressed on a computer, via the leaking signal through
    >>> the cable.


    <snip

    >> Then again it's not the first time some electromagnetic snooping of
    >> some form is a news item again, or the BBC mentioning it.
    >>
    >> <snip>
    >>
    >> Me

    >
    >
    >If you're interested, the term used is Tempest hazard;


    Thanks, it's something I have to consider in the environment I work in,
    it's part of our wiring / cabinet design regs. It's also a fairly
    serious audit failure if I get it wrong.

    >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TEMPEST


    I had that URL in, out and in of the reply and decided out, finally.

    I thought electromagnetic was complicated enough for richard.

    <snip>

    Me
    why?, Jul 15, 2009
    #15
  16. richard

    Evan Platt Guest

    On Wed, 15 Jul 2009 20:45:23 -0500, richard <>
    wrote:

    >Thanks dude. Looks like my speculation of 300 is child's play for IP
    >sharing. Whatch ya got to say now Evan? Somebody showed you up and you
    >don't even reply? Chicken shit.


    Have a read at Harvard, dumb shit. Unless you claim to know more than
    Harvard Law. Especially the part that an IP address is unique and no
    other computer on the Internet has the same IP address.

    But, you know more than Harvard, right?

    http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/archived_content/people/edelman/ip-sharing/


    IP Sharing

    Web sites are hosted on web servers, computers running specialized
    software that distribute web content as requested. Each server
    typically has a single IP address, a unique numeric identifier
    assigned to no other computer on the entire Internet. (To the extent
    that a single server uses multiple IP addresses, it is for purposes of
    this document effectively multiple servers -- for its distinct IP
    addresses could be filtered separately and independently by those who
    seek to restrict access to web content.) Web sites are typically
    associated with domain names -- textual strings like "yahoo.com" that
    are easier for users to remember than numeric IP addresses.

    Under the initial version of the HTTP specification that defines the
    transfer of web content, web servers receive from web browsers only
    the name of the requested file, without any supplemental information
    as to the web site hosting that file. "Give me the file /index.html,"
    a browser might say to a server; if the server happened to host
    multiple web sites, each with a file of that name, the server could
    not know which file to provide. As a result, under the initial version
    of HTTP, each domain name with web content needed its own IP address.
    If a server was to host several web sites, each with its own domain
    name, the server would need that many IP addresses, and it would
    provide the appropriate files by tracking which IP address was the
    recipient of which requests.
    --
    To reply via e-mail, remove The Obvious from my e-mail address.
    Evan Platt, Jul 16, 2009
    #16
  17. richard

    Evan Platt Guest

    On Wed, 15 Jul 2009 20:40:41 -0500, richard <>
    wrote:

    >Obviously you have not cable tv or you'd know. Or you don't watch tv
    >at all.


    I have cable TV. Obviously it's a show I don't watch, and neither do
    anyone who updates IMDB.

    >>It can and does happen.

    >
    >Not legally. Without a proper search warrant no ISP has to divulge
    >private information to any one. Including the cops.


    That's what I said.

    People speed. Not legally, but it does happen.

    >Then tell me sir, one of great extensive knowledge, somewhere between
    >a pinhead and a turnip, just exactly how is that one IP can hold
    >dozens of domain names and each act independently?
    >On my server, I have one IP, with two domains. According to you, that
    >ain't possible.


    *Sigh* I did tell you this. A number of times. But I'll type it slower
    for you this time.

    A single IP address can hold as many domains as needed.

    How?

    Let's say it's a web server. Type the IP address into your web
    browser. You'll probably get a "Default" page.

    When you go to say www.google.com , behind the scenes your computer
    figures out the IP and goes to that IP, and says "Please get me
    www.google.com". So when your request for that website goes to that
    IP, it also sends the URL requested.

    Think about it for a minute. >>Oh wait, there's no way you're in
    school.

    >
    >I may be soon. As I want to get into computer animation.


    First learn computers. Then worry about computer animation.
    --
    To reply via e-mail, remove The Obvious from my e-mail address.
    Evan Platt, Jul 16, 2009
    #17
  18. richard

    Evan Platt Guest

    Evan Platt, Jul 16, 2009
    #18
  19. richard

    G. Morgan Guest

    richard wrote:

    >>That is not what Evan and RtS were originally talking about. They were
    >>talking about an individual's access from an ISP, not a organization sharing
    >>the same high-speed gateway.

    >
    >True, but same basic principal.
    >
    >Now how many IP's is any one ISP assigned?
    >Usually they are assigned a block like 10.10.0.0 throuh 10.10.255.255.
    >That gives 65000 possible IP's. Ok, so the ISP has 100,000 customers.
    >35000 cant get online?


    Not at the same time, not if the connection is "always on", as in the case of
    cable and DSL.

    >As I've tried to explain this before. AN IP is something like a
    >switchboard at a business. A business has 1 phone line you call into.
    >But has 200 extensions. Now how is it possible all 200 extensions can
    >be in use at the same time? Simple. Software management.


    You're talking about a dynamic address pool, often used for dial-up accounts
    only. Still, only one customer gets to use one public IP at a time and the
    ISP knows to whom that IP was assigned to at any given time.

    So, your argument still holds no water. The only way more than 2 hosts can
    share the same public IP is if that IP is being used as a gateway for a
    private network, and that is NOT what you said in the initial argument.
    G. Morgan, Jul 16, 2009
    #19
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