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Buying new digital camera

 
 
Whisky-dave
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Posts: n/a
 
      07-03-2013
On Tuesday, 2 July 2013 19:43:46 UTC+1, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Tue, 02 Jul 2013 10:36:44 -0400, nospam <(E-Mail Removed)>
>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> >In article <(E-Mail Removed)>, Tony Cooper

>
> ><(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>
> >

>
> >> >> I was in Target on Friday, and all their demo/display cameras were in

>
> >> >> anti-theft holders, on retractable cables and hooked up to a power

>
> >> >> supply system.

>
> >> >> ...and they had a good 60+ cameras to choose from.

>
> >> >

>
> >> >i was in best buy earlier today because it was next door to another

>
> >> >store i was going to, and took a look at the camera section.

>
> >> >

>
> >> >they were on tethers, but i'd estimate about 20-25% were non-functional

>
> >> >in one way or another, either missing batteries, no sd card

>
> >>

>
> >> I don't recall ever seeing a display camera with a SD card. It's

>
> >> kinda pointless because the SD card preserves the image taken and

>
> >> would have to be formatted by the clerks after use. I don't think, if

>
> >> I ran the store, I'd want images preserved for the next customer to

>
> >> see. I wouldn't want some customer taking photographs of small kids

>
> >> in the store and leaving them around.

>
> >>

>
> >> An SD card in a demo camera in a big box store is inviting theft since

>
> >> they can be easily palmed. Why anyone would bother is beyond me, but

>
> >> people do strange things.

>
> >

>
> >true but many cameras don't take photos without a card so the user

>
> >won't be inadvertently taking photos that aren't saved. some have an

>
> >option to disable that ('demo mode'), but how many customers are going

>
> >to know where that for each camera?

>
> >

>
> >if you don't know how to do that, then the camera is rather crippled.

>
> >you can see how it fits in your hand and zoom the lens and poke around

>
> >in the menus, but you can't take any photos, unless you happen to find

>
> >the proper setting, if there is one.

>
>
>
> I'm not sure what your objection is here. In a big box store, the
>
> cameras do not have an SD card in them. The user can bring their own.


I guess they can, they could bring their own battery too.
But I'd find it a little strange that a big box store couldn't have a few 2GB cards laying around.

>
> The demo models in a camera store would not all have SD cards
>
> inserted. The store wouldn't put SD cards in 10 or 15 demo cameras.
>
> The sales clerk can insert one,


Obvioulsy some cameras use diffrernt cards, but I think teh majority are SDbut I'm not sure if they are all formated in the same way or whether a SDcard from a canon will work in a Nikon without re-formating, and can teh picures be view in camera when taken on another camera.
Just curious about the last bit.


> or whether or the customer can bring one. My
>
> local camera stores will allow you to go outside (a clerk goes with
>
> you unless you're known there) and fire off shots on your own SD card.
>
> You can't do any of that if you're buying online.


No but you can take as long as you like from minuites to days comparing dpreview or other sites. I can also see test of ISO performance something I doubt I could do in store.


> See my other post on what the local situation is in more depth.


I'm not sure there are any local camera shops near me.


 
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Tony Cooper
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Posts: n/a
 
      07-03-2013
On Wed, 3 Jul 2013 07:23:24 -0700 (PDT), Whisky-dave
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>> I'm not sure what your objection is here. In a big box store, the
>>
>> cameras do not have an SD card in them. The user can bring their own.

>
>I guess they can, they could bring their own battery too.


That's a bit far-fetched. The shopper would not know what battery to
bring and wouldn't be likely to own a proprietary battery to work in
the camera.

>But I'd find it a little strange that a big box store couldn't have a few 2GB cards laying around.


In a big box store, the SD card would likely disappear the first day.
>
>>
>> The demo models in a camera store would not all have SD cards
>>
>> inserted. The store wouldn't put SD cards in 10 or 15 demo cameras.
>>
>> The sales clerk can insert one,

>
>Obvioulsy some cameras use diffrernt cards, but I think teh majority are SD but
>I'm not sure if they are all formated in the same way or whether a SD card from
>a canon will work in a Nikon without re-formating, and can teh picures be view
>in camera when taken on another camera.
>Just curious about the last bit.


My SD cards can be interchanged between my Nikons and my Fuji. Both
cameras have a "reformat" option in the menu. I reformat in-camera,
but I could reformat as part of the downloading process. I don't do
that because I want the images retained on the card until I'm
absolutely sure they have been downloaded.

That's an interesting point, though, about viewing. My Fuji will not
display the .NEF images taken on my Nikon. It shows "no images" when
there may be a number of images on the SD card. My Nikon, though,
will display the .jpg images taken when the card was used in the Fuji.
I have not noticed what happens when I use the Fuji in RAW and then
put that card into a Nikon, nor have I tried viewing .jpg taken on a
Nikon in the Fuji.

My guess is that any camera will show a .jpg taken on any other
camera, but not RAW formats.
>
>No but you can take as long as you like from minuites to days comparing
>dpreview or other sites. I can also see test of ISO performance something
>I doubt I could do in store.


There is no one way to fully evaluate any camera you're interested in
buying. The best evaluation is a combination of sources.

>> See my other post on what the local situation is in more depth.

>
>I'm not sure there are any local camera shops near me.
>

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando FL
 
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Whisky-dave
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Posts: n/a
 
      07-03-2013
On Tuesday, 2 July 2013 20:59:07 UTC+1, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Tue, 2 Jul 2013 20:06:37 +0200, Wolfgang Weisselberg
>
> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>
>
> >Tony Cooper <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>
> >[snip good advice]

>
> >

>
> >> Make sure the zoom control is smooth and easy for you to use. You

>
> >> should only be concerned about the *optical* zoom. The *digital* zoom

>
> >> is practically worthless.

>
> >

>
> >In layman's terms: digital zoom cuts away most of the image

>
> >(around the borders) and then makes the few remaining pixels

>
> >huge --- you won't get *any* more detail out of it, it just

>
> >needs more space.

>
> >

>
> >You can do the same on your computer: crop the image (cut away

>
> >all but a small part of the image) and then view it at 400%

>
> >or 800%.

>
> >

>
> >> I disagree with your preference about AA batteries,

>
> >

>
> >There's AA batteries, AA batteries and AA batteries and AA

>
> >batteries and AA batteries ... and AA batteries ...

>
>
>
> I understand that. My main point about AAs is that you can buy
>
> regular AAs just about anywhere and use them in a pinch. That may
>
> save a special moment or a necessary business shot.


What's required here is an exact comparision using the same camera which is pretty much impossible, unless you're just comparing AAs with rechargable AAs.
I also find that AAs take up more space and are heavier than a custom rechargable battery.
Some may think that AAs are a better choice because you can buy them anywhere, but I know of many exceptions,
Unless I had a really particualr use for a camera then perhasp AAs might be better but for me I prefer the custom recharables for convenience.


> It's better to carry spare charged batteries, but not everyone does
>
> that.


Going on longer journeys might mean taking the charge too.

>
> --
>
> Tony Cooper - Orlando FL


 
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J. Clarke
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Posts: n/a
 
      07-03-2013
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed) says...
>
> In article <020720131241241293%(E-Mail Removed)>,
> nospam <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
> > > > people can get a *lot* of information online, probably much more than
> > > > any salesperson could offer.
> > >
> > > Well, people *can*, but they're too lazy to do it. Proper research is
> > > what people could avoid by talking to the local camera shop.

> >
> > depends how much research they do.

>
> Most people do none. They want a TV/Stereo/camera, they may ask a friend
> but disregard the advice when the superstore has a device that fits the
> superflous critera they have but $500 cheaper than the quality brand the
> friend recommended.


And either it will be adequate for his purpose (the simple fact is that
any random camera you pull off the shelf at Best Buy will be adquate for
the purposes of most people--they are all vastly more capable than the
various Brownie Kodaks that served most families for much of the 20th
Century) or he'll learn more about his needs and be in a better position
to make an informed choice next time.

> > searching for an item on amazon and reading the reviews is easy.

>
> Reviews says very little. People generally write reviews when unhappy
> about a product, less so when happy about a product.


So why does the Canon 60D have 437 5-star reviews, 72 4-star reviews, 22
3-star reviews, 11 2-star reviews, and 12 1-star reviews? Are you
saying that all those 5-star reviewers were "unhappy about the product"?

> You should take
> advice from someone knowledgable that can take YOUR criteria into
> consideration.


While that's certainly worthwhile, it doesn't give you input from
hundreds of users of the product.

If one user out of 1500 says "it's a piece of crap, the lens fell off
three days after I got it", you can pretty much dismiss it as a fluke.
if 100 users out of a total of 150 say it you probably want to avoid the
product.

One thing that anybody who has survived grad school knows is that you
never rely on a single source if you have another option.

> > for cameras, dpreview has *very* thorough reviews.

>
> Indeed. But reading them amounts to that precious "research" that most
> people don't do. All my friends bought new cameras in the last ~5 years,
> not one of them knows anything about dpreview.com


Did you try to tell them about it?

> > > > plus, they want to make a sale, so they're not going to tell you about
> > > > everything, especially stuff they don't carry.
> > >
> > > That's true for the big super stores, not for the local merchants.
> > > They're happy to order any gear you want or need. They don't have huge
> > > specials on a specific gear that they will nag on you to get because
> > > that's where they get the biggest payoff. They value you as a customer
> > > and know that your loyalty is worth more than 5% margins on cheap gear.

> >
> > some might, but not all.

>
> Well, more so than the superstores.


Any business that doesn't value its customers ultimately gets what it
deserves.

> > i've been in stores that will talk down stuff they don't sell.

>
> Unsuccessful and stupid shop owners exists everywhere. I was in
> reference to the general small scale store.


Talking down the competition is in general poor salesmanship. When you
get a salesman like that, tell him to read some Zig Ziglar. He'll
either do it and maybe improve his life a bit, or not and continue to
lose sales.

> > i've been in stores that say incorrect things about a product, either
> > deliberately or because the salesperson is uninformed.

>
> I bet you get that more in superstores than in small stores. Which is my
> point. In fact, I don't think I've ever gotten knowledgable information
> from any sales person in a superstore, ever.


There's a saying in the computer business--"The difference between a
computer salesman and a used car salesman is that the used car salesman
_knows_ when he is lying". I think the same applies to cameras and any
other complex modern consumer product. You can't know everything about
everything.

> > i've also been in stores that say you need xyz, but we don't carry that
> > so go to so and so across town or just order it online.

>
> At which point, my local camera guy would say that he doesn't have that
> in stock and he'll be happy to order it for me.


Remember that the "We don't have that but Gimbel's does" approach can be
a powerful tool for building customer loyalty. You lose that sale but
may get others in the future. Of course this works best when you have
the kind of product line that garners repeat business--with cameras you
don't get much repeat business anymore--people buy one and use it until
it dies, which, if they don't drop it and the battery doesn't leak, can
be decades later.

> > > My local camera/computer/stereo guys has always bent over backwards to
> > > do proper research, find the best gear for my needs and kept in touch to
> > > see that I'm still happy with the purchase. You just don't get that from
> > > MediaMarkt (our Best Buy when it comes to electronic gear), where
> > > customer loyalty isn't worth as much because they have so many customers.

> >
> > that's unusual.

>
> Maybe you have more customer-oriented sales people in superstores in the
> states, here they are uninformed morons that have direct orders to sell
> some specific products where the store earns the most money.
>
> > > There is a place for everything, and I din't mind the competition, but I
> > > think it's sad when customers would rather save $10 than buy from a
> > > small dealer that knows what he's doing, which mans that he have to
> > > close shop.

> >
> > it's not about saving $10. if the difference is $10, i'll buy locally
> > because it's instant gratification and no worries about damage in
> > shipping or if someone has to be home to sign for it or if the box will
> > be left on the front steps in the rain, etc.

>
> Obviously it won't be $10 on a Nikon D800, but on accessories, memory
> cards, batteries and such.
>
> > many times, the difference is much more, often $100-200 and sometimes
> > even more. for that, i *will* buy online. that's money that can be
> > spent at a different local store, maybe a restaurant or something, so
> > in the end, the community still benefits, just not the stores with
> > ripoff prices.

>
> I wasn't in reference to stores with rip-off prices, though. If you were
> only talking about stores with rip-off prices, then I misunderstood you
> from the beginning.





 
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PeterN
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Posts: n/a
 
      07-03-2013
On 7/3/2013 10:45 AM, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Wed, 3 Jul 2013 07:23:24 -0700 (PDT), Whisky-dave
> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>>> I'm not sure what your objection is here. In a big box store, the
>>>
>>> cameras do not have an SD card in them. The user can bring their own.

>>
>> I guess they can, they could bring their own battery too.

>
> That's a bit far-fetched. The shopper would not know what battery to
> bring and wouldn't be likely to own a proprietary battery to work in
> the camera.
>
>> But I'd find it a little strange that a big box store couldn't have a few 2GB cards laying around.

>
> In a big box store, the SD card would likely disappear the first day.
>>
>>>
>>> The demo models in a camera store would not all have SD cards
>>>
>>> inserted. The store wouldn't put SD cards in 10 or 15 demo cameras.
>>>
>>> The sales clerk can insert one,

>>
>> Obvioulsy some cameras use diffrernt cards, but I think teh majority are SD but
>> I'm not sure if they are all formated in the same way or whether a SD card from
>> a canon will work in a Nikon without re-formating, and can teh picures be view
>> in camera when taken on another camera.
>> Just curious about the last bit.

>
> My SD cards can be interchanged between my Nikons and my Fuji. Both
> cameras have a "reformat" option in the menu. I reformat in-camera,
> but I could reformat as part of the downloading process. I don't do
> that because I want the images retained on the card until I'm
> absolutely sure they have been downloaded.
>
> That's an interesting point, though, about viewing. My Fuji will not
> display the .NEF images taken on my Nikon. It shows "no images" when
> there may be a number of images on the SD card. My Nikon, though,
> will display the .jpg images taken when the card was used in the Fuji.
> I have not noticed what happens when I use the Fuji in RAW and then
> put that card into a Nikon, nor have I tried viewing .jpg taken on a
> Nikon in the Fuji.
>
> My guess is that any camera will show a .jpg taken on any other
> camera, but not RAW formats.
>>
>> No but you can take as long as you like from minuites to days comparing
>> dpreview or other sites. I can also see test of ISO performance something
>> I doubt I could do in store.

>
> There is no one way to fully evaluate any camera you're interested in
> buying. The best evaluation is a combination of sources.
>


I have a quick & dirty way to do some testing, based on the assumption
that every store has shelves and labels. Do all tests in the same order.
You can line up on the shelves and displays. Quickly determine barrel
and/or pin cushion distortion. Then test the ISO noise by pointing at
the ceiling at various ISO levels. close focus test by reading the label
on the counter. Then take you card home and evaluate.



--
PeterN
 
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Whisky-dave
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Posts: n/a
 
      07-03-2013
On Tuesday, 2 July 2013 22:17:15 UTC+1, Tony Cooper wrote:


>
> The only time that I can think of that this would happen is if Nikon,
>
> or whomever makes the camera, has a promotion that the store or site
>
> doesn't honor.
>
>
>
> Can you provide an example of this?


I had one example of a TV a couple of years ago.
I was loking for a TV for my parents, I checked on-line foirst for amazon reviews (not that I always trust them) found a 32" LCD for about 320.
So I checked locally using argo, which is a locally based chain box shifter, they had it for 550.


Here's a camera comparision.
-------------------------------------
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Canon-EOS-Co...ds=canon+eos+m

includes flash 350

the flash seems to be about 120 elsewhere
-------------------------------------------
http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Produc...#pdpPromotions

excluding flash 400 but there are cash back options but not sure how they work.
----------------------------------------------
excluding flash 400 but 50 cash back
http://www.lcegroup.co.uk/CanonNew/C...ACK!_2313.html




So looks like buying on-line for this itemn will save about 70.
Not sure I'd want to go to a bricks and mortor store and pay 70 for nothing.

 
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nospam
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      07-03-2013
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>, Tony Cooper
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> In a big box store, the SD card would likely disappear the first day.


not if the security tether wraps around the card slot. or if there's
security tape over the door. or glue. at trade shows, the cameras often
have the card slots secured in one way or another.

big box stores manage to keep lenses on slrs, which are worth a *lot*
more than an sd card.

> My SD cards can be interchanged between my Nikons and my Fuji. Both
> cameras have a "reformat" option in the menu. I reformat in-camera,
> but I could reformat as part of the downloading process. I don't do
> that because I want the images retained on the card until I'm
> absolutely sure they have been downloaded.


the cards are fat32 (or fat16 on older cameras).

> That's an interesting point, though, about viewing. My Fuji will not
> display the .NEF images taken on my Nikon. It shows "no images" when
> there may be a number of images on the SD card. My Nikon, though,
> will display the .jpg images taken when the card was used in the Fuji.
> I have not noticed what happens when I use the Fuji in RAW and then
> put that card into a Nikon, nor have I tried viewing .jpg taken on a
> Nikon in the Fuji.


..nef is nikon's format so obviously, fuji won't show it (or any other
non-nikon camera), and fuji raw won't be shown in a nikon camera.

> My guess is that any camera will show a .jpg taken on any other
> camera, but not RAW formats.


a reasonable guess, but not always correct.

jpeg is standard although not all cameras will show a jpeg from another
camera (or from a computer). some look for metadata to see if it's
'their own'.
 
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nospam
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      07-03-2013
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>, J. Clarke
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> Any business that doesn't value its customers ultimately gets what it
> deserves.


exactly.
 
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Whisky-dave
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      07-03-2013
On Wednesday, 3 July 2013 16:47:03 UTC+1, PeterN wrote:
> On 7/3/2013 10:45 AM, Tony Cooper wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 3 Jul 2013 07:23:24 -0700 (PDT), Whisky-dave

>
> > <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>
> >

>
> >>> I'm not sure what your objection is here. In a big box store, the

>
> >>>

>
> >>> cameras do not have an SD card in them. The user can bring their own..

>
> >>

>
> >> I guess they can, they could bring their own battery too.

>
> >

>
> > That's a bit far-fetched. The shopper would not know what battery to

>
> > bring and wouldn't be likely to own a proprietary battery to work in

>
> > the camera.

>
> >

>
> >> But I'd find it a little strange that a big box store couldn't have a few 2GB cards laying around.

>
> >

>
> > In a big box store, the SD card would likely disappear the first day.

>
> >>

>
> >>>

>
> >>> The demo models in a camera store would not all have SD cards

>
> >>>

>
> >>> inserted. The store wouldn't put SD cards in 10 or 15 demo cameras.

>
> >>>

>
> >>> The sales clerk can insert one,

>
> >>

>
> >> Obvioulsy some cameras use diffrernt cards, but I think teh majority are SD but

>
> >> I'm not sure if they are all formated in the same way or whether a SD card from

>
> >> a canon will work in a Nikon without re-formating, and can teh picuresbe view

>
> >> in camera when taken on another camera.

>
> >> Just curious about the last bit.

>
> >

>
> > My SD cards can be interchanged between my Nikons and my Fuji. Both

>
> > cameras have a "reformat" option in the menu. I reformat in-camera,

>
> > but I could reformat as part of the downloading process. I don't do

>
> > that because I want the images retained on the card until I'm

>
> > absolutely sure they have been downloaded.

>
> >

>
> > That's an interesting point, though, about viewing. My Fuji will not

>
> > display the .NEF images taken on my Nikon. It shows "no images" when

>
> > there may be a number of images on the SD card. My Nikon, though,

>
> > will display the .jpg images taken when the card was used in the Fuji.

>
> > I have not noticed what happens when I use the Fuji in RAW and then

>
> > put that card into a Nikon, nor have I tried viewing .jpg taken on a

>
> > Nikon in the Fuji.

>
> >

>
> > My guess is that any camera will show a .jpg taken on any other

>
> > camera, but not RAW formats.

>
> >>

>
> >> No but you can take as long as you like from minuites to days comparing

>
> >> dpreview or other sites. I can also see test of ISO performance something

>
> >> I doubt I could do in store.

>
> >

>
> > There is no one way to fully evaluate any camera you're interested in

>
> > buying. The best evaluation is a combination of sources.

>
> >

>
>
>
> I have a quick & dirty way to do some testing, based on the assumption
>
> that every store has shelves and labels. Do all tests in the same order.
>
> You can line up on the shelves and displays. Quickly determine barrel
>
> and/or pin cushion distortion.


I assume you;'ll have a tripod too and that the lighting is good enough in teh store. I tried taking some picturewes in my lab the flourescant lights made gettoign a good picture more difficult adn if I were testing movioe mode it'd be hopeless. I rarely take photos under florescant light anyway.

> Then test the ISO noise by pointing at
>
> the ceiling at various ISO levels.


Ceilings have textures even a bit of colour or dirt not sure I'd wanht that variable when testing and as for teh floourescant lights ......

> close focus test by reading the label
>
> on the counter. Then take you card home and evaluate.

That could be vaild as you'd find out which camera was easist to hold for doing such things, but I'd prefer to use a tripod for such an evalution.

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> PeterN


 
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PeterN
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      07-03-2013
On 7/3/2013 11:55 AM, nospam wrote:
> In article <(E-Mail Removed)>, Tony Cooper
> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>> In a big box store, the SD card would likely disappear the first day.

>
> not if the security tether wraps around the card slot. or if there's
> security tape over the door. or glue. at trade shows, the cameras often
> have the card slots secured in one way or another.
>
> big box stores manage to keep lenses on slrs, which are worth a *lot*
> more than an sd card.
>
>> My SD cards can be interchanged between my Nikons and my Fuji. Both
>> cameras have a "reformat" option in the menu. I reformat in-camera,
>> but I could reformat as part of the downloading process. I don't do
>> that because I want the images retained on the card until I'm
>> absolutely sure they have been downloaded.

>
> the cards are fat32 (or fat16 on older cameras).
>
>> That's an interesting point, though, about viewing. My Fuji will not
>> display the .NEF images taken on my Nikon. It shows "no images" when
>> there may be a number of images on the SD card. My Nikon, though,
>> will display the .jpg images taken when the card was used in the Fuji.
>> I have not noticed what happens when I use the Fuji in RAW and then
>> put that card into a Nikon, nor have I tried viewing .jpg taken on a
>> Nikon in the Fuji.

>
> .nef is nikon's format so obviously, fuji won't show it (or any other
> non-nikon camera), and fuji raw won't be shown in a nikon camera.
>
>> My guess is that any camera will show a .jpg taken on any other
>> camera, but not RAW formats.

>
> a reasonable guess, but not always correct.
>
> jpeg is standard although not all cameras will show a jpeg from another
> camera (or from a computer). some look for metadata to see if it's
> 'their own'.
>


Depends on the show. At a trade only show, the serious attendees are
known in advance, and have appointments with the vendors, who let them
play to their hearts content. A serious attendee at a trade show is
there to work, and product comparison & evaluation is the whole purpose.
Vendors will not restrict evaluation for serious attendees.
Having said that, I once crashed a trade only, gourmet food show. But,
that is the exception.
PeterN
 
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