A must read for Windows users

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by Alister F, May 24, 2004.

  1. Alister F

    Alister F Guest

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  2. Alister F

    frederick Guest

    frederick, May 24, 2004
    #2
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  3. Alister F

    IRO Guest

    IRO, May 24, 2004
    #3
  4. Alister F

    IRO Guest

    In article <>,
    "frederick" <> wrote:

    > "Alister F" <> wrote in message
    > news:40b260de$...
    > > http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/05/21/1085120110704.html
    > >

    > When you read that article, it becomes clear why MS might encounter
    > difficulty
    > in making their software idiot-proof. What a loser.


    I dunno, he seemed reasonably savvy to me. Some of the Wintel users I
    get to assist are hard-pressed to reconnect the mouse if it's
    accidentally unplugged. Earlier this year I found one who, after owning
    a Dell box for over six months, was still retyping documents from
    scratch. Hadn't figured out how to Save.

    A huge proportion of computer users do so on a strict need-to-know basis.

    (They have to be pretty naive to ask me to help with a Wintel box ;^)

    ------
    ~IRO
    My ambition in Life is to build something that will
    REALLY last....at least until I've finished building it.
     
    IRO, May 24, 2004
    #4
  5. Alister F

    frederick Guest

    "IRO" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > In article <>,
    > "frederick" <> wrote:
    >
    > > "Alister F" <> wrote in message
    > > news:40b260de$...
    > > > http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/05/21/1085120110704.html
    > > >

    > > When you read that article, it becomes clear why MS might encounter
    > > difficulty
    > > in making their software idiot-proof. What a loser.

    >
    > I dunno, he seemed reasonably savvy to me.


    I don't know really - savvy enought to want to fiddle with things like VMware
    but apparently surprised that he struck a problem? And it is MS's fault that he
    had problems running a Linux VM on his W2000 laptop? Reality check time - would
    he really expect MS to offer support for that?
    And for all his savvyness, he forgot to firewall his machine, and got Blaster,
    but wasn't savvy enough to kill it before patching his machine.
    "According to the reports I have read SP2 will enable the XP firewall by
    default, and will also include many nifty features to protect the system. It is
    pretty obvious that such updates cannot work in the presence of the Windows
    Registry"
    WTF is he talking about? It appears that he used some crap software to "clean"
    his registry, and it's MS's fault that it stuffed things big time? So he now
    hates the registry?

    >
    >Some of the Wintel users I
    > get to assist are hard-pressed to reconnect the mouse if it's
    > accidentally unplugged. Earlier this year I found one who, after owning
    > a Dell box for over six months, was still retyping documents from
    > scratch. Hadn't figured out how to Save.
    >

    That is not uncommon. The concepts of basic file management are way beyond a
    lot of users. Explaining to them by using the analogy of an actual piece of
    paper, a cardboard folder, and a filing cabinet often helps them grasp the
    concept. Unfortunately IMO the non logical "my computer" MS way of doing things
    can make the whole thing confusing again once they have grasped the basics but
    are going to the next stage. I thought Linux was better - but now I have
    Xandros imitating the non-logical MS way.
    >
    > A huge proportion of computer users do so on a strict need-to-know basis.
    >
    > (They have to be pretty naive to ask me to help with a Wintel box ;^)
    >
    > ------
    > ~IRO
    > My ambition in Life is to build something that will
    > REALLY last....at least until I've finished building it.
     
    frederick, May 25, 2004
    #5
  6. Alister F

    Brendan Guest

    On Tue, 25 May 2004 12:10:51 +1200, frederick wrote:

    > So he now
    > hates the registry?


    The registry is worth hating. It's a stupid idea implemented poorly.

    --

    .... Brendan

    "The closing years of life are like the end of a masquerade party when the masks are dropped." -- Arthur Schopenhauer

    Note: All comments are copyright 25/05/2004 1:04:45 p.m., and are opinion only where not otherwise stated, and always "to the best of my recollection". www.computerman.orcon.net.nz.
     
    Brendan, May 25, 2004
    #6
  7. Nathan Mercer, May 25, 2004
    #7
  8. Dave - Dave.net.nz, May 25, 2004
    #8
  9. Alister F

    frederick Guest

    "Dave - Dave.net.nz" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Alister F wrote:
    > > http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/05/21/1085120110704.html

    >
    > for someone who writes like he is "on to it" he is a bit of a dumbarse
    > not to copy the updates from his machine prior to formatting.


    I am amazed that the SMH published this. In a city of over 4 million they are
    unable to get an editor for their technology /computing section that can
    recognize a load of crock when they see it?
     
    frederick, May 25, 2004
    #9
  10. Alister F

    Enkidu Guest

    Enkidu, May 25, 2004
    #10
  11. Alister F

    Enkidu Guest

    On Tue, 25 May 2004 14:23:46 +1200, Brendan
    <> wrote:

    >On Tue, 25 May 2004 12:10:51 +1200, frederick wrote:
    >
    >> So he now
    >> hates the registry?

    >
    >The registry is worth hating. It's a stupid idea implemented poorly.
    >

    Really? It's just a database of configuration information. A bit like
    /etcactually.

    Cheers,

    Cliff
     
    Enkidu, May 25, 2004
    #11
  12. Alister F

    Tim Tam Guest

    But everything in /etc is straight forward to edit from the command line
    with a text editor.

    Tim


    Enkidu wrote:
    > On Tue, 25 May 2004 14:23:46 +1200, Brendan
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>On Tue, 25 May 2004 12:10:51 +1200, frederick wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>So he now
    >>>hates the registry?

    >>
    >>The registry is worth hating. It's a stupid idea implemented poorly.
    >>

    >
    > Really? It's just a database of configuration information. A bit like
    > /etcactually.
    >
    > Cheers,
    >
    > Cliff
     
    Tim Tam, May 25, 2004
    #12
  13. Alister F

    Mr Scebe Guest

    "IRO" <> wrote in message
    news:...

    > I dunno, he seemed reasonably savvy to me. Some of the Wintel users I
    > get to assist are hard-pressed to reconnect the mouse if it's
    > accidentally unplugged.


    Na, the guy's a goose. It's really easy to spot Windows lamers - whenever
    anything goes wrong their first bit of advise is "reinstall the OS".

    --
    Mr Scebe
    Losers always whine about their 'best'.
    Winners go home and **** the prom queen".
    ~Sean Connery in "The Rock"
     
    Mr Scebe, May 25, 2004
    #13
  14. Alister F

    Mr Scebe Guest

    "Brendan" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Tue, 25 May 2004 12:10:51 +1200, frederick wrote:
    >
    > > So he now
    > > hates the registry?

    >
    > The registry is worth hating. It's a stupid idea implemented poorly.


    Turn it up, A'vatart. Surely only because you haven't got a fucking clue how
    to use it.

    --
    Mr Scebe
    "Personally i think you're a fucking idiot"
    ~Sean Connery in "The Rock"
     
    Mr Scebe, May 25, 2004
    #14
  15. Alister F

    Brendan Guest

    On Tue, 25 May 2004 19:25:23 +1200, Enkidu wrote:

    >>The registry is worth hating. It's a stupid idea implemented poorly.
    >>

    > Really? It's just a database of configuration information. A bit like
    > /etc actually.


    I think we'd be better off with lots of little config files that are loaded
    and interpreted only when needed.

    Programs could be arranged in a certain directory structure so the OS would
    know where to look for programs to handle certain things.

    For example, to load a .jpg file it might run the exe/script in
    user-space\applications\media\bitmaps\jpeg.

    Now what it actually does is runs a program in applications, which
    determines it's a media file and then runs the program in media, which
    determines it's a bitmap and then loads the jpg handler. In practice you'd
    probably just have a do-them-all program in \bitmaps. Many of these basic
    apps would come as part of the OS of course, but would be easily
    replaceable by simple copy/paste by the user. Modular.

    Obviously, you'd be running a large cache. Programs that are used a lot -
    like the file type identifier for example - would be cached all the time
    and therefore run from ram. In User Space. Those that are not are not
    loaded and not a burden.

    Furthermore, if a program was faulty or suspected as such, a simple copy
    and replace from backup would fix the problem. You could trace it back up
    the tree structure using a process of elimination. Upgrading the entire
    media handling of the OS would be as simply as copying the new setup from
    CD over the top of the old.

    In total, it might look like this:

    \system\os-boot\kernal\
    \system\os-boot\device-drivers\
    \system\user-space\applications\
    \system\user-space\user-data\

    E.g. you use the filesystem AS the database. The actual filesystem would
    know how to span those directories over multiple physical drives so if you
    ran out of room, you add another drive and it automatically formats it and
    knows how to use it - because using it means simply extending the above
    directory structure onto it as necessary in a transparent manner. If you
    could not add more drives, it's time to look at RAID or look at trimming
    that tree down a bit by moving it to \system\user-space\user-data\CDRW.
    (it's in user-space because it's removable and therefore not available ALL
    the time).

    How would applications know what to load to handle certain user-level files
    ? Well, they'd understand the same directory structure.

    Installation ? A bootable image on CD of a stripped down version of the
    above OS is loaded - it has just enough brains to know how to format the HD
    and copy the main OS to it from a ZIP file (or other OPEN archive format).
    Custom OS installs (schools, corporations, etc) could be made by simply
    replacing that zip file.

    I realise this, all or part, is exactly the way some other os's operate
    already. Good on them - I'd like windows to do it too. I don't think it'll
    happen though - FAR too much legacy software. But I do think they could run
    the two systems in parallel, and perhaps encourage developer migration by
    retarding improvements to the old system.

    I also understand something like this may be available in longhorn.

    Comments please (this is hardly a fully fleshed out idea)

    --

    .... Brendan

    "The saving of our world from pending doom will come not from the
    action of a conforming majority but from the creative maladjustment of
    a dedicated minority."
    -- Martin Luther King, Jr.

    Note: All comments are copyright 25/05/2004 11:38:32 p.m., and are opinion only where not otherwise stated, and always "to the best of my recollection". www.computerman.orcon.net.nz.
     
    Brendan, May 25, 2004
    #15
  16. Alister F

    Nil Einne Guest

    Alister F <> wrote in message news:<40b260de$>...
    > http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/05/21/1085120110704.html


    Why didn't he install a firewall before he connected to the internet?
    If he knew his computer was vunerable, he should have. Or he could
    have just 'upgraded' to Windows XP and used the built in firewall, at
    least until he installed all the updates. He lives in Pakistan, so I
    assume it can't be that hard to 'upgrade'
     
    Nil Einne, May 25, 2004
    #16
  17. Alister F

    John Guest

    John, May 25, 2004
    #17
  18. In article <>, "frederick" <> was seen to type:
    >"Brendan" <> wrote in message
    >news:1b9lli9wzeow6$...
    >> On Tue, 25 May 2004 19:25:23 +1200, Enkidu wrote:


    >> >>The registry is worth hating. It's a stupid idea implemented poorly.
    >> >>
    >> > Really? It's just a database of configuration information. A bit like
    >> > /etc actually.

    >>
    >> I think we'd be better off with lots of little config files that are loaded
    >> and interpreted only when needed.
    >>

    >Remember "ini files"?


    Yep. Thought they were a terrific way of dealing with config info.
    They usually worked .. and you could edit them.

    >Most applications that write to the registry could write the same to an ini
    >file. The windows and windows/system folders used to get clagged up with ini
    >files, and problems with file names etc could cause big problems.
    > That is
    >overcome if the ini file is in the same directory as the main executable.
    >There is no reason why it couldn't be in most cases.


    Yep. Sane programs kept their ini files in their home directory.
    Putting it in the windows directory effectively hid it in clutter.

    > The only instances that I
    >can think about that might cause problems are where several related
    > applications
    >require access to the same configuration data, so finding the path to the ini
    >file becomes an issue. That is the exception rather than the rule.


    Then the ini file could say where the ini file was ? :)
    Yep. I guess they were trying to solve the problem of deleting files
    that were needed by more than one program (some of the .dll s could be
    used by lots of things). Linux 'dependencies' I guess. It seems to me
    that the solving of that problem created more ... and often harder to
    fix problems.

    >Many programs clag up the registry - and it annoys the hell out of me when
    >registry data is left behind when the program is uninstalled. Most installer
    >packaging software includes the option of writing registry keys when a program
    >is installed - and a simple check box option to configure the uninstaller to
    >remove the registry key. Few seem to be able to achieve this - or just don't
    >care.


    It's probably the latter :)


    Bruce


    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to
    think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone´s fault.
    If it was Us, what did that make Me ? After all, I´m one of Us. I must be.
    I´ve certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No-one ever thinks
    of themselves as one of Them. We´re always one of Us. It´s Them that do
    the bad things. <=> Terry Pratchett. Jingo.

    Caution === followups may have been changed to relevant groups
    (if there weere any)
     
    Bruce Sinclair, May 25, 2004
    #18
  19. Alister F

    frederick Guest

    "Brendan" <> wrote in message
    news:1b9lli9wzeow6$...
    > On Tue, 25 May 2004 19:25:23 +1200, Enkidu wrote:
    >
    > >>The registry is worth hating. It's a stupid idea implemented poorly.
    > >>

    > > Really? It's just a database of configuration information. A bit like
    > > /etc actually.

    >
    > I think we'd be better off with lots of little config files that are loaded
    > and interpreted only when needed.
    >

    Remember "ini files"?
    Most applications that write to the registry could write the same to an ini
    file. The windows and windows/system folders used to get clagged up with ini
    files, and problems with file names etc could cause big problems. That is
    overcome if the ini file is in the same directory as the main executable.
    There is no reason why it couldn't be in most cases. The only instances that I
    can think about that might cause problems are where several related applications
    require access to the same configuration data, so finding the path to the ini
    file becomes an issue. That is the exception rather than the rule.

    Many programs clag up the registry - and it annoys the hell out of me when
    registry data is left behind when the program is uninstalled. Most installer
    packaging software includes the option of writing registry keys when a program
    is installed - and a simple check box option to configure the uninstaller to
    remove the registry key. Few seem to be able to achieve this - or just don't
    care.
     
    frederick, May 25, 2004
    #19
  20. Bruce Sinclair wrote:
    >>>I think we'd be better off with lots of little config files that are loaded
    >>>and interpreted only when needed.

    >>Remember "ini files"?


    > Yep. Thought they were a terrific way of dealing with config info.
    > They usually worked .. and you could edit them.


    heh, just like the registry.

    > Yep. Sane programs kept their ini files in their home directory.
    > Putting it in the windows directory effectively hid it in clutter.


    Putting it in the clutter is a good way of stopping people from
    tinkering when they shouldn't be.

    >>The only instances that I
    >>can think about that might cause problems are where several related
    >>applications
    >>require access to the same configuration data, so finding the path to the ini
    >>file becomes an issue.


    > Then the ini file could say where the ini file was ? :)


    well, an ini file generated during the install that detects where the
    info is... shouldn't be too hard to figure out.

    >>Few seem to be able to achieve this - or just don't
    >>care.


    > It's probably the latter :)


    indeed, why support a non-customer...
    retorical question, I know why you should.
     
    Dave - Dave.net.nz, May 26, 2004
    #20
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