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Re: AUTO types doubt

 
 
Seebs
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      10-05-2013
On 2013-10-05, rashan <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> I thought auto was a C++ construction? However my C compiler will except
> it. BUT auto is NOT necessary to shadow a global variable. At least in my
> compiler.


As noted elsewhere, this is because it's a convention used to make it easier
for people within an organization to read each others' code.

I wish to point out two other things:

1. Using "(E-Mail Removed)" as an address will get your messages blocked
automatically by a lot of killfiles, as many spammers use that address. Use
some other address.
2. The word "doubt" has different connotations in different dialects of
English. In many dialects of English, "doubt" has the connotation that
someone has told you something and you don't believe them. What this means
is that if you use it universally for any form of uncertainty or request
for information, you will likely sometimes be misunderstood to be accusing
people of lying.

In general, if you want information about something, "question" is a neutral
term. "Doubt" carries the connotation that you think something you've been
told is wrong. (It's also rarely used without an object; you would usually say
"I doubt <X>", or "I have a doubt about <X>", not "I have a doubt".
Conveniently, this often provides disambiguation for the alternative usage.)

-s
--
Copyright 2013, all wrongs reversed. Peter Seebach / http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed)
http://www.seebs.net/log/ <-- lawsuits, religion, and funny pictures
Autism Speaks does not speak for me. http://autisticadvocacy.org/
I am not speaking for my employer, although they do rent some of my opinions.
 
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James Kuyper
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      10-07-2013
On 10/07/2013 12:52 PM, rashan wrote:
....
> Thanks for this information. In fact, (E-Mail Removed) is NOT my email
> address, I use it, to avoid spam. Sorry, I would thought this obvious!


It was perfectly obvious; but the obvious is not always what's true -
it's also frequently used both by trolls and by spammers, for reasons
that have nothing to do with avoiding spam.

> By doubt I don't think, " something you've been told is wrong ", I mean
> the meaning of asking a question.


Yes, but AFAIK, "doubt" has that meaning only in those dialects of
English in use in India and its vicinity. It does not have that meaning
in either American nor British English, and I doubt that it has that
meaning in most of the other dialects of English, either. For messages
posted to international English-oriented forums like this one, it's best
to use "question" rather than "doubt", to avoid confusion.

I'm curious: in your dialect, do the phrases "I have a doubt" and "I
have a question" have exactly the same meaning, or different meanings,
or do you simply never use the word "question" that way?


 
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Keith Thompson
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      10-07-2013
rashan <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:
> On Sat, 05 Oct 2013 23:26:15 +0000, Seebs wrote:
>> On 2013-10-05, rashan <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

[...]
>> I wish to point out two other things:
>>
>> 1. Using "(E-Mail Removed)" as an address will get your messages
>> blocked automatically by a lot of killfiles, as many spammers use that
>> address. Use some other address.
>> 2. The word "doubt" has different connotations in different dialects of
>> English. In many dialects of English, "doubt" has the connotation that
>> someone has told you something and you don't believe them. What this
>> means is that if you use it universally for any form of uncertainty or
>> request for information, you will likely sometimes be misunderstood to
>> be accusing people of lying.
>>
>> In general, if you want information about something, "question" is a
>> neutral term. "Doubt" carries the connotation that you think something
>> you've been told is wrong. (It's also rarely used without an object; you
>> would usually say "I doubt <X>", or "I have a doubt about <X>", not "I
>> have a doubt". Conveniently, this often provides disambiguation for the
>> alternative usage.)
>>
>> -s

>
> Thanks for this information. In fact, (E-Mail Removed) is NOT my email
> address, I use it, to avoid spam. Sorry, I would thought this obvious! I
> will read messages in this forum, if you want to send me an email I can
> tell you my true address for sure.


It's almost entirely obvious that (E-Mail Removed) is not your real
e-mail address.

Actually it's not 100% obvious. nospam.com is a real domain, and
(E-Mail Removed) could be a valid e-mail address belonging to someone
else. (I have another address that looks fake but can actually receive
e-mail. No, I'm not going to post it here.)

The problem Seebs was pointing out is that, because some spammers use
(E-Mail Removed), some readers here may automatically ignore messages
from that address.

If you don't want to use your actual e-mail address, you can use a fake
address that can't possibly belong to someone else; "example.com" is
guaranteed to be invalid, or you can use an invalid TLD (".xyz" is
probably safe for now). Or you can register a free e-mail account that
you use only for posting here.

> By doubt I don't think, " something you've been told is wrong ", I mean
> the meaning of asking a question.


When posting to an international forum, you might consider using the
word "question" rather than "doubt" to avoid confusion. (Though most of
us here in comp.lang.c are familiar with the usage.)

> Hope it is clear now, thanks for all ur answers. I use a lot of global
> vars, it's annoying, to check each time if my local vars are shadowing.
> But it is, seems, necessary


Another bit of advice: please don't use abbreviations like "ur".
Spell out the whole word "your". Typing "ur" rather than "your"
might save you a fraction of a second typing it, but it trips up
a lot of people reading it.

--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) (E-Mail Removed) <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
Working, but not speaking, for JetHead Development, Inc.
"We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this."
-- Antony Jay and Jonathan Lynn, "Yes Minister"
 
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Seebs
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      10-08-2013
On 2013-10-07, James Kuyper <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> On 10/07/2013 12:52 PM, rashan wrote:
> ...
>> Thanks for this information. In fact, (E-Mail Removed) is NOT my email
>> address, I use it, to avoid spam. Sorry, I would thought this obvious!


> It was perfectly obvious; but the obvious is not always what's true -
> it's also frequently used both by trolls and by spammers, for reasons
> that have nothing to do with avoiding spam.


Yes. It's not that we think it's the poster's address; it's that I have
had "(E-Mail Removed)" killfiled for many years, and given how much that
gets posted under that address is spam, that's not changing.

>> By doubt I don't think, " something you've been told is wrong ", I mean
>> the meaning of asking a question.


> Yes, but AFAIK, "doubt" has that meaning only in those dialects of
> English in use in India and its vicinity. It does not have that meaning
> in either American nor British English, and I doubt that it has that
> meaning in most of the other dialects of English, either.


Exactly. To someone who learned American or British English, and hasn't
specifically been told about this quirk of Indian English, they're going
to either be confused, or simply assume that the speaker is accusing someone
somewhere of lying. It took me a few such posts before I realized there
must be some other usage I wasn't familiar with; the first few I saw, as
I recall, I thought the poster was accusing their programming teacher of
lying to them.

-s
--
Copyright 2013, all wrongs reversed. Peter Seebach / (E-Mail Removed)
http://www.seebs.net/log/ <-- lawsuits, religion, and funny pictures
Autism Speaks does not speak for me. http://autisticadvocacy.org/
I am not speaking for my employer, although they do rent some of my opinions.
 
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Nobody
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      10-08-2013
On Tue, 08 Oct 2013 02:13:46 +0000, Seebs wrote:

>> Yes, but AFAIK, "doubt" has that meaning only in those dialects of
>> English in use in India and its vicinity. It does not have that meaning
>> in either American nor British English, and I doubt that it has that
>> meaning in most of the other dialects of English, either.

>
> Exactly. To someone who learned American or British English, and hasn't
> specifically been told about this quirk of Indian English, they're going
> to either be confused, or simply assume that the speaker is accusing someone
> somewhere of lying.


I doubt that. I never had any trouble understanding what was meant.

The "lying" aspect only comes into play when you express doubt regarding
something which is being asserted as truth. It's perfectly reasonable to
express doubts about someone's predictions or hypotheses.

 
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Seebs
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      10-08-2013
On 2013-10-08, Nobody <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> On Tue, 08 Oct 2013 02:13:46 +0000, Seebs wrote:
>>> Yes, but AFAIK, "doubt" has that meaning only in those dialects of
>>> English in use in India and its vicinity. It does not have that meaning
>>> in either American nor British English, and I doubt that it has that
>>> meaning in most of the other dialects of English, either.


>> Exactly. To someone who learned American or British English, and hasn't
>> specifically been told about this quirk of Indian English, they're going
>> to either be confused, or simply assume that the speaker is accusing someone
>> somewhere of lying.


> I doubt that. I never had any trouble understanding what was meant.


Maybe you didn't. Many people do.

> The "lying" aspect only comes into play when you express doubt regarding
> something which is being asserted as truth. It's perfectly reasonable to
> express doubts about someone's predictions or hypotheses.


Well, lying, incompetent, unqualified, etcetera. But when someone makes an
assertion that's clearly a straightforward one in a field where they present
as competent to answer questions, and you say you have doubts about it,
that's usually interpreted as suggesting that they are being dishonest
either about the claim or about their qualifications. "A doubt" is sort of
non-idiomatic, but if you happen not to be familiar with the usage, it can
result in confusion.

-s
--
Copyright 2013, all wrongs reversed. Peter Seebach / (E-Mail Removed)
http://www.seebs.net/log/ <-- lawsuits, religion, and funny pictures
Autism Speaks does not speak for me. http://autisticadvocacy.org/
I am not speaking for my employer, although they do rent some of my opinions.
 
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Geoff
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      10-08-2013
I am always amused by the amount of time this group spends discussing
the usage of the word "doubt" versus "question" when they know
perfectly well that when such usage occurs it comes from a culture
that invented the first symbol for zero, all while they are perfectly
content with the state of the multiplicity of usage for "static" in C.
 
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Joe Pfeiffer
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      10-08-2013
Nobody <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:

> On Tue, 08 Oct 2013 02:13:46 +0000, Seebs wrote:
>
>>> Yes, but AFAIK, "doubt" has that meaning only in those dialects of
>>> English in use in India and its vicinity. It does not have that meaning
>>> in either American nor British English, and I doubt that it has that
>>> meaning in most of the other dialects of English, either.

>>
>> Exactly. To someone who learned American or British English, and hasn't
>> specifically been told about this quirk of Indian English, they're going
>> to either be confused, or simply assume that the speaker is accusing someone
>> somewhere of lying.

>
> I doubt that. I never had any trouble understanding what was meant.
>
> The "lying" aspect only comes into play when you express doubt regarding
> something which is being asserted as truth. It's perfectly reasonable to
> express doubts about someone's predictions or hypotheses.


FWIW, the first time I ever encountered that usage was when a student
asked me a question in class, and expressed it as having a doubt about
something I'd said. I didn't jump to thinking he was asserting I was
lying, but I was preparing to justify what I'd said when I realized that
wasn't what he'd meant.

Something I find morbidly interesting in both email and usenet is
the extent to which "I think you're wrong" has been replaced with
"YOU'RE LYING!!!!" in recent years.
 
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James Kuyper
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      10-08-2013
On 10/08/2013 04:25 PM, Geoff wrote:
> ... while they are perfectly
> content with the state of the multiplicity of usage for "static" in C.


Do you know of anyone who has expressed contentment over that issue? I'm
certainly not content with it - the different meanings it currently
conveys should have been given different names. It's been argued that
internal linkage should have been made the default, in which case that
meaning of "static" wouldn't even have been needed.

Backwards compatibility issues mean that this will never be fixed, and
we may be resigned to that fact, but it doesn't mean that we're content
with it.

 
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Geoff
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      10-08-2013
On Tue, 08 Oct 2013 16:40:56 -0400, James Kuyper
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>On 10/08/2013 04:25 PM, Geoff wrote:
>> ... while they are perfectly
>> content with the state of the multiplicity of usage for "static" in C.

>
>Do you know of anyone who has expressed contentment over that issue? I'm
>certainly not content with it - the different meanings it currently
>conveys should have been given different names. It's been argued that
>internal linkage should have been made the default, in which case that
>meaning of "static" wouldn't even have been needed.
>
>Backwards compatibility issues mean that this will never be fixed, and
>we may be resigned to that fact, but it doesn't mean that we're content
>with it.


Ah, I am glad we cleared that up. We can now move on from discussing
that which we can do nothing about. We need not be content, we only
need to cope.
 
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