25 MP sensor of Sony

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Alfred Molon, Jan 30, 2008.

  1. Alfred Molon

    Alfred Molon Guest

    Alfred Molon, Jan 30, 2008
    #1
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  2. Alfred Molon

    Scott W Guest

    On Jan 30, 11:08 am, Alfred Molon <> wrote:
    > http://news.sel.sony.com/en/press_room/corporate_news/release/33192.html
    >
    > What lens would you need for a beast like this? Probably something
    > better than a 100 Euro kit lens, right?


    Since it is a full field lens the pixels are still fairly large, in
    fact not much smaller then the pixels on my 350D and 20D. My cheap
    50mm lens if plently sharp enough for both of those camera so I would
    think it would be for a 25MP FF camera, not that Sony will be nice
    enough to produce a camera with a Canon lens mount.

    My 300mm f/4 IS L lens is good enough that not only can I get sharp
    image with the pixels size of my cameras but it even gives fairly
    sharp image when using a 1.4x tele-converter. That lens on a FF
    camera with 25MP would be a joy to use.

    Scott
     
    Scott W, Jan 30, 2008
    #2
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  3. Alfred Molon

    Cynicor Guest

    Cynicor, Jan 30, 2008
    #3
  4. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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    Alfred Molon wrote:
    > http://news.sel.sony.com/en/press_room/corporate_news/release/33192.html
    >
    > What lens would you need for a beast like this? Probably something
    > better than a 100 Euro kit lens, right?


    Never mind, in 10 years it'll end up in a tiny camera with an 8mm plastic
    lens anyway ;] 25 Mpixels will look great on an advert.
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    =nkwU
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    Brendan Gillatt, Jan 30, 2008
    #4
  5. Alfred Molon

    ray Guest

    On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 22:08:24 +0100, Alfred Molon wrote:

    > http://news.sel.sony.com/en/press_room/corporate_news/release/33192.html
    >
    > What lens would you need for a beast like this? Probably something
    > better than a 100 Euro kit lens, right?


    Since the sensor seems to be the same size as a 35mm frame, I would
    assume that standard 35mm lenses should be adequate.
     
    ray, Jan 30, 2008
    #5
  6. Alfred Molon

    ray Guest

    On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 16:22:12 -0500, Cynicor wrote:

    > Alfred Molon wrote:
    >> http://news.sel.sony.com/en/press_room/corporate_news/

    release/33192.html
    >>
    >> What lens would you need for a beast like this? Probably something
    >> better than a 100 Euro kit lens, right?

    >
    > Forget that, how many hard drives would you need for a day's shooting?


    Only one, if it's large enough!
     
    ray, Jan 30, 2008
    #6
  7. Alfred Molon

    Al Dykes Guest

    In article <>,
    Cynicor <> wrote:
    >Alfred Molon wrote:
    >> http://news.sel.sony.com/en/press_room/corporate_news/release/33192.html
    >>
    >> What lens would you need for a beast like this? Probably something
    >> better than a 100 Euro kit lens, right?

    >
    >Forget that, how many hard drives would you need for a day's shooting?



    I was looking at the 6 frames/sec capability. With 3 bytes/pixel,
    that's 450M Bytes/Sec sustained transfer rate and/or a Gigabyte of RAM
    in-camera to buffer a burst of two seconds.

    The fact that solid-state disks are becomming affordable may be part
    of solution, but I don't know what kind of cable can be designed to
    conect a camera to a laptop. Wireless?






    --
    Al Dykes
    News is something someone wants to suppress, everything else is advertising.
    - Lord Northcliffe, publisher of the Daily Mail
     
    Al Dykes, Jan 30, 2008
    #7
  8. Alfred Molon

    Ali Guest

    Maybe I am wrong, but there is no substance to this press release.

    They have only announced the development of the 25mp full frame sensor.
    There is no physical product yet.



    "Alfred Molon" <> wrote in message
    news:...

    > http://news.sel.sony.com/en/press_room/corporate_news/release/33192.html
    >
    > What lens would you need for a beast like this? Probably something
    > better than a 100 Euro kit lens, right?
     
    Ali, Jan 30, 2008
    #8
  9. Alfred Molon

    Alfred Molon Guest

    In article <fnqr78$rds$>, Al Dykes says...

    > I was looking at the 6 frames/sec capability. With 3 bytes/pixel,
    > that's 450M Bytes/Sec sustained transfer rate and/or a Gigabyte of RAM
    > in-camera to buffer a burst of two seconds.


    More likely it's 12 or 14 bit/pixel, not 24 bit.
    --

    Alfred Molon
    ------------------------------
    Olympus 50X0, 8080, E3X0, E4X0, E5X0 and E3 forum at
    http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/MyOlympus/
    http://myolympus.org/ photo sharing site
     
    Alfred Molon, Jan 30, 2008
    #9
  10. Alfred Molon

    frederick Guest

    Ali wrote:
    > Maybe I am wrong, but there is no substance to this press release.
    >
    > They have only announced the development of the 25mp full frame sensor.
    > There is no physical product yet.
    >

    Then it could be a good relief to them, if their engineers/designers
    ever bother to read ng, that a full-frame chip, intended for high-end
    cameras, should have at least 14 bit d/a converter, not 12 bit as in
    their press release. They can now go back and get it right. All new
    high end cameras from Canon and Nikon have 14 bit.
     
    frederick, Jan 30, 2008
    #10
  11. Alfred Molon

    Alfred Molon Guest

    In article <>, Cynicor
    says...

    > Forget that, how many hard drives would you need for a day's shooting?


    Already now RAW+JPEG files of my Sony R1 have a size of 23MB. Assuming
    Sony compresses (losslessly) the RAW files, RAW files should average
    25MB. Not much of a difference for my current situation.
    --

    Alfred Molon
    ------------------------------
    Olympus 50X0, 8080, E3X0, E4X0, E5X0 and E3 forum at
    http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/MyOlympus/
    http://myolympus.org/ photo sharing site
     
    Alfred Molon, Jan 30, 2008
    #11
  12. Alfred Molon

    Alfred Molon Guest

    In article <>, ray says...

    > Since the sensor seems to be the same size as a 35mm frame, I would
    > assume that standard 35mm lenses should be adequate.


    I have doubts about that. You'll likely need some high quality lens,
    capable of corner to corner sharpness.
    --

    Alfred Molon
    ------------------------------
    Olympus 50X0, 8080, E3X0, E4X0, E5X0 and E3 forum at
    http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/MyOlympus/
    http://myolympus.org/ photo sharing site
     
    Alfred Molon, Jan 30, 2008
    #12
  13. On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 16:22:12 -0500, Cynicor <> wrote:
    > Alfred Molon wrote:
    >> http://news.sel.sony.com/en/press_room/corporate_news/release/33192.html
    >>
    >> What lens would you need for a beast like this? Probably something
    >> better than a 100 Euro kit lens, right?

    >
    > Forget that, how many hard drives would you need for a day's shooting?


    There was a mention somewhere that it used a 12-bit digitizer, so that's
    roughly 36 megabytes per uncompressed RAW image. Figure just over 200
    images per 8 gig card. With flash cards getting ever larer, and terabyte
    hard drives easily available, storage shouldn't be a major issue. Not
    compared to the cost of the camera, anyway.

    -dms
     
    Daniel Silevitch, Jan 30, 2008
    #13
  14. Alfred Molon wrote:
    > In article <fnqr78$rds$>, Al Dykes says...
    >
    >> I was looking at the 6 frames/sec capability. With 3 bytes/pixel,
    >> that's 450M Bytes/Sec sustained transfer rate and/or a Gigabyte of RAM
    >> in-camera to buffer a burst of two seconds.

    >
    > More likely it's 12 or 14 bit/pixel, not 24 bit.


    I think you may mean 12 or 14 bits per channel, so 36 or 42 bits per pixel.

    --
    - Michael J. Astrauskas
     
    Michael J. Astrauskas, Jan 31, 2008
    #14
  15. Alfred Molon

    Paul Furman Guest

    frederick wrote:
    > Ali wrote:
    >> Maybe I am wrong, but there is no substance to this press release.
    >>
    >> They have only announced the development of the 25mp full frame
    >> sensor. There is no physical product yet.
    >>

    > Then it could be a good relief to them, if their engineers/designers
    > ever bother to read ng, that a full-frame chip, intended for high-end
    > cameras, should have at least 14 bit d/a converter, not 12 bit as in
    > their press release. They can now go back and get it right. All new
    > high end cameras from Canon and Nikon have 14 bit.


    "Sony’s “Column-Parallel A/D Conversion Technique†also provides each
    column within the sensor with its own A/D converter, minimizing image
    degradation caused by the noise that arises during analog processing
    while at the same time delivering an extremely high signal conversion
    speed."

    but this quote sounds like it's more of a marketing hype move and may
    not materialize:

    "In recent years, the demand for digital SLR cameras featuring high
    resolution and wide graduation ranges capable of capturing every detail
    of the subject matter has continued to increase, particularly among
    high-end amateur users."

    There isn't much of an amateur market for $7,000 cameras, maybe for
    $2,500 cameras made by companies "capable of making $7,000 cameras".
     
    Paul Furman, Jan 31, 2008
    #15
  16. Alfred Molon

    frederick Guest

    Paul Furman wrote:
    > frederick wrote:
    >> Ali wrote:
    >>> Maybe I am wrong, but there is no substance to this press release.
    >>>
    >>> They have only announced the development of the 25mp full frame
    >>> sensor. There is no physical product yet.
    >>>

    >> Then it could be a good relief to them, if their engineers/designers
    >> ever bother to read ng, that a full-frame chip, intended for high-end
    >> cameras, should have at least 14 bit d/a converter, not 12 bit as in
    >> their press release. They can now go back and get it right. All new
    >> high end cameras from Canon and Nikon have 14 bit.

    >
    > "Sony’s “Column-Parallel A/D Conversion Technique†also provides each
    > column within the sensor with its own A/D converter, minimizing image
    > degradation caused by the noise that arises during analog processing
    > while at the same time delivering an extremely high signal conversion
    > speed."
    >
    > but this quote sounds like it's more of a marketing hype move and may
    > not materialize:
    >
    > "In recent years, the demand for digital SLR cameras featuring high
    > resolution and wide graduation ranges capable of capturing every detail
    > of the subject matter has continued to increase, particularly among
    > high-end amateur users."
    >
    > There isn't much of an amateur market for $7,000 cameras, maybe for
    > $2,500 cameras made by companies "capable of making $7,000 cameras".


    For $2500, a "5d equivalent" from Nikon will do - please.
     
    frederick, Jan 31, 2008
    #16
  17. Alfred Molon

    ray Guest

    On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 23:42:19 +0100, Alfred Molon wrote:

    > In article <>, ray says...
    >
    >> Since the sensor seems to be the same size as a 35mm frame, I would
    >> assume that standard 35mm lenses should be adequate.

    >
    > I have doubts about that. You'll likely need some high quality lens,
    > capable of corner to corner sharpness.


    Could you explain why you'd need it more there than with 35mm film - when
    the sensor is the same size?
     
    ray, Jan 31, 2008
    #17
  18. "Michael J. Astrauskas" <> wrote in message
    news:VU8oj.32445$...
    > Alfred Molon wrote:
    >> In article <fnqr78$rds$>, Al Dykes says...
    >>
    >>> I was looking at the 6 frames/sec capability. With 3 bytes/pixel,
    >>> that's 450M Bytes/Sec sustained transfer rate and/or a Gigabyte of RAM
    >>> in-camera to buffer a burst of two seconds.

    >>
    >> More likely it's 12 or 14 bit/pixel, not 24 bit.

    >
    > I think you may mean 12 or 14 bits per channel, so 36 or 42 bits per
    > pixel.


    All you have to buffer is the raw data, so it's only 12 or 14 bits per
    pixel.

    This is where 3-color perpixel sensors are problematic: the raw files are
    three times larger.

    David J. Littleboy
    Tokyo, Japan
     
    David J. Littleboy, Jan 31, 2008
    #18
  19. "ray" <> wrote:
    > On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 23:42:19 +0100, Alfred Molon wrote:
    >
    >> In article <>, ray says...
    >>
    >>> Since the sensor seems to be the same size as a 35mm frame, I would
    >>> assume that standard 35mm lenses should be adequate.

    >>
    >> I have doubts about that. You'll likely need some high quality lens,
    >> capable of corner to corner sharpness.

    >
    > Could you explain why you'd need it more there than with 35mm film - when
    > the sensor is the same size?


    With a 12.7MP FF sensor, when you print at 12x18, the 5D produces images
    that are sharper and more detailed than 35mm film can even dream of. A 24MP
    sensor would be 4000 x 6000 pixels, and you'd like similar quality prints at
    16 x 24. But that's an enormous enlargement from the image projected on the
    sensor, and creating a projected image sharp enough to withstand that
    enlargement is very difficult.

    David J. Littleboy
    Tokyo, Japan
     
    David J. Littleboy, Jan 31, 2008
    #19
  20. "Paul Furman" <> wrote:
    >>>

    >> Then it could be a good relief to them, if their engineers/designers ever
    >> bother to read ng, that a full-frame chip, intended for high-end cameras,
    >> should have at least 14 bit d/a converter, not 12 bit as in their press
    >> release. They can now go back and get it right. All new high end cameras
    >> from Canon and Nikon have 14 bit.

    >
    > "Sony’s “Column-Parallel A/D Conversion Technique” also provides each
    > column within the sensor with its own A/D converter, minimizing image
    > degradation caused by the noise that arises during analog processing while
    > at the same time delivering an extremely high signal conversion speed."
    >
    > but this quote sounds like it's more of a marketing hype move and may not
    > materialize:


    Actually, it's not marketing hype, although it's not quite correct. It turns
    out that separate A/D converters that run at the speeds required in dSLRs
    have analog noise problems, and the 14-bit converters aren't providing any
    better performance than the 12-bit converters. Also, at 12MP FF, there's a
    real need for more than 12 bits, but at 24MP, there isn't; a clean 12-bit
    conversion that provided 10 bits of valid data would be as good as any
    current dSLR. (Or at least that's my understanding of Roger Clark's
    comments.) It's pretty unlikely they could keep the noise under 1 LSB, so 11
    bits of valid data probably isn't possible.

    So, _if it works_, Sony's idea of providing large numbers of much slower A/D
    converters is a very good idea.

    > "In recent years, the demand for digital SLR cameras featuring high
    > resolution and wide graduation ranges capable of capturing every detail of
    > the subject matter has continued to increase, particularly among high-end
    > amateur users."
    >
    > There isn't much of an amateur market for $7,000 cameras, maybe for $2,500
    > cameras made by companies "capable of making $7,000 cameras".


    The 5D is real sweet at ISO 200. Very clean images that can take gross
    amounts of sharpening without a hint of noise appearing. If Sony can provide
    ISO 100 images that are as good or better than 5D ISO 200 images, it'll be
    flipping amazing. (At ISO 200, shot noise would raise its ugly head.)
    Especially if they can persuade Zeiss to re-release the 21/2.8 Distagon.

    David J. Littleboy
    Tokyo, Japan
     
    David J. Littleboy, Jan 31, 2008
    #20
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