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Re: Tale of the Laser - redux

 
 
Wolfgang Weisselberg
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Posts: n/a
 
      04-01-2013
nick c <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> ...... and should anyone openly disagree with your definition of a human
> right you would immediately correct the situation through vilification.
> Wise up, it doesn't work.


So basically *your* definition of human rights is the only
valid ones and/or human rights don't apply to certain groups,
say Negros, Indians, Untermenschen, Jews and felons ...

-Wolfgang
 
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nick c
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Posts: n/a
 
      04-01-2013
On 4/1/2013 1:48 PM, Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote:
> nick c <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>> ...... and should anyone openly disagree with your definition of a human
>> right you would immediately correct the situation through vilification.
>> Wise up, it doesn't work.

>
> So basically *your* definition of human rights is the only
> valid ones and/or human rights don't apply to certain groups,
> say Negros, Indians, Untermenschen, Jews and felons ...
>
> -Wolfgang
>


What definition of mine are you referring to?


 
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Robert Coe
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Posts: n/a
 
      04-02-2013
On Mon, 1 Apr 2013 02:35:18 +0100, "Charles E. Hardwidge"
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
:
: "nick c" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
: news:kjadet$379$(E-Mail Removed)...
: > Charles E. Hardwidge wrote:
: >> "Robert Coe" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
: >> news:(E-Mail Removed)...
: >>
: >>> Don't get me started. Here in Massachusetts we have a savage murderer
: >>> doing life in prison. He's decided that he's unhappy with his sex and
: >>> would feel better about spending the rest of his life in the joint if he
: >>> were a woman. His lawyer has managed to get a Federal judge to order the
: >>> state to pay for an absurdly expensive sex-change operation. The state
: >>> has appealed the order and should obviously take it to the Supreme Court
: >>> if the appeals court backs the judge. But many here suspect that the
: >>> mealy-mouthed, wishy-washy Commonwealth of Massachusetts will eventually
: >>> cave and let the perp get carved up at public expense, as he desires.
: >>
: >> Spoken like a true bigot who doesn't understand the first thing about
: >> human rights law and the challenges facing transgender people. Please,
: >> educate your knee-jerk mouth before you go shooting it off.
: >
: > Bigot!! Coe!! Not as far as I'm concerned. You post an opinion of a new
: > mind-set which is nonsense personified. An opinion that can be viewed as
: > an example that human-beings ofttimes display a trail-horse mentality.
:
: Transgender people have been around since whenever and not even the British
: Empire could stamp them out in India.

The situation of eunuchs in India is so radically different that the
comparison is ludicrous.

: Transgenderism is a recognised medical condition and includes but is not
: limited to a range of intersex conditions.

Whatever that means.

: According to the latest research transgender people may also suffer from
: transphobia or misunderstanding the condition by cisgender people which may
: cause stress and depression greater than what ethnic and other minorities
: face and, in the cited case at least, may have been a mitigating factor to
: the crime.

I don't believe the defense brought it up at trial, and I doubt that
Massachusetts law recognizes it as a mitigating factor anyway.

: In large parts of the world including Africa and most of the Middle-East
: their punishment for the crime of existing is the death penalty.

This guy murdered his wife, and the facts of the case are not in dispute,
AFAIK. In any case, he was convicted under due process of law. And
Massachusetts doesn't have the death penalty, so your dragging in Africa and
the Middle East is also nonsense.

: Not only does Coe show a cavalier disregard for someone's human rights and
: no knowledge of their condition but is also discourteous

"Discourteous" to a convicted murderer?? Surely you jest.

: to a person who is medically and legally a woman

Rubbish. I'm 99% certain that you're neither a lawyer nor a physician, so that
statement is meaningless.

: by going out of his way to misgender her.

Him. Whatever a person's mental persuasion regarding his/her sexuality,
his/her sex is what it is for genetic reasons. A "sex change" operation (which
he hasn't even had) doesn't affect that.

: She also has a name which I note Coe is not using in what is an obvious
: attempt to judge and objectify another human being. Her name is Michelle
: Kosilek for anyone not paying attention. Thank you.

He tried to get his name legally changed, but I believe he was unsuccessful.
It may still be being litigated. You seem to think you know a lot about the
case; do you have anything factual to contribute?

All of this is irrelevant anyway. The law in Massachusetts doesn't allow a
convicted and imprisoned felon to demand and get a sex change operation. It's
the Federal Government's order, and it should be appealed by the state, IMO.

Bob
 
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Charles E. Hardwidge
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      04-02-2013

"Robert Coe" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> On Mon, 1 Apr 2013 02:35:18 +0100, "Charles E. Hardwidge"
> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> :
> : "nick c" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> : news:kjadet$379$(E-Mail Removed)...
> : > Charles E. Hardwidge wrote:
> : >> "Robert Coe" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> : >> news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> : >>
> : >>> Don't get me started. Here in Massachusetts we have a savage
> murderer
> : >>> doing life in prison. He's decided that he's unhappy with his sex
> and
> : >>> would feel better about spending the rest of his life in the joint
> if he
> : >>> were a woman. His lawyer has managed to get a Federal judge to order
> the
> : >>> state to pay for an absurdly expensive sex-change operation. The
> state
> : >>> has appealed the order and should obviously take it to the Supreme
> Court
> : >>> if the appeals court backs the judge. But many here suspect that the
> : >>> mealy-mouthed, wishy-washy Commonwealth of Massachusetts will
> eventually
> : >>> cave and let the perp get carved up at public expense, as he
> desires.
> : >>
> : >> Spoken like a true bigot who doesn't understand the first thing about
> : >> human rights law and the challenges facing transgender people.
> Please,
> : >> educate your knee-jerk mouth before you go shooting it off.
> : >
> : > Bigot!! Coe!! Not as far as I'm concerned. You post an opinion of a
> new
> : > mind-set which is nonsense personified. An opinion that can be viewed
> as
> : > an example that human-beings ofttimes display a trail-horse mentality.
> :
> : Transgender people have been around since whenever and not even the
> British
> : Empire could stamp them out in India.
>
> The situation of eunuchs in India is so radically different that the
> comparison is ludicrous.
>
> : Transgenderism is a recognised medical condition and includes but is not
> : limited to a range of intersex conditions.
>
> Whatever that means.
>
> : According to the latest research transgender people may also suffer from
> : transphobia or misunderstanding the condition by cisgender people which
> may
> : cause stress and depression greater than what ethnic and other
> minorities
> : face and, in the cited case at least, may have been a mitigating factor
> to
> : the crime.
>
> I don't believe the defense brought it up at trial, and I doubt that
> Massachusetts law recognizes it as a mitigating factor anyway.
>
> : In large parts of the world including Africa and most of the Middle-East
> : their punishment for the crime of existing is the death penalty.
>
> This guy murdered his wife, and the facts of the case are not in dispute,
> AFAIK. In any case, he was convicted under due process of law. And
> Massachusetts doesn't have the death penalty, so your dragging in Africa
> and
> the Middle East is also nonsense.
>
> : Not only does Coe show a cavalier disregard for someone's human rights
> and
> : no knowledge of their condition but is also discourteous
>
> "Discourteous" to a convicted murderer?? Surely you jest.
>
> : to a person who is medically and legally a woman
>
> Rubbish. I'm 99% certain that you're neither a lawyer nor a physician, so
> that
> statement is meaningless.
>
> : by going out of his way to misgender her.
>
> Him. Whatever a person's mental persuasion regarding his/her sexuality,
> his/her sex is what it is for genetic reasons. A "sex change" operation
> (which
> he hasn't even had) doesn't affect that.
>
> : She also has a name which I note Coe is not using in what is an obvious
> : attempt to judge and objectify another human being. Her name is Michelle
> : Kosilek for anyone not paying attention. Thank you.
>
> He tried to get his name legally changed, but I believe he was
> unsuccessful.
> It may still be being litigated. You seem to think you know a lot about
> the
> case; do you have anything factual to contribute?
>
> All of this is irrelevant anyway. The law in Massachusetts doesn't allow a
> convicted and imprisoned felon to demand and get a sex change operation.
> It's
> the Federal Government's order, and it should be appealed by the state,
> IMO.


I've personally taken the time to educate myself about transgender law and
medical practice and history on multiple continents. Bearing in mind I'm in
the UK why should I educate a bigoted American about what's going on in
their own back yard?

* Michelle Kosilek's transgender status was a contributory factor to the
original crime. The defence pointed out in trial how her now deceased wife
made an issue of this. All of this information including different views to
legislators and prosecutors with an agenda is available with a web search.

* There is very little academic research conducted on transgender issues
with the vast bulk being researched in the US. The very latest research from
Boston University last year confirms the impact on transphobia on mental
health (before we even get into issues like denial of healthcare and
employment and hate crimes).

* Oppression of transgenders is often linked to political and religious
transphobia. Transgenders were part of earlier pagan culture much like they
are in India before the Catholic church stamped them out - a tradition which
puritan Americans and British imperialists inherited. Anglo-Saxon political
and religious wingnuttery may not by as bad as Africa and the Middle-East
but is certainly a contributory factor.

* There is no known single cause of transgenderism. The condition covers a
range of physiological and sociological issues and includes but is not
limited to intersex conditions and chimerism. Transgenders are persistent
across history and cultures with an estimated incidence of around 1% which
is suggestive of something very real not a fashion statement.

* Transgenders are not mental. Indeed, without the contribution of
transgender women like Lynn Conway the integrated circuit as we know it
would not exist, you would not be reading this post on a computer, and your
digital camera would still only exist in the realms of science fiction.

It's not my job to educate people on this and, quite frankly, I just don't
care enough about transphobes to argue it out with them. According to the
latest surveys this is mostly a generational issue. All the old white men,
like Robert KKKoe, who don't get it will be dying off soon and almost
everyone under the age of 30 does get it.

--
Charles E. Hardwidge

 
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Wolfgang Weisselberg
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      04-02-2013
nick c <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> On 4/1/2013 1:48 PM, Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote:
>> nick c <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:


>>> ...... and should anyone openly disagree with your definition of a human
>>> right you would immediately correct the situation through vilification.
>>> Wise up, it doesn't work.


>> So basically *your* definition of human rights is the only
>> valid ones and/or human rights don't apply to certain groups,
>> say Negros, Indians, Untermenschen, Jews and felons ...


> What definition of mine are you referring to?


The one you are using, never mind if you are even able to
write it down.

-Wolfgang
 
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Wolfgang Weisselberg
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      04-02-2013
Robert Coe <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> On Mon, 1 Apr 2013 02:35:18 +0100, "Charles E. Hardwidge"


>: Transgender people have been around since whenever and not even the British
>: Empire could stamp them out in India.


> The situation of eunuchs in India is so radically different that the
> comparison is ludicrous.


You think Eunuchs == Transgender and Transgender == Eunuchs?
Really?


>: Transgenderism is a recognised medical condition and includes but is not
>: limited to a range of intersex conditions.


> Whatever that means.


ICD-10 F64


>: Not only does Coe show a cavalier disregard for someone's human rights and
>: no knowledge of their condition but is also discourteous


> "Discourteous" to a convicted murderer?? Surely you jest.


If you truly believe convicted persons are subhuman and you
need to denigrate yourself by being uncivilised towards them,
you're right. (I'll let your theologican explain to you how
your religion sees such a thing.)


>: by going out of his way to misgender her.


> Him. Whatever a person's mental persuasion regarding his/her sexuality,
> his/her sex is what it is for genetic reasons. A "sex change" operation (which
> he hasn't even had) doesn't affect that.


sex != gender.
And sex != sexuality (an obvious one is sex: male,
sexuality: prefers males)

Read closely: "misgender", not "missex".

Oh, it may be that your definitions of gender and sex don't
match the dictionary.

-Wolfgang
 
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Tony Cooper
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      04-02-2013
On Tue, 2 Apr 2013 06:49:40 +0100, "Charles E. Hardwidge"
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>
>"Robert Coe" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>news:(E-Mail Removed).. .
>> On Mon, 1 Apr 2013 02:35:18 +0100, "Charles E. Hardwidge"
>> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>> :
>> : "nick c" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>> : news:kjadet$379$(E-Mail Removed)...
>> : > Charles E. Hardwidge wrote:
>> : >> "Robert Coe" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>> : >> news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>> : >>
>> : >>> Don't get me started. Here in Massachusetts we have a savage
>> murderer
>> : >>> doing life in prison. He's decided that he's unhappy with his sex
>> and
>> : >>> would feel better about spending the rest of his life in the joint
>> if he
>> : >>> were a woman. His lawyer has managed to get a Federal judge to order
>> the
>> : >>> state to pay for an absurdly expensive sex-change operation. The
>> state
>> : >>> has appealed the order and should obviously take it to the Supreme
>> Court
>> : >>> if the appeals court backs the judge. But many here suspect that the
>> : >>> mealy-mouthed, wishy-washy Commonwealth of Massachusetts will
>> eventually
>> : >>> cave and let the perp get carved up at public expense, as he
>> desires.
>> : >>
>> : >> Spoken like a true bigot who doesn't understand the first thing about
>> : >> human rights law and the challenges facing transgender people.
>> Please,
>> : >> educate your knee-jerk mouth before you go shooting it off.
>> : >
>> : > Bigot!! Coe!! Not as far as I'm concerned. You post an opinion of a
>> new
>> : > mind-set which is nonsense personified. An opinion that can be viewed
>> as
>> : > an example that human-beings ofttimes display a trail-horse mentality.
>> :
>> : Transgender people have been around since whenever and not even the
>> British
>> : Empire could stamp them out in India.
>>
>> The situation of eunuchs in India is so radically different that the
>> comparison is ludicrous.
>>
>> : Transgenderism is a recognised medical condition and includes but is not
>> : limited to a range of intersex conditions.
>>
>> Whatever that means.
>>
>> : According to the latest research transgender people may also suffer from
>> : transphobia or misunderstanding the condition by cisgender people which
>> may
>> : cause stress and depression greater than what ethnic and other
>> minorities
>> : face and, in the cited case at least, may have been a mitigating factor
>> to
>> : the crime.
>>
>> I don't believe the defense brought it up at trial, and I doubt that
>> Massachusetts law recognizes it as a mitigating factor anyway.
>>
>> : In large parts of the world including Africa and most of the Middle-East
>> : their punishment for the crime of existing is the death penalty.
>>
>> This guy murdered his wife, and the facts of the case are not in dispute,
>> AFAIK. In any case, he was convicted under due process of law. And
>> Massachusetts doesn't have the death penalty, so your dragging in Africa
>> and
>> the Middle East is also nonsense.
>>
>> : Not only does Coe show a cavalier disregard for someone's human rights
>> and
>> : no knowledge of their condition but is also discourteous
>>
>> "Discourteous" to a convicted murderer?? Surely you jest.
>>
>> : to a person who is medically and legally a woman
>>
>> Rubbish. I'm 99% certain that you're neither a lawyer nor a physician, so
>> that
>> statement is meaningless.
>>
>> : by going out of his way to misgender her.
>>
>> Him. Whatever a person's mental persuasion regarding his/her sexuality,
>> his/her sex is what it is for genetic reasons. A "sex change" operation
>> (which
>> he hasn't even had) doesn't affect that.
>>
>> : She also has a name which I note Coe is not using in what is an obvious
>> : attempt to judge and objectify another human being. Her name is Michelle
>> : Kosilek for anyone not paying attention. Thank you.
>>
>> He tried to get his name legally changed, but I believe he was
>> unsuccessful.
>> It may still be being litigated. You seem to think you know a lot about
>> the
>> case; do you have anything factual to contribute?
>>
>> All of this is irrelevant anyway. The law in Massachusetts doesn't allow a
>> convicted and imprisoned felon to demand and get a sex change operation.
>> It's
>> the Federal Government's order, and it should be appealed by the state,
>> IMO.

>
>I've personally taken the time to educate myself about transgender law and
>medical practice and history on multiple continents. Bearing in mind I'm in
>the UK why should I educate a bigoted American about what's going on in
>their own back yard?
>
>* Michelle Kosilek's transgender status was a contributory factor to the
>original crime. The defence pointed out in trial how her now deceased wife
>made an issue of this. All of this information including different views to
>legislators and prosecutors with an agenda is available with a web search.
>
>* There is very little academic research conducted on transgender issues
>with the vast bulk being researched in the US. The very latest research from
>Boston University last year confirms the impact on transphobia on mental
>health (before we even get into issues like denial of healthcare and
>employment and hate crimes).
>
>* Oppression of transgenders is often linked to political and religious
>transphobia. Transgenders were part of earlier pagan culture much like they
>are in India before the Catholic church stamped them out - a tradition which
>puritan Americans and British imperialists inherited. Anglo-Saxon political
>and religious wingnuttery may not by as bad as Africa and the Middle-East
>but is certainly a contributory factor.
>
>* There is no known single cause of transgenderism. The condition covers a
>range of physiological and sociological issues and includes but is not
>limited to intersex conditions and chimerism. Transgenders are persistent
>across history and cultures with an estimated incidence of around 1% which
>is suggestive of something very real not a fashion statement.
>
>* Transgenders are not mental. Indeed, without the contribution of
>transgender women like Lynn Conway the integrated circuit as we know it
>would not exist, you would not be reading this post on a computer, and your
>digital camera would still only exist in the realms of science fiction.
>
>It's not my job to educate people on this and, quite frankly, I just don't
>care enough about transphobes to argue it out with them. According to the
>latest surveys this is mostly a generational issue. All the old white men,
>like Robert KKKoe, who don't get it will be dying off soon and almost
>everyone under the age of 30 does get it.


It seems to me that you are conflating two separate issues and blaming
Bob for a position that he hasn't advocated.

Bob has not shown any bigotry regarding transgenders (Issue #1). What
he has objected to is the state paying for a non-life-threatening
medical procedure of a convicted and incarcerated murderer (Issue #2).


--
Tony Cooper - Orlando FL
 
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Charles E. Hardwidge
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      04-02-2013
"Tony Cooper" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...

> It seems to me that you are conflating two separate issues and blaming
> Bob for a position that he hasn't advocated.
>
> Bob has not shown any bigotry regarding transgenders (Issue #1). What
> he has objected to is the state paying for a non-life-threatening
> medical procedure of a convicted and incarcerated murderer (Issue #2).


Don't you think Coe's denial of human rights and misgendering and general
ignorance speaks for itself? He was quite strident and unforgiving in his
views barked from the position of old white male cisgender privilege. Don't
you find this at least a little bit questionable? You lot are quick enough
to pick over tech specs and reviews if it promises you an extra six inches
of virtual manhood...

--
Charles E. Hardwidge
 
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Whisky-dave
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      04-02-2013
On Sunday, March 31, 2013 3:19:48 PM UTC+1, Charles E. Hardwidge wrote:
> "Robert Coe" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>
> news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>
>
>
> > Don't get me started. Here in Massachusetts we have a savage murderer

>
> > doing life in prison. He's decided that he's unhappy with his sex and

>
> > would feel better about spending the rest of his life in the joint if he

>
> > were a woman. His lawyer has managed to get a Federal judge to order the

>
> > state to pay for an absurdly expensive sex-change operation. The state has

>
> > appealed the order and should obviously take it to the Supreme Court if

>
> > the appeals court backs the judge. But many here suspect that the

>
> > mealy-mouthed, wishy-washy Commonwealth of Massachusetts will eventually

>
> > cave and let the perp get carved up at public expense, as he desires.

>
>
>
> Spoken like a true bigot who doesn't understand the first thing about human
>
> rights law and the challenges facing transgender people.


Or as it is in the UK were people get annoyed at such things not just because they happen but because you can't get the privaledged treatment unless you're in prison.

> Please, educate
>
> your knee-jerk mouth before you go shooting it off.


There are transgendered people that would like the operation too, I have a friend in that situation but unfotunantly rather than being a criminal he's a care worker and on minuim wage so has virually no chance of funding it himself.
Whether or not he can have it done for free is unlikely presently, I think it unfair that criminals get preferectial treatment because others feel sorry for them.
It's a pity these human rights aren't given to everyone equally.




> Some reading for you:
>
>
>
> http://www.hrw.org/news/2011/06/17/h...united-nations
>
>
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transge...of_Remembrance
>
>
>
> http://www.aidsalliance.org/NewsDetails.aspx?Id=291508
>
> http://www.aidsalliance.org/includes...-%20Ver1.1.pdf
>
>
>
> --
>
> Charles E. Hardwidge


 
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Charles E. Hardwidge
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      04-02-2013
"George Kerby" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:CD806C2E.998F1%(E-Mail Removed)...
> On 4/2/13 9:39 AM, in article kjeqek$lv1$(E-Mail Removed), "Charles E.
> Hardwidge" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>> "Tony Cooper" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>> news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>>
>>> It seems to me that you are conflating two separate issues and blaming
>>> Bob for a position that he hasn't advocated.
>>>
>>> Bob has not shown any bigotry regarding transgenders (Issue #1). What
>>> he has objected to is the state paying for a non-life-threatening
>>> medical procedure of a convicted and incarcerated murderer (Issue #2).

>>
>> Don't you think Coe's denial of human rights and misgendering and general
>> ignorance speaks for itself? He was quite strident and unforgiving in his
>> views barked from the position of old white male cisgender privilege.
>> Don't you find this at least a little bit questionable? You lot are quick
>> enough to pick over tech specs and reviews if it promises you an extra
>> six inches of virtual manhood...

>
> I am an "old white man" and I'll be DAMNED, if I have any say, to waste my
> hard-earned taxpayer $$$ on a convicted murderer's 'sensitivity' issues
> about their gender.
>
> There are a helluva lot more things that are important.
>
> So, can we now get back to PHOTOGRAPHY?!?
>
> SEREESH!


I'm just minding my own business then, like buses, three bigots (KKKoe,
KKKooper, and KKKerby) come along at once.

DIE CIS-SCUM!!!

Plenty of other people *do* care which is why Kate Bornstein was able to
raise $100,000 in a less than week from wellwishers in the US and from
around the world. I personally donated the entire amount from a surprise
lottery win. Okay, it was peanuts but I was glad to do it.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/thomaspagemc...in-less-than-a

--
Charles E. Hardwidge

 
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