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Robert Coe
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      08-20-2013
On Mon, 19 Aug 2013 18:26:35 +0200, Sandman <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
: In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
: sid <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
:
: > >> Nice pics pity you don't speak proper english like what me and the queen
: > >> do
: > >
: > > Haha, drunk Dave tries to make a spelling flame! That's HILARIOUS!
: > >
: > > And, as usual when making a spelling flame, you messed up the grammar:
: > >
: > > "like what me and the queen do".
: > >
: > > Ironic.
: >
: > The trouble with setting your self up as an English expert is that as a non
: > native English speaker you just do not "get" the jist, not for the first
: > time, of what is being said to you.
: > For starters it was not a spelling flame but a grammar flame and secondly
: > Dave wrote perfectly correctly for the meaning he was conveying.
:
: Not only have I set myself up as an "expert" of anything, but you're
: also incorrect. Removing non-qualifying parts of the sentence:
:
: "you don't speak English like what I do"
:
: Is not a properly formatted English sentence. "What" is a relative
: pronoun here that does not relate to anything else in the sentence as
: constructed. "Speak" is a verb, and is referenced with an adverb, like
: "how".
:
: "you don't speak English like I do"
: "you don't speak English how I do"
: "you don't speak English the way I do"
:
: Are all correct. And thus the correct version would be:
:
: "You don't speak proper English like me and the Queen"
:
: No adverb or pronoun is even needed. But if you insist:
:
: "You don't speak proper English like how me and the Queen does it"
:
: Also note the punctuation and capitalisation:
:
: Drunk Dave:
: "Nice pics pity you don't speak proper english like what me and the
: queen do"
:
: Actual English:
: "Nice pics. Pity you don't speak proper English like me and the
: Queen"
:
: I'm not an expert, but I'm not stupid either. There is a middle road

Jonas, you're digging yourself a hole! Sid is letting you have it (with
impeccable grammatical precision) in a recognizably non-RP British dialect.
(Think Landsmål vs Rijksmål, I don't know whether there's an equivalent
distinction in Svensk.)

Warning: When Bret Douglas comes on next April 1 with his annual anti-Canon
screed and promise to switch to Nikon, take a good, thoughtful look at the
calendar before you respond. :^)

Bob
 
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Robert Coe
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      08-20-2013
On Mon, 19 Aug 2013 23:32:38 -0400, Robert Coe <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
: On Mon, 19 Aug 2013 18:26:35 +0200, Sandman <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
: : In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
: : sid <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
: :
: : > >> Nice pics pity you don't speak proper english like what me and the queen
: : > >> do
: : > >
: : > > Haha, drunk Dave tries to make a spelling flame! That's HILARIOUS!
: : > >
: : > > And, as usual when making a spelling flame, you messed up the grammar:
: : > >
: : > > "like what me and the queen do".
: : > >
: : > > Ironic.
: : >
: : > The trouble with setting your self up as an English expert is that as a non
: : > native English speaker you just do not "get" the jist, not for the first
: : > time, of what is being said to you.
: : > For starters it was not a spelling flame but a grammar flame and secondly
: : > Dave wrote perfectly correctly for the meaning he was conveying.
: :
: : Not only have I set myself up as an "expert" of anything, but you're
: : also incorrect. Removing non-qualifying parts of the sentence:
: :
: : "you don't speak English like what I do"
: :
: : Is not a properly formatted English sentence. "What" is a relative
: : pronoun here that does not relate to anything else in the sentence as
: : constructed. "Speak" is a verb, and is referenced with an adverb, like
: : "how".
: :
: : "you don't speak English like I do"
: : "you don't speak English how I do"
: : "you don't speak English the way I do"
: :
: : Are all correct. And thus the correct version would be:
: :
: : "You don't speak proper English like me and the Queen"
: :
: : No adverb or pronoun is even needed. But if you insist:
: :
: : "You don't speak proper English like how me and the Queen does it"
: :
: : Also note the punctuation and capitalisation:
: :
: : Drunk Dave:
: : "Nice pics pity you don't speak proper english like what me and the
: : queen do"
: :
: : Actual English:
: : "Nice pics. Pity you don't speak proper English like me and the
: : Queen"
: :
: : I'm not an expert, but I'm not stupid either. There is a middle road
:
: Jonas, you're digging yourself a hole! Sid is letting you have it (with
: impeccable grammatical precision) in a recognizably non-RP British dialect.
: (Think Landsmål vs Rijksmål, I don't know whether there's an equivalent
: distinction in Svensk.)
:
: Warning: When Bret Douglas comes on next April 1 with his annual anti-Canon
: screed and promise to switch to Nikon, take a good, thoughtful look at the
: calendar before you respond. :^)

Sorry, I guess it was Dave who was ribbing you. Sid, like me, was trying to
help you see the light. ;^)

Bob
 
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Sandman
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      08-20-2013
In article <2013081914085053144-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

> > Content perhaps, not context. The context was what I wrote.
> >
> > Even if he intentionally made a joke (which I *highly* doubt given his
> > poor spelling and grammar record), that doesn't change the very fact
> > that the sentence is grammatically invalid, even if intentional, which I
> > correctly pointed out.

>
> The intentional bad grammar was the essence of the joke, poking fun at
> himself and the Royal family. It was meant to be blatantly
> grammatically incorrect. His intent to make a joke has been obvious to
> all except you.


Sorry, I don't buy it.

> Dave actually got through that particular response to your grammatical
> error quite well. Then when he inserted some humor, which you did not
> recognize, he even showed his intent by punctuating with an appropriate
> "smiley face" emoticon.
>
> You just didn't get the joke then, or now. His past record of poor
> spelling, bad typing, fractured phraseology, and fractured thinking
> just didn't apply in this case.


No joking in the world makes this a valid sentence:

"Nice pics pity you don't speak proper english like what me and the
queen do"

Mixing tenses, missing punctuation, missing capitalisation.
It's akin to making a cultural reference joke like this:

"Ay, I've gone and lose me marbles, said the leprechaun"

The usage of "me" is the cultural/idiom part, the incorrect usage of
"lose" is just bad grammar - in spite of the bad grammar otherwise being
part of the joke.

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Sandman
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      08-20-2013
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
Robert Coe <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> : Also note the punctuation and capitalisation:
> :
> : Drunk Dave:
> : "Nice pics pity you don't speak proper english like what me and the
> : queen do"
> :
> : Actual English:
> : "Nice pics. Pity you don't speak proper English like me and the
> : Queen"
> :
> : I'm not an expert, but I'm not stupid either. There is a middle road
>
> Jonas, you're digging yourself a hole! Sid is letting you have it (with
> impeccable grammatical precision) in a recognizably non-RP British dialect.
> (Think Landsmål vs Rijksmål, I don't know whether there's an equivalent
> distinction in Svensk.)


I'm the first to admit to being wrong when being shown valid support for
the opposing view. Obviously that hasn't happened here. The only
reference has been pointing to some british expression "like what me and
the missus does" while at the same time ignoring the other grammatical
and structural errors in the original quote.

Not only isn't Dave from UK (as far as I know), but he is mixing tenses
and missing punctuation and capitalisation. I have no idea why anyone,
sid included, would look at that sentence and actually argue that it is
grammatically and structurally correct even if considering a cultural
reference.

As I said in another response, it's akin to writing:

"I've gone and lose me marbles, said the leprechaun"

Even if bad grammar is part of the reference, mixing tenses is not.

Plus, the person that pointed out the supposed cultural reference
curiously had to change it a bit from Daves version so as to not mix
tenses. That sort of proves my point, sid's insistance notwithstanding.

Again, if sid (or anyone) could offer some form of reference where
mixing tenses is part of the cultural reference, then sure. As it is,
Google itself has no knowledge about this cultural reference. It seems
no one in the world saw fit to write it anywhere where Google could
catch it. Especially when adding the mixed tense.


--
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Sandman
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      08-20-2013
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
Robert Coe <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> : Jonas, you're digging yourself a hole! Sid is letting you have it (with
> : impeccable grammatical precision) in a recognizably non-RP British dialect.
> : (Think Landsmål vs Rijksmål, I don't know whether there's an equivalent
> : distinction in Svensk.)
> :
> : Warning: When Bret Douglas comes on next April 1 with his annual anti-Canon
> : screed and promise to switch to Nikon, take a good, thoughtful look at the
> : calendar before you respond. :^)
>
> Sorry, I guess it was Dave who was ribbing you. Sid, like me, was trying to
> help you see the light.


Well, it seems those that claim themselves to be English "experts" in
this group fail to provide much in the term of support for their claims.

As I've said, I have no problem admitting to missing a cultural
reference. That happens. Even so, with such a reference in mind, the
sentence was still riddled with grammatical and structural errors that
the fine people rushing headlong to support good old drunk Dave is
failing to account for


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Sandman
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      08-20-2013
In article <2013081922502551501-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

> >> Dave actually got through that particular response to your grammatical
> >> error quite well. Then when he inserted some humor, which you did not
> >> recognize, he even showed his intent by punctuating with an appropriate
> >> "smiley face" emoticon.
> >>
> >> You just didn't get the joke then, or now. His past record of poor
> >> spelling, bad typing, fractured phraseology, and fractured thinking
> >> just didn't apply in this case.

> >
> > No joking in the world makes this a valid sentence:
> >
> > "Nice pics pity you don't speak proper english like what me and the
> > queen do"
> >
> > Mixing tenses, missing punctuation, missing capitalisation.
> > It's akin to making a cultural reference joke like this:
> >
> > "Ay, I've gone and lose me marbles, said the leprechaun"
> >
> > The usage of "me" is the cultural/idiom part, the incorrect usage of
> > "lose" is just bad grammar - in spite of the bad grammar otherwise being
> > part of the joke.

>
> Darn! You really don't get it.
> The bad grammar is the joke.


Just repeating that claim doesn't make it come true. You would have an
easier time convincing me that his mixing of tense, missing punctuation
and missing capitalisation is part of the cultural reference if you
could show that the cultural reference always or often does this. The
only person in this group that has even spoke of this being a cultural
reference is Pensive Hamster, and he didn't mix tense in his reference
of it, curiously enough.

I'd be amazed if you could show this though, since Google seems
blissfully unaware of this supposed cultural reference. But I admit to
the *possibility* of it being a cultural reference. I'd be happy if
someone could find some form of reference to it though.

Again, given valid counter support, I would *GLADLY* admit that you are
correct. But so far, the support for mixing tense being part of this
cultural reference amounts to... nothing.

> Your scholarly ability to determine what is and is not correct grammar
> is irrelevant.


Not at all.

> Loosen up and see the joke for what is was, an attempt
> to place some humor on his spotlighting your obvious grammatical, or
> perhaps typo error when you wrote; "My and my family went to the small
> town of Nora,..."


Typo, yeah. Writing "My family and I" may be considered more correct,
but not from a grammatical viewpoint. Some would argue that the family
is the subject of the sentence and should thus be written first to be
correct, but there is no inherent rules that says that the family is the
subject and not me, it's up to the writer to determine.

Basically, the only "rule" here is an old standard of courtesy and
respect where you would mention others before yourself in sentences.
That is pretty dated though. It originates in French as far as I know,
where you would say "ma famille et moi" ("my family and me").

In Latin the convention was the opposite. Latin often doesn't require a
pronoun, but when it does, the convention is to start with the speaker
and move away: I, you, he, them etc.

It's funny, because Dave probably understood that it was a typo and
should be "Me and my family", since "My family and I" is a rather dated
way to express yourself, which is where the Queen reference came in -
even though he messed up the grammar in that sentence as a result

> BTW: Dave does reside on fair Albion, though you might well believe it
> to be more perfidious Albion than fair, somewhere near London I
> believe. I remain in California.


Oh, my mistake. I saw the time stamp of his post, which read:

Mon, 19 Aug 2013 05:29:03 -0700 (PDT)

And, stupidly enough I read that as:

Mon, 19 Aug 2013 05:29:03 +0700 (UTC)

Which would place him in America. My mistake.

(see, no problem admitting to mistakes when there is support for me
being wrong)


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Sandman[.net]
 
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Sandman
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      08-20-2013
In article <2013082000340044897-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

> >> Darn! You really don't get it.
> >> The bad grammar is the joke.

> >
> > Just repeating that claim doesn't make it come true. You would have an
> > easier time convincing me that his mixing of tense, missing punctuation
> > and missing capitalisation is part of the cultural reference if you
> > could show that the cultural reference always or often does this. The
> > only person in this group that has even spoke of this being a cultural
> > reference is Pensive Hamster, and he didn't mix tense in his reference
> > of it, curiously enough.
> >
> > I'd be amazed if you could show this though, since Google seems
> > blissfully unaware of this supposed cultural reference. But I admit to
> > the *possibility* of it being a cultural reference. I'd be happy if
> > someone could find some form of reference to it though.


No? Figures.

> > which is where the Queen reference came in -
> > even though he messed up the grammar in that sentence as a result

>
> He meant to mess up the grammar. That was the deliberate injection of
> humor you refuse to accept.


And you refuse to support. Stop making claims you refuse to support.



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Sandman
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      08-20-2013
In article <2013082001160883871-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

> > And you refuse to support. Stop making claims you refuse to support.

>
> WTF are you talking about? There is nothing to support. You fail to see
> the joke, which is somehow lost in translation.


I have already conceded that I missed the (supposed) joke, you are the
one that claims that the joke, being a reference to a cultural
expression, is always or often written with missing punctuation, missing
capitalisation and mixed tense:

Savageduck
<2013081922502551501-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>
"Darn! You really don't get it. The bad grammar is the joke."

I am claiming that I don't believe that these are part of the joke, and
you insist that they are, yet you provide nothing to support that claim.

> BTW: Here is a variation of the joke.
> <http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/visiting-the-queen/n12944/>


I can't access SNL video due to country restrictions, but I trust this
is the clip you are in reference to:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m17M_rv9Xv8

(the description in your link matches the events in the youtube clip)

And you are going to have to help me out here - where in this clip does
anyone use the expression "like what me and the X do" or a version of
it? Or did you just google for a clip that had something remotely to do
with how the Queen speaks?



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Whisky-dave
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      08-20-2013
On Tuesday, 20 August 2013 10:44:41 UTC+1, Sandman wrote:


> And you are going to have to help me out here


But I don;t know where teh nearest asylum is to you ;-P

>- where in this clip does
>
> anyone use the expression "like what me and the X do" or a version of
>
> it? Or did you just google for a clip that had something remotely to do
>
> with how the Queen speaks?


You could try Morecambe and Wise a comedy due in the UK in the 70s, I thinkit was enieW that came out with "Like wot I wrote" when refering to writing plays and scripts. And I think it was ericM that used a phrase such as I speak the queens english like wot she does.

Maybe we can discuse Kirk, Boldley going where no man has gone before, shouldn't that really be, to go boldley where no man has gone before.



Well done to those that got it, shame about the other(s).

 
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PeterN
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      08-20-2013
On 8/20/2013 7:00 AM, Eric Stevens wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Aug 2013 07:23:17 +0200, Sandman <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>> In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
>> Robert Coe <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>
>>> : Jonas, you're digging yourself a hole! Sid is letting you have it (with
>>> : impeccable grammatical precision) in a recognizably non-RP British dialect.
>>> : (Think Landsmål vs Rijksmål, I don't know whether there's an equivalent
>>> : distinction in Svensk.)
>>> :
>>> : Warning: When Bret Douglas comes on next April 1 with his annual anti-Canon
>>> : screed and promise to switch to Nikon, take a good, thoughtful look at the
>>> : calendar before you respond. :^)
>>>
>>> Sorry, I guess it was Dave who was ribbing you. Sid, like me, was trying to
>>> help you see the light.

>>
>> Well, it seems those that claim themselves to be English "experts" in
>> this group fail to provide much in the term of support for their claims.
>>
>> As I've said, I have no problem admitting to missing a cultural
>> reference. That happens. Even so, with such a reference in mind, the
>> sentence was still riddled with grammatical and structural errors that
>> the fine people rushing headlong to support good old drunk Dave is
>> failing to account for

>
> ... *are* failing to account for. 'Fine people' are plural and 'is' is
> singular.
>
> Somebody tell him.
>


A few minutes ago, I hinted at that in another thread.

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