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Re: Several Perl Questions - Nov. 5, 2013

 
 
Ben Bacarisse
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      11-14-2013
"E.D.G." <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:

> "E.D.G." <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>> "E.D.G." <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>> news:(E-Mail Removed) m...

>
> The program that I mentioned that my colleague could not
> translate was apparently written using FORTRAN 77 with the LAHEY-F77
> compiler. And this appears to be the present Web site for download
> versions of the program.
>
> http://www.bfo.geophys.uni-stuttgart.de/etgtab.html


There does not seem to be anything odd about that program. It goes
through gfortran fine. -Wall -Wextra give a few warnings, but none look
to be serious.

> Since he could not determine how to translate the code I am
> assuming that FORTRAN 77 is no longer in general use.


It is considered old, but Fortran is good at backwards compatibility. I
really don't see any reason why the program can't be used as-is. (There
is a system dependency in the timer code, but that's trivial.)

<snip>
--
Ben.
 
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Rainer Weikusat
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      11-14-2013
Ben Bacarisse <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:
> "E.D.G." <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:
>> "E.D.G." <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>> news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>>> "E.D.G." <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>>> news:(E-Mail Removed) m...

>>
>> The program that I mentioned that my colleague could not
>> translate was apparently written using FORTRAN 77 with the LAHEY-F77
>> compiler. And this appears to be the present Web site for download
>> versions of the program.
>>
>> http://www.bfo.geophys.uni-stuttgart.de/etgtab.html

>
> There does not seem to be anything odd about that program. It goes
> through gfortran fine. -Wall -Wextra give a few warnings, but none look
> to be serious.
>
>> Since he could not determine how to translate the code I am
>> assuming that FORTRAN 77 is no longer in general use.

>
> It is considered old, but Fortran is good at backwards compatibility. I
> really don't see any reason why the program can't be used as-is.


In the sense that the high priest prepares the fruits and vegetables and
chicken and lambs and first born children for the sacrifice while
wearing the white, ornamental robes, then kills everything alive, making
sure to mix and spread the blood exactly as the ancient ritual
prescribes and then takes a deep breath and waits ... until a thunderous
voice booms "The answer is 42!" from the skies, surely.
 
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Ben Bacarisse
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      11-14-2013
Rainer Weikusat <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:

> Ben Bacarisse <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:
>> "E.D.G." <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:
>>> "E.D.G." <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>>> news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>>>> "E.D.G." <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>>>> news:(E-Mail Removed) m...
>>>
>>> The program that I mentioned that my colleague could not
>>> translate was apparently written using FORTRAN 77 with the LAHEY-F77
>>> compiler. And this appears to be the present Web site for download
>>> versions of the program.
>>>
>>> http://www.bfo.geophys.uni-stuttgart.de/etgtab.html

>>
>> There does not seem to be anything odd about that program. It goes
>> through gfortran fine. -Wall -Wextra give a few warnings, but none look
>> to be serious.
>>
>>> Since he could not determine how to translate the code I am
>>> assuming that FORTRAN 77 is no longer in general use.

>>
>> It is considered old, but Fortran is good at backwards compatibility. I
>> really don't see any reason why the program can't be used as-is.

>
> In the sense that the high priest prepares the fruits and vegetables and
> chicken and lambs and first born children for the sacrifice while
> wearing the white, ornamental robes, then kills everything alive, making
> sure to mix and spread the blood exactly as the ancient ritual
> prescribes and then takes a deep breath and waits ... until a thunderous
> voice booms "The answer is 42!" from the skies, surely.


That's too obscure for me (I get the reference, just not the point).

--
Ben.
 
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Rainer Weikusat
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      11-14-2013
Ben Bacarisse <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:
> Rainer Weikusat <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:
>
>> Ben Bacarisse <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:
>>> "E.D.G." <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:


[...]

>>>> The program that I mentioned that my colleague could not
>>>> translate was apparently written using FORTRAN 77 with the LAHEY-F77
>>>> compiler. And this appears to be the present Web site for download
>>>> versions of the program.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.bfo.geophys.uni-stuttgart.de/etgtab.html


[...]

>>> I really don't see any reason why the program can't be used as-is.

>>
>> In the sense that the high priest prepares the fruits and vegetables and
>> chicken and lambs and first born children for the sacrifice while
>> wearing the white, ornamental robes, then kills everything alive, making
>> sure to mix and spread the blood exactly as the ancient ritual
>> prescribes and then takes a deep breath and waits ... until a thunderous
>> voice booms "The answer is 42!" from the skies, surely.

>
> That's too obscure for me (I get the reference, just not the point).


Considering that there's certainly no living being who understands this
code (and I very much doubt that there ever was), all one can do with this
program is humbly feed it with some input and gratefully accept whatever
output it produces, with the result being defined as correct because
"The computer said so!", despite nobody understands how it arrived there
and why this result and not some other one was produced.

That's closer to asking an oracle than what I would consider 'science'
....
 
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Ben Bacarisse
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      11-14-2013
Rainer Weikusat <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:

> Ben Bacarisse <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:
>> Rainer Weikusat <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:
>>
>>> Ben Bacarisse <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:
>>>> "E.D.G." <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:

>
> [...]
>
>>>>> The program that I mentioned that my colleague could not
>>>>> translate was apparently written using FORTRAN 77 with the LAHEY-F77
>>>>> compiler. And this appears to be the present Web site for download
>>>>> versions of the program.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.bfo.geophys.uni-stuttgart.de/etgtab.html

>
> [...]
>
>>>> I really don't see any reason why the program can't be used as-is.
>>>
>>> In the sense that the high priest prepares the fruits and vegetables and
>>> chicken and lambs and first born children for the sacrifice while
>>> wearing the white, ornamental robes, then kills everything alive, making
>>> sure to mix and spread the blood exactly as the ancient ritual
>>> prescribes and then takes a deep breath and waits ... until a thunderous
>>> voice booms "The answer is 42!" from the skies, surely.

>>
>> That's too obscure for me (I get the reference, just not the point).

>
> Considering that there's certainly no living being who understands this
> code (and I very much doubt that there ever was), all one can do with this
> program is humbly feed it with some input and gratefully accept whatever
> output it produces, with the result being defined as correct because
> "The computer said so!", despite nobody understands how it arrived there
> and why this result and not some other one was produced.


I get the point. However the question is surely whether there might be
someone who understands this code in the future? It might then be
possible understand the output. I don't think this is an unreasonable
hope.

It's 2318 lines long, but more than half are comment lines, and a
further 120 or so are house-keeping lines like FORMAT and CONTINUE (used
here like } in C, not as a jump). There are only 50 GOTOs and all seem
to forward jumps. At less than 1000 lines of code it doesn't seem
impossible to me that someone could understand it. I've worked with
much less structured Fortran in the past.

Not easy, sure, and it may turn out to be a doomed project, but my first
job was unravelling exactly this sort of program (well, worse, to be
frank) and when I looked at it I thought, "not too bad". I was,
however, glad that this was no longer my job!

--
Ben.
 
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Rainer Weikusat
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      11-14-2013
Ben Bacarisse <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:
> Rainer Weikusat <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:
>> Ben Bacarisse <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:
>>> Rainer Weikusat <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:
>>>
>>>> Ben Bacarisse <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:
>>>>> "E.D.G." <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:

>>
>> [...]
>>
>>>>>> The program that I mentioned that my colleague could not
>>>>>> translate was apparently written using FORTRAN 77 with the LAHEY-F77
>>>>>> compiler. And this appears to be the present Web site for download
>>>>>> versions of the program.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.bfo.geophys.uni-stuttgart.de/etgtab.html

>>
>> [...]
>>
>>>>> I really don't see any reason why the program can't be used as-is.
>>>>
>>>> In the sense that the high priest prepares the fruits and vegetables and
>>>> chicken and lambs and first born children for the sacrifice while
>>>> wearing the white, ornamental robes, then kills everything alive, making
>>>> sure to mix and spread the blood exactly as the ancient ritual
>>>> prescribes and then takes a deep breath and waits ... until a thunderous
>>>> voice booms "The answer is 42!" from the skies, surely.
>>>
>>> That's too obscure for me (I get the reference, just not the point).

>>
>> Considering that there's certainly no living being who understands this
>> code (and I very much doubt that there ever was), all one can do with this
>> program is humbly feed it with some input and gratefully accept whatever
>> output it produces, with the result being defined as correct because
>> "The computer said so!", despite nobody understands how it arrived there
>> and why this result and not some other one was produced.

>
> I get the point. However the question is surely whether there might be
> someone who understands this code in the future? It might then be
> possible understand the output. I don't think this is an unreasonable
> hope.
>
> It's 2318 lines long, but more than half are comment lines, and a
> further 120 or so are house-keeping lines like FORMAT and CONTINUE (used
> here like } in C, not as a jump).


There are two of them, the older one being a little larger. And the code
looks like this:

DGX(1)=(DHLAT(1)-(6.D0*DLLAT(1)*DC2T)/(3.D0*DCT2-1.D0))*DCAZ**2
1 +(DHLAT(1)-(6.D0*DLLAT(1)*DCT2)/(3.D0*DCT2-1.D0))*DSAZ**2
DGY(1)=0.D0
DGX(2)=(DHLAT(2)-4.D0*DLLAT(2))*DCAZ**2+(DHLAT(2)-DLLAT(2)/DST2
1 +2.D0*DLLAT(2)*DCOTT*DCOTT2)*DSAZ**2
DGY(2)=2.D0*DLLAT(2)*(2.D0*DCOTT2-DCOTT)*DCSTS/DST
DGX(3)=(DHLAT(3)+2.D0*DLLAT(3)*(DCOTT*DCOTT-1.D0))*DCAZ**2
1 +(DHLAT(3)-4.D0*DLLAT(3)/DST2+2.D0*DLLAT(3)*DCOTT*DCOTT)*DSAZ**2
DGY(3)=4.D0*DLLAT(3)*DCOTT*DCSTS/DST
DGX(4)=(DHLAT(4)+DLLAT(4)*(33.D0-45.D0*DCT2)/(5.D0*DCT2-3.D0))*
1 DCAZ**2+(DHLAT(4)-DLLAT(4)*(1.D0+10.D0*DCT2/(5.D0*DCT2-3.D0)))*
2 DSAZ**2
DGY(4)=0.D0
DGX(5)=(DHLAT(5)-DLLAT(5)*(1.D0+10.D0*(1.D0-4.D0*DCT2)/
1 (1.D0-5.D0*DCT2)))*DCAZ**2+(DHLAT(5)+DLLAT(5)*
2 (DCOTT*DCOTT-1.D0/DST2-10.D0*DCT2/(5.D0*DCT2-1.D0)))*DSAZ**2
DGY(5)=-20.D0*DLLAT(5)*DCT*DCSTS/(5.D0*DCT2-1.D0)
DGX(6)=(DHLAT(6)+DLLAT(6)*(2.D0*DCOTT*DCOTT-7.D0))*DCAZ**2
1 +(DHLAT(6)+DLLAT(6)*(2.D0*DCOTT*DCOTT-1.D0-4.D0/DST2))*DSAZ**2
DGY(6)=-4.D0*DLLAT(6)*(DCOTT-1.D0/DCOTT)*DCSTS/DST
DGX(7)=(DHLAT(7)+DLLAT(7)*(6.D0*DCOTT*DCOTT-3.D0))*DCAZ**2

> There are only 50 GOTOs and all seem
> to forward jumps. At less than 1000 lines of code it doesn't seem
> impossible to me that someone could understand it.


It is surely not impossible that someone checks this code
character-by-character, considering the context of all characters
checked so far and still to be checked, to determine what this actually
does and to verify that what it does happens to be correct, however, the
effort necessary to rewrite this shirt cuff doodling gone out of hand from
scratch is almost certainly going to be a lot lower.
 
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Charlton Wilbur
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      11-18-2013
>>>>> "BB" == Ben Bacarisse <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:

BB> I get the point. However the question is surely whether there
BB> might be someone who understands this code in the future? It
BB> might then be possible understand the output. I don't think
BB> this is an unreasonable hope.

I think the question is whether there is any overlap among the set of
people who understand this code, the set of people who are willing to
work with EDG, and the set of people who are willing to do the work for
the rates EDG is willing to pay.

My sense is that the intersection of those three sets is the null set.

Charlton


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Charlton Wilbur
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