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Article on the future of Python

 
 
wxjmfauth@gmail.com
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      09-26-2012
Le mercredi 26 septembre 2012 09:23:47 UTC+2, Steven D'Aprano a écrit*:
> On Tue, 25 Sep 2012 23:35:39 -0700, wxjmfauth wrote:
>
>
>
> > Py 3.3 succeeded to somehow kill unicode and it has been transformed

>
> > into an "American" product for "American" users.

>
>
>

Steven,

you are correct. But the price you pay for this is extremely
high. Now, practically all characters are affected, espacially
those *in* the Basic *** Multilingual*** Plane, these characters
used by non "American" user (No offense here, I just use this
word for ascii/latin-1).

I'm ready to be considered as an idiot, but I'm not blind.
As soon as I tested these characters, Py3.3 performs really
badly. It seems to me it is legitimate to consider, there
is a serious problem here.

- I'm speaking about "language characters", one should speak
about "scripting characters".
- Obviously affected are not only the "language characters",
but all characters, typographical signs, polytonic Greek,
up to mathematical "Bold italic sans serif, Latin, uppercase",
logically because all the "code points" are equivalent.

Many people are commmenting, I have the feeling, I'm the only
one who tested this. It is not necessary to dive in the Python
code, understanding all this "characters stuff" is enough.

And I am sorry, just saying "if you are not happy, switch
back to Python 2.7 or use Ruby" (you know where you can
read it) is in my mind not a correct answer. It only
reflect a "yes, there is a problem, but..."

Do not worry about me, I attempt to keep a neutral eye.
It is my point of view (and facts). I will not open a blog
with a "Python blah, blah, blah".

jmf

> For the first time in Python's history, Python on 32-bit systems handles
>
> strings containing Supplementary Multilingual Plane characters correctly,
>
> and it does so without doubling or quadrupling the amount of memory every
>
> single string takes up.
>
>
>


 
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Dwight Hutto
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      09-26-2012
>>
>> they are written in themselves, using some clever bootstrapping
>>
>> techniques. C is neither the most powerful, the oldest, the best, or the
>>
>> most fundamental language around.

Would you recommend Assembly, because C just becomea macros of
Assembly, or better yet machine language, which is line for line
procedural Assembly for the processor instruction set working in line
with the OS..

--
Best Regards,
David Hutto
CEO: http://www.hitwebdevelopment.com
 
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Chris Angelico
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      09-26-2012
On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 7:31 PM, <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> you are correct. But the price you pay for this is extremely
> high. Now, practically all characters are affected, espacially
> those *in* the Basic *** Multilingual*** Plane, these characters
> used by non "American" user (No offense here, I just use this
> word for ascii/latin-1).
>
> I'm ready to be considered as an idiot, but I'm not blind.
> As soon as I tested these characters, Py3.3 performs really
> badly. It seems to me it is legitimate to consider, there
> is a serious problem here.


We've been over this thread. The only reason you're counting 3.3 as
worse is because you're comparing against a narrow build of Python
3.2. Narrow builds are **BUGGY** and this needed to be resolved.

When you compare against a wide build, semantics of 3.2 and 3.3 are
identical, and then - and ONLY then - can you sanely compare
performance. And 3.3 stacks up much better.

ChrisA
 
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Hannu Krosing
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      09-26-2012
On 09/26/2012 10:32 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> On 26/09/2012 05:10, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 10:54 AM, Steven D'Aprano
>> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>> SQL? ... it's time to sell your shares in Oracle.

>>
>> Ehh, I wouldn't be investing in Oracle, but that's more because I
>> think free RDBMSes like PostgreSQL outshine it. And this is even more
>> true of MS SQL Server - this last week I've been researching options
>> for moving work's services to the cloud, and SQL Server licenses cost
>> ridiculous amounts (per month or per hour); what do you get for that
>> money that you can't get from Postgres?
>>
>> ChrisA
>>

>
> Maybe true but do free RDBMes have the sales and marketing budgets
> that effectively shot down Ingres?
>

Nope. They don't have budget to shoot down Ingres.

Also, free RDBMs do not engage in dubious promise-and-dont-deliver-
then-ask-more-money sales policies that got Oracle kicked out of US
Government simplified buying processes.

You can get only so far using "sales". At some point you have to deliver.

Hannu

 
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wxjmfauth@gmail.com
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      09-26-2012
Le mercredi 26 septembre 2012 10:35:04 UTC+2, Mark Lawrence a écrit*:
> On 26/09/2012 07:35, http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed) wrote:
>
> >

>
> > Py 3.3 succeeded to somehow kill unicode and it has

>
> > been transformed into an "American" product for

>
> > "American" users.

>
> > jmf

>
> >

>
>
>
> Why do you keep repeating this rubbish when you've already been shot to
>
> pieces? Don't you know when it's time to make sure that you're safely
>
> strapped in and reach for and use the release button for the ejector
>
> seat. Further for somebody who is apparently up in the high tech world,
>
> why are you using a gmail account and hence sending garbage in more ways
>
> than one to mailing lists like this?
>
>
>
> --
>
> Cheers.
>
>
>
> Mark Lawrence.


At least when the others are sending a msg containing
non asii characters. I see them correctly.

When you send such a text, I'm only able to see
something like this (your_string):

>>> import fourbiunicode
>>> for c in your_string:

.... fourbiunicode.FrenchNames[c]
....
'LETTRE MINUSCULE LATINE TRÉMA'
"POINT D'INTERROGATION RENVERSÉ"
'FRACTION UN DEMI'

You have all the elements to reconstruct what is
happening. (Notice, I'm not a Unicode illiterate)

jmf


 
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wxjmfauth@gmail.com
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      09-26-2012
Le mercredi 26 septembre 2012 10:35:04 UTC+2, Mark Lawrence a écrit*:
> On 26/09/2012 07:35, (E-Mail Removed) wrote:
>
> >

>
> > Py 3.3 succeeded to somehow kill unicode and it has

>
> > been transformed into an "American" product for

>
> > "American" users.

>
> > jmf

>
> >

>
>
>
> Why do you keep repeating this rubbish when you've already been shot to
>
> pieces? Don't you know when it's time to make sure that you're safely
>
> strapped in and reach for and use the release button for the ejector
>
> seat. Further for somebody who is apparently up in the high tech world,
>
> why are you using a gmail account and hence sending garbage in more ways
>
> than one to mailing lists like this?
>
>
>
> --
>
> Cheers.
>
>
>
> Mark Lawrence.


At least when the others are sending a msg containing
non asii characters. I see them correctly.

When you send such a text, I'm only able to see
something like this (your_string):

>>> import fourbiunicode
>>> for c in your_string:

.... fourbiunicode.FrenchNames[c]
....
'LETTRE MINUSCULE LATINE TRÉMA'
"POINT D'INTERROGATION RENVERSÉ"
'FRACTION UN DEMI'

You have all the elements to reconstruct what is
happening. (Notice, I'm not a Unicode illiterate)

jmf


 
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wxjmfauth@gmail.com
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      09-26-2012
Le mercredi 26 septembre 2012 10:13:58 UTC+2, Terry Reedy a écrit*:
> On 9/26/2012 2:35 AM, (E-Mail Removed) wrote:
>
>
>
> > Py 3.3 succeeded to somehow kill unicode and it has

>
> > been transformed into an "American" product for

>
> > "American" users.

>
>
>
> Python 3.3 is the first version that handles the full unicode character
>
> set correctly on all platforms. If anything, it will make unicode more
>
> alive and Python better suited for international applications.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Terry Jan Reedy



Remember the TeX discussion a few days ago?

You are always selling the same argument.
Py3.3 is the only computer language I'm aware of which
is maltreating Unicode in such a way.

After all, if replacing a Nabla operator in a string take
10 times more times in Py33 than in Python32, it takes 10
times more . There is nothing more to say.

I proposed to make some tests with the characters
used by the IMPRIMERIE NATINALE", I can now suggest
to make some tests with random texts exceprt form
the "Guide du typographe romand".

What? Never heard from these? Do not worry too
much. The corporates (software producers) and
the foundries know these documents.

Finally, all in all, it's no a suprise, end users
are sticking with these products.

I'm not complaining, only disappointed.


jmf
(Time to go back to TeX)
 
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wxjmfauth@gmail.com
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      09-26-2012
Le mercredi 26 septembre 2012 10:13:58 UTC+2, Terry Reedy a écrit*:
> On 9/26/2012 2:35 AM, (E-Mail Removed) wrote:
>
>
>
> > Py 3.3 succeeded to somehow kill unicode and it has

>
> > been transformed into an "American" product for

>
> > "American" users.

>
>
>
> Python 3.3 is the first version that handles the full unicode character
>
> set correctly on all platforms. If anything, it will make unicode more
>
> alive and Python better suited for international applications.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Terry Jan Reedy



Remember the TeX discussion a few days ago?

You are always selling the same argument.
Py3.3 is the only computer language I'm aware of which
is maltreating Unicode in such a way.

After all, if replacing a Nabla operator in a string take
10 times more times in Py33 than in Python32, it takes 10
times more . There is nothing more to say.

I proposed to make some tests with the characters
used by the IMPRIMERIE NATINALE", I can now suggest
to make some tests with random texts exceprt form
the "Guide du typographe romand".

What? Never heard from these? Do not worry too
much. The corporates (software producers) and
the foundries know these documents.

Finally, all in all, it's no a suprise, end users
are sticking with these products.

I'm not complaining, only disappointed.


jmf
(Time to go back to TeX)
 
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Roy Smith
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      09-26-2012
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
Hannu Krosing <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> You can get only so far using "sales". At some point you have to deliver.


But, by that time, the guy who closed the sale has already cashed his
bonus check, bought his new BMW, and moved on to another company.

And around that time, some poor schmuck of a dev manager is telling his
team what the sales guy sold. And that they have 12 weeks to design,
build, and deliver it.
 
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Mark Lawrence
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      09-26-2012
On 26/09/2012 10:31, (E-Mail Removed) wrote:

>
> I'm ready to be considered as an idiot, but I'm not blind.


People here have seen enough of your writings to know that you're not an
idiot. I'm feeling far too polite right now to state what they actually
know about you.

> As soon as I tested these characters, Py3.3 performs really
> badly. It seems to me it is legitimate to consider, there
> is a serious problem here.


Your tests (for the lack of a better term) have been repeatedly shot to
pieces, refuted, you've shown nothing at all to indicate that Python 3.3
performs really badly.

>
> Many people are commmenting, I have the feeling, I'm the only
> one who tested this. It is not necessary to dive in the Python
> code, understanding all this "characters stuff" is enough.


Complete dross from a person who seems to know as much about the
combination of Python 3.3 and unicode as Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot
amongst others knew about human rights.

--
Cheers.

Mark Lawrence.

 
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