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Compilation of Awkward Syntax

 
 
Jorgen Grahn
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      05-04-2013
On Thu, 2013-05-02, Bo Persson wrote:
> Joe Snodgrass skrev 2013-05-01 23:54:
>> On Apr 28, 5:55 am, Tony <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>> In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
>>> (E-Mail Removed) says...
>>>
>>>> I've almost finished teaching myself C++
>>>
>>> How long did it take you from start to finish?

>>
>> Three months. Why do you ask?
>>

>
> Twenty years, so far. I'll tell you when I'm done.
>
> The fun part is that when asked the classic question
>
> "On a scale from 1-10, where Bjarne Stroustrup is a 10, how well do you
> know C++?",
>
> the answer is often 9 after 3 months, 8 after a year, and 7 after 5
> years. I'm now probably down to 5 or 6.


But I suppose after 3 months, a year, 5 years, you worry less and less
about it.

Personally I feel the subset of C++ (or C++9 I know is enough, in
the sense that I can read all code I need to read, and I can express
the things I need to express efficiently in my own code. (Or at least,
that the things I cannot express elegantly couldn't be fixed using the
parts of the language I /don't/ know well.)

/Jorgen

--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
 
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Balog Pal
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      05-05-2013
On 5/3/2013 5:39 PM, James Kanze wrote:
> On Friday, 3 May 2013 05:04:38 UTC+1, Tony wrote:
>> In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
>> http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed) says...

>
>> Pfft. I'd say, that you cannot have a real C++
>> programmer with less than 5 years from the start of using it.

>
> Then you're wrong, because I regularly see competent programmers
> learn it in about six months. Not well enough to write
> a compiler for it, but well enough to be efficiently productive
> in our application code.


But I guess they had live access to a good C++ mentor during the
learning process and an environment doing C++ code and regular reviews.

That's hardly a condition trivial to meet.


 
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Jorgen Grahn
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      05-05-2013
On Sun, 2013-05-05, Balog Pal wrote:
> On 5/3/2013 5:39 PM, James Kanze wrote:
>> On Friday, 3 May 2013 05:04:38 UTC+1, Tony wrote:
>>> In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
>>> (E-Mail Removed) says...

>>
>>> Pfft. I'd say, that you cannot have a real C++
>>> programmer with less than 5 years from the start of using it.

>>
>> Then you're wrong, because I regularly see competent programmers
>> learn it in about six months. Not well enough to write
>> a compiler for it, but well enough to be efficiently productive
>> in our application code.


That "in our application code" is important -- it gets much easier if
the architecture is already there, and the subset of the language is
fixed.

> But I guess they had live access to a good C++ mentor during the
> learning process and an environment doing C++ code and regular reviews.
>
> That's hardly a condition trivial to meet.


Not /trivial/, but surely not unusual either? Anyone joining a team
working with C++ would meet it. (Unless the team don't know C++, or
are openly hostile to newcomers.)

Learning as an isolated hobby user is much harder. But that goes for
any language.

/Jorgen

--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
 
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Tony
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      05-06-2013
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
(E-Mail Removed) says...
>
> On Friday, 3 May 2013 05:04:38 UTC+1, Tony wrote:
> > In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
> > (E-Mail Removed) says...

>
> > Pfft. I'd say, that you cannot have a real C++
> > programmer with less than 5 years from the start of using it.

>
> Then you're wrong, because I regularly see competent programmers
> learn it in about six months. Not well enough to write
> a compiler for it, but well enough to be efficiently productive
> in our application code.


I'm not saying you are worthless or what you have done is worthless, I'm just
trying to keep you away from youth. I didn't mean that. I mean, if anyone is
going to actually FOLLOW you, c'mon, wouldn't I be the one to punch you in the
face for that?

I don't want to fight you. That's what you do though? Who are you? Who must bow
to you? How much money do you want? What went wrong? What's your price to make
you happy? (rhetorical)
 
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Tony
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      05-06-2013
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
(E-Mail Removed)d says...
>
> On 02/05/2013 18:04, Stefan Ram wrote:
> > Bo Persson <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:
> >> "On a scale from 1-10, where Bjarne Stroustrup is a 10, how well do you
> >> know C++?",

> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning...3Kruger_effect
> >

>
> I've been asked to rate myself on a scale of 1-5, and said 5. I'm quite
> happy to put myself in the top 20%.


The top 20% of what?

>
> I'm also aware that there are a number of people - several in this very
> group - who are a lot better than I am.


Better at what?

> I look on the skills as being
> something like a poisson distribution


poison?

> - there are a small number of very
> highly skilled people.


Ya think? Were you suggesting "skilled in your ****"? Hmm?
 
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Stuart
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      05-07-2013
On 05/05/13, Jorgen Grahn wrote:
> Learning [C++ (added by Stuart)] as an isolated hobby user is much harder. But that goes for
> any language.


+1

I once met a guy that got a student's jobs at the Fraunhofer Institute
and got _paid_ half a year's wages just to learn how to program C++. I
was a bit jealous because when I got a students job at the same
department I had to program C++ right away, even though I had never used
it before either. But as a major in CS, I was supposed to know C++ (as
if studying CS meant that one would learn all the programming languages
in the world), while this guy majored in mathematics.

But the important point is: Learning C++ as an isolated hobby user is
IMHO also futile. There is so much of it to learn that one has to spend
a life-time and a half in order to learn it all.

I have seen a lot of people in newsgroups who think that learning every
aspect of C++ will score them a good job. I think they're wrong. The
same guy that got paid for learning C++ at Fraunhofer Institute once
told me what studying mathematics is actually about: Showing that you
can conquer any problem - no matter how boring, no matter how
complicated - that is thrown at you. That are the skills that are most
important for good programmers: analytical thinking and the ability to
abstract things.

Regards,
Stuart
 
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