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SI Comments - Cooper

 
 
Tony Cooper
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      01-09-2013
http://www.pbase.com/shootin/street_photography

Good to see "Street" shots elevated to the same importance as the
letter "M".

I really wish people would give a title to their images so that when
we discuss an image we can be clear about which image we're
discussing. I'll assign titles where there are none.

Bowser - "Streetsweeper" lacks anything of interest but the processing
it good for what it is. Even in "Street", we want something that is
self-identifying as the subject. The "Sunkist Man" has more going for
it, but I can't really point at the reason "Why". Maybe it's that the
figure is dominant in the image.

I'm probably going to take more flak about my cropping preferences,
but here goes:

Bowser's "Man on the corner" is the most interesting of his three
takes, but would work better as a vertical with most of the scene to
the right cropped out.

That brings up something that, to me, is interesting. For "Street", I
prefer the cropped view, but I also see this corner as the setting for
another photograph with wide view but without an interesting
character. The perspective, the diagonals, and all those angles and
textures and shapes are a scene that doesn't need a central character.

Rob - "Mak'in a Quid" is a good capture. That bare foot is great.
"On ya bike" is an interesting view of recurring shapes, but not what
I'd call "Street" even with the bike rider to the top left.

I'm often criticized in the "Street" forum I participate in for
too-bright colors when I submit in color. Too much vibrancy in
processing, I guess. But, when it's a color image then I think you
let the colors show.

Rob didn't hold back in color in "SVP", and it's one of my favorites
in this SI. Good thing Rob didn't pay attention to the "No
photography" symbol on the easel. If there's one thing I'd like to
see that isn't there it's a little more of the pipe. It explains the
smoke.

SavageDuck - "Cowboy Hat Man" is just kinda flat. The Duck should've
waited until the "Man on a Bench" turned a bit to the camera. A
profile could've worked. The "Juggler" is a good catch, but I'd bring
out the yellow of the object in the air. The image needs one of the
three objects up in the air, and the one that is kinda gets lost in
the background.

DanP - When people hear that I like to do "Street", they think that
all I shoot are bums and down-and-outers. People think that "Street"
means black and white, gritty shots of the seamy side. Not so.

"Street" is what we see on the street. This is what Dan saw, and it
works well for "Street".

Bob Coe - Here we go again on cropping. That blown-out white
tablecloth should be have been cropped out. Well, as much as
possible. Blown-out is bad, and a dominate light area in an otherwise
darkish scene distracts. Otherwise, the scene is very good.

I see what Bob was going for in the "Construction Zone", but it just
doesn't come off. The "Night Shot" does. Some strong areas, but it
results in good balance.

Peter Newman - "Almost Off" is very much South Beach, but not much
"Street". I like "Pick a Winner", but I'm not keen on that much
grain. Good composition and subject choice. Ditto for all comments
when looking at "The Loser".

Regarding the comment about my "Atelier", I think the image would work
with or without the door on the right. Cropping it out wouldn't make
it a better composition, and leaving it in doesn't make it better.
"Musical Rest" would look better without that construction fence over
the umbrella, but it's there. "Tired" is a non-standard ratio crop
that I like. I wish I would have toned down that white sign on the
pole with a little burning.




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Tony Cooper, Orlando FL
 
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Tony Cooper
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      01-09-2013
On Wed, 9 Jan 2013 10:16:48 -0800, Savageduck
<savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

>On 2013-01-09 08:48:28 -0800, Tony Cooper <> said:
>
>> http://www.pbase.com/shootin/street_photography
>>
>>
>> SavageDuck - "Cowboy Hat Man" is just kinda flat. The Duck should've
>> waited until the "Man on a Bench" turned a bit to the camera. A
>> profile could've worked. The "Juggler" is a good catch, but I'd bring
>> out the yellow of the object in the air. The image needs one of the
>> three objects up in the air, and the one that is kinda gets lost in
>> the background.

>
>Moments in time captured, and timing is everything for many street captures.


Tell me about it. For every shot taken and kept, there are dozens
missed because the subject just didn't look up, look around, or not
move behind someone else.


>At the farmers' market in Paso Robles, it was quite early and even
>though I got few shots there, the guy in the hat seemed to be better
>than the crazy woman riding a mobility scooter, who kept yelling, "Why
>are you taking pictures?" at me.
>< https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1295663/Fil...NC_5407-Ew.jpg >
>
>Down in San Luis Obispo, the "Man on the Bench" was seriously catatonic
>and his only movement in all the time I observed him was to lift his
>right hand slightly, proffering his begging cup to passers-by. Moving
>his head never happened when I shot him from the other side of the
>street, and when I walked past him, and when other folks walked past
>him.
>< https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1295663/Fil...NC_5431-Ew.jpg >
>

Better view, but the other had better post-processing. That's that
"creamsicle" preset, isn't it?

>As for the juggler, it was timing, timing, timing.
>< https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1295663/Fil...NC_5439-Ew.jpg >


That's the better image as far as I'm concerned.
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Tony Cooper, Orlando FL
 
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Peter
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      01-10-2013
On 1/9/2013 11:48 AM, Tony Cooper wrote:

<snip>
>
> Peter Newman - "Almost Off" is very much South Beach, but not much
> "Street". I like "Pick a Winner", but I'm not keen on that much
> grain. Good composition and subject choice. Ditto for all comments
> when looking at "The Loser".
>


Thanks for your comment.
Unfortunately, I too would have liked a little less grain, but shooting
conditions prevailed. Look at the ISO, aperature and shutter speed. It
was better than no image.

> Regarding the comment about my "Atelier", I think the image would work
> with or without the door on the right. Cropping it out wouldn't make
> it a better composition, and leaving it in doesn't make it better.


Horses for courses.

> "Musical Rest" would look better without that construction fence over
> the umbrella, but it's there. "Tired" is a non-standard ratio crop
> that I like. I wish I would have toned down that white sign on the
> pole with a little burning.
>




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PeterN
 
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Robert Coe
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      01-10-2013
On Wed, 09 Jan 2013 21:18:06 -0500, Peter <> wrote:
: On 1/9/2013 11:48 AM, Tony Cooper wrote:
:
: <snip>
: >
: > Peter Newman - "Almost Off" is very much South Beach, but not much
: > "Street". I like "Pick a Winner", but I'm not keen on that much
: > grain. Good composition and subject choice. Ditto for all comments
: > when looking at "The Loser".
: >
:
: Thanks for your comment.
: Unfortunately, I too would have liked a little less grain, but shooting
: conditions prevailed. Look at the ISO, aperature and shutter speed. It
: was better than no image.

Fair enough, but that's not really the issue, is it? The question is whether
accepting the grain is better than applying noise reduction at the cost of a
corresponding reduction in sharpness. That's the usual tradeoff in low light,
high-ISO digital photography. And grain is counter-intuitive to the human eye;
loss of sharpness isn't.

Bob
 
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Robert Coe
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      01-10-2013
On Wed, 9 Jan 2013 10:16:48 -0800, Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com>
wrote:
: On 2013-01-09 08:48:28 -0800, Tony Cooper <> said:
:
: > http://www.pbase.com/shootin/street_photography
: >
: >
: > SavageDuck - "Cowboy Hat Man" is just kinda flat. The Duck should've
: > waited until the "Man on a Bench" turned a bit to the camera. A
: > profile could've worked. The "Juggler" is a good catch, but I'd bring
: > out the yellow of the object in the air. The image needs one of the
: > three objects up in the air, and the one that is kinda gets lost in
: > the background.
:
: Moments in time captured, and timing is everything for many street
: captures.
:
: At the farmers' market in Paso Robles, it was quite early and even
: though I got few shots there, the guy in the hat seemed to be better
: than the crazy woman riding a mobility scooter, who kept yelling,
: "Why are you taking pictures?" at me.
: < https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1295663/Fil...NC_5407-Ew.jpg >

I believe the best defense is to listen attentively to her question and then
reply sympathetically in the imaginary language of your choice.

Bob
 
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Peter
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      01-10-2013
On 1/9/2013 9:33 PM, Robert Coe wrote:
> On Wed, 09 Jan 2013 21:18:06 -0500, Peter <> wrote:
> : On 1/9/2013 11:48 AM, Tony Cooper wrote:
> :
> : <snip>
> : >
> : > Peter Newman - "Almost Off" is very much South Beach, but not much
> : > "Street". I like "Pick a Winner", but I'm not keen on that much
> : > grain. Good composition and subject choice. Ditto for all comments
> : > when looking at "The Loser".
> : >
> :
> : Thanks for your comment.
> : Unfortunately, I too would have liked a little less grain, but shooting
> : conditions prevailed. Look at the ISO, aperature and shutter speed. It
> : was better than no image.
>
> Fair enough, but that's not really the issue, is it? The question is whether
> accepting the grain is better than applying noise reduction at the cost of a
> corresponding reduction in sharpness. That's the usual tradeoff in low light,
> high-ISO digital photography. And grain is counter-intuitive to the human eye;
> loss of sharpness isn't.
>


You are right. but, that is a decision for the photographer to make.
Having made it, I submitted the images to the SI for evaluation of their
comments. In this case the mandate also specified only minor
photoshopping. I felt that use of NR wold have violated the mandate.


--
PeterN
 
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Peter
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      01-10-2013
On 1/9/2013 9:39 PM, Robert Coe wrote:

>[snip]<
>
> I believe the best defense is to listen attentively to her question and then
> reply sympathetically in the imaginary language of your choice.
>

Sometimes saying nothing is best.
While wearing shorts my wife and I visited her aunt, who is in an
assisted living facility. Her aunt was showing us the dinning room. As
we walked in, on of the residents yelled at me: "NO SHORTS ALLOWED IN
THE DINING ROOM.":

My first instinct was to say: "OH!" and drop my shorts on the spot.

Second choice was to deny I was wearing shorts, which would have quickly
changed the focus of the discussion,

I Took choice No. 3 and quietly, with phoney regrets, opted out of the
tour of the dinning room.


--
PeterN
 
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Robert Coe
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      01-10-2013
On Wed, 09 Jan 2013 21:54:31 -0500, Peter <> wrote:
: On 1/9/2013 9:33 PM, Robert Coe wrote:
: > On Wed, 09 Jan 2013 21:18:06 -0500, Peter <> wrote:
: > : On 1/9/2013 11:48 AM, Tony Cooper wrote:
: > :
: > : <snip>
: > : >
: > : > Peter Newman - "Almost Off" is very much South Beach, but not much
: > : > "Street". I like "Pick a Winner", but I'm not keen on that much
: > : > grain. Good composition and subject choice. Ditto for all comments
: > : > when looking at "The Loser".
: > : >
: > :
: > : Thanks for your comment.
: > : Unfortunately, I too would have liked a little less grain, but shooting
: > : conditions prevailed. Look at the ISO, aperature and shutter speed. It
: > : was better than no image.
: >
: > Fair enough, but that's not really the issue, is it? The question is whether
: > accepting the grain is better than applying noise reduction at the cost of a
: > corresponding reduction in sharpness. That's the usual tradeoff in low light,
: > high-ISO digital photography. And grain is counter-intuitive to the human eye;
: > loss of sharpness isn't.
: >
:
: You are right. but, that is a decision for the photographer to make.
: Having made it, I submitted the images to the SI for evaluation of their
: comments. In this case the mandate also specified only minor
: photoshopping. I felt that use of NR wold have violated the mandate.

You're right, almost by definition, about the photographer's artistic license.
But NR can be preset in any modern camera. Assuming you shoot in RAW, which
I'm sure you do, all you're doing when you play with the NR is homing in on
the right initial setting. I can't imagine how that violates the mandate.

Bob
 
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Peter
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      01-10-2013
On 1/9/2013 10:04 PM, Robert Coe wrote:
> On Wed, 09 Jan 2013 21:54:31 -0500, Peter <> wrote:
> : On 1/9/2013 9:33 PM, Robert Coe wrote:
> : > On Wed, 09 Jan 2013 21:18:06 -0500, Peter <> wrote:
> : > : On 1/9/2013 11:48 AM, Tony Cooper wrote:
> : > :
> : > : <snip>
> : > : >
> : > : > Peter Newman - "Almost Off" is very much South Beach, but not much
> : > : > "Street". I like "Pick a Winner", but I'm not keen on that much
> : > : > grain. Good composition and subject choice. Ditto for all comments
> : > : > when looking at "The Loser".
> : > : >
> : > :
> : > : Thanks for your comment.
> : > : Unfortunately, I too would have liked a little less grain, but shooting
> : > : conditions prevailed. Look at the ISO, aperature and shutter speed. It
> : > : was better than no image.
> : >
> : > Fair enough, but that's not really the issue, is it? The question is whether
> : > accepting the grain is better than applying noise reduction at the cost of a
> : > corresponding reduction in sharpness. That's the usual tradeoff in low light,
> : > high-ISO digital photography. And grain is counter-intuitive to the human eye;
> : > loss of sharpness isn't.
> : >
> :
> : You are right. but, that is a decision for the photographer to make.
> : Having made it, I submitted the images to the SI for evaluation of their
> : comments. In this case the mandate also specified only minor
> : photoshopping. I felt that use of NR wold have violated the mandate.
>
> You're right, almost by definition, about the photographer's artistic license.
> But NR can be preset in any modern camera. Assuming you shoot in RAW, which
> I'm sure you do, all you're doing when you play with the NR is homing in on
> the right initial setting. I can't imagine how that violates the mandate.
>


Yes it can.
However, I usually do my NR in post. One of the drawbacks of shooting
with large files is that any in camera processing slows down my frame
rate. Not asking for sympathy, just explaining my choices.


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PeterN
 
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Tony Cooper
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      01-10-2013
On Wed, 09 Jan 2013 22:18:18 -0500, Peter <>
wrote:

>On 1/9/2013 10:04 PM, Robert Coe wrote:
>> On Wed, 09 Jan 2013 21:54:31 -0500, Peter <> wrote:
>> : On 1/9/2013 9:33 PM, Robert Coe wrote:
>> : > On Wed, 09 Jan 2013 21:18:06 -0500, Peter <> wrote:
>> : > : On 1/9/2013 11:48 AM, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> : > :
>> : > : <snip>
>> : > : >
>> : > : > Peter Newman - "Almost Off" is very much South Beach, but not much
>> : > : > "Street". I like "Pick a Winner", but I'm not keen on that much
>> : > : > grain. Good composition and subject choice. Ditto for all comments
>> : > : > when looking at "The Loser".
>> : > : >
>> : > :
>> : > : Thanks for your comment.
>> : > : Unfortunately, I too would have liked a little less grain, but shooting
>> : > : conditions prevailed. Look at the ISO, aperature and shutter speed. It
>> : > : was better than no image.
>> : >
>> : > Fair enough, but that's not really the issue, is it? The question is whether
>> : > accepting the grain is better than applying noise reduction at the cost of a
>> : > corresponding reduction in sharpness. That's the usual tradeoff in low light,
>> : > high-ISO digital photography. And grain is counter-intuitive to the human eye;
>> : > loss of sharpness isn't.
>> : >
>> :
>> : You are right. but, that is a decision for the photographer to make.
>> : Having made it, I submitted the images to the SI for evaluation of their
>> : comments. In this case the mandate also specified only minor
>> : photoshopping. I felt that use of NR wold have violated the mandate.
>>
>> You're right, almost by definition, about the photographer's artistic license.
>> But NR can be preset in any modern camera. Assuming you shoot in RAW, which
>> I'm sure you do, all you're doing when you play with the NR is homing in on
>> the right initial setting. I can't imagine how that violates the mandate.
>>

>
>Yes it can.
>However, I usually do my NR in post. One of the drawbacks of shooting
>with large files is that any in camera processing slows down my frame
>rate. Not asking for sympathy, just explaining my choices.


I liked the subject matter and the composition, but would have liked a
little less grain in the photos. That's not, in my opinion, being too
critical.

I don't see that running them through a program like Noiseware is
excessive post.

This whole issue of how much post is allowed is a mare's nest. The
Duck uses LR pre-sets to convert from color to black & white. (A step
that I feel is perfectly legitimate) Who knows how many steps there
are in that action-like massage of the image?

Some people might be using Topaz, OnOne, or other Nik plug-ins. Just
because the processing is a single click, instead of multiple
adjustment layers, doesn't mean it's a single step.

By excessive manipulation, I think only of adding or removing major
elements from the scene. Now if it turns out that the bra was removed
from that South Beachette by Photoshop, *that's* excessive.

Here's a shot I took when we went down to South Beach:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/uzbgmcluvp...-10-16-029.jpg




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Tony Cooper, Orlando FL
 
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