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Adobe goes into back-peddling panic mode

 
 
Tony Cooper
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      06-07-2013
On Fri, 07 Jun 2013 13:44:22 -0400, nospam <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:

>In article <(E-Mail Removed)>, Tony Cooper
><(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>> MBAs, and other management people who may not have this advanced
>> degree, *should* take over the function of "programmers" in business
>> decisions if those people are involved on the business side of the
>> organization. A programmer is a person who designs a computer program
>> to facilitate what other people decide needs to be accomplished.
>> Programmers do not originate the idea; they work to assigned tasks.

>
>wrong. so very wrong. programmers often originate the ideas (and
>implement them) and then other people decide what to do with those
>ideas.
>
>> They may say "We can add this feature", but - in that role - they are
>> just expanding the task given to them.

>
>nope, they often come up with most or all of the product, and then
>others decide if it's worth publishing and in what form.
>
>these days, an indie developer does it all.
>
>> A programmer need not - and usually doesn't - have any idea of the
>> function or objectives of the business. Tell a programmer that
>> something is needed to keep track of inventory, and he'll do it. He
>> doesn't need to know what the inventory does, who it is sold to, or
>> anything about the nature of the business other than the specifics of
>> what he's assigned to keep track of.

>
>you don't understand software development.


Your arrival in this thread is as expected as a morning bowel
movement.

"Programmer" is a job title. A person who develops software is not
going to have that job title. Many people have programming ability,
including some MBAs, but programmers are the mechanics of the field.

If I wanted to comment on program developers, I would have done so.
You're just hacking out a new garden path.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando FL
 
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PeterN
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Posts: n/a
 
      06-07-2013
On 6/7/2013 1:44 PM, nospam wrote:
> In article <(E-Mail Removed)>, Tony Cooper
> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>> MBAs, and other management people who may not have this advanced
>> degree, *should* take over the function of "programmers" in business
>> decisions if those people are involved on the business side of the
>> organization. A programmer is a person who designs a computer program
>> to facilitate what other people decide needs to be accomplished.
>> Programmers do not originate the idea; they work to assigned tasks.

>
> wrong. so very wrong. programmers often originate the ideas (and
> implement them) and then other people decide what to do with those
> ideas.
>
>> They may say "We can add this feature", but - in that role - they are
>> just expanding the task given to them.

>
> nope, they often come up with most or all of the product, and then
> others decide if it's worth publishing and in what form.
>
> these days, an indie developer does it all.
>
>> A programmer need not - and usually doesn't - have any idea of the
>> function or objectives of the business. Tell a programmer that
>> something is needed to keep track of inventory, and he'll do it. He
>> doesn't need to know what the inventory does, who it is sold to, or
>> anything about the nature of the business other than the specifics of
>> what he's assigned to keep track of.

>
> you don't understand software development.


Here's how it works, at least in custom designed software.
(simplified so you can understand it.)
Management makes a decision on what its needs are.
The business analyst creates a programming flow on how, if feasible to
implement, may even have to convince management to revise its requirements.
Programmers write the code for the implementation;
Business analyst tests the code,
>


BTW business analysts paid a lot more than programmers.



--
PeterN
 
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nospam
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Posts: n/a
 
      06-07-2013
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>, Tony Cooper
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> "Programmer" is a job title. A person who develops software is not
> going to have that job title.


someone who develops software is a programmer. just what do you think
they do, if not write programs?

the exact title means nothing. many programmers have creative titles,
rather than 'senior programmer' or something equally boring.

you're talking out your ass, again.

> Many people have programming ability,
> including some MBAs, but programmers are the mechanics of the field.


long ago maybe, but certainly not now.

you're wrong.
 
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nospam
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Posts: n/a
 
      06-07-2013
In article <51b2231e$0$10757$(E-Mail Removed)-secrets.com>, PeterN
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> Here's how it works, at least in custom designed software.
> (simplified so you can understand it.)
> Management makes a decision on what its needs are.
> The business analyst creates a programming flow on how, if feasible to
> implement, may even have to convince management to revise its requirements.
> Programmers write the code for the implementation;
> Business analyst tests the code,


there are companies who write to spec, but that's the minority of
programming.

typically, *both* programmers and management come up with ideas.
management generally wants the impossible and programmers bring it back
to reality. in no case does a business analyst, who hasn't a clue about
programming, come up with anything related to programming or
feasibility because it's not part of their skill set.

furthermore, business analysts do not test anything. that's sqa and
beta testers, who then submit bug reports back to the programmers who
then fix the bugs and release a new build to be tested.

other times, programmers themselves come up with the ideas and pitch
them to the higher-ups. for instance, google employees spend a portion
of their time working on any pet project they want. some of those pet
projects become real products, including gmail and google+ (originally
wave). those weren't ideas that management came up with. they were
ideas that programmers came up with.

> BTW business analysts paid a lot more than programmers.


no they definitely aren't. programmers can easily make quite a bit more
than any analyst and many times they can write their own ticket.
 
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Tony Cooper
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      06-07-2013
On Fri, 07 Jun 2013 14:15:03 -0400, nospam <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:

>In article <(E-Mail Removed)>, Tony Cooper
><(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>> "Programmer" is a job title. A person who develops software is not
>> going to have that job title.

>
>someone who develops software is a programmer. just what do you think
>they do, if not write programs?
>
>the exact title means nothing. many programmers have creative titles,
>rather than 'senior programmer' or something equally boring.
>
>you're talking out your ass, again.
>
>> Many people have programming ability,
>> including some MBAs, but programmers are the mechanics of the field.

>
>long ago maybe, but certainly not now.
>
>you're wrong.


If a person's job title is "programmer", he does programming. If he
does more than that, his job title will reflect that. Job titles,
like salary, are important to people. Your comment that titles mean
nothing exposes you're complete lack of understanding human nature and
the business world. A company can often get away with denying a raise
in salary just by giving the person a more important sounding title.

Programming is a function. Programmer is a job description. No
software developer hands out a business card saying he's a programmer.
His functional abilities may include programming, and his job
description may require programming skills, but you can be damn sure
he doesn't see himself as a programmer and doesn't want other people
to see him that way.



--
Tony Cooper - Orlando FL
 
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nospam
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      06-07-2013
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>, Tony Cooper
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> If a person's job title is "programmer", he does programming.


no kidding.

> If he does more than that, his job title will reflect that.


maybe. not always.

> Job titles,
> like salary, are important to people.


maybe titles once did, but not anymore. what matters more is what the
job actually is and how it's changing the world. now, people get
creative with job titles rather than use old stodgy boring ones.

<http://www.canada.com/When+title+just+title/6314032/story.html>
"We're definitely seeing it at all levels, across a wide range of
industries," he says. "Tech companies have been showing innovation in
their business titles for a while now, but we're also seeing it a lot
in jobs ranging from cleaning services to transportation to plumbing.
Titles like 'executive' or 'manager' don't have as much meaning in
some people's minds nowadays."

As immortalized in the movie The Social Network, Facebook founder
Mark Zuckerberg once ordered business cards reading: "I'm CEO,
bitch." Job titles at branding consultancy I-Am Associates include
Success Catalyst, Daydream Believer and Stone TurnerOverer.

> Your comment that titles mean
> nothing exposes you're complete lack of understanding human nature and
> the business world. A company can often get away with denying a raise
> in salary just by giving the person a more important sounding title.


not if they want to keep their talent, they don't.
 
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PeterN
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      06-07-2013
On 6/7/2013 1:27 PM, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Fri, 07 Jun 2013 11:06:22 -0400, Scott Schuckert <(E-Mail Removed)>
> wrote:
>
>> In article <050620132227332978%(E-Mail Removed)>, nospam
>> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>
>>> In article
>>> <(E-Mail Removed)>,
>>> RichA <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Microsoft is also jumping on this bandwagon with "Microsoft-branded
>>>> Services" in-place of owned programs.
>>>
>>> lots of companies are and expect more in the future.
>>>
>>>> You'll be happily using your Adobe PS and up will pop an ad.
>>>
>>> no.

>>
>> This is nothing new, just more signs of the MBAs taking over from the
>> programmers and marketing people.

>
> What is the difference between "marketing people" and "MBAs"? An MBA
> is simply an advanced degree. Many "marketing people" have MBAs. The
> MBA stands for Masters in Business Administration. Marketing is part
> of business administration.


True

>
> MBAs, and other management people who may not have this advanced
> degree, *should* take over the function of "programmers" in business
> decisions if those people are involved on the business side of the
> organization. A programmer is a person who designs a computer program
> to facilitate what other people decide needs to be accomplished.
> Programmers do not originate the idea; they work to assigned tasks.
>


A programmer only writes the code to accomplish the task. However, in
many cases management uses a business analyst to translate business
requirements into geek. One of the biggest problems with programmers is
getting them to stop, when a practical result has been reached. See my
reply to nospam for the difference between a programmer and a business
analyst.



> They may say "We can add this feature", but - in that role - they are
> just expanding the task given to them.
>
> A programmer need not - and usually doesn't - have any idea of the
> function or objectives of the business. Tell a programmer that
> something is needed to keep track of inventory, and he'll do it. He
> doesn't need to know what the inventory does, who it is sold to, or
> anything about the nature of the business other than the specifics of
> what he's assigned to keep track of.
>
>> Selling an indefinite license gives
>> you big spikes in the revenue stream, and accountants HATE that. They
>> want a nice, smooth flow of money, like the electric utility.
>>

> Accountants merely keep track of the income/outgo. The management
> people who are concerned with revenue flow are the ones who feel that
> the numbers affect the share prices.


You have described a bookkeeper, not an accountant.
Good accountants also: give management financial advice, including, but
not limited to, assistance in obtaining financing, cost analysis, cash
flow analysis, leasing v pruchase decisions, tax effects of financial
decisions, etc.

>
>> Twenty years ago, my sales manager (at ComputerLand, of all places) was
>> trying to get me away from the big deals: "I don't want a
>> million-dollar PO; I want a customer who'll spend $100,000 EVERY MONTH.

>
> Do the math. Your $100k a month customer spends more in a year than
> your million-dollar one-time buyer, and he is likely to continue to
> spend at that rate. Your sales manager was looking at the big
> picture.





>
> I doubt if your sales manager discouraged you from taking a
> million-dollar order, but he was right in encouraging you to look for
> customers who would buy and continue to buy.
>



--
PeterN
 
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PeterN
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Posts: n/a
 
      06-07-2013
On 6/7/2013 2:49 PM, nospam wrote:
> In article <51b2231e$0$10757$(E-Mail Removed)-secrets.com>, PeterN
> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>> Here's how it works, at least in custom designed software.
>> (simplified so you can understand it.)
>> Management makes a decision on what its needs are.
>> The business analyst creates a programming flow on how, if feasible to
>> implement, may even have to convince management to revise its requirements.
>> Programmers write the code for the implementation;
>> Business analyst tests the code,

>
> there are companies who write to spec, but that's the minority of
> programming.
>
> typically, *both* programmers and management come up with ideas.
> management generally wants the impossible and programmers bring it back
> to reality. in no case does a business analyst, who hasn't a clue about
> programming, come up with anything related to programming or
> feasibility because it's not part of their skill set.
>
> furthermore, business analysts do not test anything. that's sqa and
> beta testers, who then submit bug reports back to the programmers who
> then fix the bugs and release a new build to be tested.


I specifically referred to in house IT departments. The analysts tests
the programs to ensure it meets the business requirements. Schedules are
very tight, and 90-100 hour weeks are not uncommon for the two months
before the new program goes live. BTW are you aware that crash recovery
in some businesses is under five seconds? Access security for some
institutions is tighter than the US Govt. They do not use beta testers.
everything is internal.

>
> other times, programmers themselves come up with the ideas and pitch
> them to the higher-ups. for instance, google employees spend a portion
> of their time working on any pet project they want. some of those pet
> projects become real products, including gmail and google+ (originally
> wave). those weren't ideas that management came up with. they were
> ideas that programmers came up with.
>
>> BTW business analysts paid a lot more than programmers.

>
> no they definitely aren't. programmers can easily make quite a bit more
> than any analyst and many times they can write their own ticket.
>


For clarity I am calling using the term programmer as equal to code writer.
Are you speaking with knowledge?
I have actual knowledge of pay scales, based on what people actually do.




Strange, I know well paid business analysts who can't write two lines of
code.

--
PeterN
 
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Tony Cooper
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      06-07-2013
On Fri, 07 Jun 2013 15:49:30 -0400, nospam <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:

>In article <(E-Mail Removed)>, Tony Cooper
><(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>> If a person's job title is "programmer", he does programming.

>
>no kidding.
>
>> If he does more than that, his job title will reflect that.

>
>maybe. not always.
>
>> Job titles,
>> like salary, are important to people.

>
>maybe titles once did, but not anymore. what matters more is what the
>job actually is and how it's changing the world. now, people get
>creative with job titles rather than use old stodgy boring ones.
>
><http://www.canada.com/When+title+just+title/6314032/story.html>
> "We're definitely seeing it at all levels, across a wide range of
> industries," he says. "Tech companies have been showing innovation in
> their business titles for a while now, but we're also seeing it a lot
> in jobs ranging from cleaning services to transportation to plumbing.
> Titles like 'executive' or 'manager' don't have as much meaning in
> some people's minds nowadays."


Do you realize that you have just proved my point?

"Showing innovation" is just another term for "making employees feel
better by giving them more important titles". If the title is still
"programmer", the employee and the employer both feel the title
reflects the job...which is just programming.
>
> As immortalized in the movie The Social Network, Facebook founder
> Mark Zuckerberg once ordered business cards reading: "I'm CEO,
> bitch." Job titles at branding consultancy I-Am Associates include
> Success Catalyst, Daydream Believer and Stone TurnerOverer.
>
>> Your comment that titles mean
>> nothing exposes you're complete lack of understanding human nature and
>> the business world. A company can often get away with denying a raise
>> in salary just by giving the person a more important sounding title.

>
>not if they want to keep their talent, they don't.


All "talent" is not equal. "Can often..." recognizes this and says
that if marginal talent can be kept with a title promotion, then the
talent stays. If the marginal talent can't be retained with this type
of puffery, then the company says "So long" and plugs in another
person.



--
Tony Cooper - Orlando FL
 
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Tony Cooper
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      06-07-2013
On Fri, 07 Jun 2013 16:32:30 -0400, PeterN
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>On 6/7/2013 1:27 PM, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Fri, 07 Jun 2013 11:06:22 -0400, Scott Schuckert <(E-Mail Removed)>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In article <050620132227332978%(E-Mail Removed)>, nospam
>>> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In article
>>>> <(E-Mail Removed)>,
>>>> RichA <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Microsoft is also jumping on this bandwagon with "Microsoft-branded
>>>>> Services" in-place of owned programs.
>>>>
>>>> lots of companies are and expect more in the future.
>>>>
>>>>> You'll be happily using your Adobe PS and up will pop an ad.
>>>>
>>>> no.
>>>
>>> This is nothing new, just more signs of the MBAs taking over from the
>>> programmers and marketing people.

>>
>> What is the difference between "marketing people" and "MBAs"? An MBA
>> is simply an advanced degree. Many "marketing people" have MBAs. The
>> MBA stands for Masters in Business Administration. Marketing is part
>> of business administration.

>
>True
>
>>
>> MBAs, and other management people who may not have this advanced
>> degree, *should* take over the function of "programmers" in business
>> decisions if those people are involved on the business side of the
>> organization. A programmer is a person who designs a computer program
>> to facilitate what other people decide needs to be accomplished.
>> Programmers do not originate the idea; they work to assigned tasks.
>>

>
>A programmer only writes the code to accomplish the task. However, in
>many cases management uses a business analyst to translate business
>requirements into geek. One of the biggest problems with programmers is
>getting them to stop, when a practical result has been reached. See my
>reply to nospam for the difference between a programmer and a business
>analyst.
>
>
>
>> They may say "We can add this feature", but - in that role - they are
>> just expanding the task given to them.
>>
>> A programmer need not - and usually doesn't - have any idea of the
>> function or objectives of the business. Tell a programmer that
>> something is needed to keep track of inventory, and he'll do it. He
>> doesn't need to know what the inventory does, who it is sold to, or
>> anything about the nature of the business other than the specifics of
>> what he's assigned to keep track of.
>>
>>> Selling an indefinite license gives
>>> you big spikes in the revenue stream, and accountants HATE that. They
>>> want a nice, smooth flow of money, like the electric utility.
>>>

>> Accountants merely keep track of the income/outgo. The management
>> people who are concerned with revenue flow are the ones who feel that
>> the numbers affect the share prices.

>
>You have described a bookkeeper, not an accountant.
>Good accountants also: give management financial advice, including, but
>not limited to, assistance in obtaining financing, cost analysis, cash
>flow analysis, leasing v pruchase decisions, tax effects of financial
>decisions, etc.
>

I shouldn't slight the role of an accountant. All of what you said
above is true, but the accountant shouldn't let the share price affect
his decisions on the above points.

If you want to look at the OP's rather naif comment as a cash flow
problem, then the accountant might prefer regular feedings instead of
binging. I doubt if the OP is that aware, though.



>>> Twenty years ago, my sales manager (at ComputerLand, of all places) was
>>> trying to get me away from the big deals: "I don't want a
>>> million-dollar PO; I want a customer who'll spend $100,000 EVERY MONTH.

>>
>> Do the math. Your $100k a month customer spends more in a year than
>> your million-dollar one-time buyer, and he is likely to continue to
>> spend at that rate. Your sales manager was looking at the big
>> picture.

>
>
>
>
>>
>> I doubt if your sales manager discouraged you from taking a
>> million-dollar order, but he was right in encouraging you to look for
>> customers who would buy and continue to buy.
>>

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando FL
 
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