4MP/5MP over again

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by CNT, Oct 2, 2003.

  1. CNT

    CNT Guest

    >>Thanks for reply. I shoot mostly inside the house (kids doing stuff or
    just
    >>growing memories). I do would like to be able to do enlargements, but I
    >>think I should be OK with 8x10's for my hall. I shoot outdoor too
    >>(landscapes). It is now my understanding that the low light is the

    important
    >>issue, thus the S45 be better (I use Auto almost all the time, yet).
    >>

    >Indoors - if you're just going to use Auto - then the camera is going
    >to use Flash -
    >so you're very UNlikely to be doing any real low-light/available-light
    >photos.
    >
    >If you want to do landscapes - the higher the pixel count the better.
    >
    >So it sounds as though you may be better off getting the Canon S50 -
    >which I think brings you back to full circle :) ;)


    Here I am again, back to the top of the full circle! I am still focusing on
    buying the S45. But the last statement says otherwise? Since I am not a
    professional, I think I may understand better if I ask the question
    backwards (LOL). Ok. Ready. What would the S50 would NOT be good for?

    VT, what you mean? I know that the flash will flash, regardless of the
    lighting inside the house or a building. What about the flasher? Please
    expound.

    VT, I am not understanding your statement --> "so you're very UNlikely to be
    doing any real low-light/available-light photos"??? In other words, are you
    saying that I would NOT be doing night shots, NOT doing the sunsets, NOT
    doing the very dark room (meaning lamp on very low dim), and the likes? I
    just want to understand the statement.

    I know I am typing too much, but I want to learn. I do browse and read a lot
    in dpreview.com. I am in the process of learning digital photography. It is
    to my understanding that using ISO 50 or 100 on either camera (S45 or S50)
    will do outstanding pictures. If I am using higher numbers, like ISO 400,
    the 4MP (S45) would take better pictures than the 5MP (S50) at ANY LIGHTING
    or ROOM SETTINGS. Correct? If not correct, PLEASE tell me what I am not
    understanding, so I get better idea or knowledge of what I am doing. Again,
    I using the camera for family pictures (standing few feet away). I will do
    some (if not very little) landscapes (like on vacations, cars/motorcycles)
    but not my main purposes. Yes, I will be using "Auto" (with red-eye
    reduction enabled) most of the time (if not at all times). But I want to try
    something new (which would be old news to you guys), like changing the ISO,
    Aperture, Manual, Shutter Speed, etc. I still like to limit to Canon S45 or
    S50.

    Please lets make this thread grow and thank you. Where's Todd? Steve? I hope
    those porn posts didn't stop you from answering/helping my little
    knowledge/questions. I just ignore the porns.

    Chuck
    CNT, Oct 2, 2003
    #1
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  2. CNT

    VT Guest

    On Thu, 02 Oct 2003 22:37:03 GMT, "CNT" <> wrote:


    >VT, what you mean? I know that the flash will flash, regardless of the
    >lighting inside the house or a building. What about the flasher? Please
    >expound.
    >


    OK - If you just use the S45 or any other Canon on AUTO - indoors
    where the light is low enough - the camera will "automatically" use
    the Flash - so unless the subject is out of range - there will be
    "plenty of light" from the Flash - ie: the photo is a Flash photo, NOT
    a low light photo.

    Another thing is under AUTO - the ISO sensitivity will be "auto" - and
    as far as I understand that's ISO 50 -100 (maybe 150?) - so the camera
    will not venture into the ISO 200 - 400 territory -

    both the above means the CCD noise that people have made you so
    worried about is not really an issue.

    >VT, I am not understanding your statement --> "so you're very UNlikely to be
    >doing any real low-light/available-light photos"??? In other words, are you
    >saying that I would NOT be doing night shots, NOT doing the sunsets, NOT
    >doing the very dark room (meaning lamp on very low dim), and the likes? I
    >just want to understand the statement.
    >


    See above - unless you deliberately switch off the flash - your indoor
    shots use Flash, and will not be low-light/available light photos -
    and the flash will provide plenty of light.

    Sunsets are in fact very bright (one is taking a photo of the sun!).

    However if you do intend to take lots of shots indoors under low room
    lighting with the flash switched off - then you should consider a
    digicam with lower noise at the higher ISO levels -

    but just be aware there will be lots of blurred shots due to either
    camera movement or more likely subject movement -
    this is probably not very suitable for fast moving children .


    >. Yes, I will be using "Auto" (with red-eye
    >reduction enabled) most of the time (if not at all times).


    This statement says you intend to do the majority of photos using
    Flash - which all the above applies.

    --
    Vincent
    remove CLOTHES for e-mail

    http://UnknownVincent.cjb.net/
    VT, Oct 3, 2003
    #2
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  3. CNT

    CNT Guest

    Thanks for the reply. I do understand better now. Still correct me...

    If I am not going to use the flash, that's where the 4MP/5MP issues comes in
    (being the 4MP is better at low-light rooms without using the flash).

    In other words, if I am in the basement with mere two light bulbs on (far
    apart) and setting the flasher OFF, the noise will arise. On the other hand,
    same basement with the flasher ON, the 5MP beats the 4MP. Correct?

    In this case, wouldn't I better off buying the 5MP then? I know it's all
    depend "if's". Is the (5MP) noise issue ONLY applies if there's isn't enough
    light AND setting the flash in OFF mode. I mean both S45 and S50 are the
    SAME camera, only main differences is the 4/5MP, so that's what I am concern
    about. I am still interested in limit to those two cameras (S45 or S50), so
    which of those would be better (for me) is my question.

    To make this matter deeper, can you or anyone tell me WHAT an 5MP digital
    camera (e.g., the S50) would be bad for? What about the last picture on the
    bottom of the link below?

    http://www.dpreview.com/learn/key=noise

    Please don't give up on me, I want to learn more! Thank you.

    Chuck

    > OK - If you just use the S45 or any other Canon on AUTO - indoors
    > where the light is low enough - the camera will "automatically" use
    > the Flash - so unless the subject is out of range - there will be
    > "plenty of light" from the Flash - ie: the photo is a Flash photo, NOT
    > a low light photo.
    >
    > Another thing is under AUTO - the ISO sensitivity will be "auto" - and
    > as far as I understand that's ISO 50 -100 (maybe 150?) - so the camera
    > will not venture into the ISO 200 - 400 territory -
    >
    > both the above means the CCD noise that people have made you so
    > worried about is not really an issue.
    >
    > See above - unless you deliberately switch off the flash - your indoor
    > shots use Flash, and will not be low-light/available light photos -
    > and the flash will provide plenty of light.
    >
    > Sunsets are in fact very bright (one is taking a photo of the sun!).
    >
    > However if you do intend to take lots of shots indoors under low room
    > lighting with the flash switched off - then you should consider a
    > digicam with lower noise at the higher ISO levels -
    CNT, Oct 3, 2003
    #3
  4. CNT

    VT Guest

    On Fri, 03 Oct 2003 19:05:55 GMT, "CNT" <> wrote:

    >Thanks for the reply. I do understand better now. Still correct me...
    >
    >If I am not going to use the flash, that's where the 4MP/5MP issues comes in
    >(being the 4MP is better at low-light rooms without using the flash).
    >


    *and* using High ISO -

    generally if you use ISO 50 or 100 the noise difference is not
    significant enough in practical use.

    4 or 5Mp is really still more dependent on what you use the camera for
    -- if you are mostly going to be happy with 6x4 and 7x5 prints - then
    even a 3Mp digicam will do fine - but going 10x8 and above 4-5Mp is
    needed and it still depends on how demanding you are - at 10x8 I can
    only really see differences in crispness of the print using a 2-3x
    magnifying glass - (only maniacs like me carry magnifying glasses
    around to "examine" photos) - most sane normal people just look at
    photos - then the difference is not significant enough to warrent
    higher pixels - in fact at 10x8 probably most will be happy with 3Mp.

    However if you want to do _landscape_ photography - then generally the
    more pixels the better - since generally landscapes need to capture as
    much detail as possible - of course YMMV.

    --
    Vincent
    remove CLOTHES for e-mail

    http://UnknownVincent.cjb.net/
    VT, Oct 4, 2003
    #4
  5. CNT

    gr Guest

    "CNT" <> wrote
    >
    > In other words, if I am in the basement with mere two light bulbs on (far
    > apart) and setting the flasher OFF, the noise will arise. On the other

    hand,
    > same basement with the flasher ON, the 5MP beats the 4MP. Correct?


    I really think you're blowing the issue of noise out of proportion. Get the
    5MP camera, instead of the 4MP. It will take crisper pictures, and allow you
    to crop more (if necessary). Even if some low-light pictures show more noise
    per pixel area than a 4MP sensor, you can always shrink a 5MP image down to
    a 4MP image size and that will get rid of some of the noise!

    You can't go wrong with having a larger image to start with. There are only
    a few cases where a low-noise 4MP camera will beat a slightly-noisier 5MP
    camera. The other 99% of the time you'll be glad you went with the 5MP.
    gr, Oct 4, 2003
    #5
  6. CNT

    CNT Guest

    gr, thanks for the point. All I was asking is since I am BUYING a new camera
    at this point of life, it is going to be my long time camera, even if when
    5MP is outdated (I know not, just be funny). I plan to keep the camera for
    many years, that's my point. I can see that either the 4MP or the 5MP will
    serve me well through the years. Just that if I start blowing the photo into
    larger sizes, I rather make wise choice NOW while I am buying it today.

    Now, the next issue (below) brings me into the new area of exploration. I
    can have a 5MP with a noise and resample the image and that would get rid
    some of the noise (as if it was 4MP alone to begin with?). Very interesting.
    Anyone in Milwaukee, WI can do that (or you won't tell me since I might
    bother you too much :p ).

    > I really think you're blowing the issue of noise out of proportion. Get

    the
    > 5MP camera, instead of the 4MP. It will take crisper pictures, and allow

    you
    > to crop more (if necessary). Even if some low-light pictures show more

    noise
    > per pixel area than a 4MP sensor, you can always shrink a 5MP image down

    to
    > a 4MP image size and that will get rid of some of the noise!
    >
    > You can't go wrong with having a larger image to start with. There are

    only
    > a few cases where a low-noise 4MP camera will beat a slightly-noisier 5MP
    > camera. The other 99% of the time you'll be glad you went with the 5MP.


    Since I am not very knowledgeable with digital photography, let alone film
    camera, I only can trust the reviews and in here; where the pros that know
    what they are talking about help me out. With that in mind, I am still
    wondering why many others are batting down the 5MP (with 1/1.8" sensor).
    However, maybe you could show me samples of low-light image where you
    wouldn't want the flasher to strike??

    I hope I am not making you frustration. I could indeed see the noise in the
    link http://www.dpreview.com/learn/key=noise . I mean I just click each
    image (with crayons and watch) and let the browser shrink it to fit the
    800x600 screen. From there, I can see the numbers on the watch more blurring
    on the 5MP. Yet, is it only because the picture was taken at ISO 1600, which
    the S45 only goes up to ISO 400? Or it is completely something different
    than the S45 vs. S50 war?

    Please bear with me, keep helping me out as this subject is important to me.
    Again, I like samples of low-light pictures, please.

    Chuck
    CNT, Oct 4, 2003
    #6
  7. CNT

    gr Guest

    "CNT" <> wrote
    >
    > Now, the next issue (below) brings me into the new area of exploration. I
    > can have a 5MP with a noise and resample the image and that would get rid
    > some of the noise (as if it was 4MP alone to begin with?).


    Yes, it will get rid of some of the noise. I'm not aware of any comparisons
    between a 5MP reduced to 4MP, and a 4MP unreduced. If you're planning on
    shrinking all your 5MP images to 4MP, though, you may as well just get a 4MP
    camera!

    > I hope I am not making you frustration. I could indeed see the noise in

    the
    > link http://www.dpreview.com/learn/key=noise . I mean I just click each
    > image (with crayons and watch) and let the browser shrink it to fit the
    > 800x600 screen.


    Bad thing to do. Your browser won't properly resample an image to a smaller
    size... it just does dumb pixel-removing. Get something like Irfanview, and
    use it to resize the image with it's best quality filter. You'll really
    notice noise disappear when you shrink an image properly.

    > From there, I can see the numbers on the watch more blurring
    > on the 5MP.


    Like I said, do a comparison by properly shrinking the image with
    photo-editing software.

    > Yet, is it only because the picture was taken at ISO 1600, which
    > the S45 only goes up to ISO 400? Or it is completely something different
    > than the S45 vs. S50 war?


    Normally, you'd never use the highest ISO setting on any camera, unless you
    are desperate. I almost always use the lowest ISO (which is generally free
    of noise for practical purposes), and use a tripod if there's not much
    light.

    > Again, I like samples of low-light pictures, please.


    I can provide you low-light samples, but only from a Olympus C5050 camera
    (or some older models I have kicking around), so it probably won't do you
    much good in your comparison between the two Canon models.

    I still wonder why you're fixating on noise so much. Are you planning to
    shoot primarily low-light scenes without a flash? If so, maybe going for a
    4MP model with lower noise is your best bet. Otherwise, go for 5MP, which
    will beat 4MP 99% of the time.
    gr, Oct 4, 2003
    #7
  8. CNT

    CNT Guest

    According to dpreview.com, flash guide no.:
    S45 = 4.8 m (15.7 ft)
    S50 = 4.0 m (13.1 ft)

    Should it be the same, since both have the same body and stuff? If the above
    is true, then the S45 is the way to go.

    The S50 has .5x extra digital zoom, but I know it means nothing.

    Auto focus type:
    S45 = TTL, FlexiZone
    S50 = Ai AF TTL 9-point

    Again, S45 is better?

    Lastly, both have compressed JPEG, but according to dpreview, S45 has EXIF
    and the S50 has EXIF 2.2. Is this a mistake, because I see other reviews
    showing both have EXIF 2.2?

    That's all the side-by-side, other than the pixels. I will study some more
    on the (S45/50) image itself from dpreview some time next week.

    Chuck


    "VT" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Fri, 03 Oct 2003 19:05:55 GMT, "CNT" <> wrote:
    >
    > >Thanks for the reply. I do understand better now. Still correct me...
    > >
    > >If I am not going to use the flash, that's where the 4MP/5MP issues comes

    in
    > >(being the 4MP is better at low-light rooms without using the flash).
    > >

    >
    > *and* using High ISO -
    >
    > generally if you use ISO 50 or 100 the noise difference is not
    > significant enough in practical use.
    >
    > 4 or 5Mp is really still more dependent on what you use the camera for
    > -- if you are mostly going to be happy with 6x4 and 7x5 prints - then
    > even a 3Mp digicam will do fine - but going 10x8 and above 4-5Mp is
    > needed and it still depends on how demanding you are - at 10x8 I can
    > only really see differences in crispness of the print using a 2-3x
    > magnifying glass - (only maniacs like me carry magnifying glasses
    > around to "examine" photos) - most sane normal people just look at
    > photos - then the difference is not significant enough to warrent
    > higher pixels - in fact at 10x8 probably most will be happy with 3Mp.
    >
    > However if you want to do _landscape_ photography - then generally the
    > more pixels the better - since generally landscapes need to capture as
    > much detail as possible - of course YMMV.
    >
    > --
    > Vincent
    > remove CLOTHES for e-mail
    >
    > http://UnknownVincent.cjb.net/
    CNT, Oct 4, 2003
    #8
  9. CNT

    CNT Guest

    I have decided (as I did before) to go with the S45 (4MP). I did compare the
    image (with browser), which you say no-no. Both generally looks the same. I
    will be shooting in Super-Fine and both camera have the same Super-Fine
    size, so I will close with the S45. Thanks for your all help. I will still
    reading in here like 10 times daily.

    Chuck

    > If you're planning on shrinking all your 5MP images to 4MP,
    > though, you may as well just get a 4MP camera!
    CNT, Oct 4, 2003
    #9
  10. CNT

    gr Guest

    "CNT" <> wrote
    > I have decided (as I did before) to go with the S45 (4MP). I did compare

    the
    > image (with browser), which you say no-no. Both generally looks the same.

    I
    > will be shooting in Super-Fine and both camera have the same Super-Fine
    > size, so I will close with the S45. Thanks for your all help. I will still
    > reading in here like 10 times daily.


    I'm glad you made your decision, even though it sounds like you made the
    completely wrong decision based on the information. Oh well, I'm sure both
    are good cameras, and you'll be happy with either one.
    gr, Oct 4, 2003
    #10
  11. CNT

    CNT Guest

    > I'm glad you made your decision, even though it sounds like you made the
    > completely wrong decision based on the information.


    I am not understanding the statement above. You mean I judge the image with
    a browser instead of the Adobe Photoshop?

    The below is what I do with Photoshop when I get the files ready to upload
    to Walmart.com for prints, can you tell me if STEP ONE is called "shrinking"
    (ignore the crop step) in term of cutting down the noise with 5MP issue you
    explained :

    1) Image, Image Size, change the Print Size to 6 x 4.5
    (leaving the Pixel Dimensions as is, Resample Image unchecked)
    2) View, Print Size
    3) Using the Marquee Tool, get 6 x 4.002
    4) Image, Crop
    5) Save As, name.jpg, Maximum

    If it is, then since this is what I do to every picture I send for prints
    (whether be 4x6 or 8x10), 5MP is the way. Is that what you are saying in
    gerenal?

    Chuck
    CNT, Oct 5, 2003
    #11
  12. CNT

    gr Guest

    "CNT" <> wrote
    >
    > I am not understanding the statement above. You mean I judge the image

    with
    > a browser instead of the Adobe Photoshop?
    >
    > The below is what I do with Photoshop when I get the files ready to upload
    > to Walmart.com for prints, can you tell me if STEP ONE is called

    "shrinking"
    > (ignore the crop step) in term of cutting down the noise with 5MP issue

    you
    > explained :
    >
    > 1) Image, Image Size, change the Print Size to 6 x 4.5
    > (leaving the Pixel Dimensions as is, Resample Image unchecked)


    I don't have Photoshop, but it sounds like you should have "resample image"
    checked, and not unchecked.

    All I'm saying is that there are many algorithms to shrink an image in size.
    A browser uses about the worst algorithm possible. A good photo editor (like
    Photoshop) should have several methods to resize an image. Choose the best
    possible method (it will probably be the slowest method), and you will end
    up with a smaller image (with less detail of course) that shows less defects
    (like noise, among others). If you choose a bad method, you'll have a
    smaller image (with less detail) that still has all the same visible defects
    as the large image!

    Most places you get prints made from will properly resample an image. Don't
    shrink the image yourself, if you plan to print it. Let the printer do that.
    gr, Oct 5, 2003
    #12
  13. CNT

    CNT Guest

    I don't resample the image after cropping to keep all the details for
    Walprint to print. I think I understand "strinking" means to resample, thur
    deletes the pixels, I see. I never thought of doing that. In fact, if I need
    to save in a smaller size, I use number 9 or 8 of the JPEG "Save As" to help
    make the file smaller. Somebody look at the steps and tell me what I have
    been doing for the 250 pictures I did in the past few years.

    Chuck

    > I don't have Photoshop, but it sounds like you should have "resample

    image"
    > checked, and not unchecked.
    CNT, Oct 5, 2003
    #13
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