30D -- Disappointing?

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Bill Hilton, Feb 21, 2006.

  1. Bill Hilton

    Bill Hilton Guest

    I guess I was expecting more of an upgrade to the 20D, at least to 10
    Mpixels ... specially given what Nikon's shipping now ...

    Bill
    (Canon user)
     
    Bill Hilton, Feb 21, 2006
    #1
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  2. Bill Hilton wrote:
    > I guess I was expecting more of an upgrade to the 20D, at least to 10
    > Mpixels ... specially given what Nikon's shipping now ...


    Looks pretty much what I had in mind. It's an even smaller step up than
    from the 10D to the 20D, Spot metering is really the only thing I can
    see that I'd find useful. Oh, the 3fps burst mode - 5fps on the 20D can
    be annoyingly quick at times...
     
    Derek Fountain, Feb 21, 2006
    #2
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  3. Bill Hilton wrote:
    > I guess I was expecting more of an upgrade to the 20D, at least to 10
    > Mpixels ... specially given what Nikon's shipping now ...
    >
    > Bill
    > (Canon user)


    After all the hoopla and rumours surrounding the 30D, this one turned
    out to be a HUGE disappointment. Pretty un-Canon like behaviour!!

    - Siddhartha
    (Canon 300D owner)
     
    Siddhartha Jain, Feb 21, 2006
    #3
  4. Bill Hilton wrote:
    > I guess I was expecting more of an upgrade to the 20D, at least to 10
    > Mpixels ... specially given what Nikon's shipping now ...
    >
    > Bill
    > (Canon user)
    >

    Canon unveils successor to the EOS 20D
    http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=7-7891-8214

    I believe this is an indication that the sensors are reaching
    their peak. To cram more megapixels into a 1.6 crop factor
    sensor means the pixel size would be smaller, affecting
    signal-to-noise ratios. To go more megapixels, with
    equally low noise images, they would have to go to a 1.3 crop
    factor.

    But the 100,000 shutter life and higher frames/sec is nice.

    I'm hoping for 14-bits A to D converters (or more), but I've seen no
    indication of that in the announcements.

    Roger
     
    Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark), Feb 21, 2006
    #4
  5. Bill Hilton

    Sarah Brown Guest

    In article <43fb143f$0$49408$>,
    Derek Fountain <> wrote:
    >
    >Looks pretty much what I had in mind. It's an even smaller step up than
    >from the 10D to the 20D, Spot metering is really the only thing I can
    >see that I'd find useful. Oh, the 3fps burst mode - 5fps on the 20D can
    >be annoyingly quick at times...


    As far as I can tell, it's a 5D with the 20D's sensor, a popup flash and a
    non-user-changable focus screen.
     
    Sarah Brown, Feb 21, 2006
    #5
  6. In article <>,
    Siddhartha Jain <> wrote:

    > After all the hoopla and rumours surrounding the 30D, this one turned
    > out to be a HUGE disappointment. Pretty un-Canon like behaviour!!


    I'm not impressed either. I'll stick with my 10D for the time being. I
    didn't even see the 20D as being a significant enough improvement to
    open my wallet.
     
    Randall Ainsworth, Feb 21, 2006
    #6
  7. "Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)" <> wrote:
    >>

    > Canon unveils successor to the EOS 20D
    > http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=7-7891-8214
    >
    > I believe this is an indication that the sensors are reaching
    > their peak. To cram more megapixels into a 1.6 crop factor
    > sensor means the pixel size would be smaller, affecting
    > signal-to-noise ratios. To go more megapixels, with
    > equally low noise images, they would have to go to a 1.3 crop
    > factor.


    Yep. It's nice to see Canon holding the line on the MP craziness.

    > But the 100,000 shutter life and higher frames/sec is nice.


    The spot meter and rgb histograms are significant improvements in
    functionality. Now there's no reason to get a 5D other than the sensor<g>.

    > I'm hoping for 14-bits A to D converters (or more), but I've seen no
    > indication of that in the announcements.


    That'll probably require a new generation of the DIGIC chip, so it probably
    won't happen for a while.

    David J. Littleboy
    Tokyo, Japan
     
    David J. Littleboy, Feb 21, 2006
    #7
  8. Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) wrote:
    > Bill Hilton wrote:
    > > I guess I was expecting more of an upgrade to the 20D, at least to 10
    > > Mpixels ... specially given what Nikon's shipping now ...
    > >
    > > Bill
    > > (Canon user)
    > >

    > Canon unveils successor to the EOS 20D
    > http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=7-7891-8214
    >
    > I believe this is an indication that the sensors are reaching
    > their peak. To cram more megapixels into a 1.6 crop factor
    > sensor means the pixel size would be smaller, affecting
    > signal-to-noise ratios. To go more megapixels, with
    > equally low noise images, they would have to go to a 1.3 crop
    > factor.
    >
    > But the 100,000 shutter life and higher frames/sec is nice.
    >
    > I'm hoping for 14-bits A to D converters (or more), but I've seen no
    > indication of that in the announcements.
    >
    > Roger


    Given what Fuji is doing with its new SuperHR CCD sensors used in
    F10/F11/F30, isn't it more likely that Canon's current breed of APS-C
    sensors have reached their limit and Canon need to re-design the
    sensor?

    - Siddhartha
     
    Siddhartha Jain, Feb 21, 2006
    #8
  9. "Randall Ainsworth" <> wrote:
    > Siddhartha Jain <> wrote:
    >
    >> After all the hoopla and rumours surrounding the 30D, this one turned
    >> out to be a HUGE disappointment. Pretty un-Canon like behaviour!!

    >
    > I'm not impressed either. I'll stick with my 10D for the time being. I
    > didn't even see the 20D as being a significant enough improvement to
    > open my wallet.


    Spot meter, rgb histograms, bigger screen. Much faster operation than the
    10D, and the AF should be a lot better than the 10D, too.

    It's nowhere near enough for a 20D user to upgrade, but a big improvement
    over the 10D.

    Still, other than the 1Dmk2 -> 1Dmk2n, it's the most unimpressive "upgrade"
    in Canon's history; it really doesn't deserve a new number and should have
    been called the 20Dn.

    David J. Littleboy
    Tokyo, Japan
     
    David J. Littleboy, Feb 21, 2006
    #9
  10. Bill Hilton

    l e o Guest

    Siddhartha Jain wrote:
    > Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) wrote:
    >> Bill Hilton wrote:
    >>> I guess I was expecting more of an upgrade to the 20D, at least to 10
    >>> Mpixels ... specially given what Nikon's shipping now ...
    >>>
    >>> Bill
    >>> (Canon user)
    >>>

    >> Canon unveils successor to the EOS 20D
    >> http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=7-7891-8214
    >>
    >> I believe this is an indication that the sensors are reaching
    >> their peak. To cram more megapixels into a 1.6 crop factor
    >> sensor means the pixel size would be smaller, affecting
    >> signal-to-noise ratios. To go more megapixels, with
    >> equally low noise images, they would have to go to a 1.3 crop
    >> factor.
    >>
    >> But the 100,000 shutter life and higher frames/sec is nice.
    >>
    >> I'm hoping for 14-bits A to D converters (or more), but I've seen no
    >> indication of that in the announcements.
    >>
    >> Roger

    >
    > Given what Fuji is doing with its new SuperHR CCD sensors used in
    > F10/F11/F30, isn't it more likely that Canon's current breed of APS-C
    > sensors have reached their limit and Canon need to re-design the
    > sensor?
    >
    > - Siddhartha



    I don't know much about Fujifilm, but if the SR II sensor's that much
    better, I think we would have heard many Nikon users buying S3 Pro already.

    As for Canon, I like that they make a wise decision not to cram more
    megapixels. As Rob Galbraith mentioned, he prefers to use 20D over D200
    for available light basketball games because it has better high ISO
    performance and somehow getting more shots of sharp pictures [not sure why].
     
    l e o, Feb 21, 2006
    #10
  11. I don't know why people are disappointed. This is about what was to
    be expected, a product improvement of the 20D just like the 1DIIN last
    fall. Why would they need to change much? If you want more
    megapixels, you can get the 5D.


    ******************************************************

    "I have been a witness, and these pictures are
    my testimony. The events I have recorded should
    not be forgotten and must not be repeated."

    -James Nachtwey-
    http://www.jamesnachtwey.com/
     
    John A. Stovall, Feb 21, 2006
    #11
  12. On 21 Feb 2006 06:12:08 -0800, "Siddhartha Jain"
    <> wrote:

    >Bill Hilton wrote:
    >> I guess I was expecting more of an upgrade to the 20D, at least to 10
    >> Mpixels ... specially given what Nikon's shipping now ...
    >>
    >> Bill
    >> (Canon user)

    >
    >After all the hoopla and rumours surrounding the 30D, this one turned
    >out to be a HUGE disappointment. Pretty un-Canon like behaviour!!


    I didn't see any hoopla on Canon's part. I did see a lot of
    fantasizing by the cheap gear heads where who don't want to pay for
    the features they want.


    ******************************************************

    "I have been a witness, and these pictures are
    my testimony. The events I have recorded should
    not be forgotten and must not be repeated."

    -James Nachtwey-
    http://www.jamesnachtwey.com/
     
    John A. Stovall, Feb 21, 2006
    #12
  13. Bill Hilton

    Bill Hilton Guest

    > Roger N. Clark writes ...
    >
    >I believe this is an indication that the sensors are reaching
    >their peak. To cram more megapixels into a 1.6 crop factor
    >sensor means the pixel size would be smaller, affecting
    >signal-to-noise ratios.


    The theory is valid ... but in practice the Nikon D2x has crammed 12+
    Mpixels into a 1.5x sensor and the results are higher resolution with
    acceptable noise levels, based on actually viewing images taken with
    this body. The low to moderate ISO images from this camera are
    outstanding (several people had this body with the 500 or 600 f/4's and
    200-400 f/4 VR in Africa and it's an impressive combination). The high
    ISO images didn't look that great but neither did the ISO 3200 shots I
    took at the same time when we were shooting a lion in early AM
    darkness.

    > To go more megapixels, with equally low noise images, they
    > would have to go to a 1.3 crop factor.


    I'm sure there's an optimal point between noise and resolution. From
    what I've seen though Nikon is doing a better job at approaching this
    point right now than is Canon. If Nikon had VR in the 500 f/4 I'd be
    tempted to switch brands (when I win Lotto :) because of the D2x and
    200-400 f/4 VR (Canon has a gaping hole in the zoom-to-400mm category
    too, this is a far better lens than the 100-400 IS).

    Anyway I was expecting at least 10 Mpixels from the 30D ... looks like
    a relatively cosmetic up-grade to me as is.

    Bill
     
    Bill Hilton, Feb 21, 2006
    #13
  14. Bill Hilton

    l e o Guest

    John A. Stovall wrote:
    > I don't know why people are disappointed. This is about what was to
    > be expected, a product improvement of the 20D just like the 1DIIN last
    > fall. Why would they need to change much? If you want more
    > megapixels, you can get the 5D.
    >
    >
    > ******************************************************
    >
    > "I have been a witness, and these pictures are
    > my testimony. The events I have recorded should
    > not be forgotten and must not be repeated."
    >
    > -James Nachtwey-
    > http://www.jamesnachtwey.com/




    because people are expecting a direct competition with D200.
     
    l e o, Feb 21, 2006
    #14
  15. "l e o" <> wrote:
    >
    > As for Canon, I like that they make a wise decision not to cram more
    > megapixels. As Rob Galbraith mentioned, he prefers to use 20D over D200
    > for available light basketball games because it has better high ISO
    > performance and somehow getting more shots of sharp pictures [not sure
    > why].


    The D200 AF may be problematic. A Japanese 5D/D200 shootout had the 5D
    getting a way higher percentage of AF shots in focus. To the point that in a
    burst, the 5D would get more usable images than the D200 despite being a lot
    slower.

    David J. Littleboy
    Tokyo, Japan
     
    David J. Littleboy, Feb 21, 2006
    #15
  16. Bill Hilton

    Scott W Guest

    Bill Hilton wrote:
    > I guess I was expecting more of an upgrade to the 20D, at least to 10
    > Mpixels ... specially given what Nikon's shipping now ...
    >

    Not all that much new, as far as I can tell. It kind of looks like
    DSLRs are getting to be a mature product. I am very happy with the 20D
    so I was not holding my breath for this one, clearly not enough of a
    change to be worthwhile to up grade for most of us.

    Scott
     
    Scott W, Feb 21, 2006
    #16
  17. Bill Hilton

    Gizmo Guest

    "Bill Hilton" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >I guess I was expecting more of an upgrade to the 20D, at least to 10
    > Mpixels ... specially given what Nikon's shipping now ...


    Looking at the full specs for the 30D against my 20D took me back to my
    childhood ..... playing "spot the difference" !
     
    Gizmo, Feb 21, 2006
    #17
  18. > because people are expecting a direct competition with D200.

    And because the step from 20D to 30D implies a significant improvement,
    like the 10D to 20D jump was. In fact, this update is far more of a
    marketing exercise, and the big jump in model number strikes me as
    somewhat cynical.
     
    Derek Fountain, Feb 21, 2006
    #18
  19. Bill Hilton

    VK Guest

    Siddhartha Jain wrote:
    > Given what Fuji is doing with its new SuperHR CCD sensors used in
    > F10/F11/F30, isn't it more likely that Canon's current breed of APS-C
    > sensors have reached their limit and Canon need to re-design the
    > sensor?


    Who knows? Fujis is a different sensor. Since none of us know
    anything about sensor technology (presumably!), this is pure
    conjecture.

    I for one am glad Canon got out of the incremental megapixel
    one-upmanship race.

    Vandit
     
    VK, Feb 21, 2006
    #19
  20. Bill Hilton

    VK Guest

    l e o wrote:
    > because people are expecting a direct competition with D200.


    If you give the Rob Galbraith review any credence, the 20D already does
    compete with the D200. It aint just megapixels: speed of AF and
    megapixels also count.

    V.
     
    VK, Feb 21, 2006
    #20
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