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The Demise of the Art of Programming

 
 
Kevin Spencer
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      03-16-2005
Is it just me, or am I really observing a trend away from analysis and
probem-solving amongst programmers? Let me be more specific:

It seems that every day, in greater numbers, people are coming to these
programming newsgroups and asking for ready-made solutions to fairly simple
programming problems. They either want someone to write code for them, or
point them to a ready-made chunk of software that does what they need to do.

Now, I'm all for productivity, and have all the latest and greatest
programming productivity tools. From time to time I do buy third-party
components, such as a managed Zip extractor. Yes, I could build my own Zip
extractor. The WinZip site publishes their algorithms. But it's quite
low-level stuff, and it would take me a week to write my own, whereas I
could buy one for $50.00 and get on to more important things. That seems
reasonable to me. If it is cost that is truly the issue, third-party
components are fine.

On the other hand, third-party components are only as good as their
designers. When you use a third-party component you are creating a form of
external dependency, over which you have little or no control. So, all other
things being equal, I would tend to solve my own problems and build my own
solutions.

But, for example, asking for someone to write a snippet of JavaScript...
well, that's just plain lazy IMHO. In the development tools that Microsoft
manufactures, there are enough tools and technology to build your own
Operating System. It is as if Microsoft has given you every tool you could
possibly need, and enough lumber to build the Hoover Dam, but if you need to
build a dog house, and you've never built one before, by golly, you'll just
go out and buy one. Now, how does that make you a better carpenter? And what
justifies the expense of buying a dog house when you already have all the
tools and lumber to build one? Especially when it would cost you the same
amount of money to build one (in man-hours) as it takes to buy one? At least
if you build it you've enhanced your capabilites somewhat. And if you need
to add air-conditioning to the existing dog house, well, you're all prepared
to do so, since you built it to begin with.

I mean, whatever happened to the ethic that programmers should study their
trade every day with diligence? I know I do. I probably spend an average of
an hour a day studying my trade. Any good developer should, it seems to me.

So, what's up with all this "just give me the codes (and stuff)" attitude?
Is it just me, or does this bother anybody else? Am I way off track here?

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.


 
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=?Utf-8?B?U2NvdHQgU2ltb25z?=
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      03-16-2005
Could you give me the code to come up with a good reply?

Anyways, yeah, I agree. Not that I really answer that many questions, but I
try and leave things out of my answers hoping that people will just google
for the missing information because it would be faster than asking for more
info. It never works.

The really sad thing is that it's not just limited to code-monkeys, a lot of
people are asking high level architecture questions and expecting magic
answers.
 
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Manohar Kamath
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      03-16-2005
My take: As long as there are roads, there will be people to ask for
directions.

Kevin, while I see your point, I guess it is elitist to think of any problem
as small. In my opinion, people ask because they don't have an idea to
continue (whatever the reason maybe -- pressure, lack of education, etc.),
and not because they are lazy.

As per "programming as trade" -- the problem lies in the fact that most
developers now learn their trade on the job. I guess people need to
recognize this trend, and adapt accordingly. If anything, there are
opportunities here -- for authors of books, web sites, etc.

--
Manohar Kamath
Editor, .netWire
www.dotnetwire.com


"Kevin Spencer" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> Is it just me, or am I really observing a trend away from analysis and
> probem-solving amongst programmers? Let me be more specific:
>
> It seems that every day, in greater numbers, people are coming to these
> programming newsgroups and asking for ready-made solutions to fairly

simple
> programming problems. They either want someone to write code for them, or
> point them to a ready-made chunk of software that does what they need to

do.
>
> Now, I'm all for productivity, and have all the latest and greatest
> programming productivity tools. From time to time I do buy third-party
> components, such as a managed Zip extractor. Yes, I could build my own Zip
> extractor. The WinZip site publishes their algorithms. But it's quite
> low-level stuff, and it would take me a week to write my own, whereas I
> could buy one for $50.00 and get on to more important things. That seems
> reasonable to me. If it is cost that is truly the issue, third-party
> components are fine.
>
> On the other hand, third-party components are only as good as their
> designers. When you use a third-party component you are creating a form of
> external dependency, over which you have little or no control. So, all

other
> things being equal, I would tend to solve my own problems and build my own
> solutions.
>
> But, for example, asking for someone to write a snippet of JavaScript...
> well, that's just plain lazy IMHO. In the development tools that Microsoft
> manufactures, there are enough tools and technology to build your own
> Operating System. It is as if Microsoft has given you every tool you could
> possibly need, and enough lumber to build the Hoover Dam, but if you need

to
> build a dog house, and you've never built one before, by golly, you'll

just
> go out and buy one. Now, how does that make you a better carpenter? And

what
> justifies the expense of buying a dog house when you already have all the
> tools and lumber to build one? Especially when it would cost you the same
> amount of money to build one (in man-hours) as it takes to buy one? At

least
> if you build it you've enhanced your capabilites somewhat. And if you need
> to add air-conditioning to the existing dog house, well, you're all

prepared
> to do so, since you built it to begin with.
>
> I mean, whatever happened to the ethic that programmers should study their
> trade every day with diligence? I know I do. I probably spend an average

of
> an hour a day studying my trade. Any good developer should, it seems to

me.
>
> So, what's up with all this "just give me the codes (and stuff)" attitude?
> Is it just me, or does this bother anybody else? Am I way off track here?
>
> --
> HTH,
>
> Kevin Spencer
> Microsoft MVP
> .Net Developer
> What You Seek Is What You Get.
>
>



 
Reply With Quote
 
Kevin Spencer
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      03-16-2005
Hi Manohar,

> Kevin, while I see your point, I guess it is elitist to think of any
> problem
> as small. In my opinion, people ask because they don't have an idea to
> continue (whatever the reason maybe -- pressure, lack of education, etc.),
> and not because they are lazy.


Everyone has problems they haven't encountered before, and everyone needs
help from time to time. What I was describing as "lazy" is the tendancy to
ask for a solution, rather than to ask for direction. Direction is basically
pointing someone in the direction they need to look to solve their problem.
IOW, direction is not solving the problem for the individual, but enabling
the individual to solve their own problem. It seems that there are many more
developers out there looking for ready-made solutions than help in solving
their problems. Take a look at many of the longer-running threads in this
newsgroup, and you should see what I'm talking about. People give
directions, and the person who asks is not satisfied, or doesn't understand.
Instead of probing further for themselves, they come back and continue
prodding until someone gives them a ready-made solution, or writes their
code for them. Afterwards, the original person has their solution, but they
have no understanding of it. And they are no better or more independent as a
result. They have learned nothing. The shame of it is, I get the impression
many don't WANT to learn.

God help me if my career should ever become so - mechanical!

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

"Manohar Kamath" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:%(E-Mail Removed)...
> My take: As long as there are roads, there will be people to ask for
> directions.
>
> Kevin, while I see your point, I guess it is elitist to think of any
> problem
> as small. In my opinion, people ask because they don't have an idea to
> continue (whatever the reason maybe -- pressure, lack of education, etc.),
> and not because they are lazy.
>
> As per "programming as trade" -- the problem lies in the fact that most
> developers now learn their trade on the job. I guess people need to
> recognize this trend, and adapt accordingly. If anything, there are
> opportunities here -- for authors of books, web sites, etc.
>
> --
> Manohar Kamath
> Editor, .netWire
> www.dotnetwire.com
>
>
> "Kevin Spencer" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>> Is it just me, or am I really observing a trend away from analysis and
>> probem-solving amongst programmers? Let me be more specific:
>>
>> It seems that every day, in greater numbers, people are coming to these
>> programming newsgroups and asking for ready-made solutions to fairly

> simple
>> programming problems. They either want someone to write code for them, or
>> point them to a ready-made chunk of software that does what they need to

> do.
>>
>> Now, I'm all for productivity, and have all the latest and greatest
>> programming productivity tools. From time to time I do buy third-party
>> components, such as a managed Zip extractor. Yes, I could build my own
>> Zip
>> extractor. The WinZip site publishes their algorithms. But it's quite
>> low-level stuff, and it would take me a week to write my own, whereas I
>> could buy one for $50.00 and get on to more important things. That seems
>> reasonable to me. If it is cost that is truly the issue, third-party
>> components are fine.
>>
>> On the other hand, third-party components are only as good as their
>> designers. When you use a third-party component you are creating a form
>> of
>> external dependency, over which you have little or no control. So, all

> other
>> things being equal, I would tend to solve my own problems and build my
>> own
>> solutions.
>>
>> But, for example, asking for someone to write a snippet of JavaScript...
>> well, that's just plain lazy IMHO. In the development tools that
>> Microsoft
>> manufactures, there are enough tools and technology to build your own
>> Operating System. It is as if Microsoft has given you every tool you
>> could
>> possibly need, and enough lumber to build the Hoover Dam, but if you need

> to
>> build a dog house, and you've never built one before, by golly, you'll

> just
>> go out and buy one. Now, how does that make you a better carpenter? And

> what
>> justifies the expense of buying a dog house when you already have all the
>> tools and lumber to build one? Especially when it would cost you the same
>> amount of money to build one (in man-hours) as it takes to buy one? At

> least
>> if you build it you've enhanced your capabilites somewhat. And if you
>> need
>> to add air-conditioning to the existing dog house, well, you're all

> prepared
>> to do so, since you built it to begin with.
>>
>> I mean, whatever happened to the ethic that programmers should study
>> their
>> trade every day with diligence? I know I do. I probably spend an average

> of
>> an hour a day studying my trade. Any good developer should, it seems to

> me.
>>
>> So, what's up with all this "just give me the codes (and stuff)"
>> attitude?
>> Is it just me, or does this bother anybody else? Am I way off track here?
>>
>> --
>> HTH,
>>
>> Kevin Spencer
>> Microsoft MVP
>> .Net Developer
>> What You Seek Is What You Get.
>>
>>

>
>



 
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Matt Berther
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      03-16-2005
Hello Kevin,

Very well said.

As with anything, it has to do with the level that the "bar" is at. People
generally tend to reach only as high as that bar is set. In order to build
and grow teams, that bar has to be constantly raised, forcing the individual
to either 1) do what it takes to keep up or 2) leave the organization.

Few people tend to constantly exceed the bar, however those that do are among
the best in the business. They are this way because they take it upon themselves
to learn and improve themselves. As long as people are content to just draw
a paycheck and not further themselves or their craft, we will continue to
see the problem you describe.

--
Matt Berther
http://www.mattberther.com

> Is it just me, or am I really observing a trend away from analysis and
> probem-solving amongst programmers? Let me be more specific:
>
> It seems that every day, in greater numbers, people are coming to
> these programming newsgroups and asking for ready-made solutions to
> fairly simple programming problems. They either want someone to write
> code for them, or point them to a ready-made chunk of software that
> does what they need to do.
>
> Now, I'm all for productivity, and have all the latest and greatest
> programming productivity tools. From time to time I do buy third-party
> components, such as a managed Zip extractor. Yes, I could build my own
> Zip extractor. The WinZip site publishes their algorithms. But it's
> quite low-level stuff, and it would take me a week to write my own,
> whereas I could buy one for $50.00 and get on to more important
> things. That seems reasonable to me. If it is cost that is truly the
> issue, third-party components are fine.
>
> On the other hand, third-party components are only as good as their
> designers. When you use a third-party component you are creating a
> form of external dependency, over which you have little or no control.
> So, all other things being equal, I would tend to solve my own
> problems and build my own solutions.
>
> But, for example, asking for someone to write a snippet of
> JavaScript... well, that's just plain lazy IMHO. In the development
> tools that Microsoft manufactures, there are enough tools and
> technology to build your own Operating System. It is as if Microsoft
> has given you every tool you could possibly need, and enough lumber to
> build the Hoover Dam, but if you need to build a dog house, and you've
> never built one before, by golly, you'll just go out and buy one. Now,
> how does that make you a better carpenter? And what justifies the
> expense of buying a dog house when you already have all the tools and
> lumber to build one? Especially when it would cost you the same amount
> of money to build one (in man-hours) as it takes to buy one? At least
> if you build it you've enhanced your capabilites somewhat. And if you
> need to add air-conditioning to the existing dog house, well, you're
> all prepared to do so, since you built it to begin with.
>
> I mean, whatever happened to the ethic that programmers should study
> their trade every day with diligence? I know I do. I probably spend an
> average of an hour a day studying my trade. Any good developer should,
> it seems to me.
>
> So, what's up with all this "just give me the codes (and stuff)"
> attitude? Is it just me, or does this bother anybody else? Am I way
> off track here?
>
> Kevin Spencer
> Microsoft MVP
> .Net Developer
> What You Seek Is What You Get.




 
Reply With Quote
 
Karl Seguin
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      03-16-2005
We both spend enough time in here to know that a lot of what you say is
true. Sometimes it's a real downer, sometimes it seems like just a few bad
apples spoiling it for the rest...I'm sure the number of people I've helped
once (and only once) in this newsgroup exceeds the number of people I've
helped more than once. For me, this implies that most people are giving it
an honest go, which (for now) is enough for me to keep helping out. Maybe i
haven't been around long enough, but I imagine this has always been true:
some people are "lazy", some aren't. I don't think there are more lazy
programmes today than there were 5 years ago....and if there are, I wonder
if .Net's harsh learning curve has anything to do with it...

--
MY ASP.Net tutorials
http://www.openmymind.net/ - New and Improved (yes, the popup is
annoying)
http://www.openmymind.net/faq.aspx - unofficial newsgroup FAQ (more to
come!)
"Kevin Spencer" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> Is it just me, or am I really observing a trend away from analysis and
> probem-solving amongst programmers? Let me be more specific:
>
> It seems that every day, in greater numbers, people are coming to these
> programming newsgroups and asking for ready-made solutions to fairly

simple
> programming problems. They either want someone to write code for them, or
> point them to a ready-made chunk of software that does what they need to

do.
>
> Now, I'm all for productivity, and have all the latest and greatest
> programming productivity tools. From time to time I do buy third-party
> components, such as a managed Zip extractor. Yes, I could build my own Zip
> extractor. The WinZip site publishes their algorithms. But it's quite
> low-level stuff, and it would take me a week to write my own, whereas I
> could buy one for $50.00 and get on to more important things. That seems
> reasonable to me. If it is cost that is truly the issue, third-party
> components are fine.
>
> On the other hand, third-party components are only as good as their
> designers. When you use a third-party component you are creating a form of
> external dependency, over which you have little or no control. So, all

other
> things being equal, I would tend to solve my own problems and build my own
> solutions.
>
> But, for example, asking for someone to write a snippet of JavaScript...
> well, that's just plain lazy IMHO. In the development tools that Microsoft
> manufactures, there are enough tools and technology to build your own
> Operating System. It is as if Microsoft has given you every tool you could
> possibly need, and enough lumber to build the Hoover Dam, but if you need

to
> build a dog house, and you've never built one before, by golly, you'll

just
> go out and buy one. Now, how does that make you a better carpenter? And

what
> justifies the expense of buying a dog house when you already have all the
> tools and lumber to build one? Especially when it would cost you the same
> amount of money to build one (in man-hours) as it takes to buy one? At

least
> if you build it you've enhanced your capabilites somewhat. And if you need
> to add air-conditioning to the existing dog house, well, you're all

prepared
> to do so, since you built it to begin with.
>
> I mean, whatever happened to the ethic that programmers should study their
> trade every day with diligence? I know I do. I probably spend an average

of
> an hour a day studying my trade. Any good developer should, it seems to

me.
>
> So, what's up with all this "just give me the codes (and stuff)" attitude?
> Is it just me, or does this bother anybody else? Am I way off track here?
>
> --
> HTH,
>
> Kevin Spencer
> Microsoft MVP
> .Net Developer
> What You Seek Is What You Get.
>
>



 
Reply With Quote
 
Juan T. Llibre
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      03-16-2005
re:
>What I was describing as "lazy" is the tendancy to ask for a solution,
>rather than to ask for direction.


That is a direct result of the way these public newsgroups
have bee defined : as a place to get solutions from peers.

"Getting solutions" is interpreted as "hand me
ready-made solutions to the questions I'm asking".

That means asking for code, instead of guidance.

How many times have you seen questions like :

"I want to do the same thing Hotmail does. Send me the code."

My approach :
If it's a simple thing requested, I'll provide sample code.

If understanding the question's anser entails more than that,
pointing the way to online articles which present solutions
to the question will do.

If the question goes beyond what a post can provide,
or an article can provide, I'll point the way to online
documentation or books.

We should strive to have the poster of a question *understand*
why the solution works as it does, instead of just mechanically
cutting and pasting from the sample to his/her code.

And, speaking of his/her, where are the lady programmers ?
I don't think I've seen too many posts by women here.

That's something else we should be concerned with.





Juan T. Llibre
ASP.NET MVP
http://asp.net.do/foros/
Foros de ASP.NET en Espaņol
Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET...
======================

"Kevin Spencer" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> Hi Manohar,
>
>> Kevin, while I see your point, I guess it is elitist to think of any
>> problem
>> as small. In my opinion, people ask because they don't have an idea to
>> continue (whatever the reason maybe -- pressure, lack of education,
>> etc.),
>> and not because they are lazy.

>
> Everyone has problems they haven't encountered before, and everyone needs
> help from time to time. What I was describing as "lazy" is the tendancy to
> ask for a solution, rather than to ask for direction. Direction is
> basically pointing someone in the direction they need to look to solve
> their problem. IOW, direction is not solving the problem for the
> individual, but enabling the individual to solve their own problem. It
> seems that there are many more developers out there looking for ready-made
> solutions than help in solving their problems. Take a look at many of the
> longer-running threads in this newsgroup, and you should see what I'm
> talking about. People give directions, and the person who asks is not
> satisfied, or doesn't understand. Instead of probing further for
> themselves, they come back and continue prodding until someone gives them
> a ready-made solution, or writes their code for them. Afterwards, the
> original person has their solution, but they have no understanding of it.
> And they are no better or more independent as a result. They have learned
> nothing. The shame of it is, I get the impression many don't WANT to
> learn.
>
> God help me if my career should ever become so - mechanical!
>
> --
> HTH,
>
> Kevin Spencer
> Microsoft MVP
> .Net Developer
> What You Seek Is What You Get.
>
> "Manohar Kamath" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:%(E-Mail Removed)...
>> My take: As long as there are roads, there will be people to ask for
>> directions.
>>
>> Kevin, while I see your point, I guess it is elitist to think of any
>> problem
>> as small. In my opinion, people ask because they don't have an idea to
>> continue (whatever the reason maybe -- pressure, lack of education,
>> etc.),
>> and not because they are lazy.
>>
>> As per "programming as trade" -- the problem lies in the fact that most
>> developers now learn their trade on the job. I guess people need to
>> recognize this trend, and adapt accordingly. If anything, there are
>> opportunities here -- for authors of books, web sites, etc.
>>
>> --
>> Manohar Kamath
>> Editor, .netWire
>> www.dotnetwire.com
>>
>>
>> "Kevin Spencer" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>> news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>>> Is it just me, or am I really observing a trend away from analysis and
>>> probem-solving amongst programmers? Let me be more specific:
>>>
>>> It seems that every day, in greater numbers, people are coming to these
>>> programming newsgroups and asking for ready-made solutions to fairly

>> simple
>>> programming problems. They either want someone to write code for them,
>>> or
>>> point them to a ready-made chunk of software that does what they need to

>> do.
>>>
>>> Now, I'm all for productivity, and have all the latest and greatest
>>> programming productivity tools. From time to time I do buy third-party
>>> components, such as a managed Zip extractor. Yes, I could build my own
>>> Zip
>>> extractor. The WinZip site publishes their algorithms. But it's quite
>>> low-level stuff, and it would take me a week to write my own, whereas I
>>> could buy one for $50.00 and get on to more important things. That seems
>>> reasonable to me. If it is cost that is truly the issue, third-party
>>> components are fine.
>>>
>>> On the other hand, third-party components are only as good as their
>>> designers. When you use a third-party component you are creating a form
>>> of
>>> external dependency, over which you have little or no control. So, all

>> other
>>> things being equal, I would tend to solve my own problems and build my
>>> own
>>> solutions.
>>>
>>> But, for example, asking for someone to write a snippet of JavaScript...
>>> well, that's just plain lazy IMHO. In the development tools that
>>> Microsoft
>>> manufactures, there are enough tools and technology to build your own
>>> Operating System. It is as if Microsoft has given you every tool you
>>> could
>>> possibly need, and enough lumber to build the Hoover Dam, but if you
>>> need

>> to
>>> build a dog house, and you've never built one before, by golly, you'll

>> just
>>> go out and buy one. Now, how does that make you a better carpenter? And

>> what
>>> justifies the expense of buying a dog house when you already have all
>>> the
>>> tools and lumber to build one? Especially when it would cost you the
>>> same
>>> amount of money to build one (in man-hours) as it takes to buy one? At

>> least
>>> if you build it you've enhanced your capabilites somewhat. And if you
>>> need
>>> to add air-conditioning to the existing dog house, well, you're all

>> prepared
>>> to do so, since you built it to begin with.
>>>
>>> I mean, whatever happened to the ethic that programmers should study
>>> their
>>> trade every day with diligence? I know I do. I probably spend an average

>> of
>>> an hour a day studying my trade. Any good developer should, it seems to

>> me.
>>>
>>> So, what's up with all this "just give me the codes (and stuff)"
>>> attitude?
>>> Is it just me, or does this bother anybody else? Am I way off track
>>> here?
>>>
>>> --
>>> HTH,
>>>
>>> Kevin Spencer
>>> Microsoft MVP
>>> .Net Developer
>>> What You Seek Is What You Get.
>>>
>>>

>>
>>

>
>



 
Reply With Quote
 
Kevin Spencer
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      03-16-2005
Hi Juan,

> "Getting solutions" is interpreted as "hand me
> ready-made solutions to the questions I'm asking".
>
> That means asking for code, instead of guidance.


That might be true of newsgroups for Windows, Office, or other end-user
software. Who would expect an end-user to understand or care how their
software works? My wife doesn't understand how a car works, but she can
drive one as well as anyone. On the other hand, the engineers who build cars
ought to know both how and why everything in the car works. I'm sure you
wouldn't want to drive in one that was engineereed by someone without
knowledge of what he/she was doing, right?

A programmer is a technician. Therefore, a programmer ought to know how
their software works. And if so, they should not need anything more than a
little guidance, a shove in the right direction, etc. I certainly don't want
or expect more than that when I have a new issue to solve.

> We should strive to have the poster of a question *understand*
> why the solution works as it does, instead of just mechanically
> cutting and pasting from the sample to his/her code.


Absolutely!

> And, speaking of his/her, where are the lady programmers ?
> I don't think I've seen too many posts by women here.
>
> That's something else we should be concerned with.


That I can't agree with. For one thing, I'm not a woman. So, it's none of my
business what a given woman decides to do with her life. Beyond that, it's
none of my business what ANYONE decides to do with his/her life (except for
my children, and only up to a point). I have known a few female programmers.
The fact that few women decide to become programmers is not relevant, except
to them. I have enough responsibility figuring out what I should do next!

Who knows? Maybe that professor at Harvard had something...

--
Maybe not,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

"Juan T. Llibre" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:%(E-Mail Removed)...
> re:
>>What I was describing as "lazy" is the tendancy to ask for a solution,
>>rather than to ask for direction.

>
> That is a direct result of the way these public newsgroups
> have bee defined : as a place to get solutions from peers.
>
> "Getting solutions" is interpreted as "hand me
> ready-made solutions to the questions I'm asking".
>
> That means asking for code, instead of guidance.
>
> How many times have you seen questions like :
>
> "I want to do the same thing Hotmail does. Send me the code."
>
> My approach :
> If it's a simple thing requested, I'll provide sample code.
>
> If understanding the question's anser entails more than that,
> pointing the way to online articles which present solutions
> to the question will do.
>
> If the question goes beyond what a post can provide,
> or an article can provide, I'll point the way to online
> documentation or books.
>
> We should strive to have the poster of a question *understand*
> why the solution works as it does, instead of just mechanically
> cutting and pasting from the sample to his/her code.
>
> And, speaking of his/her, where are the lady programmers ?
> I don't think I've seen too many posts by women here.
>
> That's something else we should be concerned with.
>
>
>
>
>
> Juan T. Llibre
> ASP.NET MVP
> http://asp.net.do/foros/
> Foros de ASP.NET en Espaņol
> Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET...
> ======================
>
> "Kevin Spencer" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>> Hi Manohar,
>>
>>> Kevin, while I see your point, I guess it is elitist to think of any
>>> problem
>>> as small. In my opinion, people ask because they don't have an idea to
>>> continue (whatever the reason maybe -- pressure, lack of education,
>>> etc.),
>>> and not because they are lazy.

>>
>> Everyone has problems they haven't encountered before, and everyone needs
>> help from time to time. What I was describing as "lazy" is the tendancy
>> to ask for a solution, rather than to ask for direction. Direction is
>> basically pointing someone in the direction they need to look to solve
>> their problem. IOW, direction is not solving the problem for the
>> individual, but enabling the individual to solve their own problem. It
>> seems that there are many more developers out there looking for
>> ready-made solutions than help in solving their problems. Take a look at
>> many of the longer-running threads in this newsgroup, and you should see
>> what I'm talking about. People give directions, and the person who asks
>> is not satisfied, or doesn't understand. Instead of probing further for
>> themselves, they come back and continue prodding until someone gives them
>> a ready-made solution, or writes their code for them. Afterwards, the
>> original person has their solution, but they have no understanding of it.
>> And they are no better or more independent as a result. They have learned
>> nothing. The shame of it is, I get the impression many don't WANT to
>> learn.
>>
>> God help me if my career should ever become so - mechanical!
>>
>> --
>> HTH,
>>
>> Kevin Spencer
>> Microsoft MVP
>> .Net Developer
>> What You Seek Is What You Get.
>>
>> "Manohar Kamath" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>> news:%(E-Mail Removed)...
>>> My take: As long as there are roads, there will be people to ask for
>>> directions.
>>>
>>> Kevin, while I see your point, I guess it is elitist to think of any
>>> problem
>>> as small. In my opinion, people ask because they don't have an idea to
>>> continue (whatever the reason maybe -- pressure, lack of education,
>>> etc.),
>>> and not because they are lazy.
>>>
>>> As per "programming as trade" -- the problem lies in the fact that most
>>> developers now learn their trade on the job. I guess people need to
>>> recognize this trend, and adapt accordingly. If anything, there are
>>> opportunities here -- for authors of books, web sites, etc.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Manohar Kamath
>>> Editor, .netWire
>>> www.dotnetwire.com
>>>
>>>
>>> "Kevin Spencer" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>>> news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>>>> Is it just me, or am I really observing a trend away from analysis and
>>>> probem-solving amongst programmers? Let me be more specific:
>>>>
>>>> It seems that every day, in greater numbers, people are coming to these
>>>> programming newsgroups and asking for ready-made solutions to fairly
>>> simple
>>>> programming problems. They either want someone to write code for them,
>>>> or
>>>> point them to a ready-made chunk of software that does what they need
>>>> to
>>> do.
>>>>
>>>> Now, I'm all for productivity, and have all the latest and greatest
>>>> programming productivity tools. From time to time I do buy third-party
>>>> components, such as a managed Zip extractor. Yes, I could build my own
>>>> Zip
>>>> extractor. The WinZip site publishes their algorithms. But it's quite
>>>> low-level stuff, and it would take me a week to write my own, whereas I
>>>> could buy one for $50.00 and get on to more important things. That
>>>> seems
>>>> reasonable to me. If it is cost that is truly the issue, third-party
>>>> components are fine.
>>>>
>>>> On the other hand, third-party components are only as good as their
>>>> designers. When you use a third-party component you are creating a form
>>>> of
>>>> external dependency, over which you have little or no control. So, all
>>> other
>>>> things being equal, I would tend to solve my own problems and build my
>>>> own
>>>> solutions.
>>>>
>>>> But, for example, asking for someone to write a snippet of
>>>> JavaScript...
>>>> well, that's just plain lazy IMHO. In the development tools that
>>>> Microsoft
>>>> manufactures, there are enough tools and technology to build your own
>>>> Operating System. It is as if Microsoft has given you every tool you
>>>> could
>>>> possibly need, and enough lumber to build the Hoover Dam, but if you
>>>> need
>>> to
>>>> build a dog house, and you've never built one before, by golly, you'll
>>> just
>>>> go out and buy one. Now, how does that make you a better carpenter? And
>>> what
>>>> justifies the expense of buying a dog house when you already have all
>>>> the
>>>> tools and lumber to build one? Especially when it would cost you the
>>>> same
>>>> amount of money to build one (in man-hours) as it takes to buy one? At
>>> least
>>>> if you build it you've enhanced your capabilites somewhat. And if you
>>>> need
>>>> to add air-conditioning to the existing dog house, well, you're all
>>> prepared
>>>> to do so, since you built it to begin with.
>>>>
>>>> I mean, whatever happened to the ethic that programmers should study
>>>> their
>>>> trade every day with diligence? I know I do. I probably spend an
>>>> average
>>> of
>>>> an hour a day studying my trade. Any good developer should, it seems to
>>> me.
>>>>
>>>> So, what's up with all this "just give me the codes (and stuff)"
>>>> attitude?
>>>> Is it just me, or does this bother anybody else? Am I way off track
>>>> here?
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> HTH,
>>>>
>>>> Kevin Spencer
>>>> Microsoft MVP
>>>> .Net Developer
>>>> What You Seek Is What You Get.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>

>>
>>

>
>



 
Reply With Quote
 
Kevin Spencer
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      03-16-2005
Hi Karl,

> I don't think there are more lazy
> programmes today than there were 5 years ago....and if there are, I wonder
> if .Net's harsh learning curve has anything to do with it...


Interesting observation! I have been fostering high hopes that .Net's harsh
learning curve might turn some of these shade-tree programmers into the real
thing! But of course, only time will tell.

For anyone that thinks I'm being somehow "elitist," you should realize that
much of my frustration comes not from answering questions in newsgroups, but
also from personal experience. I have had to work a few too many times with
legacy code that was nightmarishly bad. About the best that could be said
for it was that it did accomplish its requirements. On the other hand, it
was poorly written, slow, full of hacks, and completely inextensible as it
stood. Unfortunately, programming is one of those businesses where you DO
get what you pay for, in terms of talent. If you hire cheap talent, it will
cost you much more in the long run.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

"Karl Seguin" <karl REMOVE @ REMOVE openmymind REMOVEMETOO . ANDME net>
wrote in message news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> We both spend enough time in here to know that a lot of what you say is
> true. Sometimes it's a real downer, sometimes it seems like just a few
> bad
> apples spoiling it for the rest...I'm sure the number of people I've
> helped
> once (and only once) in this newsgroup exceeds the number of people I've
> helped more than once. For me, this implies that most people are giving
> it
> an honest go, which (for now) is enough for me to keep helping out. Maybe
> i
> haven't been around long enough, but I imagine this has always been true:
> some people are "lazy", some aren't. I don't think there are more lazy
> programmes today than there were 5 years ago....and if there are, I wonder
> if .Net's harsh learning curve has anything to do with it...
>
> --
> MY ASP.Net tutorials
> http://www.openmymind.net/ - New and Improved (yes, the popup is
> annoying)
> http://www.openmymind.net/faq.aspx - unofficial newsgroup FAQ (more to
> come!)
> "Kevin Spencer" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>> Is it just me, or am I really observing a trend away from analysis and
>> probem-solving amongst programmers? Let me be more specific:
>>
>> It seems that every day, in greater numbers, people are coming to these
>> programming newsgroups and asking for ready-made solutions to fairly

> simple
>> programming problems. They either want someone to write code for them, or
>> point them to a ready-made chunk of software that does what they need to

> do.
>>
>> Now, I'm all for productivity, and have all the latest and greatest
>> programming productivity tools. From time to time I do buy third-party
>> components, such as a managed Zip extractor. Yes, I could build my own
>> Zip
>> extractor. The WinZip site publishes their algorithms. But it's quite
>> low-level stuff, and it would take me a week to write my own, whereas I
>> could buy one for $50.00 and get on to more important things. That seems
>> reasonable to me. If it is cost that is truly the issue, third-party
>> components are fine.
>>
>> On the other hand, third-party components are only as good as their
>> designers. When you use a third-party component you are creating a form
>> of
>> external dependency, over which you have little or no control. So, all

> other
>> things being equal, I would tend to solve my own problems and build my
>> own
>> solutions.
>>
>> But, for example, asking for someone to write a snippet of JavaScript...
>> well, that's just plain lazy IMHO. In the development tools that
>> Microsoft
>> manufactures, there are enough tools and technology to build your own
>> Operating System. It is as if Microsoft has given you every tool you
>> could
>> possibly need, and enough lumber to build the Hoover Dam, but if you need

> to
>> build a dog house, and you've never built one before, by golly, you'll

> just
>> go out and buy one. Now, how does that make you a better carpenter? And

> what
>> justifies the expense of buying a dog house when you already have all the
>> tools and lumber to build one? Especially when it would cost you the same
>> amount of money to build one (in man-hours) as it takes to buy one? At

> least
>> if you build it you've enhanced your capabilites somewhat. And if you
>> need
>> to add air-conditioning to the existing dog house, well, you're all

> prepared
>> to do so, since you built it to begin with.
>>
>> I mean, whatever happened to the ethic that programmers should study
>> their
>> trade every day with diligence? I know I do. I probably spend an average

> of
>> an hour a day studying my trade. Any good developer should, it seems to

> me.
>>
>> So, what's up with all this "just give me the codes (and stuff)"
>> attitude?
>> Is it just me, or does this bother anybody else? Am I way off track here?
>>
>> --
>> HTH,
>>
>> Kevin Spencer
>> Microsoft MVP
>> .Net Developer
>> What You Seek Is What You Get.
>>
>>

>
>



 
Reply With Quote
 
Karl Seguin
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      03-16-2005
Kevin,
I absolutely 100% agree with you. My frustration is equal to yours, but not
because I have to maintain crappy legacy code, instead because I'm trying to
write brand new code in ASP.Net with people who just don't know fundamental
programming techniques. ASP and ASP.net are so different it's a painful
joke. The last 3 years of my life I've been dealing with people who just
can't make the transition. I've also had the pleasure to work with truly
exceptional programmers, but for the most part we are outnumbered

I've been hoping that .Net's harsh learning cuve might turn some of the
shade-tree programmers onto different career paths I help here because I
believe that many of the people asking are truly interested in becoming the
"real thing"

Karl

--
MY ASP.Net tutorials
http://www.openmymind.net/ - New and Improved (yes, the popup is
annoying)
http://www.openmymind.net/faq.aspx - unofficial newsgroup FAQ (more to
come!)
"Kevin Spencer" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:%(E-Mail Removed)...
> Hi Karl,
>
> > I don't think there are more lazy
> > programmes today than there were 5 years ago....and if there are, I

wonder
> > if .Net's harsh learning curve has anything to do with it...

>
> Interesting observation! I have been fostering high hopes that .Net's

harsh
> learning curve might turn some of these shade-tree programmers into the

real
> thing! But of course, only time will tell.
>
> For anyone that thinks I'm being somehow "elitist," you should realize

that
> much of my frustration comes not from answering questions in newsgroups,

but
> also from personal experience. I have had to work a few too many times

with
> legacy code that was nightmarishly bad. About the best that could be said
> for it was that it did accomplish its requirements. On the other hand, it
> was poorly written, slow, full of hacks, and completely inextensible as it
> stood. Unfortunately, programming is one of those businesses where you DO
> get what you pay for, in terms of talent. If you hire cheap talent, it

will
> cost you much more in the long run.
>
> --
> HTH,
>
> Kevin Spencer
> Microsoft MVP
> .Net Developer
> What You Seek Is What You Get.
>
> "Karl Seguin" <karl REMOVE @ REMOVE openmymind REMOVEMETOO . ANDME net>
> wrote in message news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> > We both spend enough time in here to know that a lot of what you say is
> > true. Sometimes it's a real downer, sometimes it seems like just a few
> > bad
> > apples spoiling it for the rest...I'm sure the number of people I've
> > helped
> > once (and only once) in this newsgroup exceeds the number of people I've
> > helped more than once. For me, this implies that most people are giving
> > it
> > an honest go, which (for now) is enough for me to keep helping out.

Maybe
> > i
> > haven't been around long enough, but I imagine this has always been

true:
> > some people are "lazy", some aren't. I don't think there are more lazy
> > programmes today than there were 5 years ago....and if there are, I

wonder
> > if .Net's harsh learning curve has anything to do with it...
> >
> > --
> > MY ASP.Net tutorials
> > http://www.openmymind.net/ - New and Improved (yes, the popup is
> > annoying)
> > http://www.openmymind.net/faq.aspx - unofficial newsgroup FAQ (more to
> > come!)
> > "Kevin Spencer" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> > news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> >> Is it just me, or am I really observing a trend away from analysis and
> >> probem-solving amongst programmers? Let me be more specific:
> >>
> >> It seems that every day, in greater numbers, people are coming to these
> >> programming newsgroups and asking for ready-made solutions to fairly

> > simple
> >> programming problems. They either want someone to write code for them,

or
> >> point them to a ready-made chunk of software that does what they need

to
> > do.
> >>
> >> Now, I'm all for productivity, and have all the latest and greatest
> >> programming productivity tools. From time to time I do buy third-party
> >> components, such as a managed Zip extractor. Yes, I could build my own
> >> Zip
> >> extractor. The WinZip site publishes their algorithms. But it's quite
> >> low-level stuff, and it would take me a week to write my own, whereas I
> >> could buy one for $50.00 and get on to more important things. That

seems
> >> reasonable to me. If it is cost that is truly the issue, third-party
> >> components are fine.
> >>
> >> On the other hand, third-party components are only as good as their
> >> designers. When you use a third-party component you are creating a form
> >> of
> >> external dependency, over which you have little or no control. So, all

> > other
> >> things being equal, I would tend to solve my own problems and build my
> >> own
> >> solutions.
> >>
> >> But, for example, asking for someone to write a snippet of

JavaScript...
> >> well, that's just plain lazy IMHO. In the development tools that
> >> Microsoft
> >> manufactures, there are enough tools and technology to build your own
> >> Operating System. It is as if Microsoft has given you every tool you
> >> could
> >> possibly need, and enough lumber to build the Hoover Dam, but if you

need
> > to
> >> build a dog house, and you've never built one before, by golly, you'll

> > just
> >> go out and buy one. Now, how does that make you a better carpenter? And

> > what
> >> justifies the expense of buying a dog house when you already have all

the
> >> tools and lumber to build one? Especially when it would cost you the

same
> >> amount of money to build one (in man-hours) as it takes to buy one? At

> > least
> >> if you build it you've enhanced your capabilites somewhat. And if you
> >> need
> >> to add air-conditioning to the existing dog house, well, you're all

> > prepared
> >> to do so, since you built it to begin with.
> >>
> >> I mean, whatever happened to the ethic that programmers should study
> >> their
> >> trade every day with diligence? I know I do. I probably spend an

average
> > of
> >> an hour a day studying my trade. Any good developer should, it seems to

> > me.
> >>
> >> So, what's up with all this "just give me the codes (and stuff)"
> >> attitude?
> >> Is it just me, or does this bother anybody else? Am I way off track

here?
> >>
> >> --
> >> HTH,
> >>
> >> Kevin Spencer
> >> Microsoft MVP
> >> .Net Developer
> >> What You Seek Is What You Get.
> >>
> >>

> >
> >

>
>



 
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