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Re: Odd scrolling issue

 
 
dorayme
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      01-21-2014
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
Ed Mullen <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> Okay, here's a weird one.
>
> Someone was perusing one of my Web sites and said, to paraphrase:
>
> "If I click in the vertical scroll bar below the handle the page scrolls
> down more than one full screen."
>
> That is, the vast majority of pages (I've checked many) will scroll so
> that the bottom of the first page is now at the top. The pages on my
> site scroll up past that, so that the content of the initial screen is
> above the top of the page. Meaning that the user will be missing, not
> see, some content.
>
> http://edmullen.net/mozilla/moz_combine.php
>

....

> Only the Moz-based browsers exhibit the problem. Although, oddly enough,
> they scroll properly using the Page Up and Page Down keyboard buttons.
>


On my Mac Safari, it happens too.

> I have tested this on a variety of sites online and most do not exhibit
> this but several do.
>
> While it seems to be a problem with the Mozilla core core, it also seems
> to be somehow HTML/CSS related too since some pages don't do this but
> all of mine do. Any thoughts welcome.


You are right about this. A simple

<body style="margin:0;">
<div><img src="Malgorzata-Dydek.jpg" alt="Tallest woman in the world"
width="1000" height="3000">

does not exhibit the problem.

With CSS off, the problem on your page largely goes away (there is a
slight difference between click below handles and page down, but only
slight)

I suspect it is to do with your *fixed* #doc_header in your default
CSS.

--
dorayme
 
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Osmo Saarikumpu
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      01-22-2014
On 22.1.2014 0:55, dorayme wrote:
> In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
> Ed Mullen <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>> Only the Moz-based browsers exhibit the problem. Although, oddly enough,
>> they scroll properly using the Page Up and Page Down keyboard buttons.


> On my Mac Safari, it happens too.


And I can reproduce the behavior in my Win Chrome also.

> I suspect it is to do with your *fixed* #doc_header in your default
> CSS.


It seems so, as removing position:fixed *fixes* the problem.

More info:

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=780345

--
Best wishes, Osmo
 
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dorayme
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      01-24-2014
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
Ed Mullen <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> dorayme wrote:
> > In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
> > Ed Mullen <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> >
> >> Okay, here's a weird one.
> >>
> >> Someone was perusing one of my Web sites and said, to paraphrase:
> >>
> >> "If I click in the vertical scroll bar below the handle the page scrolls
> >> down more than one full screen."
> >>

....
> >>
> >> http://edmullen.net/mozilla/moz_combine.php
> >>

> > ...
> >
> >> Only the Moz-based browsers exhibit the problem. Although, oddly enough,
> >> they scroll properly using the Page Up and Page Down keyboard buttons.
> >>



As I said, other browsers also exhibit the issue bothering you.


> >
> > I suspect it is to do with your *fixed* #doc_header in your default
> > CSS.
> >

>
> Hmm. Now the question is, given my layout, how to develop some strategy
> for incrementally disabling various rules in my CSS to try to figure it
> out. Hmm.
>
> But! Also, why isn't this happening across different browsers? I'm
> loathe to go chasing my CSS tail if this a browser-dependent issue.
>
> As I said in my OP, it seems to be both HTML/CSS on a particular page
> AND Mozilla-based browsers' handling of it.
>
> Quite mysterious!


All I can offer you is a cleaner test and a couple of suggestions,
others can add others:

<http://dorayme.netweaver.com.au/underFixedHeaderScrollingTest.html>

--
dorayme
 
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dorayme
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      01-26-2014
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
dorayme <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
> Ed Mullen <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
> > dorayme wrote:
> > > In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
> > > Ed Mullen <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

....
> > >>
> > >> http://edmullen.net/mozilla/moz_combine.php
> > >>

....
> >

....
> > Quite mysterious!

>
> All I can offer you is a cleaner test and a couple of suggestions,
> others can add others:
>
> <http://dorayme.netweaver.com.au/underFixedHeaderScrollingTest.html>


I have begun noticing the same thing for other sites that used fixed
headers, they may be taking following the sort of advice i mention in
my link above (namely, not worrying about it!) See, for example:


<http://app.nytimes.com/#2014/01/25/n...mb-attacks-in-
egypt>

--
dorayme
 
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dorayme
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      01-26-2014
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
Ed Mullen <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> dorayme wrote:
> > In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
> > dorayme <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> >
> >> In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
> >> Ed Mullen <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> >>
> >>> dorayme wrote:
> >>>> In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
> >>>> Ed Mullen <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> > ...
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://edmullen.net/mozilla/moz_combine.php
> >>>>>

> > ...
> >>>

> > ...
> >>> Quite mysterious!
> >>
> >> All I can offer you is a cleaner test and a couple of suggestions,
> >> others can add others:
> >>
> >> <http://dorayme.netweaver.com.au/underFixedHeaderScrollingTest.html>

> >
> > I have begun noticing the same thing for other sites that used fixed
> > headers, they may be taking following the sort of advice i mention in
> > my link above (namely, not worrying about it!) See, for example:
> >
> >
> > <http://app.nytimes.com/#2014/01/25/n...mb-attacks-in-
> > egypt>
> >

>
> dorayme, your insights are always appreciated.
>
> My perspective is this.
>
> Someone may not like the design attitude of a fixed header. So be it.
>


Well, this is not at all in question. We are assuming fixed headers.


> But the page(s) validate, both HTML and CSS. The issue I described
> originally comes down to one of the Mozilla rendering engine incorrectly
> handling such a case. And it only does it with one function,
> click-in-vertical-scroll-bar, NOT Page Down keyboard. So, there is code
> to in the application to do it right, they bjust need to apply it to all
> the GUI cases, not just one.
>


Well, I keep saying it is *not just* Mozilla. I will try not to say it
again. <g>


> Hence, the browser is broken, not the page. So, as I was loathe in the
> old days to special code for IE versions, I will not now special code
> for Mozilla browsers.
>
> Also, Mozilla has for decades boasted about its "standards compliant"
> attitude. So, hey, comply this.


Looking at the link I gave you to test with, are any of your
non-Mozilla browsers scrolling the bottom-most number to *under* the
fixed header on either page down key or on click under scroll handle?
What CSS would you add to stop this happening in non-Mozilla browsers?

I am trying to simplify what is happening so you can develop a
strategy.

--
dorayme
 
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Neil Gould
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      01-27-2014
Ed Mullen wrote:
>> dorayme wrote:
>> [heavily snipped]
>> It depends on how you fill and further style:
>>
>> <http://dorayme.netweaver.com.au/fixedContentUnderFixedHeader.html>
>>
>> It might solve your problem. <g>

>
> But, it's NOT my problem, it's the Mozilla-based browsers'
> problem.
>

Ed, you've nailed the issue, Mozilla screwed up their code in newer
browsers. All of these pages work properly in FF12, which shows that it is
not your code that is the problem. Firefox for Android *really* screws up
sites with fixed headers, and there are many, from very large organizations
that use this type of header. So, I agree with your approach of not trying
to "code your way around" this problem.
--
best regards,

Neil


 
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dorayme
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      01-27-2014
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
Ed Mullen <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> dorayme wrote:
> > In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
> > Ed Mullen <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> >
> >> dorayme wrote, then Ed Mullen, then dorayme, then maybe Roger Rabbit...
> >> anyway...

> >
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> <http://dorayme.netweaver.com.au/underFixedHeaderScrollingTest.html>
> >>>>>

> >
> >> The links you gave don't really demonstrate the issue since the first
> >> one the scrolling text is not under the fixed header.

> >
> > There is no colour set on the background of the header so that you can
> > see where the numbers scroll to under the top of the viewport. The
> > header is deliberately widthed so that you can see it too and read the
> > writing, the relevant bit of it being its *height*, the scrolling
> > numbers not interfering with you seeing them clearly when they go
> > above the bottom of the header. It demonstrates the issue if you take
> > these two things into account. You can see exactly how high in the
> > viewport different browsers page-down and click-under-handle down.
> >

>
> the text is offset to the right and does not flow up under the fixed
> header. What am I missing?
>


You are missing that you do not need to see the numbers disappear
completely, all you need to see is how they are placed in the viewport
with respect to the height of the header. You can see exactly where
the numbers are scrolling up to behind what would be the full width
header with a background if one styled it so.

....


> >
> > <http://dorayme.netweaver.com.au/fixedContentUnderFixedHeader.html>
> >
> > It might solve your problem. <g>

>
> But, it's NOT my problem, it's the Mozilla-based browsers' problem.
>


Being so exasperated by something (so much that it drives you to drink
- see below), sounds like you have a problem with it! <g>

....

> >> What is annoying is that Page Down works just fine in the Mozzies. So,
> >> the code is in there to do this correctly.

> >


....

> > Even page-down does not work in some other good browsers.

>
> But you ignore my point: Page Down in those browser works fine. So,
> the code exists in the browser to do it right. It simply isn't applied
> to the "click in the vertical scroll area" part of the UI. Their Page
> Down and Page Up keyboard functions work fine. All they need to do is
> apply the same routine to the "click in the vertical scroll area" function.
>


It is not ignoring your point to point out that there other browsers
which exhibit the same "problem" with not only click under scroll bar
handles but also with Page Down.


> And, if we're having different results in our tests, well, even more
> evidence that something is amiss in the browsers, not my validated HTMO
> and CSS.



Validated HTML and CSS cannot guarantee that browser chromes work as
you expect. What you are seeing is not *against* any HTML or CSS
standards *as far as I know* (I could be wrong, see below). They may
be against some commonsense or against what you would want if you
design with fixed headers but that is different. There are lots and
lots of things like this. You must look after your health Ed and not
let it drive you to drink. I am dispatching a team of health
professionals to help you, it's ok, I have paid them.

> Especially Mozilla browsers. For a decade or more I've been
> using them in part because of their "supposed" adherence to the W3C
> standards. The W3C defines and embraces postion:fixed. All I'm doing is
> complaining about how a (supposedly) compliant browser screws it up.
>


It looks as if you know something I don't here. Is there something in
the W3C standards that actually tackles the particular problem you
have raised?

> > Trying to tackle this problem from the author end may be a hiding to
> > nothing.
> >

>
> Yeah, it's annoying. But now fatal. And, there seems to be nothing to
> do (for the author) about it.
>
> And the end-all seems to be this.
>
> I think I'll another have bourbon and just ignore this for now.


--
dorayme
 
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Ray_Net
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      01-27-2014
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed) says...
>
> "Ray_Net" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message news:(E-Mail Removed) t...
> > In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
> > (E-Mail Removed) says...
> >> Make four pages
> >> For all four User-Agents
> >> Browsers

> > Just one page shows the Mozilla browser bug.
> > But the question is:
> > Will it be corrected or never ?

>
> Will I would not <blink> </blink
> Never will Blank with IE
> And it's not a bug.
>

If other browsers works correctly, it's a Mozilla bug !
 
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dorayme
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      01-28-2014
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
Ed Mullen <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> dorayme wrote:
> > In article <lc5t2h$ftj$(E-Mail Removed)>,
> > "Neil Gould" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> >
> >> Ed, you've nailed the issue, Mozilla screwed up their code in newer
> >> browsers. All of these pages work properly in FF12, which shows that it is
> >> not your code that is the problem. Firefox for Android *really* screws up
> >> sites with fixed headers, and there are many, from very large organizations
> >> that use this type of header. So, I agree with your approach of not trying
> >> to "code your way around" this problem.

> >
> > If browsers don't do what you expect them to do with the markup and
> > style you use, you should never modify your work?
> >

>
> Of course not. But that isn't responsive to the case in discussion.



It was meant to invite Neil Gould to say interesting things relevant
to the question of under what circumstances an author should modify
their HTML/CSS and design and when not.


> ... I'm suprised you'd comment
> like that, omitting knowledge of previous facts of this discussion.


It was not a comment, it was a question, and it was a serious one.

What facts was I *omitting*?

And please cite the relevant HTML/CSS or any other industry standard
that all browser makers should be aware of that requires the page down
and the click under scroll handler to behave as you are wanting.

--
dorayme
 
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dorayme
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      01-28-2014
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
Ed Mullen <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> dorayme wrote:
> > In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
> > Ed Mullen <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> >
> >> dorayme wrote:
> >>> In article <lc5t2h$ftj$(E-Mail Removed)>,
> >>> "Neil Gould" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Ed, you've nailed the issue, Mozilla screwed up their code in newer
> >>>> browsers. All of these pages work properly in FF12, which shows that it
> >>>> is
> >>>> not your code that is the problem. Firefox for Android *really* screws
> >>>> up
> >>>> sites with fixed headers, and there are many, from very large
> >>>> organizations
> >>>> that use this type of header. So, I agree with your approach of not
> >>>> trying
> >>>> to "code your way around" this problem.
> >>>
> >>> If browsers don't do what you expect them to do with the markup and
> >>> style you use, you should never modify your work?
> >>>
> >>
> >> Of course not. But that isn't responsive to the case in discussion.

> >
> >
> > It was meant to invite Neil Gould to say interesting things relevant
> > to the question of under what circumstances an author should modify
> > their HTML/CSS and design and when not.

>
> Understood. I'm just saying modifying my code and/or design is not an
> appropriate answer/solution since I'm using standards compliant HTML and
> CSS.
>


This goes against what authors have been (albeit reluctantly) doing
for years and years, namely modifying the way they design to
accommodate real word realities. "Standards compliant" HTML and CSS is
good and you are to be commended for respecting it. But to say it is
inappropriate course of action, something not to be considered, is a
bridge too far and especially so if you are not sure that there is a
standard for browser chrome behaviour in the specific circumstances
you have been concerned about.

....

> >
> > And please cite the relevant HTML/CSS or any other industry standard
> > that all browser makers should be aware of that requires the page down
> > and the click under scroll handler to behave as you are wanting.
> >

>
> Never said there was one. I suppose there might be but I don't think it
> matters.


It does not matter? If there is no standard, nothing agreed upon that
is respected by browser makers, are they not free to do what they
think best? If different browsers behave differently in respect to
some styling, as has been the case for years where the standards are
not clear or give no guidance, then it would seem reasonable for
authors who are concerned about browser rendering and browser chrome
differences not to be too sure in their exasperation that it is the
browser's faults.

There are issues about how a browser is to *know* when a fixed element
is not make like a carpet under which scrolling content can hide.
There are types of designs where authors might want their scrolling to
appear in the fixed elements. The issue is not a simple one. The way
browsers behave in respect to it might not be bugs to be corrected.

However, it is true that if a browser does do Page Down one way, it
*may* be reasonable to expect, as you do, for it to do click under
scroll handler the same. But the issue is clouded, even dwarfed by
that other browsers do neither as you want them to.

Anyway, for anyone that is interested in these matters and who are as
exasperated by the issue, one possible solution at least to consider
is something along the lines of

<http://dorayme.netweaver.com.au/fixedContentUnderFixedHeader.html>

If it is styled appropriately, it might well not be even ugly. Imagine
a nice background image on the header, there are ways for it to be
height fluid with a horizontal menu at its bottom, all not needing
scrolling, the scrollbars becoming active and to the far right for the
content when needed. It is just a thought, I know you will not use it.
But others might find it interesting to play with. I confess I have
not tested in in many browsers as yet.

--
dorayme
 
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