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Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability

 
 
Arne Vajhøj
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      08-17-2013
On 8/16/2013 5:20 AM, Richard Maher wrote:
> On 8/15/2013 7:48 AM, Qu0ll wrote:
>> "Arne Vajhøj" wrote in message
>> news:520c1295$0$304$(E-Mail Removed)...
>>
>>> Applets are not a priority any longer.
>>>
>>> But you can use JavaFX in applets too!

>>
>> In theory that is true but in practice the browser vendors are so
>> "anti-plugin" and especially "anti-Java" that such a deployment method
>> has no future.

>
> Let me make this clear ***ORACLE*** and not any browser supplier is the
> biggest obstacle and pulled ham-string that Applets have


Oracle is a business.

Oracle does not make any money from applet technology.

Arne


 
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Arne Vajhøj
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      08-17-2013
On 8/16/2013 4:58 AM, Richard Maher wrote:
> On 8/15/2013 7:05 AM, Qu0ll wrote:
>>
>>> A mobile browser that supports Applets would be REALLY useful though!

>>
>> Really? Are you *still* flogging the dead Applet horse?
>>

>
> Unlike JavaFX, Applets add value to the client. Functionality that is
> simply unavailable erstwhile.


There are some alternatives.

You may not like them, but they are still there.

Arne


 
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Arved Sandstrom
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      08-17-2013
On 08/16/2013 09:24 PM, Qu0ll wrote:
> "Martin Gregorie" wrote in message news:kumc8d$7am$(E-Mail Removed)...
>
>> Agreed. The observation that "a 'Real Programmer' can write FORTRAN in
>> any language" is still true.

>
> I agree with you Martin on this point and also with Arved on the essence
> of his prior post.
>
> Bad programmers will be bad programmers in any language.
>
> I just think I would be far more productive coding in Java than I ever
> would be in JavaScript and not just because of the nature of the
> languages but also because of the tools, editors, IDEs etc. that are
> more advanced and work better with Java. Also, the Java Platform has
> such an incredible amount of additional useful, mature functionality
> that I would be continually writing from scratch in a pure JavaScript
> application (or C++ or just about any other language for that matter).
>
> --
> And loving it,
>
> -Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
> _________________________________________________
> http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed)
> [Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me]


A programmer is typically more productive if they specialize in just a
few languages, although I think they should know a lot. There are dozens
of languages out there that have adequate tools support and good
libraries, IMO, so that's not really the factor. What it comes down to
is high proficiency with 2-4 languages.

Last 5 years, for example, most everything I've done was Java and C#.
Those are my bread and butter. But I was pretty proud of a week-long
firefighting emergency project I knocked out a week ago that was pure
Perl, and it was the right tool for the job...although God help me, I
used vi for the editing. And a couple of years ago I did a bit of C, and
last year a bit of Scala. I'm talking production work here, not dabbling.

But I saw a guy we brought in beginning of the year buzzsaw his way
through PHP, and I've seen guys do that with Javascript, and I've seen
people solve a problem very quickly with F# where it would take me 5x as
long with the same language. Not because I'm stupid, but I don't have
the time to learn everything. And you're right, they know the toolsets.
Where you're wrong is that the toolsets and libraries do exist for
almost everything you've heard of. Haskell? You need an IDE and build
system? Get Leksah and the Haskell Platform. J, which is quite obscure?
Not to worry - very deep tools support. There is good tools support for
Fortran - I'll make Martin happy by stating that I still write programs
in it.

And Javascript has that support too. So does C++ - if you're writing
from scratch in C++ these days you probably didn't look hard enough.

I'm with you, though, on one point - I am simply way more productive in
Java than in all but 2 or 3 other languages. Not short term, but long
term. And to no small degree because so many other people know it and
use it.

Java is a good solid GP language. Note I don't say OO or anything else,
I think it's a good general purpose language.

AHS

--
When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign:
that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.
-- Jonathan Swift
 
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Arne Vajhøj
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      08-17-2013
On 8/16/2013 5:06 AM, Richard Maher wrote:
> On 8/15/2013 7:28 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>
>> JavaFX support FXML, JavaScript and CSS3.

>
> And up until v2.0 mandate some *******s proprietary scripting language
> IIRC?


JavaFX 1.x used FXScript.

In many ways a very interesting language. The mix of declarative
and imperative style was interesting, the variable bind was interesting
etc..

But with 2.x Oracle chose the more standard path led by Adobe and MS
of a ML and standard language.

>> JavaFX support HTML5, Javascript and CSS3 in embedded browser.

>
> What value does it add except letting a bunch of fat middle-aged Java
> programmers pretend that modern GUIs and convergence still involves
> their new-COBOL?


The ability to reuse web artifacts in a desktop app can be
quite useful.

>> But you can use JavaFX in applets too!

>
> I'd rather use Python, Ruby etc


You can use Python and Ruby in applets.

> Too me Applets are for infrastructure the GUI is HTML5, CSS3, and
> Javascript.


Which is a probably a bit rare, but it does make sense.

Arne

 
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Arne Vajhøj
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      08-17-2013
On 8/16/2013 5:29 AM, Qu0ll wrote:
> "Richard Maher" wrote in message news:kukq2v$jfs$(E-Mail Removed)...
>
>> And up until v2.0 mandate some *******s proprietary scripting language
>> IIRC?

>
> Yes but that was literally years ago.


A year is not that long time in some contexts.

> JFX 8 is due in early 2014.


Note that it is 1->2->8 so the jump is not as big as the version
number jump indicates.

>> I wish you why but IMnsHO JavaFX was still-born with Silverlight and
>> faces a similar future. Maybe that's why I just saw Larry crying into
>> his beer on CBS about those "evil" Google guys. "Boo whoooo, they
>> can't just copy Java sniff sniff".

>
> No, not still-born at all. Flash and Silverlight, both of which are
> correctly categorised as dead or dying, do not actually compete with
> JavaFX as they are primarily browser-based and relying on plug-ins.
> JavaFX already runs on the desktop and in many embedded environments and
> soon will run on iOS and Android. JavaFX has a very strong future.


Allow us to be skeptical.

Java GUI has never been a success before - not that likely that JavaFX
will change it.

>> What value does it add except letting a bunch of fat middle-aged Java
>> programmers pretend that modern GUIs and convergence still involves
>> their new-COBOL?

>
> Unfair and way off the mark. Java is not and never will be the "new
> COBOL". It is still extremely vibrant and evolving; JavaFX in particular.


Eventually it will.

It is not realistic to expect any programming language to stay around
forever as mainstream.

> HTML5 is MASSIVELY OVER-HYPED!


True.

But if the hype drives senior management investment decisions, then ...

Arne


 
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Arne Vajhøj
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      08-17-2013
On 8/16/2013 8:24 PM, Qu0ll wrote:
> "Martin Gregorie" wrote in message news:kumc8d$7am$(E-Mail Removed)...
>
>> Agreed. The observation that "a 'Real Programmer' can write FORTRAN in
>> any language" is still true.

>
> I agree with you Martin on this point and also with Arved on the essence
> of his prior post.
>
> Bad programmers will be bad programmers in any language.
>
> I just think I would be far more productive coding in Java than I ever
> would be in JavaScript and not just because of the nature of the
> languages but also because of the tools, editors, IDEs etc. that are
> more advanced and work better with Java. Also, the Java Platform has
> such an incredible amount of additional useful, mature functionality
> that I would be continually writing from scratch in a pure JavaScript
> application (or C++ or just about any other language for that matter).


You can do JS dev in Eclipse and JS runs fine on the JVM.



Arne


 
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Richard Maher
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      08-17-2013
On 8/17/2013 9:55 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 8/16/2013 5:20 AM, Richard Maher wrote:
>> On 8/15/2013 7:48 AM, Qu0ll wrote:
>>> "Arne Vajhøj" wrote in message
>>> news:520c1295$0$304$(E-Mail Removed)...
>>>
>>>> Applets are not a priority any longer.
>>>>
>>>> But you can use JavaFX in applets too!
>>>
>>> In theory that is true but in practice the browser vendors are so
>>> "anti-plugin" and especially "anti-Java" that such a deployment method
>>> has no future.

>>
>> Let me make this clear ***ORACLE*** and not any browser supplier is the
>> biggest obstacle and pulled ham-string that Applets have

>
> Oracle is a business.
>
> Oracle does not make any money from applet technology.


How much do they make from JavaFX?


>
> Arne
>
>


Cheers Richard Maher

 
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Arne Vajhøj
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      08-19-2013
On 8/16/2013 11:26 PM, Richard Maher wrote:
> On 8/17/2013 9:55 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 8/16/2013 5:20 AM, Richard Maher wrote:
>>> On 8/15/2013 7:48 AM, Qu0ll wrote:
>>>> "Arne Vajhøj" wrote in message
>>>> news:520c1295$0$304$(E-Mail Removed)...
>>>>
>>>>> Applets are not a priority any longer.
>>>>>
>>>>> But you can use JavaFX in applets too!
>>>>
>>>> In theory that is true but in practice the browser vendors are so
>>>> "anti-plugin" and especially "anti-Java" that such a deployment method
>>>> has no future.
>>>
>>> Let me make this clear ***ORACLE*** and not any browser supplier is the
>>> biggest obstacle and pulled ham-string that Applets have

>>
>> Oracle is a business.
>>
>> Oracle does not make any money from applet technology.

>
> How much do they make from JavaFX?


That is a very good question.

My assumption will be that Oracle will not make any
money from JavaFX at all.

But the calendar says 2013 now.

When SUN started the JavaFX project back in 2007 the world
was different.

Adobe and MS were quite successful with Flex and SL for RIA. And
they were actually selling development tools and server side
stuff for it.

Well - the "HTML5 wave" killed that business opportunity.

The new smart touch screen smartphones and tablets was just
around the corner and a touch screen friendly Java GUI API
could make Java the standard on those and be the foundation
for a lot of business.

Well - Google chose their own Java GUI API for Android, so
no business there either.

But I am sure that back in 2007 then JavaFX looked not only
as a technical interesting project but also as a commercial
interesting project.

Arne





 
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Arne Vajhøj
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      08-19-2013
On 8/16/2013 9:59 PM, Arved Sandstrom wrote:
> Java is a good solid GP language. Note I don't say OO or anything else,
> I think it's a good general purpose language.


I would put it this way: unless you have specific reasons to prefer
another language then Java is a good choice.

Arne


 
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Richard Maher
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      08-19-2013
On 8/19/2013 9:33 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> Oracle does not make any money from applet technology.

>>
>> How much do they make from JavaFX?

>
> That is a very good question.
>
> My assumption will be that Oracle will not make any
> money from JavaFX at all.
>
> But the calendar says 2013 now.


Hold on Arne! Please put those goal posts down long enough to
acknowledge that what is to follow is a stream of subjective time-warped
platitudes that somehow seek to justify any continued investment
(user-time or Oracle-money) in a product that you personally like - JavaFX.

Conversely you are full of FUD for a much more worthy and feature rich
architecture that you are less fond of - Applets.

Ok, back to memory lane:-

>
> When SUN started the JavaFX project back in 2007 the world
> was different.
>
> Adobe and MS were quite successful with Flex and SL for RIA. And
> they were actually selling development tools and server side
> stuff for it.
>
> Well - the "HTML5 wave" killed that business opportunity.
>
> The new smart touch screen smartphones and tablets was just
> around the corner and a touch screen friendly Java GUI API
> could make Java the standard on those and be the foundation
> for a lot of business.
>
> Well - Google chose their own Java GUI API for Android, so
> no business there either.
>
> But I am sure that back in 2007 then JavaFX looked not only
> as a technical interesting project but also as a commercial
> interesting project.


And trying to make the OP's selection easier and bring this back
on-topic that me re-iterate that JavaFX is a dead-end unless it is 2007
where you live. Actually it was a pile of shite back then too!

This is why no one has done anything with it in 6 years.
>
> Arne
>
>


Cheers Richard Maher
>
>
>


PS. Came across this today following up the Geolocation stuff: -
https://wiki.mozilla.org/WebAPI
https://wiki.mozilla.org/Kilimanjaro

Don't spend a lot of time of on them but it's worth while being aware!

I'm sure you can suck some of your customers in to paying big bickies
for a dead-end technology for a while just because you're all too afraid
to leave the warm and fuzzies of a Java UI, but it's "when" not "if".

Now if we can only get rid of that useless prick Larry put in charge of
Applets then Java may still have a presence on the client!

 
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