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Buying new digital camera

 
 
J. Clarke
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      07-03-2013
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>, http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed)
says...
>
> On 7/3/2013 10:45 AM, Tony Cooper wrote:
> > On Wed, 3 Jul 2013 07:23:24 -0700 (PDT), Whisky-dave
> > <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> >
> >>> I'm not sure what your objection is here. In a big box store, the
> >>>
> >>> cameras do not have an SD card in them. The user can bring their own.
> >>
> >> I guess they can, they could bring their own battery too.

> >
> > That's a bit far-fetched. The shopper would not know what battery to
> > bring and wouldn't be likely to own a proprietary battery to work in
> > the camera.
> >
> >> But I'd find it a little strange that a big box store couldn't have a few 2GB cards laying around.

> >
> > In a big box store, the SD card would likely disappear the first day.
> >>
> >>>
> >>> The demo models in a camera store would not all have SD cards
> >>>
> >>> inserted. The store wouldn't put SD cards in 10 or 15 demo cameras.
> >>>
> >>> The sales clerk can insert one,
> >>
> >> Obvioulsy some cameras use diffrernt cards, but I think teh majority are SD but
> >> I'm not sure if they are all formated in the same way or whether a SD card from
> >> a canon will work in a Nikon without re-formating, and can teh picures be view
> >> in camera when taken on another camera.
> >> Just curious about the last bit.

> >
> > My SD cards can be interchanged between my Nikons and my Fuji. Both
> > cameras have a "reformat" option in the menu. I reformat in-camera,
> > but I could reformat as part of the downloading process. I don't do
> > that because I want the images retained on the card until I'm
> > absolutely sure they have been downloaded.
> >
> > That's an interesting point, though, about viewing. My Fuji will not
> > display the .NEF images taken on my Nikon. It shows "no images" when
> > there may be a number of images on the SD card. My Nikon, though,
> > will display the .jpg images taken when the card was used in the Fuji.
> > I have not noticed what happens when I use the Fuji in RAW and then
> > put that card into a Nikon, nor have I tried viewing .jpg taken on a
> > Nikon in the Fuji.
> >
> > My guess is that any camera will show a .jpg taken on any other
> > camera, but not RAW formats.
> >>
> >> No but you can take as long as you like from minuites to days comparing
> >> dpreview or other sites. I can also see test of ISO performance something
> >> I doubt I could do in store.

> >
> > There is no one way to fully evaluate any camera you're interested in
> > buying. The best evaluation is a combination of sources.
> >

>
> I have a quick & dirty way to do some testing, based on the assumption
> that every store has shelves and labels. Do all tests in the same order.
> You can line up on the shelves and displays. Quickly determine barrel
> and/or pin cushion distortion. Then test the ISO noise by pointing at
> the ceiling at various ISO levels. close focus test by reading the label
> on the counter. Then take you card home and evaluate.


And if you are buying a camera to be used taking pictures of blueprints
under a desk lamp for espionage purposes that might tell you all you
need to know.





 
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J. Clarke
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      07-03-2013
In article <2013070309221750878-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com says...
>
> On 2013-07-03 05:58:32 -0700, Whisky-dave <(E-Mail Removed)> said:
> >
> > How about amazon ?
> > And if the manufactuer wanted to make more profit perhaps they
> > shouldn't sell so cheaply to the large retailers.
> > As I say can you explain why Aple aren;t losing money due to amazon or
> > the big box shifters, knowing that might give some clues to how to run
> > a buisness rather than how to turn a quick profit.

>
> How about Amazon?
> Amazon isn't just a monolithic online vendor. It also acts as a
> clearing house and shop window for small vendors.
> I bought my iPad2 from an Amazon vendor, just after the announcement of
> the iPad3. As a result I was able to buy a 64GB iPad2 for $260 less
> than I would have had to pay buying direct from Apple.
> My wallet feels no shame buying stuff from Amazon. I have found varying
> prices for items such as CF and SDHC card from several different Amazon
> vendors. So when shopping at Amazon, it is always best to dig a little
> deeper than the first price that shows up, remembering that Amazon
> maintains a pretty good reputation when it comes to returns and
> customer support.


I presume the "Aple" in question is "Apple" the computer and phone and
whatnot company. If so, they are a manufacturer. Any time anybody
sells one of their products Apple makes a profit. If Apple sells it
directly then they make more of a profit than if they sell it to a
retailer like Amazon, but they make their money either way.

 
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PeterN
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      07-03-2013
On 7/3/2013 1:02 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> In article <(E-Mail Removed)>, (E-Mail Removed)
> says...
>>
>> On 7/3/2013 10:45 AM, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>> On Wed, 3 Jul 2013 07:23:24 -0700 (PDT), Whisky-dave
>>> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> I'm not sure what your objection is here. In a big box store, the
>>>>>
>>>>> cameras do not have an SD card in them. The user can bring their own.
>>>>
>>>> I guess they can, they could bring their own battery too.
>>>
>>> That's a bit far-fetched. The shopper would not know what battery to
>>> bring and wouldn't be likely to own a proprietary battery to work in
>>> the camera.
>>>
>>>> But I'd find it a little strange that a big box store couldn't have a few 2GB cards laying around.
>>>
>>> In a big box store, the SD card would likely disappear the first day.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The demo models in a camera store would not all have SD cards
>>>>>
>>>>> inserted. The store wouldn't put SD cards in 10 or 15 demo cameras.
>>>>>
>>>>> The sales clerk can insert one,
>>>>
>>>> Obvioulsy some cameras use diffrernt cards, but I think teh majority are SD but
>>>> I'm not sure if they are all formated in the same way or whether a SD card from
>>>> a canon will work in a Nikon without re-formating, and can teh picures be view
>>>> in camera when taken on another camera.
>>>> Just curious about the last bit.
>>>
>>> My SD cards can be interchanged between my Nikons and my Fuji. Both
>>> cameras have a "reformat" option in the menu. I reformat in-camera,
>>> but I could reformat as part of the downloading process. I don't do
>>> that because I want the images retained on the card until I'm
>>> absolutely sure they have been downloaded.
>>>
>>> That's an interesting point, though, about viewing. My Fuji will not
>>> display the .NEF images taken on my Nikon. It shows "no images" when
>>> there may be a number of images on the SD card. My Nikon, though,
>>> will display the .jpg images taken when the card was used in the Fuji.
>>> I have not noticed what happens when I use the Fuji in RAW and then
>>> put that card into a Nikon, nor have I tried viewing .jpg taken on a
>>> Nikon in the Fuji.
>>>
>>> My guess is that any camera will show a .jpg taken on any other
>>> camera, but not RAW formats.
>>>>
>>>> No but you can take as long as you like from minuites to days comparing
>>>> dpreview or other sites. I can also see test of ISO performance something
>>>> I doubt I could do in store.
>>>
>>> There is no one way to fully evaluate any camera you're interested in
>>> buying. The best evaluation is a combination of sources.
>>>

>>
>> I have a quick & dirty way to do some testing, based on the assumption
>> that every store has shelves and labels. Do all tests in the same order.
>> You can line up on the shelves and displays. Quickly determine barrel
>> and/or pin cushion distortion. Then test the ISO noise by pointing at
>> the ceiling at various ISO levels. close focus test by reading the label
>> on the counter. Then take you card home and evaluate.

>
> And if you are buying a camera to be used taking pictures of blueprints
> under a desk lamp for espionage purposes that might tell you all you
> need to know.
>
>

I said quick & dirty, not complete.


--
PeterN
 
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Tony Cooper
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      07-03-2013
On Wed, 3 Jul 2013 11:36:13 -0400, "J. Clarke" <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:

>>
>> Reviews says very little. People generally write reviews when unhappy
>> about a product, less so when happy about a product.

>
>So why does the Canon 60D have 437 5-star reviews, 72 4-star reviews, 22
>3-star reviews, 11 2-star reviews, and 12 1-star reviews? Are you
>saying that all those 5-star reviewers were "unhappy about the product"?


I feel that user reviews should be taken with a grain of salt. While
some people are conscientious about reporting fair information, a
dissatisfied user is more apt to complete a review than a satisfied
user. The satisfied user got what he wanted, and considers that the
end of the transaction.

I submit very few reviews of products I purchased. I guess I'm lazy
in this respect. I *expect* the product to do what it's advertised to
do.

>Talking down the competition is in general poor salesmanship. When you
>get a salesman like that, tell him to read some Zig Ziglar. He'll
>either do it and maybe improve his life a bit, or not and continue to
>lose sales.


Boy, there's a name from the past. When I first started at the
Tribune in Chicago in 1960, the Trib hired Zig to give a presentation
to all employees. He did a full day with the employees broken up into
groups because the area wouldn't hold all at once.

He was motivational with that deep, booming voice. Zig died at 86
last year. Later in his life he got on a Christian right-wing
Republican kick, but that wasn't part of the presentation I attended.

I haven't read any of his books, but I suppose his advice holds today.
He really just covered basic techniques, but he presented them with
style.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando FL
 
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Tony Cooper
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      07-03-2013
On Wed, 3 Jul 2013 11:36:13 -0400, "J. Clarke" <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:

>Any business that doesn't value its customers ultimately gets what it
>deserves.


That's a pretty pat statement. It's true, but it doesn't say
anything.

The company neither gives the impression of valuing nor disrespecting
the customer. It's the employees, and specifically the employees who
deal with customers, that give the impression.

The fault in many large businesses is that upper management does value
the customer and wants the customer treated right, but they are
unaware of what goes on at the line level and make no effort to put
any system in place to determine how their customers are treated.

Some companies do, though. They hire "secret shoppers" to report back
on how they're treated. They are pro-active in learning about their
customer's experiences instead of depending on unsolicited reviews and
complaint letters. Often, middle-management people block the top
executives from hearing about problems. They feel if they pass along
that complaint letter or phone call, that they will be the ones
blamed.

While I only watched it once, that television program "Undercover
Boss" where the top guy in a company goes undercover to work in his
own company showed how revealing it can be for a boss to see how his
own company deals with customers.

Periodically, it would be informative for a person like Hubert Joly
(CEO of Best Buy) to go into his stores and act like a regular
customer. I suspect some changes might be made.


--
Tony Cooper - Orlando FL
 
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Tony Cooper
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      07-03-2013
On Wed, 3 Jul 2013 08:50:38 -0700 (PDT), Whisky-dave
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>On Tuesday, 2 July 2013 22:17:15 UTC+1, Tony Cooper wrote:
>
>
>>
>> The only time that I can think of that this would happen is if Nikon,
>>
>> or whomever makes the camera, has a promotion that the store or site
>>
>> doesn't honor.
>>
>>
>>
>> Can you provide an example of this?

>
>I had one example of a TV a couple of years ago.
>I was loking for a TV for my parents, I checked on-line foirst for amazon reviews (not that I always trust them) found a 32" LCD for about 320.
>So I checked locally using argo, which is a locally based chain box shifter, they had it for 550.
>
>
>Here's a camera comparision.
>-------------------------------------
>http://www.amazon.co.uk/Canon-EOS-Co...ds=canon+eos+m
>
>includes flash 350
>
>the flash seems to be about 120 elsewhere


I don't quite follow that. The 349.99 seems to be for the camera and
the flash, not just the flash. 349.99 = US$534. B&H offers the
camera at US$349 and the Speedlight 90EX for US$149.00 for a total of
about $500. We all know that UK prices are higher than US prices on
cameras, but this is less than 10% higher for the package you'd buy
compared to the package I'd buy.

I guess what you're pointing out is that London Camera Exchange is
selling the camera only for 350 (after cashback), but LCE is an
online seller as well as a b&m store. You'd have to buy the flash
separately from an LCE shop at 120/US$183.

What happens, at LCE, if you take in Amazon's listing and ask for a
free 90EX or a better deal? Some US stores will negotiate when you do
this.

Still, it's a concrete example and better than just claiming that
something unknown was $200 higher in a store than online.









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Tony Cooper - Orlando FL
 
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J. Clarke
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      07-03-2013
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>, tonycooper214
@gmail.com says...
>
> On Wed, 3 Jul 2013 11:36:13 -0400, "J. Clarke" <(E-Mail Removed)>
> wrote:
>
> >>
> >> Reviews says very little. People generally write reviews when unhappy
> >> about a product, less so when happy about a product.

> >
> >So why does the Canon 60D have 437 5-star reviews, 72 4-star reviews, 22
> >3-star reviews, 11 2-star reviews, and 12 1-star reviews? Are you
> >saying that all those 5-star reviewers were "unhappy about the product"?

>
> I feel that user reviews should be taken with a grain of salt. While
> some people are conscientious about reporting fair information, a
> dissatisfied user is more apt to complete a review than a satisfied
> user. The satisfied user got what he wanted, and considers that the
> end of the transaction.
>
> I submit very few reviews of products I purchased. I guess I'm lazy
> in this respect. I *expect* the product to do what it's advertised to
> do.


I agree that you have to be careful about the reviews. On the other
hand when I'm about to buy anything that costs more than 50 bucks or so
I will read the reviews. I'll start with the negatives--see if there's
a pattern of a particular type of failure for example, then if all looks
well there go up the line.

> >Talking down the competition is in general poor salesmanship. When you
> >get a salesman like that, tell him to read some Zig Ziglar. He'll
> >either do it and maybe improve his life a bit, or not and continue to
> >lose sales.

>
> Boy, there's a name from the past. When I first started at the
> Tribune in Chicago in 1960, the Trib hired Zig to give a presentation
> to all employees. He did a full day with the employees broken up into
> groups because the area wouldn't hold all at once.
>
> He was motivational with that deep, booming voice. Zig died at 86
> last year. Later in his life he got on a Christian right-wing
> Republican kick, but that wasn't part of the presentation I attended.
>
> I haven't read any of his books, but I suppose his advice holds today.
> He really just covered basic techniques, but he presented them with
> style.


I never heard him in person, just read some of his books. Fun reads
with useful advice.
 
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Tony Cooper
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      07-03-2013
On Wed, 03 Jul 2013 11:55:21 -0400, nospam <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:

>In article <(E-Mail Removed)>, Tony Cooper
><(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>> In a big box store, the SD card would likely disappear the first day.

>
>not if the security tether wraps around the card slot. or if there's
>security tape over the door. or glue.


How about welding? As long as we're thinking about gluing the card
slot closed (which means the demo unit can never be sold), let's go
all out and propose something even more preposterous.

The security tether attaches at the bottom of the camera. Usually
there's a holder that screws into the tripod screw opening. Looping
that around the card slot and fixing it in place would be quite a
trick.

I was wrong, by the way, to have suggested to Jake that he could flip
open the battery door on a display model to see what type of battery
was used. The tether connection blocks the battery door in most
cases.



--
Tony Cooper - Orlando FL
 
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Tony Cooper
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      07-03-2013
On Wed, 3 Jul 2013 14:47:30 -0400, "J. Clarke" <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:

>In article <(E-Mail Removed)>, tonycooper214
>@gmail.com says...
>>
>> On Wed, 3 Jul 2013 11:36:13 -0400, "J. Clarke" <(E-Mail Removed)>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >>
>> >> Reviews says very little. People generally write reviews when unhappy
>> >> about a product, less so when happy about a product.
>> >
>> >So why does the Canon 60D have 437 5-star reviews, 72 4-star reviews, 22
>> >3-star reviews, 11 2-star reviews, and 12 1-star reviews? Are you
>> >saying that all those 5-star reviewers were "unhappy about the product"?

>>
>> I feel that user reviews should be taken with a grain of salt. While
>> some people are conscientious about reporting fair information, a
>> dissatisfied user is more apt to complete a review than a satisfied
>> user. The satisfied user got what he wanted, and considers that the
>> end of the transaction.
>>
>> I submit very few reviews of products I purchased. I guess I'm lazy
>> in this respect. I *expect* the product to do what it's advertised to
>> do.

>
>I agree that you have to be careful about the reviews. On the other
>hand when I'm about to buy anything that costs more than 50 bucks or so
>I will read the reviews. I'll start with the negatives--see if there's
>a pattern of a particular type of failure for example, then if all looks
>well there go up the line.


The reviews I pay the most attention to are the reviews of hotels and
bed and breakfast places when we travel on vacation. If I see "roach
infested" or "located next door to an abattoir" in just one review, I
go the next listing. On vacation, where we're going to stay for a few
days in one place, I prefer the b&b or boutique hotel to the chain
hotel.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando FL
 
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Jake29
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      07-03-2013
Tony Cooper wrote:

> I was wrong, by the way, to have suggested to Jake that he could flip
> open the battery door on a display model to see what type of battery
> was used. The tether connection blocks the battery door in most
> cases.


That's true. And, on my first looks at in-store cameras that I did at a
local rather dumpy and disorganized Wal-Mart (before posting my original
post here), that was one of the problems I had. I couldn't tell what type
of battery each camera used because I couldn't open the battery compartment
door, and most didn't say much about the battery on the info card. So, that
was one of my frustrations in trying to figure out which camera I wanted.

And, since most or all of the cameras in my local Wal-Mart had tethers but
couldn't be turned on, I just assumed that's how it's done in most stores.
Now I know better and I'm much more comfortable with the whole camera
shopping process.


 
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