«

On 3/16/2013 8:24 AM, Alan Browne wrote:
>
> http://memolition.com/2013/03/15/the...y-27-pictures/
>
>
>

Really neat.
They are a classic example of really nice images, that would not do well
in a camera club competition. I wish I had taken them.

--
PeterN

On 16/03/2013 8:52 PM, PeterN wrote:
> On 3/16/2013 8:24 AM, Alan Browne wrote:
>>
>> http://memolition.com/2013/03/15/the...y-27-pictures/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> Really neat.
> They are a classic example of really nice images, that would not do well
> in a camera club competition. I wish I had taken them.
>

Curious why you say they would NOT do well in a camera club? Just
wondering?

--
This space intentionally left blank.

On 3/16/2013 9:10 PM, Usenet Account wrote:
> On 16/03/2013 8:52 PM, PeterN wrote:
>> On 3/16/2013 8:24 AM, Alan Browne wrote:
>>>
>>> http://memolition.com/2013/03/15/the...y-27-pictures/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Really neat.
>> They are a classic example of really nice images, that would not do well
>> in a camera club competition. I wish I had taken them.
>>
>
> Curious why you say they would NOT do well in a camera club? Just
> wondering?
>

Many judges would say: the hot spots are distracting; parts of the
creatures are outside the image area, etc.
Please note the above is not my impression, but is intended to be a
commentary of the weaknesses of camera club judging. I have often said
that Cartier-Bresson, would not do well in camera club competitions.


--
PeterN

On 17/03/2013 12:36 PM, PeterN wrote:
> On 3/16/2013 9:10 PM, Usenet Account wrote:
>> On 16/03/2013 8:52 PM, PeterN wrote:
>>> On 3/16/2013 8:24 AM, Alan Browne wrote:
>>>>
>>>> http://memolition.com/2013/03/15/the...y-27-pictures/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Really neat.
>>> They are a classic example of really nice images, that would not do well
>>> in a camera club competition. I wish I had taken them.
>>>
>>
>> Curious why you say they would NOT do well in a camera club? Just
>> wondering?
>>
>
> Many judges would say: the hot spots are distracting; parts of the
> creatures are outside the image area, etc.
> Please note the above is not my impression, but is intended to be a
> commentary of the weaknesses of camera club judging. I have often said
> that Cartier-Bresson, would not do well in camera club competitions.
>
>
Agree with your comments, camera club judges are full of themselves on
the night, nit picking, they can't correctly evaluate the elements of an
image and ridicule the content. As an example some time ago had a image
evaluated and the comment was the horizon was not straight, funny about
that it had lens curvature. Another example was architecture, where
verticals should be vertical or over over emphasised, looking up at a
tall building, the judge picked on one as not vertical which should have
been, but there were 2 others out of whack as well, but no criticism of
the fact but given awards!

I have even pointed out plagiarism of images and part images, to the
committee, ripped off the web, and they have condoned the use of such
images, to the extent where the image has been best in section. I was
being a pain in the arse to them.

I'm sure other images being presented in competitions, were not setup or
photographed by the author, as they didn't show a consistent standard of
such photographer compare with there other submissions.

What does amaze me is the judges will critique an image but can't
explain why or give their opinion how to rectify the perceived fault.

One particular night there was this judge who insisted using "Um" all
the time, this irritates me as its them catching up with their thoughts,
anyhow this was so annoying that I started to count the number of time
she used "Um" and the intervals between. Results basically, 700, at 20
second intervals, yep - over 3 hour period.
What a long boring night that turned out to be.

Camera clubs live in there own little world and stay in a rut.

On Sun, 17 Mar 2013 15:50:27 +1100, Rob <> wrote:

>On 17/03/2013 12:36 PM, PeterN wrote:
>> On 3/16/2013 9:10 PM, Usenet Account wrote:
>>> On 16/03/2013 8:52 PM, PeterN wrote:
>>>> On 3/16/2013 8:24 AM, Alan Browne wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://memolition.com/2013/03/15/the...y-27-pictures/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Really neat.
>>>> They are a classic example of really nice images, that would not do well
>>>> in a camera club competition. I wish I had taken them.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Curious why you say they would NOT do well in a camera club? Just
>>> wondering?
>>>
>>
>> Many judges would say: the hot spots are distracting; parts of the
>> creatures are outside the image area, etc.
>> Please note the above is not my impression, but is intended to be a
>> commentary of the weaknesses of camera club judging. I have often said
>> that Cartier-Bresson, would not do well in camera club competitions.
>>
>>
>Agree with your comments, camera club judges are full of themselves on
>the night, nit picking, they can't correctly evaluate the elements of an
>image and ridicule the content. As an example some time ago had a image
>evaluated and the comment was the horizon was not straight, funny about
>that it had lens curvature. Another example was architecture, where
>verticals should be vertical or over over emphasised, looking up at a
>tall building, the judge picked on one as not vertical which should have
>been, but there were 2 others out of whack as well, but no criticism of
>the fact but given awards!
>
>I have even pointed out plagiarism of images and part images, to the
>committee, ripped off the web, and they have condoned the use of such
>images, to the extent where the image has been best in section. I was
>being a pain in the arse to them.
>
>I'm sure other images being presented in competitions, were not setup or
>photographed by the author, as they didn't show a consistent standard of
>such photographer compare with there other submissions.
>
>What does amaze me is the judges will critique an image but can't
>explain why or give their opinion how to rectify the perceived fault.
>
>One particular night there was this judge who insisted using "Um" all
>the time, this irritates me as its them catching up with their thoughts,
>anyhow this was so annoying that I started to count the number of time
>she used "Um" and the intervals between. Results basically, 700, at 20
>second intervals, yep - over 3 hour period.
>What a long boring night that turned out to be.
>
>Camera clubs live in there own little world and stay in a rut.

The more I read about other people's views and comments about their
camera clubs, the more I feel that the camera club I belong to is
doing competitions the right way. I don't always agree with the
judge's critiques, or always agree with the first place choices, but
the judges do a good job of explaining why a photo is rated high or
low and what should have been done if the rating is low.

Maybe it's because it's a large club with an average attendance of 75
to 100 members so the pool to draw from for the in-house judges (two
in-house and one outsider for each competition night) or maybe it's
because the judges are given the submissions several days before the
competition night and thus have time to prepare their critiques.

The only real objection I have to the competitions is that submissions
are not required to be "fresh". So, instead of shooting to the
mandate, most members pull shots from their archives and the image
might have been taken several years ago.


--
Tony Cooper - Orlando FL

On 17/03/2013 5:00 PM, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Mar 2013 15:50:27 +1100, Rob <> wrote:
>
>> On 17/03/2013 12:36 PM, PeterN wrote:
>>> On 3/16/2013 9:10 PM, Usenet Account wrote:
>>>> On 16/03/2013 8:52 PM, PeterN wrote:
>>>>> On 3/16/2013 8:24 AM, Alan Browne wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://memolition.com/2013/03/15/the...y-27-pictures/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Really neat.
>>>>> They are a classic example of really nice images, that would not do well
>>>>> in a camera club competition. I wish I had taken them.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Curious why you say they would NOT do well in a camera club? Just
>>>> wondering?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Many judges would say: the hot spots are distracting; parts of the
>>> creatures are outside the image area, etc.
>>> Please note the above is not my impression, but is intended to be a
>>> commentary of the weaknesses of camera club judging. I have often said
>>> that Cartier-Bresson, would not do well in camera club competitions.
>>>
>>>
>> Agree with your comments, camera club judges are full of themselves on
>> the night, nit picking, they can't correctly evaluate the elements of an
>> image and ridicule the content. As an example some time ago had a image
>> evaluated and the comment was the horizon was not straight, funny about
>> that it had lens curvature. Another example was architecture, where
>> verticals should be vertical or over over emphasised, looking up at a
>> tall building, the judge picked on one as not vertical which should have
>> been, but there were 2 others out of whack as well, but no criticism of
>> the fact but given awards!
>>
>> I have even pointed out plagiarism of images and part images, to the
>> committee, ripped off the web, and they have condoned the use of such
>> images, to the extent where the image has been best in section. I was
>> being a pain in the arse to them.
>>
>> I'm sure other images being presented in competitions, were not setup or
>> photographed by the author, as they didn't show a consistent standard of
>> such photographer compare with there other submissions.
>>
>> What does amaze me is the judges will critique an image but can't
>> explain why or give their opinion how to rectify the perceived fault.
>>
>> One particular night there was this judge who insisted using "Um" all
>> the time, this irritates me as its them catching up with their thoughts,
>> anyhow this was so annoying that I started to count the number of time
>> she used "Um" and the intervals between. Results basically, 700, at 20
>> second intervals, yep - over 3 hour period.
>> What a long boring night that turned out to be.
>>
>> Camera clubs live in there own little world and stay in a rut.
>
> The more I read about other people's views and comments about their
> camera clubs, the more I feel that the camera club I belong to is
> doing competitions the right way. I don't always agree with the
> judge's critiques, or always agree with the first place choices, but
> the judges do a good job of explaining why a photo is rated high or
> low and what should have been done if the rating is low.
>
> Maybe it's because it's a large club with an average attendance of 75
> to 100 members so the pool to draw from for the in-house judges (two
> in-house and one outsider for each competition night) or maybe it's
> because the judges are given the submissions several days before the
> competition night and thus have time to prepare their critiques.
>
> The only real objection I have to the competitions is that submissions
> are not required to be "fresh". So, instead of shooting to the
> mandate, most members pull shots from their archives and the image
> might have been taken several years ago.
>
>

Your club must be doing something right to have so many in attendance
making for an interesting participation for its members

What you are saying seems quite good and the combination of judging
keeps the standard very high.

Giving judges submissions in advance is an excellent way as the judges
are not over whelmed by so much to comment on.

Tony Cooper <> wrote:

> The only real objection I have to the competitions is that submissions
> are not required to be "fresh". So, instead of shooting to the
> mandate, most members pull shots from their archives and the image
> might have been taken several years ago.

So you're basically saying you should have to re-shoot your
own best shoots if you want them to participate?

-Wolfgang

On Sun, 17 Mar 2013 17:46:41 +1100, Rob <> wrote:

>On 17/03/2013 5:00 PM, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Sun, 17 Mar 2013 15:50:27 +1100, Rob <> wrote:
>>
>>> On 17/03/2013 12:36 PM, PeterN wrote:
>>>> On 3/16/2013 9:10 PM, Usenet Account wrote:
>>>>> On 16/03/2013 8:52 PM, PeterN wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/16/2013 8:24 AM, Alan Browne wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://memolition.com/2013/03/15/the...y-27-pictures/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Really neat.
>>>>>> They are a classic example of really nice images, that would not do well
>>>>>> in a camera club competition. I wish I had taken them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Curious why you say they would NOT do well in a camera club? Just
>>>>> wondering?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Many judges would say: the hot spots are distracting; parts of the
>>>> creatures are outside the image area, etc.
>>>> Please note the above is not my impression, but is intended to be a
>>>> commentary of the weaknesses of camera club judging. I have often said
>>>> that Cartier-Bresson, would not do well in camera club competitions.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Agree with your comments, camera club judges are full of themselves on
>>> the night, nit picking, they can't correctly evaluate the elements of an
>>> image and ridicule the content. As an example some time ago had a image
>>> evaluated and the comment was the horizon was not straight, funny about
>>> that it had lens curvature. Another example was architecture, where
>>> verticals should be vertical or over over emphasised, looking up at a
>>> tall building, the judge picked on one as not vertical which should have
>>> been, but there were 2 others out of whack as well, but no criticism of
>>> the fact but given awards!
>>>
>>> I have even pointed out plagiarism of images and part images, to the
>>> committee, ripped off the web, and they have condoned the use of such
>>> images, to the extent where the image has been best in section. I was
>>> being a pain in the arse to them.
>>>
>>> I'm sure other images being presented in competitions, were not setup or
>>> photographed by the author, as they didn't show a consistent standard of
>>> such photographer compare with there other submissions.
>>>
>>> What does amaze me is the judges will critique an image but can't
>>> explain why or give their opinion how to rectify the perceived fault.
>>>
>>> One particular night there was this judge who insisted using "Um" all
>>> the time, this irritates me as its them catching up with their thoughts,
>>> anyhow this was so annoying that I started to count the number of time
>>> she used "Um" and the intervals between. Results basically, 700, at 20
>>> second intervals, yep - over 3 hour period.
>>> What a long boring night that turned out to be.
>>>
>>> Camera clubs live in there own little world and stay in a rut.
>>
>> The more I read about other people's views and comments about their
>> camera clubs, the more I feel that the camera club I belong to is
>> doing competitions the right way. I don't always agree with the
>> judge's critiques, or always agree with the first place choices, but
>> the judges do a good job of explaining why a photo is rated high or
>> low and what should have been done if the rating is low.
>>
>> Maybe it's because it's a large club with an average attendance of 75
>> to 100 members so the pool to draw from for the in-house judges (two
>> in-house and one outsider for each competition night) or maybe it's
>> because the judges are given the submissions several days before the
>> competition night and thus have time to prepare their critiques.
>>
>> The only real objection I have to the competitions is that submissions
>> are not required to be "fresh". So, instead of shooting to the
>> mandate, most members pull shots from their archives and the image
>> might have been taken several years ago.
>>
>>
>
>Your club must be doing something right to have so many in attendance
>making for an interesting participation for its members
>
>What you are saying seems quite good and the combination of judging
>keeps the standard very high.
>
>Giving judges submissions in advance is an excellent way as the judges
>are not over whelmed by so much to comment on.
>
Yes, advance preparation is a good feature for judges. Entries are
submitted online one week in advance. They are then sent to the
judges in password-protected files and the judges review them at home,
grade them, and prepare their critiques. I notice, during the
critiques, that judges read from their pre-prepared notes. Scores are
an average of the three judge's individual scores. Each entry is
commented on by only one judge (rotating through the three), but the
other two can add a short comment if they want to.

All competitions are flawed in that all judges have personal biases
and preferences for certain elements in a photo. Judging is
subjective. But, the prize money for first place is a $25 gift card
from a sponsor, so it's not that big a deal other than the
recognition.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando FL

On 3/17/2013 12:50 AM, Rob wrote:

<snip>

>
> Camera clubs live in there own little world and stay in a rut.

Not all. Just some of the judges. My club has 60 members. On competition
nights we average about 40. On other nights, attendance varies, but
rarely less than 30. We have filed trips every Sunday. about 15 to 20
show up. Some just come for breakfast, where we get into discussions.
About two weeks ago two of our members gave a presentation of shooting
butterflies. Today, we went to a butterfly exhibit. (Yes it was
indoors.) On my recent trip to FL, I was kept busy almost every day,
shooting with members oaf my club.


--
PeterN

On Sun, 17 Mar 2013 14:14:15 -0400, PeterN
<> wrote:

>On 3/17/2013 12:50 AM, Rob wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>>
>> Camera clubs live in there own little world and stay in a rut.
>
>Not all. Just some of the judges. My club has 60 members. On competition
>nights we average about 40. On other nights, attendance varies, but
>rarely less than 30. We have filed trips every Sunday. about 15 to 20
>show up. Some just come for breakfast, where we get into discussions.
>About two weeks ago two of our members gave a presentation of shooting
>butterflies. Today, we went to a butterfly exhibit. (Yes it was
>indoors.) On my recent trip to FL, I was kept busy almost every day,
>shooting with members oaf my club.

A second club I belong to has about 40-50 members. I joined them
yesterday for a field trip to a car show. I'll stop and take a shot
or two at a car show, but I'm not a big fan. Too many people standing
around the cars, the sun is never right for the shot I want, and I've
never been able to get my circular polarizer to do its thing.

I went for the social aspect. Eight of us had a meal together and
chatted about photography. This smaller club is more social than the
larger club I belong to, but the larger club also has field trips.

Here's why I don't like car shows:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/64147677/2013-03-16-75.jpg

All the people, the background, and the signs in the window of this
Packard. I do shoot some close-up of bits and pieces of cars to avoid
the problem. This one's a 1939 Ford:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/64147677/2013-03-16-88.jpg


--
Tony Cooper - Orlando FL