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Re: Battery question

 
 
gregz
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      10-16-2012
nospam <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> In article <k5i6gv$ien$(E-Mail Removed)>, philo <(E-Mail Removed)>
> wrote:
>
>>>> I once had a camera that took 4 AA batteries.
>>>> In the long run it was a bad idea as I was constantly replacing them and
>>>> of course paying for them each time. Though the camera could also use
>>>> NiCads, the charge only lasted a very short time so were useless.
>>>
>>> nicads haven't been around in ages. you must mean nimh, which work
>>> quite well.
>>>
>>> alkaline aa batteries, on the other hand, don't work well at all.

>>
>> Really it was Nicads I was talking about...of course I had that camera
>> over ten years ago. I still have it a Kodak 1MP. You can drop it on
>> cement and it just bounces!

>
> ten years ago is a long time ago, and even then, nimh was the standard.
>
>> I found that alkaline batteries worked well enough but as I said
>> you have to keep buying them all the time so in the long run are more
>> expensive.

>
> alkaline batteries don't last very long because of the high current
> demands of a digital camera,
>
> nimh and lithium aa batteries can source a lot more current and work a
> *lot* better. lithium aa batteries are not that cheap but their shelf
> life is 10 years or more and make for an excellent backup for when the
> rechargeables are exhausted.


Nicads can offer more current output than nimh, unless things have changed
in the last 10 years.

Greg
 
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gregz
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      10-16-2012
philo <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> On 10/15/2012 6:49 PM, nospam wrote:
>> In article <k5i6gv$ien$(E-Mail Removed)>, philo <(E-Mail Removed)>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>>> I once had a camera that took 4 AA batteries.
>>>>> In the long run it was a bad idea as I was constantly replacing them and
>>>>> of course paying for them each time. Though the camera could also use
>>>>> NiCads, the charge only lasted a very short time so were useless.
>>>>
>>>> nicads haven't been around in ages. you must mean nimh, which work
>>>> quite well.
>>>>
>>>> alkaline aa batteries, on the other hand, don't work well at all.
>>>
>>> Really it was Nicads I was talking about...of course I had that camera
>>> over ten years ago. I still have it a Kodak 1MP. You can drop it on
>>> cement and it just bounces!

>>
>> ten years ago is a long time ago, and even then, nimh was the standard.
>>
>>> I found that alkaline batteries worked well enough but as I said
>>> you have to keep buying them all the time so in the long run are more
>>> expensive.

>>
>> alkaline batteries don't last very long because of the high current
>> demands of a digital camera,

>
> Plus they have a nominal voltage of only 1.2 v
>>


More like 1.5 volts.

Greg

>> nimh and lithium aa batteries can source a lot more current and work a
>> *lot* better. lithium aa batteries are not that cheap but their shelf
>> life is 10 years or more and make for an excellent backup for when the
>> rechargeables are exhausted.
>>

>
> Yep

 
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jdanield
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      10-16-2012
Le 16/10/2012 02:07, nospam a écrit :

> alkaline batteries are 1.5v when new. nicad and nimh batteries are 1.2v
> when fully charged. the difference almost always does not matter.
>

It can matter a lot. I had once device that didn't work at all with
rechargeables

right today, Shure pro mikes do not accept 9V rechargeables

jdd
 
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philo
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      10-16-2012
On 10/15/2012 08:31 PM, nospam wrote:
> In article <k5icb2$tct$(E-Mail Removed)>, philo <(E-Mail Removed)>
> wrote:
>
>>>>>>>> I found that alkaline batteries worked well enough but as I said
>>>>>>>> you have to keep buying them all the time so in the long run are more
>>>>>>>> expensive.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> alkaline batteries don't last very long because of the high current
>>>>>>> demands of a digital camera,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Plus they have a nominal voltage of only 1.2 v
>>>>>
>>>>> alkaline batteries are 1.5v when new. nicad and nimh batteries are 1.2v
>>>>> when fully charged. the difference almost always does not matter.
>>>>
>>>> Believe me it does.
>>>> The camera I had would not function under 4.5 volts or so
>>>
>>> 4x 1.2v nimh = 4.8v, so even with nimh, it should still have worked.
>>>
>>> nevertheless, i said 'almost always'. yours was one of the few devices
>>> where may have mattered. nearly all devices work just fine with nimh.

>>
>> Something went wrong here I was talking about Nicads not nimh

>
> they're both 1.2v.
>
>> At any rate, with an Alkaline battery the staring voltage would be 6
>> volts. It would take a while before the voltage would go down to 4.5 v

>
> not that long, depending on load.
>
>> With a set of Nicad batteries it did not take too long to go from 4.8 v
>> to 4.5 volts totally unacceptable life

>
> the discharge curve for nicad/nimh is flatter than alkaline and 4.5v =
> 1.12v/cell which is nearly discharged.
>


<snipped for brevity>

Discharge curves aside I am going by empirical results.

In my camera I could get a minimum of 20 photo shoots on a set of
alkaline batteries. With Nicads I could not necessarily even get through
one photo shoot.

I have some 12v equipment that has dummy/jumper batteries to be used
as the battery compartment takes either 8 alkaline or 10 nicads


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nospam
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      10-16-2012
In article <k5j109$rjj$(E-Mail Removed)>, jdanield <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> > alkaline batteries are 1.5v when new. nicad and nimh batteries are 1.2v
> > when fully charged. the difference almost always does not matter.
> >

> It can matter a lot. I had once device that didn't work at all with
> rechargeables


there is always an exception. as i said, it normally does not matter.

> right today, Shure pro mikes do not accept 9V rechargeables


a 9v rechargeable will be 7.2v, which is a big difference.
 
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nospam
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      10-16-2012
In article <k5jvj1$kp3$(E-Mail Removed)>, philo <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:

> Discharge curves aside I am going by empirical results.


your results can't change the battery chemistry.

> In my camera I could get a minimum of 20 photo shoots on a set of
> alkaline batteries.


you must mean 20 photos. alkaline batteries can't source enough current
to last very long in a digital camera. they're usually drained in a
very short time. they work well for low current applications, such as
radios, and in fact, once they're exhausted in a camera, you can put
them in a radio and continue to use them for quite a while.

> With Nicads I could not necessarily even get through
> one photo shoot.


then they're defective, which is not surprising since nimh replaced
nicads long ago. it's time to safely get rid of your nicads and replace
them with nimh.

> I have some 12v equipment that has dummy/jumper batteries to be used
> as the battery compartment takes either 8 alkaline or 10 nicads


8 alkalines = 12v
8 nicads = 9.6v; 10 nicads = 12v

9.6v versus 12v might make a difference, thus the additional 2
batteries to make it 12v.

most devices take 2 or 4 batteries, and the difference in voltage does
not matter.
 
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philo
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      10-16-2012
On 10/16/2012 11:23 AM, nospam wrote:
> In article <k5jvj1$kp3$(E-Mail Removed)>, philo <(E-Mail Removed)>
> wrote:
>
>> Discharge curves aside I am going by empirical results.

>
> your results can't change the battery chemistry.
>
>> In my camera I could get a minimum of 20 photo shoots on a set of
>> alkaline batteries.

>
> you must mean 20 photos. alkaline batteries can't source enough current
> to last very long in a digital camera. they're usually drained in a
> very short time. they work well for low current applications, such as
> radios, and in fact, once they're exhausted in a camera, you can put
> them in a radio and continue to use them for quite a while.
>
>> W





You are thinking of those (I believe now obsolete) standard carbon
batteries. I am talking about alkaline batteries.

Depending on the mfg they are approx the same ampere-hour as a nicad
though there is quite a bit of variance.


If two batteries have about the same amp-hour
it does not take a genius to know the ones that have a higher voltage
will produce more power


 
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nospam
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      10-16-2012
In article <k5koth$m5l$(E-Mail Removed)>, philo <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:

> >> Discharge curves aside I am going by empirical results.

> >
> > your results can't change the battery chemistry.
> >
> >> In my camera I could get a minimum of 20 photo shoots on a set of
> >> alkaline batteries.

> >
> > you must mean 20 photos. alkaline batteries can't source enough current
> > to last very long in a digital camera. they're usually drained in a
> > very short time. they work well for low current applications, such as
> > radios, and in fact, once they're exhausted in a camera, you can put
> > them in a radio and continue to use them for quite a while.

>
> You are thinking of those (I believe now obsolete) standard carbon
> batteries.


nope.

> I am talking about alkaline batteries.


so am i. in fact, i specifically said alkaline.

> Depending on the mfg they are approx the same ampere-hour as a nicad
> though there is quite a bit of variance.


alkaline batteries actually have much higher capacity than nicad and
they're comparable or a little higher than nimh, but as i said, they
can only realize that capacity at lower current draws. in a camera,
where current draw is high, alkaline won't last long, but in a radio,
where current draw is very low, alkaline will last quite a while.

> If two batteries have about the same amp-hour
> it does not take a genius to know the ones that have a higher voltage
> will produce more power


apparently it does, because the battery chemistry and specifically, its
internal resistance, makes a big difference.

<http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/rising_internal_resistance>
Alkaline, carbon-zinc and other primary batteries have a relatively
high internal resistance, and this limits its use to low-current
applications such as flashlights, remote controls, portable
entertainment devices and kitchen clocks. As these batteries
discharge, the resistance increases further. This explains the
relative short runtime when using alkaline cells in digital cameras.*
 
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philo
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      10-17-2012
On 10/16/2012 06:37 PM, nospam wrote:
> In article <k5koth$m5l$(E-Mail Removed)>, philo <(E-Mail Removed)>
> wrote:
>
>>>> Discharge curves aside I am going by empirical results.
>>>
>>> your results can't change the battery chemistry.
>>>
>>>> In my camera I could get a minimum of 20 photo shoots on a set of
>>>> alkaline batteries.
>>>
>>> you must mean 20 photos. alkaline batteries can't source enough current
>>> to last very long in a digital camera. they're usually drained in a
>>> very short time. they work well for low current applications, such as
>>> radios, and in fact, once they're exhausted in a camera, you can put
>>> them in a radio and continue to use them for quite a while.

>>
>> You are thinking of those (I believe now obsolete) standard carbon
>> batteries.

>
> nope.
>
>> I am talking about alkaline batteries.

>
> so am i. in fact, i specifically said alkaline.
>
>> Depending on the mfg they are approx the same ampere-hour as a nicad
>> though there is quite a bit of variance.

>
> alkaline batteries actually have much higher capacity than nicad and
> they're comparable or a little higher than nimh, but as i said, they
> can only realize that capacity at lower current draws. in a camera,
> where current draw is high, alkaline won't last long, but in a radio,
> where current draw is very low, alkaline will last quite a while.
>
>> If two batteries have about the same amp-hour
>> it does not take a genius to know the ones that have a higher voltage
>> will produce more power

>
> apparently it does, because the battery chemistry and specifically, its
> internal resistance, makes a big difference.
>
> <http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/rising_internal_resistance>
> Alkaline, carbon-zinc and other primary batteries have a relatively
> high internal resistance, and this limits its use to low-current
> applications such as flashlights, remote controls, portable
> entertainment devices and kitchen clocks. As these batteries
> discharge, the resistance increases further. This explains the
> relative short runtime when using alkaline cells in digital cameras.
>



Nice quote but I still live by what happens in the real world

--
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nospam
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      10-17-2012
In article <k5l7lb$gnm$(E-Mail Removed)>, philo <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:

> > <http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/rising_internal_resistance>
> > Alkaline, carbon-zinc and other primary batteries have a relatively
> > high internal resistance, and this limits its use to low-current
> > applications such as flashlights, remote controls, portable
> > entertainment devices and kitchen clocks. As these batteries
> > discharge, the resistance increases further. This explains the
> > relative short runtime when using alkaline cells in digital cameras.
> >

> Nice quote but I still live by what happens in the real world


what happens in the real world is exactly that quote. you *can't* get
around the laws of physics and chemistry.

replace your defective nicads with modern nimh batteries.
 
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