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A C program

 
 
Greg Martin
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      10-30-2012
On 12-10-30 10:49 AM, tom st denis wrote:
> On Oct 30, 1:42 pm, Ben Bacarisse <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>> Using yourself as an example is wrong unless you consider yourself just
>> about the least talented programmer who ever benefited from studying
>> programing. I suspect you had an average or above average talent for
>> programming, which means that there are thousands and thousands of less
>> talented programmers who, every year, study programming a benefited form
>> it.

>
> This guy isn't creating a complicated data compression scheme or
> writing a schedule for a pre-emptive OS. It's converting binary to
> decimal. It's about as basic as it gets. If this sort of problem
> challenges him/her so much that they can't even post their [failed]
> attempt at solving it ... they really need to think hard about the
> industry they're in.
>
> Worse, if the guy didn't even bother trying and is just looking for a
> free ride they should do everyone a favour and step down. Leave room
> in the programme for people who actually want to try.
>


The problem with judgements made on a limited sample of data is that
they are frequently informed by bias. The OP may be as you suggest,
though one doesn't have to think to hard to come up with other
possibilities.

We don't know that he didn't try, only that he didn't post an attempt.
 
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Ben Bacarisse
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      10-30-2012
tom st denis <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:

> On Oct 30, 1:28*pm, Ben Bacarisse <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>> tom st denis <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:
>> > On Oct 30, 11:42*am, Ben Bacarisse <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>> >> tom st denis <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:

>>
>> >> > On Oct 23, 11:54*am, Nikhil Joshi
>> >> > <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>> >> >> write a program to calculate decimal number from binary number?

>>
>> >> > I'mma gonna go beyond what the other people wrote and just say this.

>>
>> >> > Drop out of whatever program you are in now. *If this sort of program
>> >> > stumps you you have no business studying computer science nor software
>> >> > development. *This is the equivalent of a math major asking us to help
>> >> > them solve the matrix

>>
>> >> I may have missed some of this thread, but how do you know the OP is a
>> >> CS major? *I was quite good at academic CS, but there was a time when I
>> >> did not know how to do this.

>>
>> > This is clearly a homework question of some sort given the lack of
>> > details other than a fairly obvious problem statement that came from a
>> > lab somewhere.

>>
>> Yes it is. *I don't see how that relates to my message.

>
> Even if the problem were challenging [which I maintain it is not] the
> very lack of effort on their part should be a sufficient strike
> against their character.


Not relevant to my point. You did read my message? I was just asking
how you know they are studying at a level where asking this means they
should drop out now. They may be 8 and only just less talented than
your were at 8. They may be 53 and studying programing after decades
of being a simultaneous translator at the UN. They may know a method
but be at a loss how to start doing it in C. There are countless
mitigating circumstances that would mean that it's inappropriate to
swear at them and tell them to drop out now.

Anyway, I was only asking what else you maybe knew that might justify
your extreme position.

--
Ben.
 
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James Kuyper
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      10-30-2012
On 10/30/2012 01:26 PM, tom st denis wrote:
> On Oct 30, 12:57�pm, James Kuyper <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>> On 10/30/2012 12:38 PM, tom st denis wrote:
>>
>>> On Oct 30, 12:13 pm, "BartC" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>>> "tom st denis" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in messagenews:(E-Mail Removed)...

>>
>>>>> This is the equivalent of a math major asking us to help
>>>>> them solve the matrix

>>
>>>>> [ 2 1 ]
>>>>> [ 1 1 ]

>>
>>>> What's the answer?

>>
>>> R1-R2 and then R2-R1.

>>
>> You haven't defined what R1 and R2 refer to, nor what those expressions
>> mean.

>
> Row 1 and Row 2 ... are you really this dense?
>
>>> So x = 1 and y = 1 in this linear system.

>>
>> Nor have you defined what x and y refer to.

>
> [2x 1y][3]
> [1x 1y][2]
>
> Whatever, you're missing the point.


No - I understand precisely the point you were trying to make. I'm
pointing out that you expressed it badly.

> ... Usually if I say "produce a
> solution for this matrix" it means the program [or steps] required to
> reduce it to REF.


Well, no, it doesn't - that's my point. It doesn't actually mean
anything. A matrix doesn't have a solution.

An equation containing a matrix might (or might not) have a solution. If
you have A*x=b, and A is a scalar, such as 5, you can say "solve for x
in terms of b, and that's meaningful (unless A==0). You can also say
"solve A", but that's not meaningful. If A is a matrix, like the one you
gave above, and x and b are column vectors, you can also solve for x in
terms of b (unless det(A)==0), but it's meaningless to ask someone to
say "solve A", for exactly the same reason that it's meaningless to ask
them to "solve A" when A == 5.
You can ask them to invert A; if A is 5, that's just 1/5. If A is a
matrix, that's more complicated; but that's not the same as asking them
to "solve A".
--
James Kuyper
 
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tom st denis
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      10-30-2012
On Oct 30, 2:30*pm, James Kuyper <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> On 10/30/2012 01:26 PM, tom st denis wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 30, 12:57 pm, James Kuyper <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> >> On 10/30/2012 12:38 PM, tom st denis wrote:

>
> >>> On Oct 30, 12:13 pm, "BartC" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> >>>> "tom st denis" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in messagenews:(E-Mail Removed)...

>
> >>>>> This is the equivalent of a math major asking us to help
> >>>>> them solve the matrix

>
> >>>>> [ 2 1 ]
> >>>>> [ 1 1 ]

>
> >>>> What's the answer?

>
> >>> R1-R2 and then R2-R1.

>
> >> You haven't defined what R1 and R2 refer to, nor what those expressions
> >> mean.

>
> > Row 1 and Row 2 ... are you really this dense?

>
> >>> So x = 1 and y = 1 in this linear system.

>
> >> Nor have you defined what x and y refer to.

>
> > [2x 1y][3]
> > [1x 1y][2]

>
> > Whatever, you're missing the point.

>
> No - I understand precisely the point you were trying to make. I'm
> pointing out that you expressed it badly.
>
> > ... *Usually if I say "produce a
> > solution for this matrix" it means the program [or steps] required to
> > reduce it to REF.

>
> Well, no, it doesn't - that's my point. It doesn't actually mean
> anything. A matrix doesn't have a solution.
>
> An equation containing a matrix might (or might not) have a solution. If
> you have A*x=b, and A is a scalar, such as 5, you can say "solve for x
> in terms of b, and that's meaningful (unless A==0). You can also say
> "solve A", but that's not meaningful. If A is a matrix, like the one you
> gave above, and x and b are column vectors, you can also solve for x in
> terms of b (unless det(A)==0), but it's meaningless to ask someone to
> say "solve A", for exactly the same reason that it's meaningless to ask
> them to "solve A" when A == 5.
> You can ask them to invert A; if A is 5, that's just 1/5. If A is a
> matrix, that's more complicated; but that's not the same as asking them
> to "solve A".


If you're going to ignore what I write why did you reply?

I gave a perfectly good example of using that terminology [static
matrices] which you ignored to drone on about some off-topic math
related quibble.

Tom
 
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James Kuyper
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      10-30-2012
On 10/30/2012 05:47 PM, tom st denis wrote:
> If you're going to ignore what I write why did you reply?


I only ignored the parts that were irrelevant to the point of my reply,
such as the details of how to solve the equations that you didn't
actually specify should be solved. My comments were not about the
techniques for solving such equations, which I'm quite familiar with,
but with your failure to correctly describe an equation in need of solution.

I'm in rough agreement with your assessment of the inappropriateness of
the original question - I just wish you'd taken the trouble to state
your example in a way that actually made sense. However, I do think
you've overreacted. It's possible that he's too lazy to make any attempt
to solve it himself, but it's also possible that he has no clue how to
even get started on it. That could be because he's not competent to
pursue a career in computer programming; but it could also be that he
just hasn't had a couple of key insights yet, that will seem blindingly
obvious in retrospect when he reaches the same point in his career that
you've reached in yours. They might even seem so obvious that he might
not even remember not understanding them, just as you don't remember
being unable to understand them. You don't have enough information to
justify ruling out that possibility.

I used to tutor for a living, and I found that students each have their
own strengths and weaknesses; you can't just say "this is simpler than
that, so anyone who has trouble understanding this could never
understand that". It's just not that simple. For example, in your case,
solving linear equations is simple, but apparently you've not yet
mastered even the very basics of stating a problem that requires the use
of those skill to solve. That requires skill with English at least as
much as it does with mathematics.

> I gave a perfectly good example of using that terminology [static
> matrices].


More accurately, you gave an imperfect example of misusing that terminology.
--
James Kuyper
 
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Rui Maciel
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      11-01-2012
tom st denis wrote:

> Drop out of whatever program you are in now. If this sort of program
> stumps you you have no business studying computer science nor software
> development.


C is taught in courses other than CS or anything related to software
development. I wouldn't be surprised if nowadays there were more C courses
being taught in non-CS degrees than in CS ones.


Rui Maciel
 
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Rui Maciel
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      11-01-2012
tom st denis wrote:

> This guy isn't creating a complicated data compression scheme or
> writing a schedule for a pre-emptive OS.


Irrelevant. You are esssentially complaining that someone who has just
started learning how to walk can't run a marathon or the 100 meter dash. In
fact, your own complaint shows off some ignorance, because there is a
significant difference between learning a language and expressing ideas in
it.

So, try not to bite the newcomers.


Rui Maciel
 
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Rui Maciel
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      11-01-2012
tom st denis wrote:

> This is the equivalent of a math major asking us to help
> them solve the matrix
>
> [ 2 1 ]
> [ 1 1 ]


You got to be kidding.


Rui Maciel
 
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Rui Maciel
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      11-01-2012
tom st denis wrote:

> Whatever, you're missing the point.


I don't believe James Kuyper missed the point. You, on the other hand,
failed to catch the irony of your own complaint.


Rui Maciel
 
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Bill Cunningham
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      11-04-2012
Don't feed the trolls


 
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