A podcast interview with Peter Gutmann on Vista DRM

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by Dianthus Mimulus, Jan 14, 2007.

  1. Dianthus Mimulus, Jan 14, 2007
    #1
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  2. In message <>, Dianthus Mimulus wrote:

    > http://www.grc.com/sn/SN-074.htm


    Leo: What you’re describing is an operating system that is essentially
    insanely paranoid. It’s gone off the deep end.
    PETER: That’s true.
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Jan 14, 2007
    #2
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  3. I think this DRM crap in Windows NT 6 is great. It just provides
    another reason for people to switch to Linux. Its just one more
    advantage that Linux has over windows now. And Microsoft was kind
    enough to pay all of the development costs too.

    On 14 Jan 2007 14:23:25 +1300, Dianthus Mimulus
    <> wrote:

    >http://www.grc.com/sn/SN-074.htm
    >
    >High quality (64 kbps) mp3 audio file URL:
    >http://media.GRC.com/sn/SN-074.mp3
    >
    >Quarter size (16 kbps) mp3 audio file URL:
    >http://media.GRC.com/sn/sn-074-lq.mp3
    >
    >
    >--
    >Dianthus Mimulus
    >
    >Microsoft's business practises exposed in court:
    >http://www.maxframe.com/DR/Info/fullstory/dsprgmnt.html#_Toc447960918
    David Goodwin, Jan 14, 2007
    #3
  4. Dianthus Mimulus

    Phil Guest

    David Goodwin wrote, On 14/01/07 3.53 p:
    > I think this DRM crap in Windows NT 6 is great. It just provides
    > another reason for people to switch to Linux. Its just one more
    > advantage that Linux has over windows now. And Microsoft was kind
    > enough to pay all of the development costs too.


    How is it an advantage not to at least support DRM? If you're customers
    want to play new HD content, and you don't support it, you've lost them.

    -Phil
    Phil, Jan 14, 2007
    #4
  5. In message <>, Phil wrote:

    > David Goodwin wrote, On 14/01/07 3.53 p:
    >
    >> I think this DRM crap in Windows NT 6 is great. It just provides
    >> another reason for people to switch to Linux. Its just one more
    >> advantage that Linux has over windows now. And Microsoft was kind
    >> enough to pay all of the development costs too.

    >
    > How is it an advantage not to at least support DRM? If [your] customers
    > want to play new HD content...


    Wrong assumption. Your assumption is really "If your customers want to put
    up with the hoops they will have to jump through and the bullshit as thick
    as treacle that they will have to wade through to play new HD content...".

    Once it is clarified in that way, you realize that the pool of such
    customers may turn out to be smaller than some are expecting.
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Jan 14, 2007
    #5
  6. On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 22:33:46 +1300, Phil wrote:

    > How is it an advantage not to at least support DRM? If you're customers
    > want to play new HD content, and you don't support it, you've lost them.


    You don't need to implement the restrictions - merely implement the
    ability to decode and to play the HD-DVD content.

    Why implement any of the restrictions?


    --
    Dianthus Mimulus

    Microsoft's business practises exposed in court:
    http://www.maxframe.com/DR/Info/fullstory/dsprgmnt.html#_Toc447960918
    Dianthus Mimulus, Jan 14, 2007
    #6
  7. "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in message
    news:eocvj5$1fd$...
    > In message <>, Phil wrote:
    >
    >> David Goodwin wrote, On 14/01/07 3.53 p:
    >>
    >>> I think this DRM crap in Windows NT 6 is great. It just provides
    >>> another reason for people to switch to Linux. Its just one more
    >>> advantage that Linux has over windows now. And Microsoft was kind
    >>> enough to pay all of the development costs too.

    >>
    >> How is it an advantage not to at least support DRM? If [your] customers
    >> want to play new HD content...

    >
    > Wrong assumption. Your assumption is really "If your customers want to put
    > up with the hoops they will have to jump through and the bullshit as thick
    > as treacle that they will have to wade through to play new HD content...".


    How are you going to stop/make it hard for people to make a 100% copy of
    your work?

    hoops? If your OS/Hardware supports DRM then the encrypted stuff will just
    work. If not then it will not work. If you don't accept you have to use
    something which supports it then no one is forcing you to watch it. Do you
    want to Watch protected movies without accepting the T&C of actually
    watching it?

    Is you real problem DRM? not Vista or other OS's which support DRM or other
    copyright methods? If you think any kind of copyright methods are bad then
    get rid of your VCR Tapes /Units (Macrovision), your DVD players
    (macrovision,css), your cellphones, smart cards, Sky TV, even your unix
    passwords are encrypted so no one else can use your computer without your
    permission + anything else which has any kind of encryption to limit what
    you can or cannot do with the data on it.

    Craig
    Craig Whitmore, Jan 14, 2007
    #7
  8. In article <>, says...
    > Subject: Re: A podcast interview with Peter Gutmann on Vista DRM
    > From: David Goodwin <>
    > Newsgroups: nz.comp
    >
    > I think this DRM crap in Windows NT 6 is great. It just provides
    > another reason for people to switch to Linux. Its just one more
    > advantage that Linux has over windows now. And Microsoft was kind
    > enough to pay all of the development costs too.
    >


    I am afraid you are fucking dreaming. Consider: ATI and NVidia are going to
    start filling up their sound and graphics reproducing chips with all kinds of
    crap, tilt bits and what have you to support Vista and Mickeysoft.
    We are talking HARDWARE. And you will no longer get access to the specs, so it
    will be much, much harder to write drivers for it, never mind if you are going
    to be running BEOS, Tiger or Windows 98 on it.

    In other words: we are all going to get screwed, because the hardware
    manufacurers will NOT be ignoring Mickeysoft on this one. And you linux guys
    may well get screwed even worse than windows users. Congratulations.

    -Peter

    --
    =========================================
    firstname dot lastname at gmail fullstop com
    Peter Huebner, Jan 14, 2007
    #8
  9. In article <>, lid says...
    >
    > You don't need to implement the restrictions - merely implement the
    > ability to decode and to play the HD-DVD content.
    >
    > Why implement any of the restrictions?
    >


    Read the interview again. Pay specific attention to what was said about
    hardware implementation with dependencies in the OS. Pay attention to what was
    said about 'not documenting the workings of the devices'. Now explain to me how
    you will write a [linux] driver that does decryption, for a partially
    undocumented grafix device with incorporated, hardwired malware (by trial and
    error? I think not).

    Basically, there is only one way of cicumventing this stuff, and that is buying
    hardware that doesn't have the crap implemented and hardwired in (yet).

    Fan-bloody-tastic.

    I have been sitting here for the last 6-9 months wondering if I should think
    about upgrading NOW, before it's too late - when I don't even know what gear is
    already infected -- or if I just shouldn't bother. I don't give a shit about
    HD-tv on my comp.
    And I don't need a bleeding edge system for twitchies, I am fine playing
    nethack on this system, until it falls over. Which, sadly, it will eventually
    do. :-( I will most certainly not be supporting the Evil Empire (and by that I
    mean the unholy alliance of Microsoft and Hollywood) with my dollars; either by
    purchasing ANY drm media nor by buying Vista.

    -Peter

    --
    =========================================
    firstname dot lastname at gmail fullstop com
    Peter Huebner, Jan 14, 2007
    #9
  10. On Mon, 15 Jan 2007 01:43:34 +1300, Peter Huebner
    <> wrote:
    >I am afraid you are fucking dreaming. Consider: ATI and NVidia are going to
    >start filling up their sound and graphics reproducing chips with all kinds of
    >crap, tilt bits and what have you to support Vista and Mickeysoft.
    >We are talking HARDWARE. And you will no longer get access to the specs, so it
    >will be much, much harder to write drivers for it, never mind if you are going
    >to be running BEOS, Tiger or Windows 98 on it.
    >
    >In other words: we are all going to get screwed, because the hardware
    >manufacurers will NOT be ignoring Mickeysoft on this one. And you linux guys
    >may well get screwed even worse than windows users. Congratulations.
    >


    While there is certainly a very real risk of infected hardware causing
    problems Im not sure that it will be much different from the current
    situation. Right now AMD and NVidia keep the specs of their video
    cards secret and their linux drivers are closed source and only
    provided in binary form. About the only way the AMD/NVidia situation
    could get worse is if they discontinued linux driver support entirely.
    David Goodwin, Jan 14, 2007
    #10
  11. On Mon, 15 Jan 2007 01:43:34 +1300, Peter Huebner wrote:

    > I am afraid you are fucking dreaming. Consider: ATI and NVidia are going
    > to start filling up their sound and graphics reproducing chips with all
    > kinds of crap, tilt bits and what have you to support Vista and
    > Mickeysoft. We are talking HARDWARE. And you will no longer get access
    > to the specs, so it will be much, much harder to write drivers for it,
    > never mind if you are going to be running BEOS, Tiger or Windows 98 on
    > it.
    >
    > In other words: we are all going to get screwed, because the hardware
    > manufacurers will NOT be ignoring Mickeysoft on this one. And you linux
    > guys may well get screwed even worse than windows users.
    > Congratulations.


    I disagree with you.

    My reasons are as follows:

    1/ without the OS constantly monitoring the hardware and then turning on
    the DRM degradation the quality of the material going through the
    video/audio cards will not be degraded.

    2/ Even *if* such degradation was automatically turned on by the hardware
    out of control of the OS, it would only be a matter of time before that is
    reverse engineered and that fault fixed.


    --
    Dianthus Mimulus

    Microsoft's business practises exposed in court:
    http://www.maxframe.com/DR/Info/fullstory/dsprgmnt.html#_Toc447960918
    Dianthus Mimulus, Jan 14, 2007
    #11
  12. Dianthus Mimulus

    Earl Grey Guest

    Peter Huebner wrote:
    > In article <>, says...
    >> Subject: Re: A podcast interview with Peter Gutmann on Vista DRM
    >> From: David Goodwin <>
    >> Newsgroups: nz.comp
    >>
    >> I think this DRM crap in Windows NT 6 is great. It just provides
    >> another reason for people to switch to Linux. Its just one more
    >> advantage that Linux has over windows now. And Microsoft was kind
    >> enough to pay all of the development costs too.
    >>

    >
    > I am afraid you are fucking dreaming. Consider: ATI and NVidia are going to
    > start filling up their sound and graphics reproducing chips with all kinds of
    > crap, tilt bits and what have you to support Vista and Mickeysoft.
    > We are talking HARDWARE. And you will no longer get access to the specs, so it
    > will be much, much harder to write drivers for it, never mind if you are going
    > to be running BEOS, Tiger or Windows 98 on it.
    >
    > In other words: we are all going to get screwed, because the hardware
    > manufacurers will NOT be ignoring Mickeysoft on this one. And you linux guys
    > may well get screwed even worse than windows users. Congratulations.
    >
    > -Peter
    >

    Wow that straw man is getting a good kicking !
    Earl Grey, Jan 14, 2007
    #12
  13. Dianthus Mimulus

    Earl Grey Guest

    Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    > In message <>, Phil wrote:
    >
    >> David Goodwin wrote, On 14/01/07 3.53 p:
    >>
    >>> I think this DRM crap in Windows NT 6 is great. It just provides
    >>> another reason for people to switch to Linux. Its just one more
    >>> advantage that Linux has over windows now. And Microsoft was kind
    >>> enough to pay all of the development costs too.

    >> How is it an advantage not to at least support DRM? If [your] customers
    >> want to play new HD content...

    >
    > Wrong assumption. Your assumption is really "If your customers want to put
    > up with the hoops they will have to jump through and the bullshit as thick
    > as treacle that they will have to wade through to play new HD content...".
    >
    > Once it is clarified in that way, you realize that the pool of such
    > customers may turn out to be smaller than some are expecting.
    >

    You might even get the idea that they don't want you to play HD content
    on your computer.
    Earl Grey, Jan 14, 2007
    #13
  14. Dianthus Mimulus

    Fred Dagg Guest

    On 15 Jan 2007 07:12:14 +1300, Dianthus Mimulus
    <> exclaimed:

    >On Mon, 15 Jan 2007 01:43:34 +1300, Peter Huebner wrote:
    >
    >> I am afraid you are fucking dreaming. Consider: ATI and NVidia are going
    >> to start filling up their sound and graphics reproducing chips with all
    >> kinds of crap, tilt bits and what have you to support Vista and
    >> Mickeysoft. We are talking HARDWARE. And you will no longer get access
    >> to the specs, so it will be much, much harder to write drivers for it,
    >> never mind if you are going to be running BEOS, Tiger or Windows 98 on
    >> it.
    >>
    >> In other words: we are all going to get screwed, because the hardware
    >> manufacurers will NOT be ignoring Mickeysoft on this one. And you linux
    >> guys may well get screwed even worse than windows users.
    >> Congratulations.

    >
    >I disagree with you.
    >
    >My reasons are as follows:
    >
    >1/ without the OS constantly monitoring the hardware and then turning on
    >the DRM degradation the quality of the material going through the
    >video/audio cards will not be degraded.
    >
    >2/ Even *if* such degradation was automatically turned on by the hardware
    >out of control of the OS, it would only be a matter of time before that is
    >reverse engineered and that fault fixed.


    You obviously don't understand how it works. Not altogether surprising
    - this is the case with most things with you.

    It's not that the hardware is "degrading" anything. There are two
    streams of video - the HD content, which is highly encrypted, and the
    standard content. The standard content is still DVD quality, so it's
    not entirely shite.

    Unless a binary player is released, which is highly unlikely given the
    high risk of reverse engineering, Linux will only be able to play the
    standard content, not the HD content. This is the same as if it is
    played on any other device or OS that does not have the security that
    Hollywood demands.

    I'm not a huge fan of the DRM, but at least it allows high definition
    high quality video to be played back.

    Again, we're going to be in a position where Windows users have access
    to the best quality, and Linux users are stuck with the shite, while
    prancing on about "freedom", blah, blah, which is exactly why the
    Linux advocacy nuts are going on so much about DRM - it's not the DRM
    that worries them, it's the fact that Vista is capable of playing HD
    movies, whereas Linux is not.


    --
    Stupidest Comment of the Year Award:

    "People should take responsibility for their actions"

    - (Leftist) Matty F (7/1/2007), when explaining it was actually the quadbiker's fault that he was brutally murdered by Graeme Burton. According to Matty F, it was his fault that he was in the wrong place at the wrong time...
    Fred Dagg, Jan 14, 2007
    #14
  15. On Mon, 15 Jan 2007 11:30:02 +1300, Fred Dagg <>
    wrote:
    >You obviously don't understand how it works. Not altogether surprising
    >- this is the case with most things with you.
    >
    >It's not that the hardware is "degrading" anything. There are two
    >streams of video - the HD content, which is highly encrypted, and the
    >standard content. The standard content is still DVD quality, so it's
    >not entirely shite.
    >
    >Unless a binary player is released, which is highly unlikely given the
    >high risk of reverse engineering, Linux will only be able to play the
    >standard content, not the HD content. This is the same as if it is
    >played on any other device or OS that does not have the security that
    >Hollywood demands.
    >
    >I'm not a huge fan of the DRM, but at least it allows high definition
    >high quality video to be played back.
    >
    >Again, we're going to be in a position where Windows users have access
    >to the best quality, and Linux users are stuck with the shite, while
    >prancing on about "freedom", blah, blah, which is exactly why the
    >Linux advocacy nuts are going on so much about DRM - it's not the DRM
    >that worries them, it's the fact that Vista is capable of playing HD
    >movies, whereas Linux is not.
    >


    Once again, this encryption /isnt/ required for HD playback. The
    encyrption, degrading of content and other such things is all /extra/
    stuff. You dont need it for video playback. You can decode AACS just
    fine without it.

    Years back when the DVD appeared people could have said the exact same
    thing. DVD discs are protected by CSS and there were no official DVD
    players available for linux. It didnt take long for someone to break
    CSS - as soon as that happened the way was opened for DVD players and
    DVD rippers.

    The situation now is amlost exactly the same. The media is HD-DVD and
    Bluray. The content protection system is AACS which is somewhat
    superior to CSS. But it is still the same. It will be broken and
    players and rippers will appear. Players without all of this
    encryption of video streams and dropping quality if your hardware isnt
    new enough.
    David Goodwin, Jan 14, 2007
    #15
  16. In message <45aa15b3$>, Craig Whitmore wrote:

    >
    > "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in message
    > news:eocvj5$1fd$...
    >> In message <>, Phil wrote:
    >>
    >>> David Goodwin wrote, On 14/01/07 3.53 p:
    >>>
    >>>> I think this DRM crap in Windows NT 6 is great. It just provides
    >>>> another reason for people to switch to Linux. Its just one more
    >>>> advantage that Linux has over windows now. And Microsoft was kind
    >>>> enough to pay all of the development costs too.
    >>>
    >>> How is it an advantage not to at least support DRM? If [your] customers
    >>> want to play new HD content...

    >>
    >> Wrong assumption. Your assumption is really "If your customers want to
    >> put up with the hoops they will have to jump through and the bullshit as
    >> thick as treacle that they will have to wade through to play new HD
    >> content...".

    >
    > How are you going to stop/make it hard for people to make a 100% copy of
    > your work?


    You can't.

    > hoops? If your OS/Hardware supports DRM then the encrypted stuff will just
    > work.


    Have a look at this long list of Vista bugs reported by a columnist:
    <http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ou/?p=402>. Notice how most of them are
    media-related? That's consistent with Peter Gutmann's analysis that
    integration of DRM restrictions right through every level of the OS in
    Vista will lead to never-ending problems.

    In other words, DRM doesn't "just work".
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Jan 15, 2007
    #16
  17. On Mon, 15 Jan 2007 00:24:32 +1300, Craig Whitmore wrote:

    > hoops? If your OS/Hardware supports DRM then the encrypted stuff will just
    > work. If not then it will not work. If you don't accept you have to use
    > something which supports it then no one is forcing you to watch it. Do you
    > want to Watch protected movies without accepting the T&C of actually
    > watching it?


    If you buy a film in HD-DVD format you should still be able to view that
    film using ANY HD-DVD player that is capable of decrypting the data on the
    DVD. All you need to do that is the key. Those keys have already been
    found.

    If that player does not degrade the content due to the OS not turning on
    the degrading/constricting circutry then great.

    If your OS has not implemented the ability to turn on that constricting
    circutry then even better!

    I expect that Linux will not implement that nasty user-unfriendly hack and
    thus HD-DVD playback will work happily on all hardware with the capacity
    to display at the resolution of HD-DVD content.


    --
    Dianthus Mimulus

    Microsoft's business practises exposed in court:
    http://www.maxframe.com/DR/Info/fullstory/dsprgmnt.html#_Toc447960918
    Dianthus Mimulus, Jan 15, 2007
    #17
  18. On Mon, 15 Jan 2007 11:30:02 +1300, Fred Dagg wrote:

    > I'm not a huge fan of the DRM, but at least it allows high definition
    > high quality video to be played back.


    You fail to understand that once the decoder has the key for that disc
    then the full content of that disc will be accessable and decodable and
    playable. The *full* content.


    --
    Dianthus Mimulus

    Microsoft's business practises exposed in court:
    http://www.maxframe.com/DR/Info/fullstory/dsprgmnt.html#_Toc447960918
    Dianthus Mimulus, Jan 15, 2007
    #18
  19. On Mon, 15 Jan 2007 11:30:02 +1300, Fred Dagg wrote:

    > It's not that the hardware is "degrading" anything. There are two
    > streams of video - the HD content, which is highly encrypted, and the
    > standard content. The standard content is still DVD quality, so it's
    > not entirely shite.


    What you're saying here is completely contrary to what Micro$oft has
    published. Please read the document at the following URL, from which I
    have quoted below.

    http://download.microsoft.com/download/5/D/6/5D6EAF2B-7DDF-476B-93DC-7CF0072878E6/output_protect.doc

    Quote:
    In Windows Vista, the Protected Environment provides process isolation and
    continually monitors what kernel-mode software is loaded. If a rogue
    component is detected, then Windows Vista will stop playing high-level
    premium content, rather than risk it being stolen.
    Endquote

    Quote:
    The OPM OTA routes requests for resolution constrictions to the Enhanced
    Video Renderer (EVR) and routes all other output protection requests to
    the OPM component.
    Endquote

    Quote:
    In contrast, DVI without HDCP is definitely not liked by content owners,
    because it provides a pristine digital interface that can be captured
    cleanly. When playing premium content such as HD-DVD and Blu-Ray DVD,
    PVP-OPM will be required to turn off or constrict the quality of
    unprotected DVI. As a result, a regular DVI monitor will either get
    slightly fuzzy or go black, with a polite message explaining that it
    doesn’t meet security requirements.
    Endquote

    Quote:
    Analog YPbPr component was the CE industry’s first attempt at an interface
    to HD displays. However, apart from CGMS-A signaling, it doesn’t provide
    any protection mechanism. PVP-OPM will be required to turn off or
    constrict it for premium content such as HD-DVD or Blu-Ray DVD.
    Endquote

    Quote:
    Constriction is the process of downscaling the picture to the required
    resolution—for example, 520K pixels—and then scaling it back up to the
    original resolution. The result is a picture with an unchanged scanning
    raster, but it is now a bit fuzzy, because the information content of the
    picture has been reduced to degrade the picture. Constriction is done by
    putting a downscaler and an upscaler in series in the content path.

    The content owner’s constriction requirement is likely to be specified in
    terms of total number of pixels allowed to pass through the constrictor.
    For example, rather than specifying 840x630, the content owner will
    specify a maximum of 520K pixels. This way of specifying allows more
    flexibility when handling widescreen content. The “total number of pixelsâ€
    limit is translated into a specific resolution that the graphics chip is
    required to constrict to.
    Endquote


    --
    Dianthus Mimulus

    Microsoft's business practises exposed in court:
    http://www.maxframe.com/DR/Info/fullstory/dsprgmnt.html#_Toc447960918
    Dianthus Mimulus, Jan 15, 2007
    #19
  20. Dianthus Mimulus

    Murray Symon Guest

    On Mon, 15 Jan 2007 18:51:07 +1300, Dianthus Mimulus wrote:

    > On Mon, 15 Jan 2007 11:30:02 +1300, Fred Dagg wrote:
    >
    >> I'm not a huge fan of the DRM, but at least it allows high definition
    >> high quality video to be played back.

    >
    > You fail to understand that once the decoder has the key for that disc
    > then the full content of that disc will be accessable and decodable and
    > playable. The *full* content.



    This is not CSS. It is not that simple. CSS was simple and weak. With
    AACS there are multiple keys, e.g. separate ones for players/decoders as
    well as individual titles. Invidual keys can be revoked. It is quite
    possible that one movie title may be distributed with many keys. Once a
    player (e.g. software player) is compromised the key for that player can
    be revoked.

    The idea behind the new generation of DRM is to have the hardware modified
    sufficiently so that a full "secure channel" can be established from
    source media to replay device.

    For the AACS to be truly "cracked" you would probably need Internet
    servers providing a continual supply of new keys for both the titles and
    the drives to keep working. Either that or once you "crack" a title,
    encapsulate it forever with its player in its own virtual machine image.

    I don't think you will see a simple and universal solution to AACS as
    there was with CSS.

    Murray.
    Murray Symon, Jan 15, 2007
    #20
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