A Tune for your Zune, you're not Immune...

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Sep 20, 2006.

  1. Not sure what to make of this item
    <http://theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=34478>. Basically, if you were
    sucked into Microsoft's previous "Plays For Sure" marketing exercise, then
    none of the music you paid good money for will play on a Zune. Same applies
    for any video material you might have bought.

    So how do you get stuff into your new Zune gizmo? Basically, you have to
    break the law and use copy-protection circumvention tools to rip content
    into a Zune-compatible format.

    Is this good or bad? From a compatibility-with-existing-products viewpoint,
    it looks like a Visaster. But then again, the requirement of illegality
    might appeal to a certain rebel, "bad-boy" element...
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Sep 20, 2006
    #1
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  2. More on the Zune. According to this
    <http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/09/28/zune_pricing/>, Microsoft will
    take a _loss_ on each Zune sold, and make up the profit on the content.

    Which is completely the opposite of Apple's model: the iTunes Music Store
    doesn't make (much) money, most of the profit comes from selling iPods.
    Which is just as well, because a recent survey I believe showed that most
    of the music on people's iPods did _not_ come from the iTunes Music Store.

    Which makes me wonder how Microsoft is going to succeed with the Zune...
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Sep 29, 2006
    #2
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  3. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    -=rjh=- Guest

    Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    > More on the Zune. According to this
    > <http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/09/28/zune_pricing/>, Microsoft will
    > take a _loss_ on each Zune sold, and make up the profit on the content.
    >
    > Which is completely the opposite of Apple's model: the iTunes Music Store
    > doesn't make (much) money, most of the profit comes from selling iPods.
    > Which is just as well, because a recent survey I believe showed that most
    > of the music on people's iPods did _not_ come from the iTunes Music Store.
    >
    > Which makes me wonder how Microsoft is going to succeed with the Zune...


    Standard MS business model - it doesn't have to succeed - it's an ipod
    killer.

    So that is all it has to do :)

    Maybe they are just saying they'll make a loss to encourage people to
    buy more - I'll take 10 :) The hardware actually looks quite nice anyway.

    Meanwhile, this is continuing the trend of really neat hardware, totally
    stuffed up by marketing and DRM: e-book reader, HD displays, Zune...
     
    -=rjh=-, Sep 29, 2006
    #3
  4. In message <>, -=rjh=- wrote:

    > Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >
    >> Which makes me wonder how Microsoft is going to succeed with the Zune...

    >
    > Standard MS business model - it doesn't have to succeed - it's an ipod
    > killer.


    Yeah, but if it a) doesn't achieve significant market penetration, and b)
    earn a profit for the company, then it just makes them look like bumbling
    incompetents. Not to mention further depressing their share price and
    pissing off their shareholders. Not something you can continue doing
    indefinitely.

    > Meanwhile, this is continuing the trend of really neat hardware, totally
    > stuffed up by marketing and DRM: e-book reader, HD displays, Zune...


    Yup. *Sigh* ...
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Sep 29, 2006
    #4
  5. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Earl Grey Guest

    -=rjh=- wrote:
    > Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >> More on the Zune. According to this
    >> <http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/09/28/zune_pricing/>, Microsoft will
    >> take a _loss_ on each Zune sold, and make up the profit on the content.
    >>
    >> Which is completely the opposite of Apple's model: the iTunes Music Store
    >> doesn't make (much) money, most of the profit comes from selling iPods.
    >> Which is just as well, because a recent survey I believe showed that most
    >> of the music on people's iPods did _not_ come from the iTunes Music
    >> Store.
    >>
    >> Which makes me wonder how Microsoft is going to succeed with the Zune...

    >
    > Standard MS business model - it doesn't have to succeed - it's an ipod
    > killer.
    >
    > So that is all it has to do :)
    >
    > Maybe they are just saying they'll make a loss to encourage people to
    > buy more - I'll take 10 :) The hardware actually looks quite nice anyway.


    If thats all there was to it then the Toshiba Gigabeat would already
    have killed the ipod :)
    http://www.engadget.com/2006/01/05/toshiba-gigabeat-s-portable-media-center-with-2-4-inch-qvga-lcd/
     
    Earl Grey, Sep 29, 2006
    #5
  6. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    -=rjh=- Guest

    Earl Grey wrote:
    > -=rjh=- wrote:
    >> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>> More on the Zune. According to this
    >>> <http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/09/28/zune_pricing/>, Microsoft will
    >>> take a _loss_ on each Zune sold, and make up the profit on the content.
    >>>
    >>> Which is completely the opposite of Apple's model: the iTunes Music
    >>> Store
    >>> doesn't make (much) money, most of the profit comes from selling iPods.
    >>> Which is just as well, because a recent survey I believe showed that
    >>> most
    >>> of the music on people's iPods did _not_ come from the iTunes Music
    >>> Store.
    >>>
    >>> Which makes me wonder how Microsoft is going to succeed with the Zune...

    >>
    >> Standard MS business model - it doesn't have to succeed - it's an ipod
    >> killer.
    >>
    >> So that is all it has to do :)
    >>
    >> Maybe they are just saying they'll make a loss to encourage people to
    >> buy more - I'll take 10 :) The hardware actually looks quite nice
    >> anyway.

    >
    > If thats all there was to it then the Toshiba Gigabeat would already
    > have killed the ipod :)
    > http://www.engadget.com/2006/01/05/toshiba-gigabeat-s-portable-media-center-with-2-4-inch-qvga-lcd/
    >


    But I could name several other players that offer better value/more
    features than the ipod.

    Obviously, there is a lot more to it; but basically, this is ipod vs the
    rest. At the moment, the rest are a hodgepodge of different
    manufacturers and capabilities with no unifying features that the
    customer can discern (I'll bet the average customer doesn't look at this
    as itunes VS WMP).

    Almost everybody associates ipod with media players, just like people
    still call PocketPCs 'Palm Pilots', and the Pilot hasn't been made for
    10 years or so.

    Apple has cleaned up because the rest of the market is so fragmented, if
    MS had done Zune a few years ago, they may have been able to get some
    traction, but I'd say it is too late now - none of the other
    manufacturers are going to walk away from their investment in the
    market, because the market is so big.

    Maybe if the market shrank, things would be different, but that seems
    unlikely at present.
     
    -=rjh=-, Sep 29, 2006
    #6
  7. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Earl Grey Guest

    -=rjh=- wrote:
    > Earl Grey wrote:
    >> -=rjh=- wrote:
    >>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>>> More on the Zune. According to this
    >>>> <http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/09/28/zune_pricing/>, Microsoft will
    >>>> take a _loss_ on each Zune sold, and make up the profit on the content.
    >>>>
    >>>> Which is completely the opposite of Apple's model: the iTunes Music
    >>>> Store
    >>>> doesn't make (much) money, most of the profit comes from selling iPods.
    >>>> Which is just as well, because a recent survey I believe showed that
    >>>> most
    >>>> of the music on people's iPods did _not_ come from the iTunes Music
    >>>> Store.
    >>>>
    >>>> Which makes me wonder how Microsoft is going to succeed with the
    >>>> Zune...
    >>>
    >>> Standard MS business model - it doesn't have to succeed - it's an
    >>> ipod killer.
    >>>
    >>> So that is all it has to do :)
    >>>
    >>> Maybe they are just saying they'll make a loss to encourage people to
    >>> buy more - I'll take 10 :) The hardware actually looks quite nice
    >>> anyway.

    >>
    >> If thats all there was to it then the Toshiba Gigabeat would already
    >> have killed the ipod :)
    >> http://www.engadget.com/2006/01/05/toshiba-gigabeat-s-portable-media-center-with-2-4-inch-qvga-lcd/
    >>

    >
    > But I could name several other players that offer better value/more
    > features than the ipod.
    >

    The Toshiba Gigabeat S is the player that has been rebranded Microsoft
    Zune, which is why I mentioned in specifically.
    Better value would be marginal and the ipod looks like it has a quite
    intentionally restricted feature set.
    Its success is due to making it as simple as possible for someone who
    has never connected another device to their computer before.
    There are lessons to be learned from the way they did it.
     
    Earl Grey, Sep 29, 2006
    #7
  8. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Earl Grey Guest

    -=rjh=- wrote:
    > Earl Grey wrote:
    >> -=rjh=- wrote:
    >>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>>> More on the Zune. According to this
    >>>> <http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/09/28/zune_pricing/>, Microsoft will
    >>>> take a _loss_ on each Zune sold, and make up the profit on the content.
    >>>>
    >>>> Which is completely the opposite of Apple's model: the iTunes Music
    >>>> Store
    >>>> doesn't make (much) money, most of the profit comes from selling iPods.
    >>>> Which is just as well, because a recent survey I believe showed that
    >>>> most
    >>>> of the music on people's iPods did _not_ come from the iTunes Music
    >>>> Store.
    >>>>
    >>>> Which makes me wonder how Microsoft is going to succeed with the
    >>>> Zune...
    >>>
    >>> Standard MS business model - it doesn't have to succeed - it's an
    >>> ipod killer.
    >>>
    >>> So that is all it has to do :)
    >>>
    >>> Maybe they are just saying they'll make a loss to encourage people to
    >>> buy more - I'll take 10 :) The hardware actually looks quite nice
    >>> anyway.

    >>
    >> If thats all there was to it then the Toshiba Gigabeat would already
    >> have killed the ipod :)
    >> http://www.engadget.com/2006/01/05/toshiba-gigabeat-s-portable-media-center-with-2-4-inch-qvga-lcd/
    >>

    >
    > But I could name several other players that offer better value/more
    > features than the ipod.
    >
    > Obviously, there is a lot more to it; but basically, this is ipod vs the
    > rest. At the moment, the rest are a hodgepodge of different
    > manufacturers and capabilities with no unifying features that the
    > customer can discern (I'll bet the average customer doesn't look at this
    > as itunes VS WMP).
    >
    > Almost everybody associates ipod with media players, just like people
    > still call PocketPCs 'Palm Pilots', and the Pilot hasn't been made for
    > 10 years or so.
    >


    Yup, its now an iconic object, which is a status that Apple hasn't had
    since they discontinued the classic Mac

    Social: http://pridesandprejudices.com/2006-09-29.html
    Political: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4435639.stm
    Geographic:
    http://www.gearthblog.com/blog/archives/2006/03/apple_ipod_ad_i.html
    http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2005/21mar_podcast.htm?list1263752
    http://www.macobserver.com/article/2004/05/10.10.shtml

    Its got more pop culture mindshare than the bunny vibe on Sex and the
    City :p
     
    Earl Grey, Sep 30, 2006
    #8
  9. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    -=rjh=- Guest

    Earl Grey wrote:
    > -=rjh=- wrote:
    >> Earl Grey wrote:
    >>> -=rjh=- wrote:
    >>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>>>> More on the Zune. According to this
    >>>>> <http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/09/28/zune_pricing/>, Microsoft
    >>>>> will
    >>>>> take a _loss_ on each Zune sold, and make up the profit on the
    >>>>> content.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Which is completely the opposite of Apple's model: the iTunes Music
    >>>>> Store
    >>>>> doesn't make (much) money, most of the profit comes from selling
    >>>>> iPods.
    >>>>> Which is just as well, because a recent survey I believe showed
    >>>>> that most
    >>>>> of the music on people's iPods did _not_ come from the iTunes Music
    >>>>> Store.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Which makes me wonder how Microsoft is going to succeed with the
    >>>>> Zune...
    >>>>
    >>>> Standard MS business model - it doesn't have to succeed - it's an
    >>>> ipod killer.
    >>>>
    >>>> So that is all it has to do :)
    >>>>
    >>>> Maybe they are just saying they'll make a loss to encourage people
    >>>> to buy more - I'll take 10 :) The hardware actually looks quite
    >>>> nice anyway.
    >>>
    >>> If thats all there was to it then the Toshiba Gigabeat would already
    >>> have killed the ipod :)
    >>> http://www.engadget.com/2006/01/05/toshiba-gigabeat-s-portable-media-center-with-2-4-inch-qvga-lcd/
    >>>

    >>
    >> But I could name several other players that offer better value/more
    >> features than the ipod.
    >>

    > The Toshiba Gigabeat S is the player that has been rebranded Microsoft
    > Zune, which is why I mentioned in specifically.


    What a crock. Do some research.

    I don't buy that story, this is some use of the term "rebranding" that I
    was not previously familiar with. Have you got a reference for your
    assertion - other than all the hype around some analysts speculation and
    the subsequent uncritical promotion of that on various fora around the
    net? The Mac and ipod fanboys and MS knockers have been particularly
    active promoting this.

    Given that the two devices have different feature sets, play different
    files, use different DRM, and have different hardware, I don't see how
    this can be true.

    If you compare the internals of the device that was submitted to the FCC
    and the internals of the Gigabeat S it is quite clear that they are not
    the same device. They don't even use the same battery.

    http://www.engadget.com/2006/08/25/fcc-reveals-toshiba-1089-and-its-looking-a-whole-lot-like-a/
    http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.engadget.com/media/2006/08/zunesysboard.jpg
    vs
    http://www.anythingbutipod.com/archives/2006/06/toshiba-gigabeat-s30-teardown.php
    http://www.anythingbutipod.com/archives/images/gigabeat-s/gigabeat-s-apart-front.php

    Given that the devices are both made by Toshiba, they are likely to
    share a lot of componentry, and the form factor is pretty well defined
    these days anyway - but this isn't unusual, and doesn't mean the Zune is
    just a rebranded version of the other.

    Seems in retrospect that the reason BG was so happy to show the Gigabeat
    S was merely because MS had already negotiated a contract for the Zune
    at that stage. And that he already knew what nobody else did - that MS
    was going to compete with all the other players out there.

    > Better value would be marginal and the ipod looks like it has a quite
    > intentionally restricted feature set.


    Speaking of which, the Zune will only use wifi to talk to other Zunes,
    and then only to share songs that can only be played 3 times within 3
    days. How restricted is that?


    I think the Zune will *easily* be as successful as Origami.
     
    -=rjh=-, Sep 30, 2006
    #9
  10. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Earl Grey Guest

    -=rjh=- wrote:
    > Earl Grey wrote:
    >> -=rjh=- wrote:
    >>> Earl Grey wrote:
    >>>> -=rjh=- wrote:
    >>>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>>>>> More on the Zune. According to this
    >>>>>> <http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/09/28/zune_pricing/>, Microsoft
    >>>>>> will
    >>>>>> take a _loss_ on each Zune sold, and make up the profit on the
    >>>>>> content.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Which is completely the opposite of Apple's model: the iTunes
    >>>>>> Music Store
    >>>>>> doesn't make (much) money, most of the profit comes from selling
    >>>>>> iPods.
    >>>>>> Which is just as well, because a recent survey I believe showed
    >>>>>> that most
    >>>>>> of the music on people's iPods did _not_ come from the iTunes
    >>>>>> Music Store.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Which makes me wonder how Microsoft is going to succeed with the
    >>>>>> Zune...
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Standard MS business model - it doesn't have to succeed - it's an
    >>>>> ipod killer.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> So that is all it has to do :)
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Maybe they are just saying they'll make a loss to encourage people
    >>>>> to buy more - I'll take 10 :) The hardware actually looks quite
    >>>>> nice anyway.
    >>>>
    >>>> If thats all there was to it then the Toshiba Gigabeat would already
    >>>> have killed the ipod :)
    >>>> http://www.engadget.com/2006/01/05/toshiba-gigabeat-s-portable-media-center-with-2-4-inch-qvga-lcd/
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>> But I could name several other players that offer better value/more
    >>> features than the ipod.
    >>>

    >> The Toshiba Gigabeat S is the player that has been rebranded Microsoft
    >> Zune, which is why I mentioned in specifically.

    >
    > What a crock. Do some research.
    >
    > I don't buy that story, this is some use of the term "rebranding" that I
    > was not previously familiar with. Have you got a reference for your
    > assertion - other than all the hype around some analysts speculation and
    > the subsequent uncritical promotion of that on various fora around the
    > net? The Mac and ipod fanboys and MS knockers have been particularly
    > active promoting this.
    >
    > Given that the two devices have different feature sets, play different
    > files, use different DRM, and have different hardware, I don't see how
    > this can be true.
    >
    > If you compare the internals of the device that was submitted to the FCC
    > and the internals of the Gigabeat S it is quite clear that they are not
    > the same device. They don't even use the same battery.
    >
    > http://www.engadget.com/2006/08/25/fcc-reveals-toshiba-1089-and-its-looking-a-whole-lot-like-a/
    >
    > http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.engadget.com/media/2006/08/zunesysboard.jpg
    >
    > vs
    > http://www.anythingbutipod.com/archives/2006/06/toshiba-gigabeat-s30-teardown.php
    >
    > http://www.anythingbutipod.com/archives/images/gigabeat-s/gigabeat-s-apart-front.php
    >
    >
    > Given that the devices are both made by Toshiba, they are likely to
    > share a lot of componentry, and the form factor is pretty well defined
    > these days anyway - but this isn't unusual, and doesn't mean the Zune is
    > just a rebranded version of the other.


    Well thats just revolutionary then isn't it ?


    >
    > Seems in retrospect that the reason BG was so happy to show the Gigabeat
    > S was merely because MS had already negotiated a contract for the Zune
    > at that stage. And that he already knew what nobody else did - that MS
    > was going to compete with all the other players out there.
    >
    >> Better value would be marginal and the ipod looks like it has a quite
    >> intentionally restricted feature set.

    >
    > Speaking of which, the Zune will only use wifi to talk to other Zunes,
    > and then only to share songs that can only be played 3 times within 3
    > days. How restricted is that?
    >
    >
    > I think the Zune will *easily* be as successful as Origami.


    I'm looking forward to seeing the third party OS hacks to use the wifi
    to stream from an access point then.
     
    Earl Grey, Sep 30, 2006
    #10
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