4th RFD: rec.photo.digital reorganization

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Thad, Sep 8, 2004.

  1. Thad

    Thad Guest

    REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)
    unmoderated group rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
    unmoderated group rec.photo.digital.zlr
    unmoderated group rec.photo.digital.point+shoot
    unmoderated group rec.photo.digital.rangefinder

    This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the reorganization of
    the digital photography groups in the rec.photo.digital hierarchy. This
    is not a Call for Votes (CFV); you cannot vote at this time. Procedural
    details are below.

    CHANGES:

    1. Three additional newsgroups have been added to this proposal
    2. Change of name from rec.photo.digital.slr to
    rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
    3. Digital rangefinders moved from digital SLR group to their own
    newsgroup, rec.photo.digital.rangefinder

    The creation of any or all of these proposed newgroups would NOT
    require the removal of rec.photo.digital - RPD would continue to
    stay alive as a functioning newsgroup.

    Newsgroup lines:
    rec.photo.digital.point+shoot Point-and-shoot digital cameras.
    rec.photo.digital.rangefinder Digital rangefinder camera systems.
    rec.photo.digital.slr-systems Digital SLR (single lens reflex) camera systems.
    rec.photo.digital.zlr Digital cameras with fixed zoom lenses & manual controls.

    RATIONALE: all groups

    The growth of digital photography has caused the only Big-8 digital
    photography newsgroup (rec.photo.digital) to become overwhelmed with an
    enormous volume of posts. RPD was created to discuss all general
    aspects of digital photography - including cameras, scanners, printers,
    software, and other related topics. More and more people are using
    digital cameras, and learning about photography. The modern digital
    camera has evolved into a family of different flavors. Different tools
    have different needs. Four new groups are proposed to offer digital
    photographers technology-specific forums which allow users to
    concentrate on what best meets their current needs.

    RATIONALE: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems

    The proposed newsgroup should be created because it will provide an open
    forum for the discussion of digital SLR (single lens reflex) camera
    systems, separate from film SLR cameras and non-SLR digital cameras.
    Digital SLR photography is growing at an amazing rate. It is time to
    create a Big-8 newsgroup for digital SLR enthusiasts. Rec.photo.digital
    was created before the digital photography revolution peaked. At that
    time, digital SLR camera systems were not easily obtainable by the
    average person, due to high cost and limited availability. Due to
    advances in the past year alone by some of the major camera
    manufacturers, a person can find digital SLR camera equipment for sale
    at almost every shopping mall, strip mall, or electronics store on
    earth, at very reasonable prices.

    RATIONALE: rec.photo.digital.zlr

    The proposed newsgroup should be created because it will provide an open
    forum for the discussion of high-end digital cameras with zoom lenses
    and full manual controls, accessories for those cameras, and using those
    cameras, separate from digital SLR cameras, digital rangefinders and
    digital point-and-shoot cameras. These cameras are frequently referred
    to as digital ZLR (zoom lens reflex) cameras or SLR-like digital
    cameras, and typically have an SLR-like appearance due to the bulk of
    the lens rather than the relatively more compact shape of most
    point-and-shoot cameras. The digital ZLR is emerging as the camera of
    choice for many people that have graduated from basic point-and-shoot
    digital cameras, but don't need the added bulk and weight of a
    comparably equipped digital SLR.

    RATIONALE: rec.photo.digital.point+shoot

    The proposed newsgroup should be created because it will provide an open
    forum for the discussion of point-and-shoot digital cameras, accessories
    for those cameras, and using those cameras, separate from digital SLR,
    digital ZLR, and digital rangefinder cameras. Point-and-shoot digicams
    are more popular then ever. Image quality from these generally compact
    cameras is beginning to rival that of their larger digital SLR and
    digital ZLR cousins. It makes sense to create a new newsgroup for the
    largest segment of the digital camera population: the point-and-shoot
    digicams.

    RATIONALE: rec.photo.digital.rangefinder

    The proposed newsgroup should be created because it will provide an open
    forum for the discussion of digital rangefinder cameras, lenses and
    accessories for those cameras, and using those cameras, separate from
    digital SLR, digital ZLR, and digital point-and shoot cameras. Digital
    rangefinders are currently in development by camera manufacturers such
    as Leica, Voigtlander, Contax, and Epson. Upon availability, these
    digital bodies will offer a viable digital solution for owners of Leica,
    Zeiss, Voigtlander and other quality lenses for rangefinders. There is
    already a good level of enthusiasm and discussion surrounding this
    unique category of digital cameras.

    CHARTER: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems

    This newsgroup, rec.photo.digital.slr-systems, is an open forum for the
    discussion of digital SLR (single lens reflex) camera systems.

    These systems consist of:

    -Digital SLR (DSLR) camera bodies with mounts for detachable lenses
    -Lenses for those cameras

    Additional On-Topic Discussion:

    -Discussion of any relevant accessories for those camera systems,
    including but not limited to: external flash units, memory cards,
    microdrives, lens filters/hoods, camera bags/cases, DSLR
    camera/lens/accessory maintenance, tripods and monopods
    -Photography techniques, as long as the discussion remains within the
    context of DSLR photography
    -Image post-processing, as long as the discussion remains within the
    context of DSLR photography
    -Posting links to personal photo galleries or images, as long as the
    discussion remains within the context of DSLR photography
    -Discussion of digital backs for film SLR bodies

    What Is Considered Off-Topic:

    -Discussion of pure film cameras
    -Discussion of digital point-and-shoot, ZLR, rangefinder, or any other
    non-SLR digital cameras
    -Discussion of any cameras with non-detachable lenses
    -Discussion of digital rangefinders
    -Discussion of scanners
    -Discussion of printers
    -Posting links to personal photo galleries or images, not in the context
    of DSLR photography

    Posting off-topic should be kept to a minimum. All off-topic posts
    should be prefixed with [OT] or another easily-identifiable prefix in
    the subject line. If a segment of any on-topic thread ever becomes
    clearly off-topic, it is the duty of those individuals posting to change
    the subject line to reflect the off-topic change.

    Debating the pros and cons of digital photography vs. film photography
    is off-topic. Please be polite and try to not steer any conversations in
    that direction. In the event that any segment of any on-topic thread
    ever becomes clearly off-topic by debating the pros and cons of digital
    photography vs. film photography, it is the duty of those individuals
    posting to change the subject line to reflect the off-topic change.

    What Is Considered Inappropriate:

    - Crossposting to any other newsgroup except where the post is of direct
    relevance to each group in the crosspost

    What Is Not Permitted:

    -Posts from mail2news gateways and/or anonymous remailers
    -Flame wars (comparisons between different digital SLR brands or systems
    are permitted as long as they do not degenerate into personal flames)
    -Signatures with more than 4 lines
    -Exchange and/or discussion of illegal software
    -Personal attacks
    -Binary postings (i.e. non text postings) other than PGP and small
    binary signatures
    -Commercial advertisements:

    This newsgroup explicitly prohibits the posting of advertisements of any
    kind, whether personal, private or commercial, as well as all other
    promotional material, whether or not it is in any way related to
    photography.

    Auction announcements (Ebay.com and others) are prohibited.

    Posting links to commercial websites with the sole intention of
    promoting those sites is not permitted; links to commercial websites may
    be posted in the context of answering a specific question.

    All postings made to this group should conform to existing Usenet
    guidelines (see news.announce.newusers for guideline documents).

    When posting on rec.photo.digital.slr-systems, please use standard
    Usenet netiquette. Treat other posters with courtesy and follow standard
    conventions when replying to posts. Please trim the posts you reply to,
    retaining only the significant portions in your follow up. Preserve
    attributions (the bits that specify who wrote what in each post) and
    limit your signature to 4 lines or less. To ensure readability, do not
    use HTML in your posts and limit your line lengths to the Usenet
    standard of 80 characters or less.

    END CHARTER.

    CHARTER: rec.photo.digital.zlr

    This newsgroup, rec.photo.digital.zlr, is an open forum for the
    discussion of high-end digital cameras with fixed zoom lenses and full
    manual controls, and using those cameras. These cameras are frequently
    referred to as digital ZLR (zoom lens reflex) cameras or SLR-like
    digital cameras, and typically have an SLR-like appearance due to the
    bulk of the lens rather than the relatively more compact shape of most
    point-and-shoot digital cameras.

    Additional On-Topic Discussion:

    -Any relevant accessories for digital ZLR cameras, such as: external
    flash units,
    add-on lens elements, memory cards, microdrives, lens filters/hoods,
    camera
    bags/cases, digital ZLR maintenance, tripods and monopods.
    -Photography techniques, as long as the discussion remains within the
    context of digital ZLR photography
    -Image post-processing, as long as the discussion remains within the
    context of digital ZLR photography
    -Posting links to personal photo galleries or images, as long as the
    discussion remains within the context of digital ZLR photography.

    What Is Considered Off-Topic:

    -Discussion of "point and shoot" digital cameras with no manual controls
    -Discussion of any film cameras
    -Discussion of cameras with mounts for detachable lenses
    -Discussion of scanners
    -Discussion of printers
    -Posting links to personal photo galleries or images, not in the context
    of
    digital ZLR photography

    Posting off-topic should be kept to a minimum. All off-topic posts
    should
    be prefixed with [OT] or another easily-identifiable prefix in the
    subject
    line. If a segment of any on-topic thread ever becomes clearly
    off-topic,
    it is the duty of those individuals posting to change the subject line
    to
    reflect the off-topic change.

    Debating the pros and cons of digital photography vs. film photography
    is
    off-topic. Please be polite and try to not steer any conversations in
    that
    direction. In the event that any segment of any on-topic thread ever
    becomes clearly off-topic by debating the pros and cons of digital
    photography vs. film photography, it is the duty of those individuals
    posting to change the subject line to reflect the off-topic change.

    What Is Considered Inappropriate:

    - Crossposting to any other newsgroup except where the post is of direct
    relevance to each group in the crosspost

    What Is Not Permitted:

    -Posts from mail2news gateways and/or anonymous remailers
    -Flame wars (comparisons between different digital camera brands or
    models
    are permitted as long as they do not degenerate into personal flames)
    -Signatures with more than 4 lines
    -Exchange and/or discussion of illegal software
    -Personal attacks
    -Binary postings (i.e. non text postings) other than PGP and small
    binary
    signatures
    -Commercial advertisements:

    This newsgroup explicitly prohibits the posting of advertisements of any
    kind, whether personal, private or commercial, as well as all other
    promotional material, whether or not it is in any way related to
    photography.

    Auction announcements (Ebay.com and others) are prohibited.

    Posting links to commercial websites with the sole intention of
    promoting
    those sites is not permitted; links to commercial websites may be posted
    in
    the context of answering a specific question.

    All postings made to this group should conform to existing Usenet
    guidelines (see news.announce.newusers for guideline documents).

    When posting on rec.photo.digital.zlr, please use standard Usenet
    netiquette. Treat other posters with courtesy and follow standard
    conventions when replying to posts. Please trim the posts you reply to,
    retaining only the significant portions in your follow up. Preserve
    attributions (the bits that specify who wrote what in each post) and
    limit
    your signature to 4 lines or less. To ensure readability, do not use
    HTML
    in your posts and limit your line lengths to the Usenet standard of 80
    characters or less.

    END CHARTER.

    CHARTER: rec.photo.digital.point+shoot

    This newsgroup, rec.photo.digital.point+shoot, is an open forum for the
    discussion of point-and-shoot digital cameras, and using those cameras.

    Additional On-Topic Discussion:

    -Any relevant accessories for point-and-shoot digital cameras, such as:
    add-on lens elements, memory cards, microdrives, camera bags/cases, and
    camera maintenance.
    -Photography techniques, as long as the discussion remains within the
    context of point-and-shoot digital photography
    -Image post-processing, as long as the discussion remains within the
    context of point-and-shoot digital photography
    -Posting links to personal photo galleries or images, as long as the
    discussion remains within the context of point-and-shoot digital
    photography

    What Is Considered Off-Topic:

    -Discussion of digital SLR, ZLR, rangefinder, or other digital cameras
    with manual controls
    -Discussion of any film cameras
    -Discussion of scanners
    -Discussion of printers
    -Posting links to personal photo galleries or images, not in the context
    of
    point-and-shoot digital photography

    Posting off-topic should be kept to a minimum. All off-topic posts
    should be prefixed with [OT] or another easily-identifiable prefix in
    the subject line. If a segment of any on topic thread ever becomes
    clearly off-topic, it is the duty of those individuals posting to change
    the subject line to reflect the off-topic change.

    Debating the pros and cons of digital photography vs. film photography
    is off-topic. Please be polite and try to not steer any conversations in
    that direction. In the event that any segment of any on-topic thread
    ever becomes clearly off-topic by debating the pros and cons of digital
    photography vs. film photography, it is the duty of those individuals
    posting to change the subject line to reflect the off-topic change.

    What Is Considered Inappropriate:

    - Crossposting to any other newsgroup except where the post is of direct
    relevance to each group in the crosspost

    What Is Not Permitted:

    -Posts from mail2news gateways and/or anonymous remailers
    -Flame wars (comparisons between different digital camera brands or
    models are permitted as long as they do not degenerate into personal
    flames)
    -Signatures with more than 4 lines
    -Exchange and/or discussion of illegal software
    -Personal attacks
    -Binary postings (i.e. non text postings) other than PGP and small
    binary signatures
    -Commercial advertisements:

    This newsgroup explicitly prohibits the posting of advertisements of any
    kind, whether personal, private or commercial, as well as all other
    promotional material, whether or not it is in any way related to
    photography.

    Auction announcements (Ebay.com and others) are prohibited.

    Posting links to commercial websites with the sole intention of
    promoting those sites is not permitted; links to commercial websites may
    be posted in the context of answering a specific question.

    All postings made to this group should conform to existing Usenet
    guidelines (see news.announce.newusers for guideline documents).

    When posting on rec.photo.digital.point+shoot, please use standard
    Usenet netiquette. Treat other posters with courtesy and follow standard
    conventions when replying to posts. Please trim the posts you reply to,
    retaining only the significant portions in your follow up. Preserve
    attributions (the bits that specify who wrote what in each post) and
    limit your signature to 4 lines or less. To ensure readability, do not
    use HTML in your posts and limit your line lengths to the Usenet
    standard of 80 characters or less.

    END CHARTER.

    CHARTER: rec.photo.digital.rangefinder

    This newsgroup, rec.photo.digital.rangefinder, is an open forum for the
    discussion of digital rangefinder camera systems.

    These systems consist of:

    -Digital rangefinder camera bodies with mounts for detachable lenses
    -Lenses for those cameras
    -Any relevant accessories for those camera systems, including but not
    limited to: external flash units, memory cards, microdrives, lens
    filters/hoods, camera bags/cases, digital rangefinder
    camera/lens/accessory maintenance, tripods and monopods.

    Additional On-Topic Discussion:

    -Photography techniques, as long as the discussion remains within the
    context of digital rangefinder photography
    -Image post-processing, as long as the discussion remains within the
    context of digital rangefinder photography
    -Posting links to personal photo galleries or images, as long as the
    discussion remains within the context of digital rangefinder photography
    -Discussion of digital backs for film rangefinder bodies

    What Is Considered Off-Topic:

    -Discussion of pure film cameras
    -Discussion of digital point-and-shoot, ZLR, SLR, or any other
    non-rangefinder digital cameras
    -Discussion of any cameras with non-detachable lenses
    -Discussion of scanners
    -Discussion of printers
    -Posting links to personal photo galleries or images, not in the context
    of digital rangefinder photography

    Posting off-topic should be kept to a minimum. All off-topic posts
    should be prefixed with [OT] or another easily-identifiable prefix in
    the subject line. If a segment of any on-topic thread ever becomes
    clearly off-topic, it is the duty of those individuals posting to change
    the subject line to reflect the off-topic change.

    Debating the pros and cons of digital photography vs. film photography
    is off-topic. Please be polite and try to not steer any conversations in
    that direction. In the event that any segment of any on-topic thread
    ever becomes clearly off-topic by debating the pros and cons of digital
    photography vs. film photography, it is the duty of those individuals
    posting to change the subject line to reflect the off-topic change.

    What Is Considered Inappropriate:

    - Crossposting to any other newsgroup except where the post is of direct
    relevance to each group in the crosspost

    What Is Not Permitted:

    -Posts from mail2news gateways and/or anonymous remailers
    -Flame wars (comparisons between different digital SLR brands or systems
    are permitted as long as they do not degenerate into personal flames)
    -Signatures with more than 4 lines
    -Exchange and/or discussion of illegal software
    -Personal attacks
    -Binary postings (i.e. non text postings) other than PGP and small
    binary signatures
    -Commercial advertisements:

    This newsgroup explicitly prohibits the posting of advertisements of any
    kind, whether personal, private or commercial, as well as all other
    promotional material, whether or not it is in any way related to
    photography.

    Auction announcements (Ebay.com and others) are prohibited.

    Posting links to commercial websites with the sole intention of
    promoting those sites is not permitted; links to commercial websites may
    be posted in the context of answering a specific question.

    All postings made to this group should conform to existing Usenet
    guidelines (see news.announce.newusers for guideline documents).

    When posting on rec.photo.digital.slr, please use standard Usenet
    netiquette. Treat other posters with courtesy and follow standard
    conventions when replying to posts. Please trim the posts you reply to,
    retaining only the significant portions in your follow up. Preserve
    attributions (the bits that specify who wrote what in each post) and
    limit your signature to 4 lines or less. To ensure readability, do not
    use HTML in your posts and limit your line lengths to the Usenet
    standard of 80 characters or less.

    END CHARTER.

    PROCEDURE:

    This is a request for discussion, not a call for votes. In this phase
    of the process, any potential problems with the proposed newsgroups
    should be raised and resolved. The discussion period will continue for
    a minimum of 21 days (starting from when the first RFD for this proposal
    is posted to news.announce.newgroups), after which a Call For Votes
    (CFV) will be posted by a neutral vote taker. Please do not attempt to
    vote until this happens.

    All discussion of this proposal should be posted to news.groups.

    This RFD attempts to comply fully with the Usenet newsgroup creation
    guidelines outlined in "How to Create a New Usenet Newsgroup" and "How
    to Format and Submit a New Group Proposal". Please refer to these
    documents (available in news.announce.newgroups) if you have any
    questions about the process.

    DISTRIBUTION:

    This RFD has been posted to the following newsgroups:

    news.groups,
    news.announce.newgroups
    alt.comp.periphs.dcameras
    rec.photo.equipment.35mm
    rec.photo.digital

    Proponent: Thaddeus Lipshitz <>
    Proponent: Alan Browne <>
    Proponent: David J Taylor <>
    Proponent: William Drew <>
    Proponent: Rose Parchen <>
    Proponent: Alexis Pagonis <>
     
    Thad, Sep 8, 2004
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Thad

    Thad Guest

    Thad wrote:

    > REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)
    > unmoderated group rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
    > unmoderated group rec.photo.digital.zlr
    > unmoderated group rec.photo.digital.point+shoot
    > unmoderated group rec.photo.digital.rangefinder


    > Proponent: Thaddeus Lipshitz <>
    > Proponent: Alan Browne <>
    > Proponent: David J Taylor <>
    > Proponent: William Drew <>
    > Proponent: Rose Parchen <>
    > Proponent: Alexis Pagonis <>


    Hi Everyone. I would like to thank David, Bill, Rose, and Alexis for
    joining the proponent team. As many of you already know David and Bill
    submitted a proposal for the ZLR group. Alexis submitted a proposal for
    an ultra-compact digital camera group - this was a surprise to Alan and
    me. Todd and the good people of the NAN moderation team decided that it
    would be best if we merged all three of these proposed groups into a
    single RFD. Fortunately, we were able to collaborate and make that
    happen.

    The ultra-compact proposal seemed a bit too narrow - cameras in this RFD
    are categorized by ability, not size. Alexis agreed to reshape her group
    idea around all point-and-shoot-only digital cameras - regardless of
    physical size.

    The name of the digital SLR systems group was changed to include the
    term "slr-systems" in the newsgroup name. This specifies that the
    newsgroup is for discussion of digital SLR systems - digital SLR bodies
    with mounts for exchangeable lenses WITH NO EXCEPTIONS. Rangefinders
    were removed from the DSLR systems group - thus the birth of the
    rangefinder group, which was originally suggested in e-mails by Rose
    (owner of a Leica M6).

    Digital reflex cameras and non-reflex cameras with non-removable zoom
    lenses are covered by the ZLR newsgroup - I strongly suspect that this
    group might be the busiest of all four, if passed. ZLRs are excellent
    cameras, and there are enough users to warrant their own newsgroup. I
    strongly believe that all four of these newsgroups will flourish, if
    passed.

    With the proposal of these four newsgroups, every digital camera is at
    home in one of them. Each group would provide a Big-8 home for different
    flavors of real digital cameras - all of which are capable of giving
    excellent image quality in many situations.

    I would also like to thank everyone who contributed to the RFD process,
    whether in the news.groups discussion, or via e-mail. I welcome your
    feedback.

    --

    Thaddeus Lipshitz
     
    Thad, Sep 8, 2004
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. I do not agree with this for two reasons...
    1. an SLR does not require a lens to be removable. it can be fixed.
    2. I feel the group should be moderated.

    once those are done, I will vote for it when the CFD is called.

    However, I propose another group which most of teh membership would prefer to
    join, which is RPD.canon.slr and which would be moderated.
    If you need a proponent for it, I would take it. I have not gone thru the
    creation of a rec. group in 10 yrs or more but I would certainly think that most
    people on RPD would rather be on a Canon slr list and would like for it to be
    moderated and would like the rules loosened to include discussions on aspects
    related to the "systems" as the recently created term has been used. iow
    discussions on CF, storage, printers, etc. having to do with the Canon dSLR.

    fwiw


    fwiw
    chas
    --
    chas
    The new Canon DSLR elist. no trolls, etc
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canon-dslr/join

    ....
     
    schuetzen - RKBA!, Sep 8, 2004
    #3
  4. Thad

    Mark B. Guest

    "schuetzen - RKBA!" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    > I do not agree with this for two reasons...
    > 1. an SLR does not require a lens to be removable. it can be fixed.
    > 2. I feel the group should be moderated.
    >
    > once those are done, I will vote for it when the CFD is called.
    >
    > However, I propose another group which most of teh membership would prefer
    > to
    > join, which is RPD.canon.slr and which would be moderated.
    > If you need a proponent for it, I would take it. I have not gone thru the
    > creation of a rec. group in 10 yrs or more but I would certainly think
    > that most
    > people on RPD would rather be on a Canon slr list and would like for it to
    > be
    > moderated and would like the rules loosened to include discussions on
    > aspects
    > related to the "systems" as the recently created term has been used. iow
    > discussions on CF, storage, printers, etc. having to do with the Canon
    > dSLR.
    >
    > fwiw
    >
    >
    > fwiw
    > chas
    > --
    > chas
    > The new Canon DSLR elist. no trolls, etc
    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canon-dslr/join
    >
    > ...



    Moderation will cause a newsgroup to be DOA. If you don't believe me, go to
    rec.photo.moderated.

    Mark
     
    Mark B., Sep 8, 2004
    #4
  5. "Mark B." <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > "schuetzen - RKBA!" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > >
    > > I do not agree with this for two reasons...
    > > 1. an SLR does not require a lens to be removable. it can be

    fixed.
    > > 2. I feel the group should be moderated.
    > >
    > > once those are done, I will vote for it when the CFD is called.
    > >
    > > However, I propose another group which most of teh membership

    would prefer
    > > to
    > > join, which is RPD.canon.slr and which would be moderated.
    > > If you need a proponent for it, I would take it. I have not gone

    thru the
    > > creation of a rec. group in 10 yrs or more but I would certainly

    think
    > > that most
    > > people on RPD would rather be on a Canon slr list and would like

    for it to
    > > be
    > > moderated and would like the rules loosened to include discussions

    on
    > > aspects
    > > related to the "systems" as the recently created term has been

    used. iow
    > > discussions on CF, storage, printers, etc. having to do with the

    Canon
    > > dSLR.
    > >
    > > fwiw
    > >
    > >
    > > fwiw
    > > chas
    > > --
    > > chas
    > > The new Canon DSLR elist. no trolls, etc
    > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canon-dslr/join
    > >
    > > ...

    >
    >
    > Moderation will cause a newsgroup to be DOA. If you don't believe

    me, go to
    > rec.photo.moderated.
    >
    > Mark


    Zero posts that survived my Spam filter in the last week.


    --
    James V. Silverton
    Potomac, Maryland, USA
     
    James Silverton, Sep 8, 2004
    #5
  6. Wow, you guys (and gals) have been busy while I've been away! The new
    structure looks great too, but I do have a very slight concern about
    cross posting. As the charters stand with RFD4 it would be acceptable
    to make a cross post a query about something generic like memory cards
    to all groups in the RPD hierarchy. Is that what we want, or do we
    want a clause like "should be restricted to the RPD group and the
    subgroup(s) frequented by the poster"?

    Andy
     
    Andy Blanchard, Sep 9, 2004
    #6
  7. Thad

    Steve Young Guest

    "Charles" <> wrote

    > Thad <> wrote:


    >> Each proposed group will have its own YES/NO section on the ballot.


    > I don't see the point in proposing a group that is premature to exist.
    > Also I dislike your change of the proposed name of the proposed slr
    > group. It seems like you are so stubborn in your slr has to have
    > interchangable lens thesis that you have mucked up the proposal.


    Yeah, I agree, the whole thing has gotten all muxed up now

    It's become sekret handshakes and who are you?

    Well me and the family perdy well know how we're voting.
     
    Steve Young, Sep 9, 2004
    #7
  8. Thad

    Steve Young Guest

    "Jeremy Nixon" <> wrote

    > Thad <> wrote:


    >> REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)


    > Has this now become The Proposal That Must Please Everyone, Even
    > People Who Have No Interest In The Originally Proposed Group?


    Apparently not, as I'm not happy :(

    What a joke, they call it a reorg and ignore the 2 most important groups.

    >> unmoderated group rec.photo.digital.rangefinder


    > This is truly silly. The total number of models of digital rangefinder
    > cameras in existence is zero. That's going to be one lively group.
    > What happened to letting them hang out in the SLR group until
    > there's any kind of need for a group of their own? Like, say,
    > sometime after there actually *are* any such cameras?


    I think they're planning on playing 'dodge the troll' ;)
    get enough groups, da sekret hand shake, they be in there
     
    Steve Young, Sep 9, 2004
    #8
  9. Mark B. wrote:

    >
    >> ...

    >
    >
    >Moderation will cause a newsgroup to be DOA. If you don't believe me, go to
    >rec.photo.moderated.
    >
    >Mark


    uh huh! well, rec.guns has been moderated for more than 10 yrs and is still
    running strong. so, that for your comment.
    fwiw
    chas
    --
    chas
    The new Canon DSLR elist. no trolls, etc
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canon-dslr/join

    ....
     
    schuetzen - RKBA!, Sep 9, 2004
    #9
  10. Thad

    Bruce Murphy Guest

    schuetzen - RKBA! <> writes:

    > Mark B. wrote:
    >
    > >
    > >> ...

    > >
    > >
    > >Moderation will cause a newsgroup to be DOA. If you don't believe me, go to
    > >rec.photo.moderated.
    > >
    > >Mark

    >
    > uh huh! well, rec.guns has been moderated for more than 10 yrs and is still
    > running strong. so, that for your comment.


    Yes, but moderation by maniacs like that is hardly the same as the
    sane moderation found anywhere else.

    B>
     
    Bruce Murphy, Sep 9, 2004
    #10
  11. Thad

    Jeremy Nixon Guest

    Steve Young <bowtieATbrightdslDOTnet> wrote:

    > Apparently not, as I'm not happy :(


    What about?

    > What a joke, they call it a reorg and ignore the 2 most important groups.


    The two most important groups in rec.photo.digital? There aren't two
    groups there at all.

    --
    Jeremy |
     
    Jeremy Nixon, Sep 9, 2004
    #11
  12. Thad

    Jeremy Nixon Guest

    Andy Blanchard <> wrote:

    > As the charters stand with RFD4 it would be acceptable to make a cross
    > post a query about something generic like memory cards to all groups in
    > the RPD hierarchy. Is that what we want, or do we want a clause like
    > "should be restricted to the RPD group and the subgroup(s) frequented
    > by the poster"?


    Generic topics would still have rec.photo.digital, the existing group.
    There would be no reason to crosspost them at all.

    --
    Jeremy |
     
    Jeremy Nixon, Sep 9, 2004
    #12
  13. Thad

    Steve Young Guest

    "Jeremy Nixon" <> wrote

    > Steve Young <bowtieATbrightdslDOTnet> wrote:


    >> Apparently not, as I'm not happy :(


    > What about?


    Not fixing 2 pertinent charters along the way
    Then having the gall to call it a reorg

    >> What a joke, they call it a reorg and ignore the 2 most important
    >> groups.


    > The two most important groups in rec.photo.digital? There aren't two
    > groups there at all.


    The 2 groups germane to these proposals, i.e. rpd & rpe35
    That's where most of the photo people speaking here are from.
    I believe 35mm is home to the founding proponent/(s)
    Both groups are listed for the CFV.

    :)x
     
    Steve Young, Sep 9, 2004
    #13
  14. Thad

    Paul J Gans Guest

    schuetzen - RKBA! <> wrote:
    >Mark B. wrote:


    >>
    >>> ...

    >>
    >>
    >>Moderation will cause a newsgroup to be DOA. If you don't believe me, go to
    >>rec.photo.moderated.
    >>
    >>Mark


    >uh huh! well, rec.guns has been moderated for more than 10 yrs and is still
    >running strong. so, that for your comment.
    >fwiw
    >chas
    >--
    >chas
    >The new Canon DSLR elist. no trolls, etc
    >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canon-dslr/join


    Moderation has had mixed results. Sometimes it works, but most
    often it does not. For example I spent five minutes with my
    killfile and now rec.photo.digital is quite civilized. Sure,
    I never see about half of the postings, but then, I really
    *don't* want to see them.

    I have no position on the reorganization except to ask folks
    if they really want FIVE newsgroups, since rec.photo.digital
    will continue to exist.

    By the way, the more groups, the easier it is for spammers
    to get them all. It takes but a minute to put all the groups
    into the headers and then they get five groups for the effort
    of spamming one.

    ----- Paul J. Gans
     
    Paul J Gans, Sep 9, 2004
    #14
  15. Thad

    Jeremy Nixon Guest

    Steve Young <bowtieATbrightdslDOTnet> wrote:

    >>> Apparently not, as I'm not happy :(

    >>
    >> What about?

    >
    > Not fixing 2 pertinent charters along the way
    > Then having the gall to call it a reorg


    The proposal can't "fix" the charters of other existing groups, assuming
    there is anything wrong with them. There is no formal process for changing
    a charter, so if people in those groups want to change them, they can just
    figure out how they want to do it, and do it.

    In practice, why does it really matter?

    > The 2 groups germane to these proposals, i.e. rpd & rpe35
    > That's where most of the photo people speaking here are from.


    People aren't "from" newsgroups.

    All of the proposed groups cover topics currently covered by rec.photo.digital.
    I see no particular reason to believe that most of the same people won't be
    there, just in a better organized namespace.

    As for the 35mm group, well, none of the proposed groups is dealing with
    35mm in any way, so any discussion that "moves" will simply be moving to
    a more appropriate place.

    > I believe 35mm is home to the founding proponent/(s)


    You do realize that it's possible for a person to read more than one group,
    right?

    --
    Jeremy |
     
    Jeremy Nixon, Sep 9, 2004
    #15
  16. Thad

    ECM Guest

    Thad <> wrote in message news:<>...
    > REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)
    > unmoderated group rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
    > unmoderated group rec.photo.digital.zlr
    > unmoderated group rec.photo.digital.point+shoot
    > unmoderated group rec.photo.digital.rangefinder
    >
    > This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the reorganization of
    > the digital photography groups in the rec.photo.digital hierarchy. This
    > is not a Call for Votes (CFV); you cannot vote at this time. Procedural
    > details are below.
    > SNIP


    I think the proposed names of the groups is a problem. Very few tyro's
    (yes, like me) are going to know what you're talking about - ie. "ZLR?
    what's that? Rangefinder???...". And, let's face it, the more
    sophisticated users, with the higher end equipment, want a forum where
    they can talk to each other without the background irritation of the
    beginners. The beginners and just trying to learn-ers would probably
    appreciate a forum to get basic answers and post photos for comment
    without the jeers from the old f--ts.

    So, I humbly propose (something like):
    rec.photo.digital.professional (combining the SLR and Rangefinder
    categories)
    rec.photo.digital.hobby (combining the ZLR and Point+Shoot categories)
    rec.photo.digital.software (to discuss digital post-processing and so
    forth)

    Now, I picked these names "out of a hat" so to speak; really I just
    think that no-one will really understand the groups you've suggested,
    and the proposed names presuppose a level of knowledge of photography
    that few beginners (or even moderately sophisticated dabblers) are
    going to have. Perhaps a division along the lines of the professionals
    vs. the hobbyists would be more useful. Or perhaps hardware and
    software? I don't know.

    Anyways, my two bits....
    ECM
     
    ECM, Sep 9, 2004
    #16
  17. Thad

    Thad Guest

    Thanks for the feedback, ECM.

    ECM wrote:

    > I think the proposed names of the groups is a problem. Very few tyro's
    > (yes, like me) are going to know what you're talking about - ie. "ZLR?
    > what's that? Rangefinder???...". And, let's face it, the more
    > sophisticated users, with the higher end equipment, want a forum where
    > they can talk to each other without the background irritation of the
    > beginners. The beginners and just trying to learn-ers would probably
    > appreciate a forum to get basic answers and post photos for comment
    > without the jeers from the old f--ts.
    >
    > So, I humbly propose (something like):
    > rec.photo.digital.professional (combining the SLR and Rangefinder
    > categories)


    There are consumer, prosumer and professional models of DSLRs.
    Rangefinders are used by photographers with a wide degree of different
    backgrounds too.

    > rec.photo.digital.hobby (combining the ZLR and Point+Shoot categories)


    My Nikon D70 is used for hobbyist purposes - not professional. And this
    is a DSLR.

    > rec.photo.digital.software (to discuss digital post-processing and so
    > forth)


    Post processing will be discussed in the same group as all of the
    cameras anyway, so why ban them from the charters?

    > Now, I picked these names "out of a hat" so to speak; really I just
    > think that no-one will really understand the groups you've suggested,
    > and the proposed names presuppose a level of knowledge of photography
    > that few beginners (or even moderately sophisticated dabblers) are
    > going to have. Perhaps a division along the lines of the professionals
    > vs. the hobbyists would be more useful. Or perhaps hardware and
    > software? I don't know.
    >
    > Anyways, my two bits....
    > ECM


    Thanks, but that would open even more basis for "elitist" accusations
    than the current proposals. This way, cameras are classified by ability,
    not class or experience level. There will be beginners, intermediate,
    and advanced users in all four of the proposed groups, if passed, and
    they will all learn from each other.

    --

    Thaddeus Lipshitz
     
    Thad, Sep 9, 2004
    #17
  18. Bruce Murphy wrote:

    >
    >> uh huh! well, rec.guns has been moderated for more than 10 yrs and is still
    >> running strong. so, that for your comment.

    >
    >Yes, but moderation by maniacs like that is hardly the same as the
    >sane moderation found anywhere else.


    what in hell does that mean??? since when is Dr Purtillo a maniac??
    are you making some rabid anti right to bear arms, liberal, commie comment??


    --
    chas
    The new Canon DSLR elist. no trolls, etc
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canon-dslr/join

    ....
     
    schuetzen - RKBA!, Sep 9, 2004
    #18
  19. Thad

    Bruce Murphy Guest

    schuetzen - RKBA! <> writes:

    > Bruce Murphy wrote:
    >
    > >
    > >> uh huh! well, rec.guns has been moderated for more than 10 yrs and is still
    > >> running strong. so, that for your comment.

    > >
    > >Yes, but moderation by maniacs like that is hardly the same as the
    > >sane moderation found anywhere else.

    >
    > what in hell does that mean??? since when is Dr Purtillo a maniac??
    > are you making some rabid anti right to bear arms, liberal, commie comment??


    Absolutely, did I tell you about my idea of moving Israel to Idaho. Do
    they have guns in Idaho?

    B>
     
    Bruce Murphy, Sep 9, 2004
    #19
  20. ECM wrote:

    >
    >So, I humbly propose (something like):
    >rec.photo.digital.professional (combining the SLR and Rangefinder
    >categories)
    >rec.photo.digital.hobby (combining the ZLR and Point+Shoot categories)
    >rec.photo.digital.software (to discuss digital post-processing and so
    >forth)


    this is an excellent idea. I like it very much.
    there is no reason why we have to go with these RFDs and any CFV...
    in fact, I expect all or most will fail just as a result of apathy or confusion
    AND apathy.

    basically, I enjoy my Canon-dSLR elist when it is perking as it is completely
    moderated but nothing is OFF TOPIC as long as it relates to Canon dSLRs or
    things related as covered by your software suggestions and all the hardware, and
    peripherals out there. in fact, the RPD has been pretty calm for the last few
    days. and I really see no need to move to one of these additional groups.

    However, I still think that well over half of those reading the RPD are Canon
    owners/users and that such a group aimed at those people would be heavily
    frequented as long as it is moderated and that the present freedom of topic
    related subjects are allowed.

    I just do not like what has been proposed. period!
    fwiw
    chas
    --
    chas
    The new Canon DSLR elist. no trolls, etc
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canon-dslr/join

    ....
     
    schuetzen - RKBA!, Sep 9, 2004
    #20
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